I've got two falco mains at my office that I'm playing against consistently - pretty much every single day I'm facing these guys, we're all pretty serious about improving, and the better we've all become technically the harder and harder this matchup has become for me as their shine / dair combos get more precise I feel like my neutral game has evaporated.
I'll try and get some footage in here for my specific problems but to make this more general for any Sheik players out there - does anyone with a solid level of skill know how they are approaching this matchup?
In general, I use M2K as sort of what sheik players should strive to be. While he plays a healthy chunk of the top 4 in the game (which can make looking up M2K's sheik vs. falco matches difficult), sheik is almost definitely the one he uses most. The most important thing he does is pretty simple: punish as hard as you can, because you can stretch punishes to incredible levels against falco. Tech chasing with d-throw can be really damaging, and if you miss a grab/jab reset, her dash attack is still a catch-all, because in tech chases, falco does not do wholly well. More importantly, though, is offstage control; whereas falco is barely fighting to survive offstage, sheik has more than enough tools and tricks in her bag to make him stay out there. Something as simple as an f-tilt to an f-air on a recovering falco can be a kill. While you still have to be a bit more patient in neutral -- falco IS falco on-stage, after all -- you get a lot more leeway to do damage once you push an advantage.
Really appreciate the answer! The idea that its natural to have a tougher time in neutral but excel in punishing is comforting because it conforms to what I've seen happen, I guess I just need better concepts for minimizing the damage I am taking because I do feel comfortable (at least against the opponents I'm playing) with punishing once I get something going.
Some specific questions: Am I generally approaching with shield cancel grab? Am I approaching at all?
What am I following a dthrow with ? Even if I tech chase correctly I feel like the momentum is flipping back on me half the time if he shines
Good ways to rack up % at 0-50%?
If he does get a combo started (Shine into Dair for example) am I just trying to get the fuck away with my DI or is there anything I can do (nair etc) to turn it around?
A few advices: -Falcos neutral game is incredible strong. If you aren't much better than the falco you will most likely lose it. So, like already said above, you really have to make the most of your punishes and edgeguards to win vs falco. -Powershielding !!! If you can hit it quite frequently it's really good vs falcos laser game. Most falcos will just spam lasers all day if you don't do anything about it, so if you get a powershield you can often convert into a grab or something. If they just stop lasering all together, it's also good for you -if you have the lead you can try to camp a little bit (if it suits your style). Sheik's needles and shino stalls are the really good tools here. Even if falcos neutral game is godlike, his recovery is one of the worst in the game, so if you are patient and force them to approach while at the edge you can get some really easy gimps -If you send falco offstage and he tries to recovery with up-b while he's still pretty close to the stage(this will happen most often when he's a little bit under the stage) , try to gimp him with a fair. Just run of the stage, fastfall, fair falco out of his up-b and recover, or if he's a little higher double-jump, then fair. Your can get some really easy kills with fair-gimps, if you know, when you have enough time and the right positioning to pull them off. -Good falcos will mix up their recovery with illusion/shortened illusions and different angels of up-b. If you are not fast enough to gimp with an fair, try to cover as many recovery options of him with a bair. Most players also have a habit with their recovery, so try learning it and cover the options the falco-player uses most often -Sheiks Nair out of shield is pretty good at countering falcos pressure. If you know the timings of the attacks he uses ( for example something like shffld dair to shine etc.) you can nair out of shield in the right moment to break out of his pressure
theres like 3 sheiks in michigan so i dont have any high level matchup experience vs sheik, but from 0-50% you really need to grab falco. Otherwise he will crouch cancel and combo you.
you can boost grab to increase the range, shield cancelled grab is more of a brawl thing, it doesnt work in melee. If you tech chase the downthrow correctly you have a few different options out of it. If you see him consistently shining you after your techchases you can wait right next to him for him to shine then punish it with anything. Good options out of a down grab are are dash attack and upsmash, assuming you don't regrab him, which is good too. falcos will try to roll towards the stage because if you get them off the stage they dont have any good recovery options.
