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On January 17 2015 00:28 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2015 20:56 Drazerk wrote:On January 16 2015 20:41 TerranHwaiting wrote:
Tanks should fucking tank and do no damage at all like in Vanilla and TBC! Hey remember when threat was actually important? Fun times Threat was one of the most disappointing things about my return to WoW (stopped after Sunwell). I came back for WoD and was my guilds MT (Prot Paladin) and the fact you basically hit any mob with any attack and it's impossible to rip aggro made tanking really underwhelming. Its' still fun to be the 'focus' of attention as a tank but they dumbed down the role so much that it went from a prestigious skillful position, to mouth breathing don't stand in shit and you're fine type of role. I honestly don't know what they were thinking when they all but removed threat.
If anything tanking is harder now with active mitigation. Holding threat was basically just doing your rotation while your dps had to watch Omen (or better yet, just wait 5s before starting dps), now you have to actually think about what skills to use to avoid yourself dying.
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On January 17 2015 03:12 Mikau wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 00:28 crms wrote:On January 16 2015 20:56 Drazerk wrote:On January 16 2015 20:41 TerranHwaiting wrote:
Tanks should fucking tank and do no damage at all like in Vanilla and TBC! Hey remember when threat was actually important? Fun times Threat was one of the most disappointing things about my return to WoW (stopped after Sunwell). I came back for WoD and was my guilds MT (Prot Paladin) and the fact you basically hit any mob with any attack and it's impossible to rip aggro made tanking really underwhelming. Its' still fun to be the 'focus' of attention as a tank but they dumbed down the role so much that it went from a prestigious skillful position, to mouth breathing don't stand in shit and you're fine type of role. I honestly don't know what they were thinking when they all but removed threat. If anything tanking is harder now with active mitigation. Holding threat was basically just doing your rotation while your dps had to watch Omen (or better yet, just wait 5s before starting dps), now you have to actually think about what skills to use to avoid yourself dying.
Umm you had to do all that and watch threat. So it is easy to tank now than in BC, Also in BC when adds spawned picking them up was way harder and a reason why most tanks had multiple taunts.
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Exception there were almost no tanking CDs to use back then while now there are active mitigation tools you constantly need to be using. Tanking has changed a lot but in my opinion it's a lot more challenging to play optimally then it was in the past.
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from what I remember Feral Druid Tanking wasn't very complicated in BC
or very good I suppose.
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On January 17 2015 06:19 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 03:12 Mikau wrote:On January 17 2015 00:28 crms wrote:On January 16 2015 20:56 Drazerk wrote:On January 16 2015 20:41 TerranHwaiting wrote:
Tanks should fucking tank and do no damage at all like in Vanilla and TBC! Hey remember when threat was actually important? Fun times Threat was one of the most disappointing things about my return to WoW (stopped after Sunwell). I came back for WoD and was my guilds MT (Prot Paladin) and the fact you basically hit any mob with any attack and it's impossible to rip aggro made tanking really underwhelming. Its' still fun to be the 'focus' of attention as a tank but they dumbed down the role so much that it went from a prestigious skillful position, to mouth breathing don't stand in shit and you're fine type of role. I honestly don't know what they were thinking when they all but removed threat. If anything tanking is harder now with active mitigation. Holding threat was basically just doing your rotation while your dps had to watch Omen (or better yet, just wait 5s before starting dps), now you have to actually think about what skills to use to avoid yourself dying. Umm you had to do all that and watch threat. So it is easy to tank now than in BC, Also in BC when adds spawned picking them up was way harder and a reason why most tanks had multiple taunts.
You didn't have nearly as many active mitigation tools.
And more importantly. Threat wasn't something tanks watched, you just did as much as you could and the dps gimped themselves to try and stay below it.
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Tanking is still the most fun PvE role to me (I'm holy now) but it's way easier now than it was in BC. I'm not sure it's even close. While you're right that there are more active mitigation spells, those are not exactly complicated or stressful to use. Fights in BC where you had to threat multiple mobs, have GCD up to break fears, etc., etc., are way more complicated/challenging then hitting a mob with a concecrate tick and having it be stuck to you forever.
To be fair, all I've tanked since TBC is WoD heroics through mythic twins, been holy since then. I didn't tank (or play) in Cata or MoP.
