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PhoenixVoid
Canada32743 Posts
On January 29 2017 09:00 Wegandi wrote: Isn't the spiritual successor to BG2 supposed to be Torment: Tides of Numenera? It's official release date is about a month away :p T:ToN, not PoE2, is the spiritual successor to Planescape:Torment. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On January 29 2017 09:20 Nebula wrote: And yet NWN had a plethora of sub classes and had IMO the most complex character building in any RPG to date due to the multiclassing it provided. You could have two subclasses and it just made the game super interesting and added a ton of longevity. Neverwinternights? Is it different from baldursgate2? Not that i have played BG2 alot but i scratched the surface.. Anyhow, what so interesting about it? I get it, people like to feel powerful and when the question pops up "which class is most fun", people can start to talk about "this class x is really fun, so powerful". So power=fun for many, which in a sense is fun but not "gameplay-fun" if you know what i mean? And iam not saying you are one of these people, but if you are then fine if you aint then i would like to hear whats so fun about it. For example, without multi and 2sub classes and stuff, it feels like it has more flavor while you play that particular class, it has its weaknesses and strengths. If you can multiclass, the weaknesses kinda get removed while at the same time, its harder for the opponent to make plays against this particular class as well, and vice versa. Even in singleplayer games it matters because if the enemy has moves against you, it would be more varied gameplay while also more depth in direct combat. I played PoE to act 3 and the fights are pretty much the same and i think one big reason for that is because of what i described in this post. EDIT: Also, if you have no multi and sub class or whatever its called, i believe the builds could be more complex and varied as well, while at the same time more options in that particular class. For example, barbarian in poe doesnt have much variation unless when you mix it up with other classes. So instead of adding multiclass and so on, just add way more flavor for all classes instead. Maybe that was the case in the game you played. It just feels so bloody wrong and bad for gameplay but iam listening. | ||
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mikedebo
Canada4341 Posts
The atmosphere and art/sound direction in PoE was my favorite part. It sucked me in right away. I didn't care about the story that much, and the combat was decent, but it was the general production of the world and characters that kept me addicted until the endgame. I'm excited to see what they do with PoE2. (Damn I just remembered I never finished that dungeon under the homebase either!! I wonder if I remember enough about how to play the game to pick up my existing party again lol) | ||
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Yurie
11964 Posts
On January 29 2017 10:41 Foxxan wrote: Neverwinternights? Is it different from baldursgate2? Not that i have played BG2 alot but i scratched the surface.. Anyhow, what so interesting about it? I get it, people like to feel powerful and when the question pops up "which class is most fun", people can start to talk about "this class x is really fun, so powerful". So power=fun for many, which in a sense is fun but not "gameplay-fun" if you know what i mean? And iam not saying you are one of these people, but if you are then fine if you aint then i would like to hear whats so fun about it. For example, without multi and 2sub classes and stuff, it feels like it has more flavor while you play that particular class, it has its weaknesses and strengths. If you can multiclass, the weaknesses kinda get removed while at the same time, its harder for the opponent to make plays against this particular class as well, and vice versa. Even in singleplayer games it matters because if the enemy has moves against you, it would be more varied gameplay while also more depth in direct combat. I played PoE to act 3 and the fights are pretty much the same and i think one big reason for that is because of what i described in this post. EDIT: Also, if you have no multi and sub class or whatever its called, i believe the builds could be more complex and varied as well, while at the same time more options in that particular class. For example, barbarian in poe doesnt have much variation unless when you mix it up with other classes. So instead of adding multiclass and so on, just add way more flavor for all classes instead. Maybe that was the case in the game you played. It just feels so bloody wrong and bad for gameplay but iam listening. Multi classing has the huge advantage of having clear negatives and positives for the user. It also saves a lot on development time since you get diversity in builds across 8 classes by making one good ability for one of those classes. The usual negatives is that you don't get your strongest abilities in your main class and the positives being a few low level abilities from the other class. As I mentioned it does provide variety for the players for less development cost. Most people won't play through the game on 12 different character