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On May 13 2011 16:10 Durantula wrote:
1) D-wade is a helluva lot better on-the-ball defender than anyone the Pacers or Hawks had to throw at rose.
2) Right so instead of not rotating/switching correctly, they will just get toasted in isos with lebron/wade. Lets face it the bulls do not have a shutdown wing defender, which is probably gonna lead to them getting torched by lebron.
3) Playoff fouls happen in the playoffs.
And lets be honest, the United Center is a fairly average homecourt. I'm not saying this with any bias, I live in Chicago, but the individual matchups just don't favor the bulls here. Coaching wise, the Bulls are much better off, so maybe that will make the difference.
1.) Wade can NOT defend Rose. Heat inside defense is subpar. I could see Rose gettin a lot of points at the basket if he can get by Wade. If Wade even defends Rose. I don't think they are gonna play him on Rose all the time.
2.) Bulls help-defense is good. Deng/Noah/Gibson are very active defenders. Bogans is decent. The heat should not be able to get to the basket very easily.
And how the hell is Deng not a lockdown-defender? Have you even seen him play at all? There aren't many better defenders in the whole league. They have won 3 games in the regular season and suddenly there is no way for them to defend isos and Lebron? Where is your reasoning behind that, your just stating stuff there without any proof.
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And how the hell is Deng not a lockdown-defender? Have you even seen him play at all? There aren't many better defenders in the whole league. They have won 3 games in the regular season and suddenly there is no way for them to defend isos and Lebron? Where is your reasoning behind that, your just stating stuff there without any proof.
Deng does not have the speed nor the athleticism to matchup with Lebron or wade. Yes, I watch him play all the time, I live in Chicago like I stated before. Deng is a good defender, but struggles against athletic wing players, which Lebron is by far the best at his position. And I'm stating my claims based on watching games, not citing states because to be honest I think stats are very limited for basketball. In many ways, stats in basketball (+/-, defensive rating) don't tell the whole story (some don't even tell a sliver of the story) and take away from understanding individual matchups and sets (which the majority of people do no understand).
All I'm saying is that if you throw Deng on Lebron in an iso, Lebron's talent will torch Deng. Deng is not fast enough to keep him from driving by him and not physical enough to body up on him. Nothing against Deng, but there is no one really who can play Lebron in an iso, and Deng in my eyes is not one of the better ones who can slow him down.
Also, I'm not saying Wade will lock down Rose, but I feel like he has the potential to. At the very least, he will give Rose a much harder time than he had in the first two series And if he does manage to lock him down, Chicago is screwed.
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I agree, stats don't paint the whole picture, but they are useful for shortened discussions like this (I don't have the time to pull up and edit all of the video from the season) and they can be helpful for understanding the game on top of (i.e. in addition to) actually watching it and understanding it. Watching the entirety of the season, Deng did one of the better jobs of any forward at defending LeBron. I know Deng looks skinny but he does have the physicality and the length to play close to James and discourage him from driving; between Deng's pestering and the help defense, LeBron will have a much harder time in this series than he did against Pierce (too old) and Iggy (good defender, no help). Obviously you don't completely shut James down, but Deng can definitely slow him, and their regular-season face-offs (particularly in this season) support this. Given that LeBron's offensive game is so painfully one-dimensional, he's not that complicated to defend.
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I would like to mention that Chris Bosh struggles like no other against Noah, that is one very positive matchup for the Bulls.
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I dont think Pierce was too slow, it was just a lack of another defender to come off the bench and lock down the wings, he (pierce) had Tony Allen before, and James Posey before that. Now he had Jeff Green which was still being worked into the rotation efficiently. You honestly need two good defenders to guard Lebron, and as mentioned earlier in the thread, the lack of an at the rim presence (no perkins, no shaq) encouraged Lebron to duck his head for the first couple games, which just racked up fouls on Pierce. Then with Rondo injured pierce was asked to do the largest offensive role, as well as the largest defensive role, it is just unfair to judge him based on him guarding Lebron, I mean he did a pretty good job on Melo for the most part, who has the same youth in him as Lebron.
