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On July 14 2016 19:06 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2016 11:07 Belisarius wrote:
They made it simple for wider appeal, and it seems to have worked. There's no way my wife would play actual pokemon battles on her phone, but she'll catch pidgeys quite happily while walking through the park.
I think the bigger problem is how grindy it gets at high levels. Unless they change something they're going to lose a lot of people once everyone gets past the initial capture-new-stuff phase.
At lv1, finding/catching a pidgey is exciting, rewarding and easy.
At lv20, finding/catching the exact same pidgey is now boring and grindy, but also far more difficult.
They've broken the basic link between effort and reward, and actively punish you for leveling up. From a game design perspective, I think that's a cardinal sin. Ingress was exactly like this. As you leveled up doing simple things became more and more difficult. It was so odd how that worked. Niantic was never really about super in depth game play. Might change later. My gripe about this game is the tracker. Like it makes no intuitive sense. I get how it works over all but tracking the same fucking thing for a long time for it to not even move on the tracking bar is infuriating. Then you have random shit just pop on top of you.... Like where were those?! I run every day and every day I throw 3 to 5 ten km egg into the incubator and hatch them with the run. I'll literally track one Pokémon and never find it because the tracker is so useless. I can run 3 km and have it not move aside from the random shit that pops up on top of me. Having a tracker based on relative distance from other Pokémon is stupid. It's extra stupid when it seems to arbitrarily choose what to track regardless of distance. I had a really elusive Kadabra I was tracking that I could not pin down. I had a squirtle I knew the exact location of. Explain to me why on earth the Squirtle always fell off the tracker while the Kadabra stayed on it....i don't understand. Like I did a 2km radius around the stupid squirtle. It makes no sense.
In addition to the previous post, the tracker will also "bug out" in the sense that pokemon will remain there with 3 footprints while they are long gone. If you suspect a pokemon should've updated and hasn't yet, restart your app to force an update to the nearby list.
I'm basically restarting this app every 2 minutes when i'm going on a pokemon hunt 
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Is there a faster way of restarting your App then to force it to stop and open it again/restarting ur phone?
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I'm on iOS and it's pretty quick. Just double tap the button, swipe the app up, then re-open it from home screen.
Don't know about Android.
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Same deal on Android, hit the app switch button then swipe it away and relaunch.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
I might be retarded but whats the app switch button.
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On July 14 2016 21:24 Kipsate wrote:
I might be retarded but whats the app switch button.
Depends on your phone. For the note phones it's the tactile button on the bottom of the phone. Hold the button and the list of apps come up for the app switch
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Ah, I wish you would have posted those blogs here/ on TL! There are a few things I'm confused about on both blogs... for example, you say:
It takes 3 pidgeys to force an evolution.
Thus, in addition to the 100 exp gained from a pidgey, each pidgey has an additional 500 / 3 exp benefit. All in all, a pidgey is worth 266 experience, and that is why pidgeys are so so so valuable in experience farming.
Isn't it 4 pidgey though, because you need a 4th pidgey to turn into the pidgeotto? And then you have some candy leftover, etc. If you catch exactly 3 pidgey, you only have enough candy for an evolution once you get rid of all your pidgey... and therefore you don't get the evolution bonus until you catch a 4th.
You do a lot of other mathematical modeling with similar assumptions, later in the blog, such as:
ratata: 25 candies needed to evolve, 6 ratatas are required to provide 24 ~ 25 candies. Thus, the evolution added exp for a ratata is 500 / 6 = 83. ratata is worth 183 experience
That makes me twitch a little (24 isn't 25, and you still need the 7th rattata to evolve into the raticate), as a lot of this isn't really accurate math. Regardless, farming pidgey is certainly a great way to gain exp., and this is useful even for beginners 
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On July 14 2016 21:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Ah, I wish you would have posted those blogs here/ on TL! There are a few things I'm confused about on both blogs... for example, you say: Show nested quote +It takes 3 pidgeys to force an evolution.
Thus, in addition to the 100 exp gained from a pidgey, each pidgey has an additional 500 / 3 exp benefit. All in all, a pidgey is worth 266 experience, and that is why pidgeys are so so so valuable in experience farming. Isn't it 4 pidgeys though, because you need a 4th pidgey to turn into the pidgeotto? And then you have some candy leftover, etc. If you catch exactly 3 pidgeys, you only have enough candy for an evolution once you get rid of all your pidgeys... and therefore you don't get the evolution bonus until you catch a 4th. You do a lot of other mathematical modeling with similar assumptions, later in the blog. Regardless, farming pidgey is certainly a great way to gain exp.
A Pidgey needs 12 candy, but the evolution itself gives 1 candy, and you can send the Pidgeotto home for an additional candy. So that's 10 candies needed, provided you have the 2 "initial candies" so to speak.
A Pidgey yields 4 candies if you catch + send home.
So 3 is correct. If you have 22/32/42 Pidgey candies, you can evolve 2/3/4 Pidgeys.