types, so allowing one to use two of them shows more of the stuff for the player on one go. Contrasted is your suggestion of diversity inside the class. Say you have the hours to make 100 abilities and spells for the game. To make diversity inside the class you end up with 2-3 classes to fit the stuff in. With a multiclass system you end up with 10 classes that are unique but can take a bite from the others to play differently, especially useful in party games where you might not want a thief to open locks and scout but instead let a ranger be a bit of a worse archer to fit those in. If you are only playing a single character through the entire game then classes are pointless. Just cram all the choices into the same character. That also makes story telling easier since you know you created a parkour specialist with lightning hammers. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
It's just not good game design to make the player make a ton of permanent character choices at the start of the game before they have experienced actually playing the game. And we all know how much whining there will be in certain quarters if reclassing is allowed. | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3426 Posts
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Bacillus
Finland1997 Posts
I don't care if it it's subclasses or not, but I do care that the class system is exciting one way or the other. In original PoE for example they had item crafting, but in the end the item system was really dull and the only motivation was to occassionally craft something to kill the HP sponge enemy hordes a bit faster. | ||
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Nebula
England780 Posts
It's most likely going to take the BG2 route, where it changes your class very slightly and just gives a bit more flavour. E.G. Paladin with subclass Undead Hunter. Makes them better fighting undead. Not such a big deal. If they went the NWN route, i would be crazy happy but i doubt that's going to happen. | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3426 Posts
On January 29 2017 19:29 Bacillus wrote: I don't care if it's subclasses or not, but it's really worrying how they're limiting themselves with the promises already. If later on they realize the system doesn't really benefit from subclasses, they're still stuck with them. Rather than focusing on doing whatever makes the game exciting they're focused on filling a long checklist of features they promised to do and that force certain design approaches. I don't care if it it's subclasses or not, but I do care that the class system is exciting one way or the other. In original PoE for example they had item crafting, but in the end the item system was really dull and the only motivation was to occassionally craft something to kill the HP sponge enemy hordes a bit faster. I doubt most of the stretch goals weren't going to be in the game without the crowd funding process, given how reasonable and well-fitting they are so far. I do agree about itemization - super bland and boring compared to BG2. | ||
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Bacillus
Finland1997 Posts
On January 29 2017 21:38 True_Spike wrote: I doubt most of the stretch goals weren't going to be in the game without the crowd funding process, given how reasonable and well-fitting they are so far. I do agree about itemization - super bland and boring compared to BG2. The problem is that they have to put the features in after stretch goals. If they realize that multiclassing is somehow problematic in balancing or stops them from doing something interesting with single class characters, they can't just cut it out and focus on the stuff that works. It's kind of like movies usually have deleted scenes for a reason. Sometimes it's necessary to cut out even decent parts to improve the final product. Through the strectch goals they're giving away possibilities to do this. | ||
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Jutranjo
Slovenia140 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
From a devlopment side of things, i can understand why they do this but from a gameplay perspective i cant understand it at all. Although its worth to say dualclassing feels better than multiclassing.. Infact its potential here is to go further and when mixing things with another class that spell becomes something different but that aint happening on the market anywhere i can see so they arent there yet even. If you are only playing a single character through the entire game then classes are pointless. Just cram all the choices into the same character. That also makes story telling easier since you know you created a parkour specialist with lightning hammers. But you aint playing one class even with only one playthrough, you are playing with more, at most 6 at a time since you have companions. Even if you decice to only go with 4 classes in your party, thats 4/12 classes played and if there are no multiclasses and whatnot you can have deep variation on the same class in your party. Feels alot better that way. You can have variation now aswell with multiclass but its not the same. | ||
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Yurie
11964 Posts
