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vanskater
United States146 Posts
On June 24 2013 01:35 solsken wrote: I'm so sad the skillchain system wasn't brought over from FFXI. One of the best parts of FFXI combat. this is indeed lame... | ||
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Ramong
Denmark1706 Posts
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
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solsken
Sweden182 Posts
As previously mentioned the skillchain system in FFXI was something unique and put FFXI combat in it's own cathegory. I can understand that this exact system would be hard with these multiple enemies with lower health that every generic MMO throws at us today but I still feel it's a wasted opportunity to not take that unique aspect from it's predecessor and build on it. When you take the classes as they are now I feel they are very uncomplicated and flat, they try to build a skillbased quick paced combat system but fail to put in the depth that other MMO's do with talent trees and such. As a Thaumaturge you have two skills for example, Blizzard and Fire and nothing else. No chance to do anything differently then just cast those two day in and day out until eternity? Another thing is the inherent monster resists, in FFXI you always had to work your spells and weaponskills around what element the monster was most vulnerable to, this is as far as I've seen not something you take into consideration in FFXIV since all skills do the same damage to whatever monster you throw it at. (Hello casting fire on a mob made of fire) Are there any NMs in the beta? I know they got introduced in 1.0 sometime and maybe they just keep them out of the beta because you don't wanna spoil it all. Anyhow they need to be there at release. Just a few points I've been mulling over during my time with the beta. Ofcourse alot of things have been done oh so very right, like atmosphere in the world, music, storyline and such. | ||
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nota
United States231 Posts
On June 24 2013 07:14 solsken wrote: I can't help but compare FFXIV to FFXI and in that regard there's alot of disappointment when it comes to game mechanics. As previously mentioned the skillchain system in FFXI was something unique and put FFXI combat in it's own cathegory. I can understand that this exact system would be hard with these multiple enemies with lower health that every generic MMO throws at us today but I still feel it's a wasted opportunity to not take that unique aspect from it's predecessor and build on it. When you take the classes as they are now I feel they are very uncomplicated and flat, they try to build a skillbased quick paced combat system but fail to put in the depth that other MMO's do with talent trees and such. As a Thaumaturge you have two skills for example, Blizzard and Fire and nothing else. No chance to do anything differently then just cast those two day in and day out until eternity? Another thing is the inherent monster resists, in FFXI you always had to work your spells and weaponskills around what element the monster was most vulnerable to, this is as far as I've seen not something you take into consideration in FFXIV since all skills do the same damage to whatever monster you throw it at. (Hello casting fire on a mob made of fire) Are there any NMs in the beta? I know they got introduced in 1.0 sometime and maybe they just keep them out of the beta because you don't wanna spoil it all. Anyhow they need to be there at release. Just a few points I've been mulling over during my time with the beta. Ofcourse alot of things have been done oh so very right, like atmosphere in the world, music, storyline and such. Not sure what NMs are, but if they are referring to world boss type/ unique monster spawns, yes there were some in the beta. I posted a picture of a group I was in downing them at the end of page 7. They are part of fates. The golem was super easy, and the cancer crab took a while (13 minutes) to down. I maxed out the thaumaturge in the beta and theres a bit more than just ice and fire. So far it ends up like this: fire I til low on mana -> transpose -> thunder II, thunder I -> fire III -> fire I. Cast thunder II when thunderhead procs at low mana. Higher levels will have ice III and thunder III and a proc for instant fire III procs. Add in archer/monk dps cds at the beginning of fire I spam. The developer stated that they didnt want resist/ immunities for mobs since they would encourage stacking of certain classes. | ||
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solsken
Sweden182 Posts
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nota
United States231 Posts
On June 24 2013 07:51 solsken wrote: NMs or Notorius Monsters in FFXI were timed spawns of named monsters that dropped special loot. Something you spent time camping and farming. The Fate monsters doesn't drop anything as far as I've seen? Fancy thing about NM's in FFXI were that items that dropped from the lowest of the NM's could be part of your gear up to really high levels and even in your endgame attire. I dont know if i encountered anything like that in the beta. The only unique monster spawns other than those i mentioned earlier were hunting log targets that spawned in fates, although i dont think they drop anything. There were also unique hunt targets for grand company hunting logs that randomly spawned in certain leves in an area that were required for lvling up the company rank. Its possible if they are higher lvl mobs that they just didnt put them in the beta or I just didnt see any. | ||
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Infernal_dream
United States2359 Posts
It still exists on an individual skill level. You use x skill before y skill because x skill gives y skill a modification if used in that order. I played 11 and loved the skillchains but it's being done by every MMO and i'm getting tired of it. It was cool originally because it was new, now it's standard. As for NM's and other end game stuff...well the game hasn't even been released. The story isn't even fully implemented so how can we make comments on what is going to exist? Even if you have a level 50 character I highly doubt they've implemented everything at that level. | ||
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nota
United States231 Posts