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Durantula. You dont need to be as athletic as the person you are guarding to be able to stop him. You just need to stay in front of him and know the rotations. A large part of defense is bothering your opponent and limiting his movement.
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On May 13 2011 16:34 ilikejokes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 15:39 jmbthirteen wrote:On May 13 2011 14:31 ilikejokes wrote:On May 13 2011 13:41 jmbthirteen wrote:
Ha Bulls in 5? It took them 5 games to beat the Pacers.
Miami will win in 6 or 7. The Pacers managed to take one game off of a Bulls team that wasn't playing up to par. It took the Heat 5 games to beat the 76ers, and then 5 games to beat a neutered and aging Boston team playing with a 50% (at best) Rondo... it's also worth noting that: 1) the Pacers were throwing their 6'8" best defender at Rose, something the Heat can't do without leaving somebody practically unguarded 2) the Bulls' issues with man defense will be less of a factor against the ultra-un-balanced Heat than they were against the ultra-balanced Pacers 3) the Pacers (especially Jeff "Elbows" Foster) were getting away with some particularly violent fouls (even if a couple of them were upgraded to flagrant I after the game, it's not like that means you get extra possessions in a game that already ended) There's no way Miami wins in 6 unless Wade pulls another shady as hell move like he did slamming Rondo down onto the parquet. Winning in 7 would require them to take a game at the United Center (not happening). Any way you slice it I see the Bulls winning the series unless some miracle and/or cheating saves it for Wade and friends. Rose and Wade will likely cancel each other out every game and LeBron will barely win the match-up with Deng; but Boozer/Noah will have their way with Bosh/[heat center], Thibs will solve the Heat while Spoelstra can only hurt his team, and the Bulls' bench mob will outplay the Heat's lack of a supporting cast (in the playoffs thus far the Bulls bench is beating the Heat bench handily in every major statistical category except turnovers, where the Heat reserves barely have an edge that is more than accounted for by the enormous disparity in steals/blocks/rebounds etc.) Of course no matter what you see the Bulls winning, your a Chicago fan. I know exactly what happened in the Pacers series, I'm a Pacers fan. The reason the Pacers lost to the Bulls was they don't have a player on Rose's level and they don't have a consistent number 2 guy for Granger. Guess what? The Heat have 2 players above Rose's level and have a consistent 1, 2 punch. The Heat have 2 great players, 1 on-off guy (Bosh), and a bunch of stiffs. The Bulls have 1 great player, a well-rounded starting unit, and one of the best benches in the league. You don't win titles with 1 guy (and, really, not even with 2)--you win them one great player and a solid supporting cast.
No teams don't win with one great player. They win with multiple great players. Jordan and Pippen, Kobe and Shaq, Kobe and Pau, Pierce/Garnett/Allen, Duncan/Manu/Parker, Magic/Kareem, and so on. No one does it on their own, especially in the modern day. The heat have a very well-rounded starting unit. Wade/James/Bosh is by far the best trio in all of the league. Bibby plays well with them and Joel Anthony plays extremely well with them.
I said Chicago is deeper. But in the playoffs its about your best players. The Big 3 will all be playing a minimum of 40 mins a game and they can do that night in and night out. Chicago's bench gets neutralized just from that fact alone.
Show nested quote +Paul George and Dahanty Jones guarded Rose. Dwyane Wade and LeBron James can do the same. The Pacers chose to put their smaller point guards on Bogans/Korver (who did kill them). But the reason for this switch was more because Collison and Price are terrible defenders. Now when Bibby is in the game, he can't guard Rose, so Wade or LeBron will. But when Chalmers is in the game, he can guard Rose. No one can stop Rose, but they can make it more difficult. Miami is an outstanding defensive team. Much better than the Pacers. Miami is even playing better defense in the post season than the Bulls are. Paul George is 6'8" and the Pacers' best defender. Chalmers is smaller and a worse defender than Jones. Putting Wade on Rose is the Heat's best option (which is why they did it in crunch time of their regular season meetings) but even then Wade can only slow him down (as good of a defender as Wade is). As far as team defenses go, Miami has a 1/10th of a point edge in defensive rating for the playoffs, but the Bulls have a 1/10th of a point edge in offensive rating, so it's practically a wash there.