My friend who was trying to teach me sheik would just powershield my lasers then 0-death tech chase me until i stopped getting grabbed.
If falco starts a combo you want to di away. He'll be able to do much more damage to you if you don't. I dont know if you can nair out of his combos at higher % but assuming you can, I would dair you faster or bair you to get you off the stage, so it doenst matter.
On March 19 2014 10:35 oscar62 wrote: nair oos is god vs. mediocre shield pressure
so much this. I hate missing an l-cancel as falco and getting hit with nair oos
for tech-chase options - most of the time you want to go for regrab for damage at low percentage, but after a while you should look for a dsmash, usmash, ftilt or dash attack depending on your position on the stage. I think dthrow->utilt also isn't bad but it's percentage/DI dependent on what followups you get, so don't rely on it. also don't forget about jab reset if they fail to tech
I'd just read kirbykaze's novel length tips on smash subforum cause there's a "help falco is owning me" thread every month .
Basically:
1. Approach with wavedash oos cause if you don't think it's safe simply wavedash oos back. Shiek, generally, likes to play the ground game with shuffl'd fairs in between fishing for grabs. At least, before you develop a good platform game. Shiek's dash dance isn't amazing but you should still use it so he doesn't know when exactly to approach.
2. If they're off the stage they need to die. Spacies own shiek on the stage/in neutral position, that's how the match up works. If they're off the ledge get over there and make sure they dead. This includes improving your needle game.
3. DI. Just... DI. You have to DI out of shine or you get combo'd way too hard.
4. Know your grab follow ups. It's not just tech chasing. Know when you can dash attack -> fair -> edge guard (see point 2).
5. Control the middle. There's a reason most shieks, m2k included, don't shino stall that much anymore. Controlling the middle with ftilts and dash dance grabs and last power shields makes a falco miserable. They hate being closer to the edge than their opponent.
Honestly, a lot of the match up revolves around movement and wavedashing oos so you don't succumb to laser pressure and do stupid approaches. You also have to make a falco feel like a falcon every time they're off stage or the match up is really hard.
Oh, and don't waste our double jump. When you get shined make sure you don't blink and watch his character for what his follow up is so you know if you need to use double jump. Make sure you tech every dair by falco ever.
Edit: Almost forgot, auto cancelled shffl'd fairs are sex. In every match up.
On March 19 2014 09:25 Atrioc wrote: Really appreciate the answer! The idea that its natural to have a tougher time in neutral but excel in punishing is comforting because it conforms to what I've seen happen, I guess I just need better concepts for minimizing the damage I am taking because I do feel comfortable (at least against the opponents I'm playing) with punishing once I get something going.
Some specific questions: Am I generally approaching with shield cancel grab? Am I approaching at all?
What am I following a dthrow with ? Even if I tech chase correctly I feel like the momentum is flipping back on me half the time if he shines
Good ways to rack up % at 0-50%?
If he does get a combo started (Shine into Dair for example) am I just trying to get the fuck away with my DI or is there anything I can do (nair etc) to turn it around?
I'm not a sheik player but one of the best players in my area is a falco and I often play sheik against him. So...this is what my sheik has learned from playing him.
My game plan against falco with sheik is to hit him enough to make him stop his pressure and shield so that I can get a grab, and then control the match. "Hitting him" at low %'s is pretty hard but some tricks I sometimes do are: spaced bairs or dj/fj nairs/bairs over his lasers, crouch cancel downsmash (don't vs dair), jabjabjab combo (seriously). DJ/FJ Nair trades with everything worst case scenario so it's not too bad to use as an approach every once in awhile. Platform movement + bairs/fair/nair is really important to getting that initial damage in. Jabbing after a shielded or even a hit aerial seriously gets like 15-20% at lowlow %, which is so huge vs falco...and nobody expects it. I don't like approaching on the ground till higher %'s because sheiks tilts really get out prioritized by or trade with falco's dair/nair (which is bad at low%) and also lasers.