On June 24 2013 08:37 Infernal_dream wrote: To those complaining about the lack of skill chaining. It still exists, it's just not the same exact system 11 had. Why? Because every single MMO is doing skill chains now. Tera has it, aion has it, rift has it, so on and so forth. It's become part of the equation, why would they put in something that doesn't differentiate themselves? It still exists on an individual skill level. You use x skill before y skill because x skill gives y skill a modification if used in that order. I played 11 and loved the skillchains but it's being done by every MMO and i'm getting tired of it. It was cool originally because it was new, now it's standard. As for NM's and other end game stuff...well the game hasn't even been released. The story isn't even fully implemented so how can we make comments on what is going to exist? Even if you have a level 50 character I highly doubt they've implemented everything at that level. tbh if skill chains are as i understand from your statement, why would anyone really care about them? Having to cast x y z in a certain order to do more damage isnt more interesting than just mashing on one button since there isnt any new decision making a player has to make. Proc based or resource/timing based decisions are much more interesting in tab-target games anyways. Casting the same 3 dots/spells in a row every time is less interesting than having 3 dots on different timers and having to time casts to prevent clipping. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On June 24 2013 08:37 Infernal_dream wrote: To those complaining about the lack of skill chaining. It still exists, it's just not the same exact system 11 had. Why? Because every single MMO is doing skill chains now. Tera has it, aion has it, rift has it, so on and so forth. It's become part of the equation, why would they put in something that doesn't differentiate themselves? It still exists on an individual skill level. You use x skill before y skill because x skill gives y skill a modification if used in that order. I played 11 and loved the skillchains but it's being done by every MMO and i'm getting tired of it. It was cool originally because it was new, now it's standard. As for NM's and other end game stuff...well the game hasn't even been released. The story isn't even fully implemented so how can we make comments on what is going to exist? Even if you have a level 50 character I highly doubt they've implemented everything at that level. Okay that good to know but is there anything distinctively different from the combat system compared to other MMO then? From what I see from the limited amount of video and picture it just looks like a generic tab targeting combat that closely resemble WoW. Which is not bad in its own way since there are cool stuff that they added too such as limit break and stuff but is there anything else that make it stands out compared to other MMO combat wises? | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On June 24 2013 07:51 solsken wrote: NMs or Notorius Monsters in FFXI were timed spawns of named monsters that dropped special loot. Something you spent time camping and farming. The Fate monsters doesn't drop anything as far as I've seen? Fancy thing about NM's in FFXI were that items that dropped from the lowest of the NM's could be part of your gear up to really high levels and even in your endgame attire. Sure was awesome camping an NM for 8 hours only to lose the pop to some botting asshole. NM's in ffxi were an abomination and especially so in regard to kings. It's why SE eventually changed it all to rare/ex loot and a ??? pop system. Idk if you camped kings back in the day but that shit is a gaming horror story. "Hey remember that time we spent 2 months camping Nidhogg and we never actually got to fight him?" | ||
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
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nota
United States231 Posts
On June 24 2013 08:55 SheaR619 wrote: Okay that good to know but is there anything distinctively different from the combat system compared to other MMO then? From what I see from the limited amount of video and picture it just looks like a generic tab targeting combat that closely resemble WoW. Which is not bad in its own way since there are cool stuff that they added too such as limit break and stuff but is there anything else that make it stands out compared to other MMO combat wises? Its basically wotlk- wow mechanics with GW2's dynamic events when leveling. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On June 24 2013 08:49 nota wrote: tbh if skill chains are as i understand from your statement, why would anyone really care about them? Having to cast x y z in a certain order to do more damage isnt more interesting than just mashing on one button since there isnt any new decision making a player has to make. Proc based or resource/timing based decisions are much more interesting in tab-target games anyways. Casting the same 3 dots/spells in a row every time is less interesting than having 3 dots on different timers and having to time casts to prevent clipping. they aren't, Skillchains were unique becasue they involved two or more different players (unless you were a certian class that could SC off themselves) doing skills in a certian order to cause the effect. The reason Square probly thinks we don't care is they scaled poorly compared to just casting high damage skills as soon as you hit 100tp and people stopped using them except in certian NMs like Fafnir to increase the Thunder IV damage. but for the most part people just dropped skillchains as the game got older (I quit just before wings came out so it may have changed) As also mentioned in that post Elemental weaknesses were also sadly not very important unless the monster had an immunity, because of the nature of how you learn spells(you learn stone and thunder of the same tier ~5-8 levels apart so whatever you most recently learned was always the best, which at 75 was Thunder IV. | ||
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geno
United States1404 Posts