Yes George is tall and the Pacers defender, everyone knows this. Chalmers isn't as good, but he is still pretty damn good. And Wade is a better defender than George. Even LeBron can guard Rose. Miami has plenty of options to put on Rose. All will harass him rather well. Miami has played better teams than Chicago (Indy/Philly is a wash, but Boston>ATL by a mile). Watch the games and watch the two teams play defense, Miami plays better defense.
Show nested quote +And I find it funny how Bulls fans complain about Foster for his physical PLAYOFF basketball when Noah and Boozer are just as bad. Every damn rebound, Boozer just blatantly pushes his opponent, even when they are in the air, making it extremely dangerous. Oh and he tried to take out Hansbrough's legs when he had the steal and fastbreak dunk. But yeah, the Pacers were the only one getting away with physical play... Its called the playoffs, man up or get out. I don't have a problem with physical play. I prefer basketball like the slugfests of the 80's and early 90's. I play physically myself. Foster was throwing elbows at people's heads. He wasn't making a play for the ball. I didn't see any of Indiana's players getting taken out by Noah or Boozer. It's one thing to knock a guy off balance when you're fighting for a rebound and it's another thing entirely to elbow him in the face (or was Andrew Bynum's flagrant 2 on Barea just "playoff basketball" and not worthy of a 5-game suspension?).
What Foster did was no where near what Bynum did. Take off those rose colored glasses. It wasn't close. And yeah Noah and Boozer didn't land any elbows on Pacers heads, but Kurt Thomas knocked Tyler Hansbrough out. Hansbrough wasn't the same after that hit. So yeah, Chicago did their fair share of playoff fouls.
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Boston is a far better team than Atlanta. Sure Rondo was 50%, but Atlanta was playing without their starting point guard. So yeah... Oh and it took Chicago more games to beat Atlanta, than it did for Miami to beat Boston.
Boston was a better team than Atlanta, at least on paper, but Atlanta is younger and more athletic, and without Rondo playing 100% the Celtics offense is terrible. Miami has a clear advantage over the Celtics (athleticism in spades) that the Bulls don't have over Atlanta, but it's not an advantage that Miami has over the Bulls.
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Boston was and still is a better team than Atlanta. Yes Boston was without Rondo. But the Hawks were without their starting point guard too! I will take a Rondo-less Celtics over the Hawks any day of the week. You're crazy not too.
And Miami certainly has an athleticism advantage over Chicago. Rose is the only player on the Bulls that creates an athletic challenge for Miami. Miami has LeBron and Wade, two of the most athletic players to ever play the game. Bosh is more athletic than Boozer and same goes for Anthony over Noah.
Show nested quote +Keep living in fantasy land for now. Chicago is just the Cleveland Cavaliers of yesterday. They have one great player, but rely on him way too much. They play great defense, but in the playoffs all of the top teams do. The Cavaliers of yesterday? When the Cavs made the Finals they finished the season with 50 wins and had the 4th best defense in the league. So with the Bulls finishing with 12 more wins and the best or second-best defense (depending on the metric you use), comparing them to the Cavaliers of yesterday says they'll make the Finals (i.e. beat the Heat).
Yes the Cavaliers of yesterday. You know the team in 2010 that finished number one in the East with 61 wins and were a great defensive team. The one that fell short of the Finals. Or the ones in 2009 that finished number one in the East with 66 wins and were a great defensive team. That one fell short of the Finals too. So yeah, the Bulls are the Cavaliers of yesterday. A team lead by one great player, that plays harder than any other team in the regular season, especially on defense, only to fall short in the playoffs.