After you finally get that grab it should be easier to get that damage in. U-smash or immediate grab or dash attack can be nice to tech chase but you shouldn't always immediately go for them if you're late because sometimes they can get a spotdodge/shine in. In cases like this where you're not sure it's still safe for you if you just go in and WD back to a nice distance from him or jump above where he gets up and follow with some spaced bair/nair/fair. Even if you don't get anything with the grab it's good because you can control the distance you are from falco as he gets up (not too far away for him to laser/approach how he wants and not to close to get owned with dair/shine pressure; close enough for you to start mixing in bairs, looking for a grab and returning his pressure).
Most characters I play against falco, my goal is to get him on the ground and then never let up so he can't feel comfortable going into his laser shit. Sheiks tilts and straight up aerial approaches are too easily punishable by falco at low% so that's why I feel like that grab is soso important. It seems like you understand that the actual goal is to get falco to a higher % so that you don't get completely owned by his neutral game and your tilts/combos start working.
On March 19 2014 10:35 oscar62 wrote: nair oos is god vs. mediocre shield pressure
so much this. I hate missing an l-cancel as falco and getting hit with nair oos
Missing an l-cancel has almost nothing to do with you being hit with a nair oos unless the sheik player goes for a shine oos everytime. You can't really react to an l-cancel being missed.
Nair oos is mainly used when the sheik player sees that the aerial hitting her shield is an early aerial, meaning that there will be a gap between it and the shine. If the aerial is spaced low in the shield, aka late aerial, there will be no gap big enough.
Nair oos can also be used after the shine, however the player shieldpressuring can read this and input his next aerial early to counter this. Early aerials doesn't work as shieldpressure though like I said earlier, so mostly it's safe to try to nair oos after the shine, but the timing is pretty hard.
On March 20 2014 10:01 d3_crescentia wrote: idk, seems like whenever I miss an l-cancel on dair I fail to shine afterward and end up wondering what happened before getting naired oos anyway
but, point taken re: nair oos vs. early/high aerials into shine
If you play falco, just shinegrab after your first aerial that hits his shield. You can actually still punish him even if the shine hits him and your grab misses. It's sooooo good with falco. If he catches on and starts to spotdodge or roll you have to mix it up of course.
On March 19 2014 11:35 Count9 wrote: I'd just read kirbykaze's novel length tips on smash subforum cause there's a "help falco is owning me" thread every month .
Basically:
1. Approach with wavedash oos cause if you don't think it's safe simply wavedash oos back. Shiek, generally, likes to play the ground game with shuffl'd fairs in between fishing for grabs. At least, before you develop a good platform game. Shiek's dash dance isn't amazing but you should still use it so he doesn't know when exactly to approach.
2. If they're off the stage they need to die. Spacies own shiek on the stage/in neutral position, that's how the match up works. If they're off the ledge get over there and make sure they dead. This includes improving your needle game.
3. DI. Just... DI. You have to DI out of shine or you get combo'd way too hard.
4. Know your grab follow ups. It's not just tech chasing. Know when you can dash attack -> fair -> edge guard (see point 2).
5. Control the middle. There's a reason most shieks, m2k included, don't shino stall that much anymore. Controlling the middle with ftilts and dash dance grabs and last power shields makes a falco miserable. They hate being closer to the edge than their opponent.
Honestly, a lot of the match up revolves around movement and wavedashing oos so you don't succumb to laser pressure and do stupid approaches. You also have to make a falco feel like a falcon every time they're off stage or the match up is really hard.
Oh, and don't waste our double jump. When you get shined make sure you don't blink and watch his character for what his follow up is so you know if you need to use double jump. Make sure you tech every dair by falco ever.
Edit: Almost forgot, auto cancelled shffl'd fairs are sex. In every match up.