I really liked the fundamental concept of skillchains and magic bursts in FFXI. It was a pretty beautiful combination of understanding the enemy's elemental weaknesses, how certain skills function together, and perfecting coordination and timing between party members. It took a lot of skill to execute well, and was extremely satisfying to do the full thing flawlessly. In the end, it wasn't quite as effecient as just burning things down, but that seems to me a problem of design that they should have been able to work around if they were committed to reintroducing such a system. An example of what it might look like for anyone who never played ffxi: Say an EXP party had 2 melee damage dealers (let's say a Dark Knight and Warrior), a Black Mage, Tank (usually Paladin or Ninja), and 2 supports (White mage, Bard, or Red Mage). This type of setup was pretty common early in the game's lifespan. A skillchain would require some element of coordination and skill from pretty much every member of the party. Each type of skillchain would give bonus magic damage to a specific element or set of elements upon completion for a brief window. So the melees (often including the tank) would need to know which skills to do in which order to produce a specific type of skillchain to benefit a certain mob's elemental weakness. This meant they had to know enemy types and weaknesses, and how their weapon's skills interacted with various other job's weapon's skills. The Black mage needs to intimately know the casting time of his spells to land the correct spell at the correct moment to get the bonus damage. The supports can time their own disables/debuffs/nukes with this effect as well, though that was less utilized. And on top of that, the whole chain of timings can be turned on it's head with certain spells (ancients) where the Black mage has such an extremely long cast time that must start first, forcing the melees to time their skills so the skill chain ends just before the black mages spell goes off rather than the other way around. To me, that's really cool. In practice, even before people turned to other tactics for increased efficiency, it was rarely used to full potential because you could almost never count on random pubs to know everything. But when you did find someone competent, either who knew what to do already or was quick to learn, it was just awesome. Hitting a 3 part chain flawlessly with optimal skills for a specific mob and landing every magic burst, with even the supports and maybe even melees (dark knight with drain / paladin with holy) involved was just so damn satisfying. It added a lot of depth to the system and would force a decent amount of variety in playstyle as you adjust to different mob types and party compositions. I haven't played too much FF14 yet, but of what I've seen from Thamaturge, that kind of depth just doesn't feel like it is there. Efficiency seems to be more about chain casting and knowing what to do next for optimal time usage. That has it's own draw, I guess, but playing as a mage, I much prefer when mastering timing and knowing resistances are valued more. Where sometimes the best thing to do for overall efficiency is just rest and get MP back while waiting for your next opportunity to get an insane magic burst to make up for the time. Or when you put your damage in your party's hands, casting an ancient and trusting the rest to hit their timings for your spell to do its best. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On June 24 2013 09:18 nota wrote: Its basically wotlk- wow mechanics with GW2's dynamic events when leveling. That sounds very disappointing because I only care about end game mainly. Those GW2 mechanics are probably great in the beginning but it doesnt mean anything once you maxed out and with a repetitive and outdated combat system I am pretty disappointed. Either way, I am in it for the adventure and the story so it w/e for me. I honestly believe TERA/Elder scrolls combat system is the way of the future and the current tab targeting is pretty outdated. Not saying that a tab targeting game can not be good and I hope this one is one of those that are good. | ||
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nota
United States231 Posts
On June 24 2013 13:11 SheaR619 wrote: That sounds very disappointing because I only care about end game mainly. Those GW2 mechanics are probably great in the beginning but it doesnt mean anything once you maxed out and with a repetitive and outdated combat system I am pretty disappointed. Either way, I am in it for the adventure and the story so it w/e for me. I honestly believe TERA/Elder scrolls combat system is the way of the future and the current tab targeting is pretty outdated. Not saying that a tab targeting game can not be good and I hope this one is one of those that are good. I doubt there will ever be a game with the sheer amount of end game content that wow has/had. The only mmo with what I feel is compelling combat, TERA, has suffered because of slow content development. I dont see any mmo coming out that matches WOW's content or TERA's gameplay. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On June 25 2013 12:19 nota wrote: I doubt there will ever be a game with the sheer amount of end game content that wow has/had. The only mmo with what I feel is compelling combat, TERA, has suffered because of slow content development. I dont see any mmo coming out that matches WOW's content or TERA's gameplay. TERA gameplay was probably the best combat I ever had in any MMO while having pretty good graphic.It biggest downfall was because of the slow content development. In pvp or pve the combat was able to make every fight very engaging and rewarded good player. There was also a large skill cap. While WoW constantly makign expansion left and right has allowed it to have so much end game content to actively make it interesting. I think Final Fantasy 14 is going to have to have exceptional PvE content for it to compete. Knowing Square Enix, I got a feeling they might be able to crank up a strong enough story and world that might be able to entice players. Although I am quite unsure due to them sucking lately. I think the biggest question is was Square Enix able to turn this shitty game into a amazing game or just an OKAY game. From what I know, it didnt get much attention at E3 and the MMO that got the most attention was elder scrolls. Going to be an interesting road to see how this goes! I am going to be buying this game anyways to see how it goes :q | ||
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Jyaki
Australia170 Posts
Did not have version 1.0. Will be getting ARR. I understand that phase 3 data will not roll over to phase 4, but will phase 4 data roll over to release? And what's going to happen to early access? | ||
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
On June 25 2013 18:52 Jyaki wrote: Quick question, couldn't find the answer anywhere. Did not have version 1.0. Will be getting ARR. I understand that phase 3 data will not roll over to phase 4, but will phase 4 data roll over to release? And what's going to happen to early access? From wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy old news (like more than a year old), I believe the original plan was open beta will be rolled into release. I do not know if it's still true though. Also all 1.0 will be rolled into release so there won't be a even start anyway. | ||
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