Show nested quote +Quite frankly your post lost all credibility when you say LeBron barely wins the match up with Deng. Seriously dude, get that shit outta here. Boozer/Bosh is a wash, both are extremely overrated, but Bosh is only asked to be the third option so its not as bad. Noah has an advantage over Joel Anthony, but not by a whole lot. Wade is way better than any SG on Chicago. Rose has a clear advantage at the point guard spot. Hi, did you look at the numbers? LeBron outscores Deng and that's about it. As far as other contributions go it's a wash. Hence, "barely." Here, let's compare their offensive and defensive ratings for their two regular season head-to-head match-ups (ORtg/DRtg): game 1: Deng 122/94, James 118/94. Basically a wash. game 2: Deng 102/103, James 129/103. James has a clear advantage on offense here but on defense they're a wash. "Barely."
Who gives a shit about numbers? Especially in the regular season. Going by numbers, Wade should have had a terrible series against the Celtics. What happened? He lit them up. Give me a break. LeBron is arguably the best player in the world. Loul Deng is a third option player who plays good defense. Danny Granger averaged 21.6ppg on 48% shooting in the first round against Deng. I love Granger, but he ain't close to LeBron. Regular season means next to nothing in the playoffs.
Since you like numbers so much, how about last years playoff numbers for James and Deng in the head to head match up
Deng: 18.8ppg, 5rpg, 1.4apg
James: 31.8ppg, 9.2rpg, 8.2apg
Yeah, LeBron James is barely better than Luol Deng, hahahahahahahaha
Show nested quote +Oh and Spolestra is a much better coach than you give him credit for. He is a mini Pat Riley. Riley wouldn't have kept him as head coach if he didn't think he could get the job done ( see firing of Stan Van Gundy in 2006). From and X's and O's standpoint, Riley isn't that great of a coach. His major feat came in motivating Magic's Lakers into giving more of a fuck about basketball and less about their own stats. Yeah with Magic AND Kareem (a past-his-prime Kareem, but still), Riley managed to win some titles. But he accomplished practically nothing until Kobe gift-wrapped Shaq's ass for him, and even then they only won the title thanks to the worst reffing in NBA history. Spoelstra is Riley's protege, sure, but that doesn't make him a good coach by any means. There are five year-olds who could run a better rotation on this Heat team than Spoelstra does. Stan van Gundy's mom died (or something??) in that season. Both of them maintain that he wasn't fired for performance reasons, although whether you believe that or not is up to you. What isn't disputable is van Gundy did have legitimate reasons to step down for the rest of the season, though.
Pat Riley is one of the best coaches of all time, there is no arguing this. He has won 5 NBA titles as a coach. Coaching is more than X's and O's. Thats what your assistants are for. How good of an X's and O's coach do you think Phil Jackson is? How you can say he did nothing before he got Shaq in Miami is ridiculous. He won 4 NBA titles before that time. Every single coach who has won a title has had great players.
SVG was "let go" because Riley knew the Heat would fall short with SVG coaching. It becomes more evident that is true as Orlando gets worse and worse. Riley would not let Spolestra coach this team if he didn't think they would win the title. His rotations are fine.
Show nested quote +Chicago has a better bench, but they also play much deeper than Miami. But Wade/James/Bosh all play about 40 mins a game. They don't rely on their bench. They rely on their starters. Chicago needs their bench to step up because of how horrible Boozer is as a second option. Dude is fucking terrible. Paid like a number one, plays like a number three. Re: Boozer -- playing with torn ligaments in your toe is kind of hard but he put up a 23-10-5 tonight, anyway. I wasn't thrilled with Boozer vs. the Pacers or the first 3 games vs Atlanta but these last 3 he seems to have stepped it up and is playing much better. His defense still isn't great but since nobody has to guard Miami's laughable rotation at the 5 he and Noah can tag-team Bosh.
Boozer played like shit against the Pacers and he hurt his toe in game 5. So... yeah about that... He finally stepped it up. But the Hawks don't play defense near the level that Miami does. Boozer won't do much.
Show nested quote +Miami wins in 6. They have the best players in the league. Rose won MVP, and I think he deserved it. But he is no Wade or LeBron. And thats what it comes down to. No one can do it alone. Thats why those two teamed up. Rose will learn this lesson very soon too.
Basketball is a team game (even NBA basketball!) and the Bulls have the better team.