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On January 17 2015 06:45 Mikau wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 06:19 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:On January 17 2015 03:12 Mikau wrote:On January 17 2015 00:28 crms wrote:On January 16 2015 20:56 Drazerk wrote:On January 16 2015 20:41 TerranHwaiting wrote:
Tanks should fucking tank and do no damage at all like in Vanilla and TBC! Hey remember when threat was actually important? Fun times Threat was one of the most disappointing things about my return to WoW (stopped after Sunwell). I came back for WoD and was my guilds MT (Prot Paladin) and the fact you basically hit any mob with any attack and it's impossible to rip aggro made tanking really underwhelming. Its' still fun to be the 'focus' of attention as a tank but they dumbed down the role so much that it went from a prestigious skillful position, to mouth breathing don't stand in shit and you're fine type of role. I honestly don't know what they were thinking when they all but removed threat. If anything tanking is harder now with active mitigation. Holding threat was basically just doing your rotation while your dps had to watch Omen (or better yet, just wait 5s before starting dps), now you have to actually think about what skills to use to avoid yourself dying. Umm you had to do all that and watch threat. So it is easy to tank now than in BC, Also in BC when adds spawned picking them up was way harder and a reason why most tanks had multiple taunts. You didn't have nearly as many active mitigation tools. And more importantly. Threat wasn't something tanks watched, you just did as much as you could and the dps gimped themselves to try and stay below it.
Tanks definitely watched threat. Threat generation was extremely important for tanks, it was basically as important as DPS being able to min/max and hit the highest numbers they could. All while using mitigation, not standing in shit, keeping the mobs positioned correctly etc., If you could generate more threat, your dps could do more dps. If you weren't good at staying alive, generating high threat etc., your raid suffered. If DPS had to constantly stall out to not rip, the tank isn't doing a good job*.
I was actually blown away and didn't really understand what was going on the first time I started tanking dungeons in WoD. I was rotating targets, spamming 'threat' moves on everyone trying really hard to make sure I had agro on everything etc., until I realized it didn't matter. I had to ask guildies that hadn't stopped playing what changed or what the hell was going on. We had a running joke on vent with some old players when gearing up for highmaul in heroics when we'd chain pull and say stuff like 'don't worry mob got hit by consecrate.' Implying that agro is meaningless because the mob took a tick of consecrate.
*some encounters it was more the DPS making sure not to rip with encounter specific buffs and stuff, but in general it's on the tank.
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Warriors have only gained their absorb since BC I think? And changed Demo shout I guess.
Other classes have gained a lot though.
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Tanking was pretty bad in my opinion. I found no joy in having to taunt every 8sec because 3 guys were nuking their own target and aoe skills and/or switching targets didn't help one bit there.
ToC (WotLK) had these twin valkyr where a mage with the correct talents could deal insanity damage and no tank would ever have been able to tank that. It went like this: wait 5s, cast twice, summon mirror images to not draw aggro with the next cast, once mirror images are over use cloak to aggro reset, cast again for 5sec and instant aggro, tank taunts, 2sec later you have aggro again. That wasn't fun for me or the tank. Well, it was fun in a silly kind of way the first time it happened, but afterwards it just sucked.
One fight with a kind of interesting mechanic was Patchwerk (of all bosses lol), that required both tanks to be #1 and #2 in aggro or else. What other fight was there with something "interesting" for tanks? I only remember "stand there and hope your healers are up to scratch" and "be annoyed with the dps who didn't wait a few sec before attacking". Of course there was always the "taunt at x stacks" stuff, but we all know how complicated that is.
With the changes to tanking you can't just be bad and get healed, you need to use your skills correctly or you die. Of course that isn't insanely difficult, but it's more exciting than what it used to be, because you don't have to rely on others not being bad to be able to do your job correctly. I can see how one might feel that something was taken away from tanking, but to me it seems more like having a 255 unit selection limit instead of 12.
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Italy12246 Posts
Uh i never had problem aggroing twin valkyr iirc, and i had a couple of pulls when i got godlike RNG and did like twice as much damage as anyone else in the raid.
I do wish threat was more of a thing though. Vanilla level shit where you had to stop nuking once in a while to not overaggro was terrible, but there should be a middle ground there where you need to pay some amounts of attention to what you are dpsing, and how much you are dpsing that target.
