|
On March 18 2012 18:00 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 17:31 thuracine wrote:On March 18 2012 15:46 Ace wrote:
How can you claim Rondo isn't a top 5 PG then claim Rubio is on his way? Have you seen Rubio's FG%? Rubio is a rookie with the same numbers as Rondo, Rondo's assist would be down if he wasn't passing to Pierce, Allen, K.G. Don't get me wrong Rondo is my favorite celtic, last year when he dislocated his elbow in the playoffs and finished the game was one of my favorites from last year. He is still not top 5 though. Tony Parker, Derrick Rose, and Russel Westbrook are easily the top PG in the nba with D.William very close behind. If Westbrook wasn't valuable thunder wouldn't have given him a 80$ million this year. Durant/Westbrook best duo in the league next to Lebron/Wade, maybe even better because there so young and are still getting better. You're just making things up with no basis in reality. If Rondo's assists were weighted so heavily because he plays with good players then why don't other point guards on great teams put up high assist numbers, and why does Rondo still make plays no matter who is on the court with him? Point Guards that tend to put up high assist numbers for years can actually pass the ball. Tony Parker is definitely not better than Rondo. I can't even take any list where he's in the top and Chris Paul isn't for real. As for Durant/Westbrook - yes, they're very good. But they'd have to improve by some major, major leaps to be considered in the Lebron/Wade tier. Durant himself isn't close enough to either one yet for that to hold true. It might take some years or a radical approach by his Coach for us to see that happen. ETA: I actually just did a quick check of their numbers and Rubio wasn't even close to having the same numbers as Rondo.
Rubio a rookie. PPG: 10.6 RPG 4.2 APG 8.2 SPG 2.2 TO 3.2
Rondo a celtic PPG 13.4 RPG 4.8 APG 10.3 SPG 1.6 TO 3.7
Pretty damn close
Saying Rondo is better than Parker has to be a joke, you must not even watch games.
The only thing that lacks in Durant/ Westbrook duo is there defense.We will soon find out in the finals unless the Bulls stop the heat in the Eastern championship.
BTW i am a lakers fan and don't see the Thunder being stopped. #Kobe
|
i think the Lakers have a good shot at betting the Thunder.
that said,repeat,you heard it hear first !!!!
|
I'd always take a pass first PG over a shoot first one.
But I guess it's what you prefer and the system the particular player operates under.
|
United States22883 Posts
How many elite defensive point guards are there in the league right now?
|
On March 18 2012 18:30 thuracine wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 18:00 Ace wrote:On March 18 2012 17:31 thuracine wrote:On March 18 2012 15:46 Ace wrote:
How can you claim Rondo isn't a top 5 PG then claim Rubio is on his way? Have you seen Rubio's FG%? Rubio is a rookie with the same numbers as Rondo, Rondo's assist would be down if he wasn't passing to Pierce, Allen, K.G. Don't get me wrong Rondo is my favorite celtic, last year when he dislocated his elbow in the playoffs and finished the game was one of my favorites from last year. He is still not top 5 though. Tony Parker, Derrick Rose, and Russel Westbrook are easily the top PG in the nba with D.William very close behind. If Westbrook wasn't valuable thunder wouldn't have given him a 80$ million this year. Durant/Westbrook best duo in the league next to Lebron/Wade, maybe even better because there so young and are still getting better. You're just making things up with no basis in reality. If Rondo's assists were weighted so heavily because he plays with good players then why don't other point guards on great teams put up high assist numbers, and why does Rondo still make plays no matter who is on the court with him? Point Guards that tend to put up high assist numbers for years can actually pass the ball. Tony Parker is definitely not better than Rondo. I can't even take any list where he's in the top and Chris Paul isn't for real. As for Durant/Westbrook - yes, they're very good. But they'd have to improve by some major, major leaps to be considered in the Lebron/Wade tier. Durant himself isn't close enough to either one yet for that to hold true. It might take some years or a radical approach by his Coach for us to see that happen. ETA: I actually just did a quick check of their numbers and Rubio wasn't even close to having the same numbers as Rondo. Rubio a rookie. PPG: 10.6 RPG 4.2 APG 8.2 SPG 2.2 TO 3.2 Rondo a celtic PPG 13.4 RPG 4.8 APG 10.3 SPG 1.6 TO 3.7 Pretty damn close Saying Rondo is better than Parker has to be a joke, you must not even watch games. The only thing that lacks in Durant/ Westbrook duo is there defense.We will soon find out in the finals unless the Bulls stop the heat in the Eastern championship. BTW i am a lakers fan and don't see the Thunder being stopped. #Kobe
I'm not sure how good or bad you are at math but those numbers are pretty damn big gaps. You can use basketball-reference.com to look at their numbers adjusted Per 36 to try and get a bigger picture since Rubio plays less slightly less minutes and it still wouldn't be close. A difference of 2.8 ppg, .6 RPG, 2.1 APG, -.6 SPG, and 0.5 TPG is pretty freaking big over the course of a season. At best we can say Rubio, if he had a higher Usage Rate would be able to match Rondo's numbers. But that would require a big jump in activity which of course means Rubio needs more time in the league. But right now he isn't even close.