On January 30 2017 03:29 Foxxan wrote: But you aint playing one class even with only one playthrough, you are playing with more, at most 6 at a time since you have companions. Even if you decice to only go with 4 classes in your party, thats 4/12 classes played and if there are no multiclasses and whatnot you can have deep variation on the same class in your party. Feels alot better that way. You can have variation now aswell with multiclass but its not the same. I did run through PoE with a single character once. It was also not aimed at this genre of RPGs but more at ARPGs that often has minimal class choices since you kind of have a 1 character party with some short term companions. | ||
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Bacillus
Finland1997 Posts
On first impression the system seems pretty intuitive and functional. At best it can give quite a bit of flexibility to character leveling and all that. Hopefully the characters and classes still have enough strong features in them though, it's pretty to end up with a bloated mix of similar classes with so many potential combinations. One thing I feel a bit uncomfortable is if they keep using the same stat system for base stats. It's confusing enough with mighty wizards and intellectual barbarians already, adding multiclasses to that is going to be even more obscure probably. Both the D&D and S.P.E.C.I.A.L stat systems have their weaknesses and limitations, but they feel much more tangible in many ways. On it's own, the multiclassing system looks nice. Hopefully they can make it dance with the rest of the character system. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Also at that "When is multiclassing bad" they didnt write down "weaknesses can get removed or nullified". Which is really big, kinda worrysome they didnt write that down.... :S | ||
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Nebula
England780 Posts
On February 05 2017 09:31 Foxxan wrote: To me which prefer single classes 100%, nice to see that you can only mix two classes. So iam much more happy about that than if you can mix several. Also at that "When is multiclassing bad" they didnt write down "weaknesses can get removed or nullified". Which is really big, kinda worrysome they didnt write that down.... :S Seeing as you're so dead set against multiclassing, care to tell me what games you've played where it's been an issue? You said you barely touched BG, havent tried NWN. So what games? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Played more than these such as guildwars as well. Cant say i liked it in any of those games and would prefer solo classes. | ||
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Miragee
8617 Posts
Not every dual class system is bad btw. Guild Wars has an amazing dual class system (you can combine each class with any other class). It opens endless possibilities and combos but due to the fact that the skill set is limited to 8 skills at a time the issue of "weaknesses can get nulliefied" is very small (the skill system is very team based anyways). Vanilla classes without second class are widely viable/best choice for all sorts of tasks. In the end it comes down to how the whole system is designed. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On February 06 2017 22:09 Miragee wrote: According to Josh Sawyer they are trying to design the multi-classing system in a way that the single classes are still viable. They intend to bring downsides for picking a sub-class so you need about the advantages and disadvantages you get when picking single or dual class. I think that's a good idea. Not every dual class system is bad btw. Guild Wars has an amazing dual class system (you can combine each class with any other class). It opens endless possibilities and combos but due to the fact that the skill set is limited to 8 skills at a time the issue of "weaknesses can get nulliefied" is very small (the skill system is very team based anyways). Vanilla classes without second class are widely viable/best choice for all sorts of tasks. In the end it comes down to how the whole system is designed. They plan to let you get subclass for both classes in your multiclass. I am pretty sure people are going to find really strong combination in week 1 :D But if we can judge PoE 2 by PoE 1, Josh "no fun allowed" Sawyer will be sure to nerf them all into "not fun" category soon by a lot of patches. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Guild Wars has an amazing dual class system (you can combine each class with any other class). It opens endless possibilities and combos but due to the fact that the skill set is limited to 8 skills at a time the issue of "weaknesses can get nulliefied" I have actually played guild wars and gave it a fair chance. But even with 8 skills, cant lets say a barbarian type get blink from the mage school? Thats huge man. Dont remember to many details so have mercy on me here. It opens endless possibilities I hear this argument from time to time but is it really true? And if true, does it really matter? I want different builds that changes how you play or else its kinda pointless. In PoE, if you get a paladin aura on some other class, it doesnt really change how you play. | ||
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