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On February 06 2017 22:59 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +Guild Wars has an amazing dual class system (you can combine each class with any other class). It opens endless possibilities and combos but due to the fact that the skill set is limited to 8 skills at a time the issue of "weaknesses can get nulliefied" I have actually played guild wars and gave it a fair chance. But even with 8 skills, cant lets say a barbarian type get blink from the mage school? Thats huge man. Dont remember to many details so have mercy on me here. I hear this argument from time to time but is it really true? And if true, does it really matter? I want different builds that changes how you play or else its kinda pointless. In PoE, if you get a paladin aura on some other class, it doesnt really change how you play.
Uh, Warrior can get blink from Assassins in GW and yes that is huge. It's widely used in PvE but not necessary because there are other good options in warrior lines or you need the skill slot for another skill that is necessary for the build played. It's not used in PvP.
Warriors can't really go full caster because they have shitty energy regeneration (there are a few very niche options for melee caster builds for warrior). Assassins can go full caster but it's either full Assassin (they do have a caster line) or full ghost ritu (possible for almost every lass, which of course shouldn't work imho). Broken things that function the same with every class shouldn't exist in my eyes. GW isn't perfect in this regard, which is a shame because it could simply be fixed. But in the later stages of the game they decided rather to add more of that instead of removing it from the game. There are PvE skills which are powerful and aren't tied to any attribute so every class can use them to the same effect. I despise them so much. I wish Anet would never have implemented them. It's still rather an exception to the norm though if you look at the entirety of the skill system and the possibilities.
And yes the argument is true. I don't think changing a class to something completely different is inherently bad. It's bad when the uniqueness of a class isn't viable and only cross combos, that water down said uniqueness, are playing a role in the actual gameplay. If a warrior-warrior is widely viable I'm fine with having options that turn a warrior into some sort of melee caster or so. It has to feel distinct from both the warrior and the other class he is drawing skills from though.
Another important point in GW is that each class has a main attribute which can't be skilled by other classes. That way certain combos are out of the question while at the same time certain lines of skills can work completely different for one class or another. For example, it's possible to adapt a Mesmer to a full Mage by using the Mesmer's main attribute which reduces long casting times. That way you can chain a few long casting spells from the mage which opens possiblities for nukes, knock down combos etc. On the other hand you lose damage and have worse energy management. So yeah, you can make very similar builds (exact or almost exact same skill set) on different classes and they still feel different when playing them.
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GW build system was so good.
Then they went ahead with GW 2 and destroyed all the fun of build creation... Not so much because they removed dual classing though. They just removed everything that made it interesting :D.
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On February 06 2017 22:37 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2017 22:09 Miragee wrote:
According to Josh Sawyer they are trying to design the multi-classing system in a way that the single classes are still viable. They intend to bring downsides for picking a sub-class so you need about the advantages and disadvantages you get when picking single or dual class. I think that's a good idea.
Not every dual class system is bad btw. Guild Wars has an amazing dual class system (you can combine each class with any other class). It opens endless possibilities and combos but due to the fact that the skill set is limited to 8 skills at a time the issue of "weaknesses can get nulliefied" is very small (the skill system is very team based anyways). Vanilla classes without second class are widely viable/best choice for all sorts of tasks. In the end it comes down to how the whole system is designed. But if we can judge PoE 2 by PoE 1, Josh "no fun allowed" Sawyer will be sure to nerf them all into "not fun" category soon by a lot of patches.
To my experience, this is what happens with uncontrolled combinations way too often. You kind of have to make the overall class design very dull to make sure the combinations don't spin out of control.
That being said, I still like the multiclass system idea they have. With the right kind of stuff around it I could see it working. I guess I'm cautiously optimistic at this point, which is pretty good by my standards.
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On February 07 2017 04:34 Bacillus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2017 22:37 -Archangel- wrote:On February 06 2017 22:09 Miragee wrote:
According to Josh Sawyer they are trying to design the multi-classing system in a way that the single classes are still viable. They intend to bring downsides for picking a sub-class so you need about the advantages and disadvantages you get when picking single or dual class. I think that's a good idea.