Rondo is better than Parker. Right now the only thing Parker does better than Rondo is score. I wouldn't even put Parker in my elite PG category as he's a pretty poor rebounder, doesn't rack up lots of steals, and doesn't shoot a ton of 3s. That isn't to say he's a bad player - he's very good. But he isn't exactly lighting the world on fire with anything he does. He'd have to be scoring at such a high rate to make up for the deficiencies in the other areas of his game (like the way Rondo does everywhere else) to be included in the conversation.
Westbrook and Durant have a lot more to do than work on than defense to being up there with Wade and Lebron. Scoring wise Kevin Durant is obviously in their realm, and both are good rebounders for their position just like Wade and Lebron. Both of them are probably even better at drawing fouls than the Miami duo, and they are both decent to very good playmakers. And that's about where it stops. The only guy that belongs in the conversation is Durant and as fucking good as he is he isn't even close to being the all around threat that Wade and Lebron are. He's almost got the scoring versatility but has the range, but doesn't have the playmaking, defense on or off the ball, playoff performances, all around dominance, and he's now getting his ball handling under control and it would be pretty insane if he reached Wade levels.
I'm not sure if I should even really take this seriously, but you can go watch what happened when the Miami duo was on seperate teams and see the kinds of numbers they put up. 23 yr old Wade and Lebron were ahead of the young superstars in the league now by a pretty big margin with Durant being the only exception.
On March 18 2012 22:32 Jibba wrote:
How many elite defensive point guards are there in the league right now?
Depends on what we're calling elite, but I listed a few a couple of pages back. There are actually a lot of really good defensive PGs but the problem is trying to watch all of them play is quite hard 
|
To be elite defensive point guard, one must not turn the ball over, because it's hard to call it good defense when the other team dunks all over you uncontested off a turnover. There are not that many elite point guards.
|
Ace, you said a page back about the top teams of a division getting seeded 1-3, but I believe it only means you are given home court advantage, Orlando still can place #3, and it should be Philly or Boston as the 4 seed.
"The top four seeds will be the three division winners plus the team with the next best record. Those four will be ordered by record (and tiebreakers if needed), so it's possible that two teams in the same division could hold the top two spots, with the other two division winners at Nos. 3 and 4.
Seeds 5 through 8 are the next four teams according to record (and tiebreakers if needed)."
http://www.nba.com/features/seedingprimer07.html
|
Ok good, so Orlando actually can possibily be a #2 seed. Anything to avoid them playing Atlanta again in the playoffs.
|
so I'm guessing the difference between D'antoni and Woodson is this
D'antoni: "run the offense through Lin. keep doing pick and rolls and make sure spacing is correct."
Woodson: "play some fucking defense" TO "play some fucking defense" TO "get your ass on the bench"
|
On March 19 2012 02:15 Ace wrote:
Ok good, so Orlando actually can possibily be a #2 seed. Anything to avoid them playing Atlanta again in the playoffs.
What scenario lands them a 2 seed? Passing the Heat?
|
Yea.