This whole thread is amazing, really appreciating all the knowledge being shared - but this post in particular I think had a drastic positive impact on my game - I really tried to implement some of this stuff when playing today and already noticed payoffs. Got a $50 money match on Friday so hopefully my opponent doesn't adapt in time !
Don't overestimate the stun of Falco's laser; you can move almost immediately after getting hit by it. That might sound obvious but among players who struggle with the bird, many make the mistake of giving the laser too much credit and will just be stuck in one place while the Falco goes for a follow-up like delayed aerial which is easily avoided or countered by Nair OoS or WD OoS right after the laser. Making the Falco player realize that mindless laser -> aerial approaches over and over aren't going to work is the first step towards getting more space and time to work with in the neutral game.
Also, on the subject of Kirbykaze, go to the Sheik subforum on smashboards and read basically EVERYTHING he has to say. Guy's a fucking genius when it comes to sharing knowledge and advice in thorough yet clear ways. Sheik players at any skill level are very lucky to have him on board.
I WON the money match 3-1 (FD win / Yoshi's win / Yoshi's loss / FoD win ) and grabbed that sweet sweet $50 and more importantly at least a weeks worth of bragging rights
It was entirely thanks to the really really smart and cool help I got here SO THANKS - playing smash so much lately has really taken me back to the feeling I first had stumbling on TL for broodwar / there is something about a tight knit community that really just LOVES the game they watch/play that I cant get enough of.
VICTORY PIC:
Also if anyone is going to be at The Next Episode smash tournament up in NorCal today / tomorrow I will definitely be making an appearance to play some friendlies and bow at KirbyKaze's feet. Shoot me a PM or something and we can meet up!
grats and glad to hear I helped, I thought my tips might've been too general. And that's more money than I've ever won in tourneys :D think right now I'm up at 2 pizzas, 1 mcdonalds burger, and $5 in money matches.
I kinda wish melee was easier to play (as in people don't have to drive 30 minutes to some random guy's house or dorm they heard about on the internet to get started) and more accessible, but it also feels like the fact that you're forced to make face to face contact with people makes the community better. (same with most other fighting games honestly, though I still wish it could be like sc/dota where I click a button and play people my level online without game impairing lag and frame drops)
On March 22 2014 18:45 Count9 wrote:I kinda wish melee was easier to play (as in people don't have to drive 30 minutes to some random guy's house or dorm they heard about on the internet to get started) and more accessible, but it also feels like the fact that you're forced to make face to face contact with people makes the community better.)
Seriously, when I started Melee I felt the same, but I've grown to LOVE it. You always look forward to the next smash tournament and meeting your friends that love the same game you do.
When I played BW for like 3 years I only ever went to Dreamhack and that was only twice. With Smash I've gone to like 30 tournaments now and met SO many cool people. Also travelled to lots of different countries!
I have to agree that I like the way melee has historically been an offline game only (yes, there is netplay now). I think it has really done a lot to keep the community alive. For one, you can't shut down Melee's servers (there are none, duh). A lot of games that have relied on their online scenes are basically given an expiration date when support for their servers stops, melee has no such date. It's a lot like the double-edged sword of developer support: It can be great when you have it, but if you come to rely on it, you'll die off when support is dropped and a newer game comes out. Secondly, it makes it really hard to overdose on melee. Most people only get to play with other SSBM players a few days a week, if they're lucky. I feel like that really keeps the hunger alive in a way that instant access doesn't. Finally, obviously there is the friendships developed through the community. When you make friends through the game, the game becomes a way to come together. There are many players who have said that the main reason they still come to tourneys is just to be able to hang out with people they wouldn't see otherwise.
British Columbia's best Sheik here (lots of Falcos in BC, Blunted_Object10 is my main MU experience).
The first piece of advice I asked for when I moved to Vancouver and the first piece of advice I got was the following:
"How do I deal with laser approaches from Falco?" "Powershield them." "..." "Yeah, you have to be that good now."