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On July 14 2016 21:53 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2016 21:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Ah, I wish you would have posted those blogs here/ on TL! There are a few things I'm confused about on both blogs... for example, you say: It takes 3 pidgeys to force an evolution.
Thus, in addition to the 100 exp gained from a pidgey, each pidgey has an additional 500 / 3 exp benefit. All in all, a pidgey is worth 266 experience, and that is why pidgeys are so so so valuable in experience farming. Isn't it 4 pidgeys though, because you need a 4th pidgey to turn into the pidgeotto? And then you have some candy leftover, etc. If you catch exactly 3 pidgeys, you only have enough candy for an evolution once you get rid of all your pidgeys... and therefore you don't get the evolution bonus until you catch a 4th. You do a lot of other mathematical modeling with similar assumptions, later in the blog. Regardless, farming pidgey is certainly a great way to gain exp. A Pidgey needs 12 candy, but the evolution itself gives 1 candy, and you can send the Pidgeotto home for an additional candy. So that's 10 candies needed, provided you have the 2 "initial candies" so to speak. A Pidgey yields 4 candies if you catch + send home. So 3 is correct. If you have 22/32/42 Pidgey candies, you can evolve 2/3/4 Pidgeys.
Well by your own admission, you only need 3 additional pidgey as long as you already have a pidgeotto from an earlier evolution (or, similarly, already have 1 pidgey/ pidgeot). So the first cycle you need 4 pidgey, and then the rest should be 3 *more* of the pidgey family.
If you currently have zero pokemon in the pidgey family, then you need to catch a 4th pidgey. (And make sure none of these pidgey family pokemon ever get stationed in gyms too, as they need to always be available for transfer!)
The rattata math is even worse though, as even with a previous first rattata or raticate, the numbers don't add up afaik.
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On July 14 2016 21:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2016 21:53 Laurens wrote:On July 14 2016 21:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Ah, I wish you would have posted those blogs here/ on TL! There are a few things I'm confused about on both blogs... for example, you say: It takes 3 pidgeys to force an evolution.
Thus, in addition to the 100 exp gained from a pidgey, each pidgey has an additional 500 / 3 exp benefit. All in all, a pidgey is worth 266 experience, and that is why pidgeys are so so so valuable in experience farming. Isn't it 4 pidgeys though, because you need a 4th pidgey to turn into the pidgeotto? And then you have some candy leftover, etc. If you catch exactly 3 pidgeys, you only have enough candy for an evolution once you get rid of all your pidgeys... and therefore you don't get the evolution bonus until you catch a 4th. You do a lot of other mathematical modeling with similar assumptions, later in the blog. Regardless, farming pidgey is certainly a great way to gain exp. A Pidgey needs 12 candy, but the evolution itself gives 1 candy, and you can send the Pidgeotto home for an additional candy. So that's 10 candies needed, provided you have the 2 "initial candies" so to speak. A Pidgey yields 4 candies if you catch + send home. So 3 is correct. If you have 22/32/42 Pidgey candies, you can evolve 2/3/4 Pidgeys. Well by your own admission, you only need 3 additional pidgey as long as you already have a pidgeotto from an earlier evolution (or, similarly, already have 1 pidgey/ pidgeot). So the first cycle you need 4 pidgey, and then the rest should be 3 *more* of the pidgey family. If you currently have zero pokemon in the pidgey family, then you need to catch a 4th pidgey. (And make sure none of these pidgey family pokemon ever get stationed in gyms too, as they need to always be available for transfer!)
Things like this is best proved by the "accounting argument" used in analyzing amortized cost.
1) Let's suppose you have 3 pidgeys, that's a total of 3 pidgeys and 9 candies so far.
2) You come up to me and say "good sir, can I borrow a pigeotto?"
3) I say "sure, but make sure to give it back!"
4) You now have 1 pigeotto, 3 pidgeys, and 9 candies
5) You sell the pigeoto, sell 2 pidgeys. You now have 12 candies and 1 pidgey
6) You evolve the pidgey, obtaining 500 exp, and getting 1 candy for evolving, and obtain a pigeotto
7) You give the pigeotto back to me, along with an extra candy for the payment
8) You catch 3 more pidgeys -> go to 1)
if you want to read more:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accounting_method
So roughly speaking, you need 3 pidgeys to force 1 evolution. WITH the bonus of 1 candy on top!
this 1 extra candy is ignored for my analysis on both blogs, it's too tedius, but i can take a crack here:
Notice how we get 1 extra candy each time we do this, let's call it proccess A (the step 1 to 7). So imagine we do it 8 times, we have as initial condition:
1 pigeotto, 8 candies
I can then basically use those, along with 1 pidgey and 3 candies, to make the pigeotto and give it back. Now we have the initial condition of
1 pigeotto 1 candy again.
so basically every 8 times of a proccess A you get to evolve with only 1 pidgey instead of 3. in 8 times of proccess A, you used up 24 pidgeys
so overall u'd be 25 pidgeys for 9 evolutions
so the actual exp / pidgey for evolving is actually 180, a little big higher than then 166 I've been using.