On March 19 2012 03:38 udgnim wrote:
so I'm guessing the difference between D'antoni and Woodson is this
D'antoni: "run the offense through Lin. keep doing pick and rolls and make sure spacing is correct."
Woodson: "play some fucking defense" TO "play some fucking defense" TO "get your ass on the bench"
Hilarious but true. Something tells me he wouldn't be afraid to bench Stat/Melo if they fuck up on D.
|
On March 18 2012 22:32 Jibba wrote:
How many elite defensive point guards are there in the league right now?
Zero.
|
On March 18 2012 16:59 Ace wrote:
Durant is taking almost 20 shots a game which is right around his career numbers and around where top offensive options would be shooting. Really, how many more shots do you want Durant to take without killing his efficiency and wearing himself out? He isn't built like Kobe or MJ.
If there is something about Westbrook that is a legit complaint it's that his assist numbers are way down, but that could be because Durant and Harden are doing more playmaking this year. Either way Westbrook is easily a top 5 PG and has a very, very good case for being #2. This year he's better than Rose due to Rose being injured and not having as many big games or better production. Right now Chris Paul is still #1, and then Westbrook, Rose, Rondo, Deron Williams and Nash are in the conversation with John Wall looking like the next big deal to come a long.
But do you think that westbrook shooting 19 times a game is viable in the long run?
btw his numbers are kinda like iverson's lol
|
Yes because he usually ragdolls opposing defenses, and more importantly: Ibaka as a third option isn't a go to, high usage option the way Chris Bosh, Z-Bo, or Amar'e are.
If say OKC started James Harden there is no way Westbrook would be shooting 19 times a game unless he improved his offensive versatility to a dramatic level.
ETA: But like I said before, if I'm one of the talking heads on TV I'm more worried about that huge drop in Assists more than his shot attempts. That can be pretty damaging in the long run if Durant doesn't share significant play making duties with him.
|
All this talk of point guards made me look up some Stockton numbers.
Check out his stats for his best season (7 years before the Jazz were in the finals)
17.2 ppg (11.8 FGA) 14.5 apg, 2.6 rbpg, 2.7 stpg, 51% fg, 41% 3s , 82% FT
|
On March 19 2012 05:26 Ace wrote:
Yes because he usually ragdolls opposing defenses, and more importantly: Ibaka as a third option isn't a go to, high usage option the way Chris Bosh, Z-Bo, or Amar'e are.
If say OKC started James Harden there is no way Westbrook would be shooting 19 times a game unless he improved his offensive versatility to a dramatic level.
ETA: But like I said before, if I'm one of the talking heads on TV I'm more worried about that huge drop in Assists more than his shot attempts. That can be pretty damaging in the long run if Durant doesn't share significant play making duties with him.
OKC is ranked 29th in team assists, for me that's a pretty big red light..
On March 19 2012 05:27 klaxen wrote:
All this talk of point guards made me look up some Stockton numbers.
Check out his stats for his best season (7 years before the Jazz were in the finals)
17.2 ppg (11.8 FGA) 14.5 apg, 2.6 rbpg, 2.7 stpg, 51% fg, 41% 3s , 82% FT
Stockton is op, those numbers are crazy
|
Well you can still win a lot of games with below average Team Assists - but you'd better be shooting a high FG%. Like Miami last year, OKC is shooting the 2nd best league wide FG% even though they don't dominate in Assists which somewhat makes sense. They generate so many easy shots + have 3 relatively efficient high volume scorers that they don't need to pass the ball around much.
BUT - just like Dallas and Chicago showed last year, once one of those players struggles if you don't have someone who can generate enough assists to keep the defenses off of you things can get shitty really fast.
|
United States22883 Posts
While people are quick to point out Stockton had great shooters around him at all times, were called more tightly back then. Today, they've become pretty liberal about rewarding assists.
|
how do you define an assist? scoring with in 3 second of catching the pass?
|
A pass leading directly to a bucket, aka usually the person receiving the pass doesn't need to take too many dribbles or make many moves to score.
However, since assists are rewarded by the home score keepers it can become subjective as to what consistutes putting a guy in easy position to score.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