The following advice is direct from Mew2King on facebook:
Jason Zimmerman
grabs low %
after 21% dash attack after 24/25% f tilt (24 vs fox 25 vs falco)
then tech chases
or wavedash back a lot
back thrw at edge
up or down throw middle stage
a lot of wavedash back and grabs
space fox
powershield falcos lasers then wavedash oos, nair oos, or roll oos
Basically, Sheik "unlocks" moves. At low %, you want to fish for grabs and nair oos a lot. Then ftilts and shit, then dash attacks and shit (but always grabs).
On March 29 2014 10:07 Zoler wrote: Every character unlocks moves at certain percentages.
Yes, but you're still nair-shining with Fox and laser/drill approaching with Falco no matter what percentage somebody is at for example. Their spacing zones stay the same. Sheik's spacing zone and preferred moves change.
On March 29 2014 10:07 Zoler wrote: Every character unlocks moves at certain percentages.
Yes, but you're still nair-shining with Fox and laser/drill approaching with Falco no matter what percentage somebody is at for example. Their spacing zones stay the same. Sheik's spacing zone and preferred moves change.
It's risky to nair as Fox at low percents vs good players.
You will cc grabbed or something else into a death combo. Fox vs those characters at low percents use grabs, usmash, bair and laser. Sometimes dair of course but that's risky since the range is so poor. You don't even need to CC fox nair to actually punish it at low percents, it's enough to DI down when being hit, so you can run and DI down if it hits you.
Falco is different since his dair is lol. Also it's just foxs dair that's called the drill, just letting you know!
Still I get what you're saying, Sheik has a harder time vs CC than most other characters since she only really have grab, dsmash and needles as an answer. However this isn't that hard to get around as you get better and better as sheik since one grab is really all you need to kill some characters!
This may sound obvious, but I think half the match is rooted in stage depending on a character/players ability to navigate around falco lasers.
If you're good at needle camping, BF is a safe choice. Learning to tech dair/shine combos is imparative to winning too, if you can't properly DI out, platforms will save you that trouble usually.
Don't underestimate standard ground needles either, falco can be interrupted if sheik starts it before he starts to jump around and shoot his pew pew lasers. You won't win trades after the initial laser, but most falcos only shoot lasers at distances they feel is safe for them to do so. Against falcos that tend to back up before shooting lasers a few sets of needles as they are trying to put distance will help you tremendously.
If the falco hits your shield high with his dair, you can shield grab them. Don't do this though if they're hitting the shield low because you're gonna give them a free shine. Some players actually tilt their shield up to force the falco to hit higher on their shield so they can do this, but it only works at certain heights.
If the falco CC's a lot, don't hesitate to dsmash, or just throw out grabs a lot. Well spaced fairs and bairs can actually be key too.
Played a ~30 min session with my office money match rival, all Sheik vs Falco (Ben Swartz, the one doing most of the talkign in the vid - on that note, sorry about some of the background noise and i realize that the stream quality is pretty low for the office of a video game streaming company but bear with me)
I would absolutely LOVE some critique/tips from anyone who watches any part of this. I'm really trying to get better, not just at this matchup, but at the game in general.
At around 2:09:44 is my loser's finals match vs BenSW, the falco I'm always money matching. I know its bad form to post any match you win when asking for criticism but since this was a Bo5 that went to last game last stock I think it could have easily gone either way and I made a fuckton of mistakes that I would love some help on.
The WF/Finals is just me getting owned by Scar (with the handicap of having 3 stocks and random character) because he really outclasses me in every way.
