On February 26 2016 00:53 lestye wrote: Awesome writeup, Clonester. I corrected myself in a previous post, I suppose my criticism shouldn't necessarily be with the upkeep system in general, but probably the tuning with low-high, maybe? There's no death balls in WC3, so I don't really see a point in the high upkeep system. Maybe it's way toooo radical to suggest putting low and high at lower caps, but I do have to question High Upkeep when there's never a practical time where you're going to go there as part of your strategy.
In one form you are right, you can question high Upkeep.
I think, when this feature was developed by Blizzard, they aimed for a system that stops people from getting super large armys when they have an advantage already. Staying out of upkeep for longer time and survive can bring you the victory. But the high upkeep is no thing in the current meta, but how should Blizzard know the meta of 2016 when they released the game?
The high upkeep at this moment does no harm nor brings really benefits to the game, it is just there. I cannot tell you why, but I would miss it, when it is gone. Its just some these super old core mechanics that dont mean alot (here almost nothing) for the game itself, but for the feeling of the game.
If you would straight cancel high upkeep, humans towering theirself to 100/100 could become comon, as they can use militia, towers, summons and merc to obtain presence on the map and defending. I dont know how the game would change, but I say it could change. If you lower the range (50/70) for example of high upkeep, then this would work just like another upkeep barrier as the lower one does: Orcs, Undeads and Humans would just stop pushing units at 70 supply, if they once started going over 50. Following this, a lower range of high upkeep would be a buff for races who can use their extra gold in different things then units without getting behind the one with the bigger army: Items, moonwells, upgrades, towers, expensions gobling zeppelin and zapper.
To sum it up: You are right, high upkeep is very rare. Still I would miss it. Just I would miss taurens, undead casters, dreadlord, far seer and many other things, that are "useless" or super away from meta. It is like cutting Battlecruiser out of SC II, even you dont see them there.
That's a good point. I wasn't necessarily suggesting to remove high upkeep all together, but capping at 70, since that's kind of like, the unoffical pop cap since no one dares to cross that threshold.
There's certainly plenty of strategy of playing with the upkeep,items, gold, income, pushing into Low, but not too far or you're going to be stuck there for a while, but we don't see those strategic decisions with High Upkeep. Well... besides the decision of "NEVER go there".
Can we make High Upkeep a part of the game or is it a bad concept, because for all intents and purposes, high upkeep is synonymous with pop cap.
On February 26 2016 01:20 lestye wrote: That's a good point. I wasn't necessarily suggesting to remove high upkeep all together, but capping at 70, since that's kind of like, the unoffical pop cap since no one dares to cross that threshold.
There's certainly plenty of strategy of playing with the upkeep,items, gold, income, pushing into Low, but not too far or you're going to be stuck there for a while, but we don't see those strategic decisions with High Upkeep. Well... besides the decision of "NEVER go there".
Can we make High Upkeep a part of the game or is it a bad concept, because for all intents and purposes, high upkeep is synonymous with pop cap.
I dont think it is needed to change. Lowering it would hit certain matchups (at least thats what I think), because you are right, it is a pop cap. Lowering the pop cap will not magically bring people into high upkeep, they will stick with the lower barrier and play arround it. It is too punishing. Just trash high upkeep all to geather is for me also unacceptable, I play the game since 2004 and I couldnt stand that such a core mechanic gets removed after 14 years it exists. I am too "elitist" for that. Also the third most played game type (after 1v1 and DotA) was 4v4. High upkeep is seen pretty often in 4v4. These games tend to be fast expand all, either creep or harass, go for 100 supply for all, attack. High upkeep is there to force 4v4 meta into different options, you still see people pushing into high upkeep in 4v4, but also see 50/50 x4 pushes or rushes.
If I had to change anything to high upkeep, I would do the following: Instead of making it 4 gold per 10 gold mined, I would reduce the punishment to 5 of 10 gold mined. Even if this is a rather small change, it would be enough to encourage people to go over 80, atleast humans and Bear-Dryad-Nelfs. With an expansion, you would still get 10 gold per second, as much as 50/50 on one base.
do you guys play WC3 on bnet these days or somewhere else? I played long time ago during ROC and first years of TFT, as night elf, quite a bit but not that much, definitely liked the game
On February 26 2016 01:39 ProMeTheus112 wrote: do you guys play WC3 on bnet these days or somewhere else? I played long time ago during ROC and first years of TFT, as night elf, quite a bit but not that much, definitely liked the game
When I want some casual 4v4, I play Bnet on EU server. But it is cheat infested and not used much.
If I want to play 1v1, I go to the biggest and best private Bnet for EU, Russia and USA East: War3Arena.com
On February 26 2016 01:39 ProMeTheus112 wrote: do you guys play WC3 on bnet these days or somewhere else? I played long time ago during ROC and first years of TFT, as night elf, quite a bit but not that much, definitely liked the game
When I want some casual 4v4, I play Bnet on EU server. But it is cheat infested and not used much.
If I want to play 1v1, I go to the biggest and best private Bnet for EU, Russia and USA East: War3Arena.com
Nice, I think I'll give it a go soon on w3arena (I pretty much only play 1v1 in W3). Loooooong time :D
Surely this has been discussed before. But what would the repercussions be, instead of having 3 upkeep states, having like 8? From 0-30 supply -> 100% income, 31-40 -> 90%, 41-50 -> 80% etc?
Repercussions in what sense? Strategically, or how the player-base would react?
Strategically, what I see is that this system would punish having more than 30 supply, instead of more than 50. From a practical standpoint, this would mean that units that are over the 30 supply cap "cost" more overall, which would mean that any races/strategies that involve using more than 30 supply worth of units are nerfed, while any races/strategies that involve using 30 or less supply are buffed. So basically more people would prioritize items/towers.