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On January 17 2015 20:39 Teoita wrote:
Uh i never had problem aggroing twin valkyr iirc, and i had a couple of pulls when i got godlike RNG and did like twice as much damage as anyone else in the raid.
I do wish threat was more of a thing though. Vanilla level shit where you had to stop nuking once in a while to not overaggro was terrible, but there should be a middle ground there where you need to pay some amounts of attention to what you are dpsing, and how much you are dpsing that target.
i disagree i think threat in vanilla and the mechanics sort of felt somewhat "realistic" and made the fights interesting
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The thing about threat being an issue is that if tanks can't produce equal threat (in terms of mechanical balance, not player skill) you begin to really hurt your raid by bringing low threat tanks because it throttles your DPS. Sure classes can be weak at times but something like that seems like it'd be enough to make a spec completely unviable.
I also think if you have to hold back on DPS for the tank it means that the difference between a good DPS and a great DPS becomes less. What's the point of learning Ret priority (which is like 15 items long) when maximizing it means I'm just gonna pull threat and die? Ditto for any other class.
I mean, I can understand wanting threat to be enough of an issue where if the tank is only doing negligible damage to a target that you're unloading on you should pull aggro but I feel like that's already a thing and I just don't think it's that interesting a thing to add without reworking classes to account for it, but I think that would work better in an entirely different game.
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The changes to threat feel like an accessibility issue.
Throughout the entire history of WoW there has been a tank shortage. Being a bad tank in vanilla was a serious issue as TomatoBisque mentioned because it negatively effects everyone else aswell. DPS cant do their job. Healers have more to heal because mobs get lose.
By making threat a non-issue the disadvantage of having a bank tank is reduced. DPS barely suffer and while Healers have to still heal more if the defensive usage is bad it is less then if threat was also an issue.
Having threat be this easy allows for more people to tank which reduces the shortage.
Active mitigation is still there because there has to be something to do as a tank. This was actually an issue during MoP, tanks became glorified dps because for some tanking classes there was neither threat nor mitigation to worry about.
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On January 17 2015 22:01 Gorsameth wrote:
The changes to threat feel like an accessibility issue.
Throughout the entire history of WoW there has been a tank shortage. Being a bad tank in vanilla was a serious issue as TomatoBisque mentioned because it negatively effects everyone else aswell. DPS cant do their job. Healers have more to heal because mobs get lose.
By making threat a non-issue the disadvantage of having a bank tank is reduced. DPS barely suffer and while Healers have to still heal more if the defensive usage is bad it is less then if threat was also an issue.
Having threat be this easy allows for more people to tank which reduces the shortage.
Active mitigation is still there because there has to be something to do as a tank. This was actually an issue during MoP, tanks became glorified dps because for some tanking classes there was neither threat nor mitigation to worry about.
As with everything, teamplay and coordination requires more skill than following a "rotation". Generating threat was as simple as following your rotation. There really is nothing hard to it. That's like the basis that everyone should be able to do. That's like learning how each chess piece is allowed to move, not learning chess. Everyone who says otherwise, who says threat was a good and hard mechanic is a fool. Either you did have good enough items to generate enough threat or you didn't. At some point maybe your items were even too good and you had to run naked through 5mans because you don't get enough rage to generate enough threat when your dps can do their rotation. How can that even be considered good design?
Now what DOES require some form of skill is managing cooldowns. Not only your own ones that is, tanks have to taunt between them, need to time their mitigation between each other and need to time mitigation from healers as well. The problem is that this is only necessary when you're underequipped or at least not overequipped, as such the raids become just too easy over time, especially everything below mythic, and you can pug through them with little synergy and coordination.
Tl;dr: everywho says raids are too easy nowadays and doesn't have 7/7 mythic by now is..i dont want to get banned.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On January 18 2015 00:50 Warri wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2015 22:01 Gorsameth wrote:
The changes to threat feel like an accessibility issue.
Throughout the entire history of WoW there has been a tank shortage. Being a bad tank in vanilla was a serious issue as TomatoBisque mentioned because it negatively effects everyone else aswell. DPS cant do their job. Healers have more to heal because mobs get lose.