I guess theres a million things that could be said but probably just cover the basics and the things that will by far make the biggest difference for your game
Firstly, a few technical things - in order to play the basic sheik game you're going to want to be able to WD oos, dashdance, pivot dance (or fox trotting whatever you wanna call it) wavelanding on platforms (even the wavestop is fine straight down)
Right now you're stuck with a lot of rolling around which is OK because your opponent isn't fast/adapting enough to punish it. The higher up you go, the more creative your movement needs to become in order to space against your opponents attacks and intrude on his space to get your own attacks in Even though im pretty sure you can already execute all these in practise/single player, it's about using them correctly in real games to out-space and bait your opponent
Alot of sheiks like to start off with run forward+WD back as their basic space/bait tool because sheik's WD is really fast so spamming WD to move pretty much everywhere in close quarters can be really advantageous especially against newer players
Right now you are not in need of any complicated baits (your falco opponent is basically laser-laser->throw an attack in your general direction) so as long as you are careful about keeping your space you can pretty much force him to whiff everything he throws and punish him.
Next about your punish game and your attacks in general. You are using all the basic sheik attack moves (good) (dash attack, tilt, slap!) and you got the basic idea that when you're in "punish mode" you can throw attacks like downsmashes to hit techs on spots and stuff which is great
The main thing i would say is that you are throwing a lot of attacks based on where your opponent currently is, and not considering instead where he is GOING to be. This both applies in neutral (when often you're getting ready to attack but instead he flies into your face) and in punish game (where often you have him on the ground/thrown/stunned, and you immediately attack in the general direction when he is in a bad/knocked down position) If you tilt him and he gets knocked down into the ground, you can just wait and see what he does and punish him accordingly. If you got fast reactions, you can follow his techs and follow up with all kinds of moves, but even for players with slower reactions (m2k anyone?) you can simply wait for your opponent to do "something" and put him in an awful position (for example, a lot of players like to do the desperation spot dodge when they see their opponent coming from a tech-chase)
When you're in punish mode, try to put yourself in a position using the movement techniques where you are able to cover his options and don't be afraid to take a step back and think about what he can/can't do before going in for your attack. There is no need to immediately throw a dash attack/downsmash right when you throw him/knock him down, you can follow his tech and position yourself in a way that covers his options to put him in an EVEN WORSE position than before.
in addition to that, I'll add 2 more things that kind of don't have to do with using attacks.
1 is just general movement. It's a little funny watching you vs falco in loser's becausee whenever you guys are separated you two just immediately charge at each other. It feels like whenever you guys get a bit of distance from each other into neutral you guys have to immediately run at each other and each of you chooses a move (like dash attack vs roll) and then you see who chose better. I understand you want to get in on falco before he starts the laser train (laser dd better than mass laser honestly, but that's another story) but running straight at him or dash attack across half the stage is not great. I'd just watch a melee video and only pay attention to how a sheik is moving, don't worry about attacks or tech skill or anything like that, just study how they move at certain parts of the stage.
2 is there are a lot of questionable decisions you make that I can't help but feel you're doing because you feel like you have to do something. You're on auto pilot so you just throw out a move and see what happens rather than making a conscious decision to use a move because it's good in that situation. Mango often dash dances in front of his opponent's shield and doesn't throw out a single move for a couple seconds. People often just dash dance at each other trying to bait something out without throw a single move (more often in match ups like marth ditto or falcon ditto). Try not to throw out moves just because you feel like you have to do something; eliminating that habit will get you really far because then you can look back on a tape and say "ok, I used that move cause I thought X but clearly I was wrong" rather than "I used that move cause I wanted to press buttons and clearly I was wrong".
Thanks guys, I really truly appreciate the advice.
The idea that I dont always have to do be doing something just do it and can instead be more patient and react to them - and the idea that I should start thinking about attacking where they are GOING to be and not where they are right now have already given me an immediate win rate boost and I'm going to keep working to polish both of those skills as well as apply the rest of the advice you guys gave.
Today is money match monday - I've got $20 bets with a falco, falco, and marth respectively so here's hoping I can put some of what you guys say to good use! I'll try and get another video sometime from this week or next just to see if I've made any progress.
EPT
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