Yes basketball is a team game. Hence why no team that relies on one player so much (ie the Bulls and Rose) wins a championship. Miami has been playing better all post season against better competition. Chicago has struggled a lot.
It's ok, you have your Rose colored glasses on right now. You're a fan, and thats great. You expect your team to win and you should. But at the end of the day, Miami will be playing in the NBA Championship.
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On May 13 2011 17:46 Holcan wrote:
I dont think Pierce was too slow, it was just a lack of another defender to come off the bench and lock down the wings, he (pierce) had Tony Allen before, and James Posey before that. Now he had Jeff Green which was still being worked into the rotation efficiently. You honestly need two good defenders to guard Lebron, and as mentioned earlier in the thread, the lack of an at the rim presence (no perkins, no shaq) encouraged Lebron to duck his head for the first couple games, which just racked up fouls on Pierce. Then with Rondo injured pierce was asked to do the largest offensive role, as well as the largest defensive role, it is just unfair to judge him based on him guarding Lebron, I mean he did a pretty good job on Melo for the most part, who has the same youth in him as Lebron.
I said he was "too old" not "too slow"  Pierce got tired and James didn't, and since man defense is as much about energy and fresh legs as anything it meant that he wound up severely overmatched. Plus, defending Melo's arsenal of offensive weapons is less about athleticism and more about being smart/experienced enough to defend it, which Pierce has in spades. Guarding Melo is different than guarding James.
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line opened at -183/+155, translates to ~62.8/37.2 in miami's favour. has since moved to -191/168 (~64.2/35.8 miami's favour). so early money on the heat, interesting given the celtics obv injury/age issues and how great the bulls have looked last 2 games
tbh the boston beatdown seems like a bit of a mirage, think this is closer than those lines suggest
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I don't want to flesh out arguments in this thread because of the blind fanboyism, but results should be enough to shut them up, so I'll just wait for those.
Seriously, there are a few posters in here that attempt to make good arguments and state their opinions but good arguments can't fight off mobs of fanboys; I don't feel like taking part  .
Just posting to say how excited I am for both semifinal matchups (or potential semifinal matchup).
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On May 13 2011 17:53 ilikejokes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 17:46 Holcan wrote:
I dont think Pierce was too slow, it was just a lack of another defender to come off the bench and lock down the wings, he (pierce) had Tony Allen before, and James Posey before that. Now he had Jeff Green which was still being worked into the rotation efficiently. You honestly need two good defenders to guard Lebron, and as mentioned earlier in the thread, the lack of an at the rim presence (no perkins, no shaq) encouraged Lebron to duck his head for the first couple games, which just racked up fouls on Pierce. Then with Rondo injured pierce was asked to do the largest offensive role, as well as the largest defensive role, it is just unfair to judge him based on him guarding Lebron, I mean he did a pretty good job on Melo for the most part, who has the same youth in him as Lebron. I said he was "too old" not "too slow" Pierce got tired and James didn't, and since man defense is as much about energy and fresh legs as anything it meant that he wound up severely overmatched. Plus, defending Melo's arsenal of offensive weapons is less about athleticism and more about being smart/experienced enough to defend it, which Pierce has in spades. Guarding Melo is different than guarding James.
I didnt mean to misquote you, but it is 5am here, give me some grace. My point is simply that Lebron is too great of a player to not have two lock down defenders who are well intune with your defensive scheme. Judging Pierce because of his lack of a capable bench player to give him valuble rest is just silly, when looking at stopped Lebron you look to how effective your 2nd and 3rd wing defenders can be, as 9 out of 10 games (this is probably close to 99/100 games) Lebron is going to outplay his matchup.
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On May 13 2011 17:49 jmbthirteen wrote:
No teams don't win with one great player. They win with multiple great players. Jordan and Pippen, Kobe and Shaq, Kobe and Pau, Pierce/Garnett/Allen, Duncan/Manu/Parker, Magic/Kareem, and so on. No one does it on their own, especially in the modern day. The heat have a very well-rounded starting unit. Wade/James/Bosh is by far the best trio in all of the league. Bibby plays well with them and Joel Anthony plays extremely well with them.