How the player-base would react, I'd imagine that any casual players might be miffed at the added complexity, and elitists would be miffed at such a drastic change to something so core to the gameplay.
Theoretically I think it's a neat idea as it more properly models upkeep, but from a practical standpoint I don't think it would pan out.
On February 26 2016 01:39 ProMeTheus112 wrote: do you guys play WC3 on bnet these days or somewhere else? I played long time ago during ROC and first years of TFT, as night elf, quite a bit but not that much, definitely liked the game
When I want some casual 4v4, I play Bnet on EU server. But it is cheat infested and not used much.
If I want to play 1v1, I go to the biggest and best private Bnet for EU, Russia and USA East: War3Arena.com
Does that even have an MMR? I'm pretty good at WC3, used to be Germany's best UD player for a good while, and I never seem to find a challenge there. I remember having quitting with like 80-2 stats last year.
On February 26 2016 01:39 ProMeTheus112 wrote: do you guys play WC3 on bnet these days or somewhere else? I played long time ago during ROC and first years of TFT, as night elf, quite a bit but not that much, definitely liked the game
When I want some casual 4v4, I play Bnet on EU server. But it is cheat infested and not used much.
If I want to play 1v1, I go to the biggest and best private Bnet for EU, Russia and USA East: War3Arena.com
Does that even have an MMR? I'm pretty good at WC3, used to be Germany's best UD player for a good while, and I never seem to find a challenge there. I remember having quitting with like 80-2 stats last year.
Yes, it has an MMR. Play on W3Arena to play with current best europeen players. After a couple of "easy games", you should only hit on real enemies.
For me upkeep is a core strategic mechanic and factors into what for me makes WC3 the deepest strategy game I've played and that's the shifting nature of advantage in the game.
Grubby describes it really well in one of his commentaries. At any point in the game you can have an advantage/disadvantage in a huge number of areas. Army size, Army composition, Tech, Map positioning, Economy, Hero Level and Item strength all need to be accounted for to determine the status of a game at any time. What I love about it is how in a remotely even game a player will very rarely be ahead on all (or even the majority of) these factors at any given time. Being good/great at WC3 involves knowing which of these advantages you should focus on as well as which of these advantages you have at any given time and playing to their advantage.
Upkeep plays a huge role in this, because it sets up an inverse relationship between Army Size and Economy. This is important because Army Size is the primary factor in obtaining map control, and map control directly correlates with most of the other advantages noted earlier (Hero/Item Strength, Map positioning etc). Without upkeep, these ancilliary advantages would align much more closely to whomever had the biggest army and the game would be poorer for it.
Just on WAA, is there any way to get it if you don't own LotV? I remember reading/hearing it would be available with the SC2 starter pack but when I see it in the Arcade I'm told I need LotV.
On February 26 2016 08:18 Amarok wrote: Just on WAA, is there any way to get it if you don't own LotV? I remember reading/hearing it would be available with the SC2 starter pack but when I see it in the Arcade I'm told I need LotV.
You shouldn't need to? Arcade is free so there shouldn't be restrictions.
I liked wc3 back then i watched a lot of progaming between 2006-2009 mostly.Recently i watched after a lot of years some wc3 action again. The skill level is very low now and with no balance patch since 2010 i assume i can make some comments based on old and new data. The new patch will probably be only for hype to bring some publicity to warcraft again.The game is so broken thats beyond redeption.It was an amazing game for its era for sure but with the modern esports standards it looks like a farsocomedy.I watch dota2 and even it is a relatively balanced game the community has very low tolerance even for the slightest imba thing. The times have changed,if blizzard tries to resurrect wc3 as it is,they ll face the biggest flame of all time from new or old school players.I m not gonna play wc3 again without an HD remake(or wc4 even better),the game needs deep changes in gameplay and new engine.The game is too old. Its useless to talk about small changes while warden blinks alone into an army kills AM with 3 hits and then blinks out.The game needs a lot of work to be called esport again. Here some examples of the most imbalanced things in game. 1.The unbalance between heroes is huge for example some heroes have ultimates that can bring down a whole army like DH warden BM and some heroes like DK have jokes ultimates.This makes the late game unbalance hum cant win late vs ne.All heroes should stop gain experience in level 5.When the broken heroes reach level 6 the game turns redicoulus. 2.The game has 3 races, UD cant creep, cant expand ,cant do shit and only losing.Never won a WCG and even amazing players like Ted couldnt achieve anything because UD vs orc was an autolose. 3.The maps are unbalanced too with some serious mistakes like 1 shop and hf BM took the boots of speed.
The longest running weekly cup in Europe turns 50 today! To celebrate this event, Gera boosted the prizepool to 500$, and the European and Korean elite is gathering once again to fight for the crown on this beautiful sunday afternoon.
Tried to play this game with a friend using Iccup launcher, didn't work--told us the custom we made to play together didn't exist regardless of who hosted. RGC can only be used for DotA afaik, and Garena I've heard no longer works for WC3. I cannot use w3arena for technical reasons. Any hope to actually play this game with my friends? Also, anyone poking around for noobs to play with? I've got a few and we'd love to pick the game up again
On March 01 2016 02:01 shimmering119 wrote: Tried to play this game with a friend using Iccup launcher, didn't work--told us the custom we made to play together didn't exist regardless of who hosted. RGC can only be used for DotA afaik, and Garena I've heard no longer works for WC3. I cannot use w3arena for technical reasons. Any hope to actually play this game with my friends? Also, anyone poking around for noobs to play with? I've got a few and we'd love to pick the game up again
Could try playing on the Chinese server:
I'm also looking to get back into the game if you want to play.
EPT
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