Not every dual class system is bad btw. Guild Wars has an amazing dual class system (you can combine each class with any other class). It opens endless possibilities and combos but due to the fact that the skill set is limited to 8 skills at a time the issue of "weaknesses can get nulliefied" is very small (the skill system is very team based anyways). Vanilla classes without second class are widely viable/best choice for all sorts of tasks. In the end it comes down to how the whole system is designed. But if we can judge PoE 2 by PoE 1, Josh "no fun allowed" Sawyer will be sure to nerf them all into "not fun" category soon by a lot of patches. To my experience, this is what happens with uncontrolled combinations way too often. You kind of have to make the overall class design very dull to make sure the combinations don't spin out of control. That being said, I still like the multiclass system idea they have. With the right kind of stuff around it I could see it working. I guess I'm cautiously optimistic at this point, which is pretty good by my standards.
I much prefer them doing everything over the top instead of making everything dull. You don't need perfect class balance in a single player game. The minimum level needed is so that normal difficulty can be completed with all classes. All classes does not need to be equal past that. Them playing differently is more important than them being equally strong.
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You also don't want combinations that are extremely broken because you know people will abuse them then complain that the highest difficulties are too easy. Sure, most of us know to ignore those kinds of people but they still end up driving the discussions and shaping the perception of the game.
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On February 07 2017 05:38 andrewlt wrote:
You also don't want combinations that are extremely broken because you know people will abuse them then complain that the highest difficulties are too easy. Sure, most of us know to ignore those kinds of people but they still end up driving the discussions and shaping the perception of the game.
BG games had much stronger combinations and classes and it didn't make the game worse but better.
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On February 07 2017 05:38 andrewlt wrote:
You also don't want combinations that are extremely broken because you know people will abuse them then complain that the highest difficulties are too easy. Sure, most of us know to ignore those kinds of people but they still end up driving the discussions and shaping the perception of the game.
But this are the designers job, to not let something like this happen. I dont care if people "want" this. Its not good for the game, so it shouldnt exist.
Besides, i just want to play the game and create builds where i see fit - I do not want to look at the internet and analyse comments from people or watch guides just so i will know that this is the combo i shouldnt create because then the game become to easy even on the hardest difficulty.
Challenging and fun gameplay should be the job and should be top priority and if it aint dont blame the players, blame the designers.
On February 07 2017 04:34 Bacillus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2017 22:37 -Archangel- wrote:On February 06 2017 22:09 Miragee wrote:
According to Josh Sawyer they are trying to design the multi-classing system in a way that the single classes are still viable. They intend to bring downsides for picking a sub-class so you need about the advantages and disadvantages you get when picking single or dual class. I think that's a good idea.
Not every dual class system is bad btw. Guild Wars has an amazing dual class system (you can combine each class with any other class). It opens endless possibilities and combos but due to the fact that the skill set is limited to 8 skills at a time the issue of "weaknesses can get nulliefied" is very small (the skill system is very team based anyways). Vanilla classes without second class are widely viable/best choice for all sorts of tasks. In the end it comes down to how the whole system is designed. But if we can judge PoE 2 by PoE 1, Josh "no fun allowed" Sawyer will be sure to nerf them all into "not fun" category soon by a lot of patches. To my experience, this is what happens with uncontrolled combinations way too often. You kind of have to make the overall class design very dull to make sure the combinations don't spin out of control. That being said, I still like the multiclass system idea they have. With the right kind of stuff around it I could see it working. I guess I'm cautiously optimistic at this point, which is pretty good by my standards.
Also in my experience, when you make multiclass it usually means the encounters in the game gets hurt aswell.
With no real weaknesses and strengths of the classes, the encounters will feel more bland and not have enough variation.
In PoE, i felt the encounters had very little variation and you played the same way pretty much all the time.
Iam still way more happy with dual class over multiclass and i still have hope, but as always, when the designers are set on something they wont change it.
EDIT: just thought about something. To "rescue" this kind of design, what if the developers designed some achievements with some very specific goals just for the challenging part.
For example:
"Play on the hardest difficulty"
"dont use guns on any character"
"party must consist of 1x, 2y, 2a and 1p"
"dont use spell x with spell y"
And to create some freedom for the player, it could be around 3-5 of these achievement with different restrictions and different party restrictions and while you finish one you get them all.
So you dont feel the need to finish them all.
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On February 07 2017 09:49 Foxxan wrote:
Also in my experience, when you make multiclass it usually means the encounters in the game gets hurt aswell.
With no real weaknesses and strengths of the classes, the encounters will feel more bland and not have enough variation.
Just a wink as an idea: I always like it when encounters in games draw from the same pool of skills as the player does.
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On February 07 2017 05:03 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2017 04:34 Bacillus wrote:On February 06 2017 22:37 -Archangel- wrote:On February 06 2017 22:09 Miragee wrote:
According to Josh Sawyer they are trying to design the multi-classing system in a way that the single classes are still viable. They intend to bring downsides for picking a sub-class so you need about the advantages and disadvantages you get when picking single or dual class. I think that's a good idea.