I said Chicago is deeper. But in the playoffs its about your best players. The Big 3 will all be playing a minimum of 40 mins a game and they can do that night in and night out. Chicago's bench gets neutralized just from that fact alone.
You're pretty generous with the word "great." Calling any of Pau, Manu, or Parker "great" is laughable. The Boston Big 3 have one truly great player--Garnett--and two really good but not great players. Magic was playing with a past-his-prime (and declining) Kareem. Jordan/Pippen and Shaq/Kobe are the only true tandems of greats that you mentioned, and both of those tandems had other good players on the roster (Grant, Cartwright, Kerr, Rodman, Kukoc; Fox, Grant, etc.). The original "Big Three" of Bird/McHale/Parish had two great players in Bird and McHale and a phenomenal bench.
Tim Duncan (4), Isiah Thomas (2), Walt Frazier (2), Hakeem Olajuwon (2), and Moses Malone (1) all won titles as the only great player on a team with a good supporting cast, to name a few. The Pistons won the title in 2005 with no great players.
Yes George is tall and the Pacers defender, everyone knows this. Chalmers isn't as good, but he is still pretty damn good. And Wade is a better defender than George. Even LeBron can guard Rose. Miami has plenty of options to put on Rose. All will harass him rather well. Miami has played better teams than Chicago (Indy/Philly is a wash, but Boston>ATL by a mile). Watch the games and watch the two teams play defense, Miami plays better defense.
Watch the games and watch the two teams play defense, Chicago plays better team defense by a landslide. LeBron and Wade play some of the best perimeter, one-on-one defense of any two players in the league, but the two of them can't defend every player on the floor.
What Foster did was no where near what Bynum did. Take off those rose colored glasses. It wasn't close. And yeah Noah and Boozer didn't land any elbows on Pacers heads, but Kurt Thomas knocked Tyler Hansbrough out. Hansbrough wasn't the same after that hit. So yeah, Chicago did their fair share of playoff fouls.
I'm not saying they were the same. You were pretty quick to explain Foster's flying elbows as "playoff fouls," even though they're flagrant fouls by definition. It's one thing to hack when making a play for the ball, it's another thing to blatantly hit a guy in the face.
Boston was and still is a better team than Atlanta. Yes Boston was without Rondo. But the Hawks were without their starting point guard too! I will take a Rondo-less Celtics over the Hawks any day of the week. You're crazy not too.
I'll take an overachieving Atlanta team over a past-its-prime Boston squad with a gutted inside defensive presence and no point guard any day of the week. You're crazy not to.
And Miami certainly has an athleticism advantage over Chicago. Rose is the only player on the Bulls that creates an athletic challenge for Miami. Miami has LeBron and Wade, two of the most athletic players to ever play the game. Bosh is more athletic than Boozer and same goes for Anthony over Noah.
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Yes the Cavaliers of yesterday. You know the team in 2010 that finished number one in the East with 61 wins and were a great defensive team. The one that fell short of the Finals. Or the ones in 2009 that finished number one in the East with 66 wins and were a great defensive team. That one fell short of the Finals too. So yeah, the Bulls are the Cavaliers of yesterday. A team lead by one great player, that plays harder than any other team in the regular season, especially on defense, only to fall short in the playoffs.
I don't see Rose quitting on this team in the playoffs and those Cavs teams played worse defense (relatively speaking) than this Bulls squad.
Who gives a shit about numbers? Especially in the regular season. Going by numbers, Wade should have had a terrible series against the Celtics. What happened? He lit them up. Give me a break. LeBron is arguably the best player in the world. Loul Deng is a third option player who plays good defense. Danny Granger averaged 21.6ppg on 48% shooting in the first round against Deng. I love Granger, but he ain't close to LeBron. Regular season means next to nothing in the playoffs.
Since you like numbers so much, how about last years playoff numbers for James and Deng in the head to head match up
Deng: 18.8ppg, 5rpg, 1.4apg
James: 31.8ppg, 9.2rpg, 8.2apg
Yeah, LeBron James is barely better than Luol Deng, hahahahahahahaha
I'm going to enjoy throwing this one in your face.