By making threat a non-issue the disadvantage of having a bank tank is reduced. DPS barely suffer and while Healers have to still heal more if the defensive usage is bad it is less then if threat was also an issue.
Having threat be this easy allows for more people to tank which reduces the shortage.
Active mitigation is still there because there has to be something to do as a tank. This was actually an issue during MoP, tanks became glorified dps because for some tanking classes there was neither threat nor mitigation to worry about.
As with everything, teamplay and coordination requires more skill than following a "rotation". Generating threat was as simple as following your rotation. There really is nothing hard to it. That's like the basis that everyone should be able to do. That's like learning how each chess piece is allowed to move, not learning chess. Everyone who says otherwise, who says threat was a good and hard mechanic is a fool. Either you did have good enough items to generate enough threat or you didn't. At some point maybe your items were even too good and you had to run naked through 5mans because you don't get enough rage to generate enough threat when your dps can do their rotation. How can that even be considered good design? Now what DOES require some form of skill is managing cooldowns. Not only your own ones that is, tanks have to taunt between them, need to time their mitigation between each other and need to time mitigation from healers as well. The problem is that this is only necessary when you're underequipped or at least not overequipped, as such the raids become just too easy over time, especially everything below mythic, and you can pug through them with little synergy and coordination. Tl;dr: everywho says raids are too easy nowadays and doesn't have 7/7 mythic by now is..i dont want to get banned.
Why cant you have mitigation AND good threat mechanics? Sure threat wasn't perfect and could have been tweaked a little but it'd be interesting design wise if a tank had to pass up mitigation for threat or visa versa with current mechanics in place. Have threat moves do less DPS as was the case with shaman tanks meaning you had to be careful with enrage timers if you wanted to maximise your threat or cause mitigation to drop threat massively meaning if they have to spam mitigation then they risk losing aggro.
Speaking to my tanks on the issue mitigation / cd management is basically just the same as following a rotation based on boss patterns so it is no different to before.
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On January 18 2015 01:08 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2015 00:50 Warri wrote:On January 17 2015 22:01 Gorsameth wrote:
The changes to threat feel like an accessibility issue.
Throughout the entire history of WoW there has been a tank shortage. Being a bad tank in vanilla was a serious issue as TomatoBisque mentioned because it negatively effects everyone else aswell. DPS cant do their job. Healers have more to heal because mobs get lose.
By making threat a non-issue the disadvantage of having a bank tank is reduced. DPS barely suffer and while Healers have to still heal more if the defensive usage is bad it is less then if threat was also an issue.
Having threat be this easy allows for more people to tank which reduces the shortage.
Active mitigation is still there because there has to be something to do as a tank. This was actually an issue during MoP, tanks became glorified dps because for some tanking classes there was neither threat nor mitigation to worry about.
As with everything, teamplay and coordination requires more skill than following a "rotation". Generating threat was as simple as following your rotation. There really is nothing hard to it. That's like the basis that everyone should be able to do. That's like learning how each chess piece is allowed to move, not learning chess. Everyone who says otherwise, who says threat was a good and hard mechanic is a fool. Either you did have good enough items to generate enough threat or you didn't. At some point maybe your items were even too good and you had to run naked through 5mans because you don't get enough rage to generate enough threat when your dps can do their rotation. How can that even be considered good design? Now what DOES require some form of skill is managing cooldowns. Not only your own ones that is, tanks have to taunt between them, need to time their mitigation between each other and need to time mitigation from healers as well. The problem is that this is only necessary when you're underequipped or at least not overequipped, as such the raids become just too easy over time, especially everything below mythic, and you can pug through them with little synergy and coordination. Tl;dr: everywho says raids are too easy nowadays and doesn't have 7/7 mythic by now is..i dont want to get banned. Why cant you have mitigation AND good threat mechanics? Sure threat wasn't perfect and could have been tweaked a little but it'd be interesting design wise if a tank had to pass up mitigation for threat or visa versa with current mechanics in place. Have threat moves do less DPS as was the case with shaman tanks meaning you had to be careful with enrage timers if you wanted to maximise your threat or cause mitigation to drop threat massively meaning if they have to spam mitigation then they risk losing aggro. Speaking to my tanks on the issue mitigation / cd management is basically just the same as following a rotation based on boss patterns so it is no different to before.