Not every dual class system is bad btw. Guild Wars has an amazing dual class system (you can combine each class with any other class). It opens endless possibilities and combos but due to the fact that the skill set is limited to 8 skills at a time the issue of "weaknesses can get nulliefied" is very small (the skill system is very team based anyways). Vanilla classes without second class are widely viable/best choice for all sorts of tasks. In the end it comes down to how the whole system is designed. But if we can judge PoE 2 by PoE 1, Josh "no fun allowed" Sawyer will be sure to nerf them all into "not fun" category soon by a lot of patches. To my experience, this is what happens with uncontrolled combinations way too often. You kind of have to make the overall class design very dull to make sure the combinations don't spin out of control. That being said, I still like the multiclass system idea they have. With the right kind of stuff around it I could see it working. I guess I'm cautiously optimistic at this point, which is pretty good by my standards. I much prefer them doing everything over the top instead of making everything dull. You don't need perfect class balance in a single player game. The minimum level needed is so that normal difficulty can be completed with all classes. All classes does not need to be equal past that. Them playing differently is more important than them being equally strong.
Yeah, that probably should be the goal. I guess it's still often nightmarish to reach even a so-so balance if the broken combinations are too obvious. It doesn't look good if first week streamers are crushing the game on hardest difficulty with some monotone build while others are struggling to complete normal difficulty withouth abusing the system.
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What has the internet done to us? -.-'
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Disseminate infomation on bad game design.
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I just checked out their campaign and saw they actually created an investment scheme for it instead of just having the normal funding for in game stuff. Seems likely to return a positive return on the investment, low risk, decent reward which is why it filled up fast I guess.
https://www.fig.co/campaigns/deadfire/invest
Will be interesting to see if I miss out on a lot by not having played White Marsh, doubt I will ever play it due to not wanting to replay the campaign up until that point a 4:th time.
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On February 09 2017 16:03 Yurie wrote:I just checked out their campaign and saw they actually created an investment scheme for it instead of just having the normal funding for in game stuff. Seems likely to return a positive return on the investment, low risk, decent reward which is why it filled up fast I guess. https://www.fig.co/campaigns/deadfire/investWill be interesting to see if I miss out on a lot by not having played White Marsh, doubt I will ever play it due to not wanting to replay the campaign up until that point a 4:th time.
All games being crowdfunded on Fig have that option. That is the main difference between Fig and KS.
Also it is one of main reasons why PoE 2 got so much money (or why Wasteland 3 before it got a lot), today the people that funded KSs in 2012 with big monies no longer want to as they got either disappointed by unmet promises or consider all those games to have earned enough of their own money with sales so they don't need to invest more than minimal.
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Canada5565 Posts
Berath's Blessing is a feature I really wanted in Pillars 1. Great idea, and I think they will reach 2.6. Now I'm wondering what the 2.8 goal will be!
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On February 09 2017 16:03 Yurie wrote:I just checked out their campaign and saw they actually created an investment scheme for it instead of just having the normal funding for in game stuff. Seems likely to return a positive return on the investment, low risk, decent reward which is why it filled up fast I guess. https://www.fig.co/campaigns/deadfire/investWill be interesting to see if I miss out on a lot by not having played White Marsh, doubt I will ever play it due to not wanting to replay the campaign up until that point a 4:th time.
This is going to make a lot of gamers realize why sequels get a lot more funding than original games.
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That last update was pretty kick-ass.
All in all it already seems to be a much better game than PoE1.
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On February 12 2017 18:26 True_Spike wrote:
That last update was pretty kick-ass.
All in all it already seems to be a much better game than PoE1.
The only thing I hope for is that the general writing/implementation of the story is better.
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15 hours left to go 
I've seen all the Q&A's on youtube so far and Obsidian seems to have a grip on what went wrong in the original game and are keen on fixing it. I upped my pledge and grabbed the DLC season pass as well.
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There was some quick glimpse that suggested the stronghold is replaced by a ship you use to move around. At least on paper it seems like a nice idea. Strongholds often get kind of abandoned when you enter longer storymode bits. Meanwhile a ship probably stays much more relevant whenever necessary, a little like Normandy worked in Mass Effect trilogy.
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Do you guys enjoy the stronghold upgrading parts? I found it to be boring busywork in both PoE and Tyranny.
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EPT