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I think it's fair to assume that everyone has 2 spare Pidgey candy lying around... 
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You can't count the pidgeotto's transfer candy before you have a pidgeotto, and you're still down 1-2 rattata candy each time anyway, but either way I appreciate the modeling you've done, evan I understand what's important is the general estimations.
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On July 14 2016 22:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
You can't count the pidgeotto's transfer candy before you have a pidgeotto
That's not happening though.
Assume you have 1 Pidgey candy lying around.
Catch 3 Pidgeys, transfer 2, we now have 12 Pidgey candy and 1 Pidgey.
Evolve the Pidgey, send the Pidgeotto home, we now have 2 Pidgey candy and 0 Pidgeys.
Catch 3 Pidgeys, transfer 2, we now have 13 Pidgey candy and 1 Pidgey.
Evolve the Pidgey, send the Pidgeotto home, we now have 3 Pidgey candy and 0 Pidgeys.
...
*some cycles later*
Catch 3 Pidgeys, transfer ONE, we now have 22 Pidgey candy and TWO Pidgeys.
Evolve one Pidgey, send the Pidgeotto home, we now have 12 Pidgey candy and 1 Pidgey.
Evolve the second Pidgey, send the Pidgeotto home, we now have 2 Pidgey candy and 0 Pidgeys.
*Repeat*
TLDR: Assuming you have 1 Pidgey candy at the start, three Pidgeys is always enough to evolve a Pidgey.
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On July 14 2016 22:34 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2016 22:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
You can't count the pidgeotto's transfer candy before you have a pidgeotto That's not happening though. Assume you have 1 Pidgey candy lying around. Catch 3 Pidgeys, transfer 2, we now have 12 Pidgey candy and 1 Pidgey. Evolve the Pidgey, send the Pidgeotto home, we now have 2 Pidgey candy and 0 Pidgeys. Catch 3 Pidgeys, transfer 2, we now have 13 Pidgey candy and 1 Pidgey. Evolve the Pidgey, send the Pidgeotto home, we now have 3 Pidgey candy and 0 Pidgeys. ... *some cycles later* Catch 3 Pidgeys, transfer ONE, we now have 22 Pidgey candy and TWO Pidgeys. Evolve one Pidgey, send the Pidgeotto home, we now have 12 Pidgey candy and 1 Pidgey. Evolve the second Pidgey, send the Pidgeotto home, we now have 2 Pidgey candy and 0 Pidgeys. *Repeat* TLDR: Assuming you have 1 Pidgey candy at the start, three Pidgeys is always enough to evolve a Pidgey.
i don't think he's getting it it's fine.
@darkplasmaball: no offense, i'm serious T__T
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On July 14 2016 22:34 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2016 22:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
You can't count the pidgeotto's transfer candy before you have a pidgeotto That's not happening though. Assume you have 1 Pidgey candy lying around. Catch 3 Pidgeys, transfer 2, we now have 12 Pidgey candy and 1 Pidgey. Evolve the Pidgey, send the Pidgeotto home, we now have 2 Pidgey candy and 0 Pidgeys. Catch 3 Pidgeys, transfer 2, we now have 13 Pidgey candy and 1 Pidgey. Evolve the Pidgey, send the Pidgeotto home, we now have 3 Pidgey candy and 0 Pidgeys. ... *some cycles later* Catch 3 Pidgeys, transfer ONE, we now have 22 Pidgey candy and TWO Pidgeys. Evolve one Pidgey, send the Pidgeotto home, we now have 12 Pidgey candy and 1 Pidgey. Evolve the second Pidgey, send the Pidgeotto home, we now have 2 Pidgey candy and 0 Pidgeys. *Repeat* TLDR: Assuming you have 1 Pidgey candy at the start, three Pidgeys is always enough to evolve a Pidgey.
That's exactly what I've been saying The assumption that you already have a pidgey candy is necessary to only need 3 additional pidgey and not a fourth, but you can't get a first pidgey candy without first catching a previous pidgey or transferring a previous pidgey family member. So from zero (which is where everyone starts), you need a fourth pidgey; after that, it's fine.
The shorthand version: evan said that the number of pidgey you need is 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, ... I said that it's 4, 3, 3, 3, 3, ... The response was "Well if you already have a pidgey candy, then it's 3, 3, 3, 3, ..." which is fine and all, but the only way to "already have a pidgey candy" is to have a first pidgey before the 3, which means the first 3 is really a 4. Once you have a pidgey evolution or a first pidgey, then obviously you only need 3 more
I don't think the rattata math works at all though, as it's off by two instead of one iirc, so even transferring one rattata/ raticate isn't good enough to keep the cycle going.
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hmm i never thought of pidgeys as valuable like that. ive got like 20 of them, should be a nice xp boost.
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I don't see the flaw in DPB's analysis.....so catch them pidgey's y'all.
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Aw that sucks 
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EPT