Because those better threat mechanics means there are even less tanks running LFR/LFD because they cant manage it.
Yes for good players the current threat is super boring (tho I would say old threat was not much more interesting) but to me this is a change made for those 10k or less dps players you see in LFR and normal dungeons.
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On January 18 2015 01:08 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2015 00:50 Warri wrote:On January 17 2015 22:01 Gorsameth wrote:
The changes to threat feel like an accessibility issue.
Throughout the entire history of WoW there has been a tank shortage. Being a bad tank in vanilla was a serious issue as TomatoBisque mentioned because it negatively effects everyone else aswell. DPS cant do their job. Healers have more to heal because mobs get lose.
By making threat a non-issue the disadvantage of having a bank tank is reduced. DPS barely suffer and while Healers have to still heal more if the defensive usage is bad it is less then if threat was also an issue.
Having threat be this easy allows for more people to tank which reduces the shortage.
Active mitigation is still there because there has to be something to do as a tank. This was actually an issue during MoP, tanks became glorified dps because for some tanking classes there was neither threat nor mitigation to worry about.
As with everything, teamplay and coordination requires more skill than following a "rotation". Generating threat was as simple as following your rotation. There really is nothing hard to it. That's like the basis that everyone should be able to do. That's like learning how each chess piece is allowed to move, not learning chess. Everyone who says otherwise, who says threat was a good and hard mechanic is a fool. Either you did have good enough items to generate enough threat or you didn't. At some point maybe your items were even too good and you had to run naked through 5mans because you don't get enough rage to generate enough threat when your dps can do their rotation. How can that even be considered good design? Now what DOES require some form of skill is managing cooldowns. Not only your own ones that is, tanks have to taunt between them, need to time their mitigation between each other and need to time mitigation from healers as well. The problem is that this is only necessary when you're underequipped or at least not overequipped, as such the raids become just too easy over time, especially everything below mythic, and you can pug through them with little synergy and coordination. Tl;dr: everywho says raids are too easy nowadays and doesn't have 7/7 mythic by now is..i dont want to get banned. Why cant you have mitigation AND good threat mechanics? Sure threat wasn't perfect and could have been tweaked a little but it'd be interesting design wise if a tank had to pass up mitigation for threat or visa versa with current mechanics in place. Have threat moves do less DPS as was the case with shaman tanks meaning you had to be careful with enrage timers if you wanted to maximise your threat or cause mitigation to drop threat massively meaning if they have to spam mitigation then they risk losing aggro. Speaking to my tanks on the issue mitigation / cd management is basically just the same as following a rotation based on boss patterns so it is no different to before.
Sure, that sounds nice but i imagine even harder to tune the boss so it doesnt become completely irrelevant at higher levels and you just spam one or the other again.
It is basically the same, however the latter requires communication. Maybe the tank dropped too low and had to blow his own cd prematurely so he now cant take the next HITOFDOOM on his own, he has to convey that to you and/or a healer. Do you taunt risking not having the debuff expire, do you let him die and ressurect him, do you get a healer CD, do you pray or a dodge, thats not a decision that you decide on your own like which optimal spell do i press now to get more aggro. Again, maybe this DOES seem easy to you, but this is probably because you already are overgeared for your heroic or normal pug raid, where it really doesnt matter how you faceroll and waste your cds. But that's the good thing, there's always more challenge until you have mythic fullclear.
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i remember tanking some of the first raids in cata before they started hella buffing threat was kinda difficult.
you had to wait a second or three to dps before the threat buffs to not lose aggro to some dps that was cooldown popping at the start
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Italy12246 Posts
Most specs had ways to dump aggro at the start of a fight when threat was a thing. I had problem going batshit insane in ICC on my mage, then just using Invis once my mirror images ran out. Same went for warlocks with soulshatter, hunters with feign death, rogues with vanish, ferals with cower etc etc.
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Yeah, its basically impossible to get aggro if the Tank is still alive as a DPS. I played 31/20-Warrior, Hunter and Rogue in Vanilla/TBC and if you didn't give the Tank time to build up Threat you would get Aggro pretty much all the time. Especially in fights like Vael, I always had to Offtank with my Rogue, because I got aggro lol.
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