Pat Riley is one of the best coaches of all time, there is no arguing this. He has won 5 NBA titles as a coach. Coaching is more than X's and O's. Thats what your assistants are for. How good of an X's and O's coach do you think Phil Jackson is? How you can say he did nothing before he got Shaq in Miami is ridiculous. He won 4 NBA titles before that time. Every single coach who has won a title has had great players.
SVG was "let go" because Riley knew the Heat would fall short with SVG coaching. It becomes more evident that is true as Orlando gets worse and worse. Riley would not let Spolestra coach this team if he didn't think they would win the title. His rotations are fine.
Riley did nothing between the time he had Magic/Kareem and the time he had Shaq/Wade. Phil Jackson is actually a pretty good X's and O's coach who showed he could win multiple titles with wildly different teams, and his Zen Master routine is way better than Riley's inspirations. My point is that you can't teach inspiration, which is what Riley's greatest asset was as a coach, and his X's and O's (which are teachable) were never particularly noteworthy. To say that Spo is a good coach because Riley hasn't fired him yet? Ridiculous.
Whatever the reasoning for SVG being let go, he did have a legitimate personal issue. Orlando gets worse and worse because Otis Smith is filling that team with horrible players that don't fit the system at all... how is that van Gundy's fault? He runs one of the most unique teams in the history of the league and they do better than you'd expect them to when you look at the jokers that Smith brings in to fill out the roster. I'm not saying SVG is a great coach but he's definitely a good one.
Boozer played like shit against the Pacers and he hurt his toe in game 5. So... yeah about that... He finally stepped it up. But the Hawks don't play defense near the level that Miami does. Boozer won't do much.
Yeah Chris Bosh is a great defensive power forward, you got me there! /sarcasm
Yes basketball is a team game. Hence why no team that relies on one player so much (ie the Bulls and Rose) wins a championship. Miami has been playing better all post season against better competition. Chicago has struggled a lot.
It's ok, you have your Rose colored glasses on right now. You're a fan, and thats great. You expect your team to win and you should. But at the end of the day, Miami will be playing in the NBA Championship.
You have your Wade/James fanboy hat on, and while it's cute it doesn't exactly make you knowledgeable about the game. Throw the fanboy argument around if you want, it's probably the weakest argument you could make. Regardless of the numbers (which I only brought up as support and emphasis for my points; the basis for my assertions lies in my experience and knowledge of playing the game) the Heat will fall to this Bulls squad (probably in 7, not 5, but a fan can dream).
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On May 13 2011 18:07 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 17:53 ilikejokes wrote:On May 13 2011 17:46 Holcan wrote:
I dont think Pierce was too slow, it was just a lack of another defender to come off the bench and lock down the wings, he (pierce) had Tony Allen before, and James Posey before that. Now he had Jeff Green which was still being worked into the rotation efficiently. You honestly need two good defenders to guard Lebron, and as mentioned earlier in the thread, the lack of an at the rim presence (no perkins, no shaq) encouraged Lebron to duck his head for the first couple games, which just racked up fouls on Pierce. Then with Rondo injured pierce was asked to do the largest offensive role, as well as the largest defensive role, it is just unfair to judge him based on him guarding Lebron, I mean he did a pretty good job on Melo for the most part, who has the same youth in him as Lebron. I said he was "too old" not "too slow" Pierce got tired and James didn't, and since man defense is as much about energy and fresh legs as anything it meant that he wound up severely overmatched. Plus, defending Melo's arsenal of offensive weapons is less about athleticism and more about being smart/experienced enough to defend it, which Pierce has in spades. Guarding Melo is different than guarding James. I didnt mean to misquote you, but it is 5am here, give me some grace. My point is simply that Lebron is too great of a player to not have two lock down defenders who are well intune with your defensive scheme. Judging Pierce because of his lack of a capable bench player to give him valuble rest is just silly, when looking at stopped Lebron you look to how effective your 2nd and 3rd wing defenders can be, as 9 out of 10 games (this is probably close to 99/100 games) Lebron is going to outplay his matchup.
I'm confused about the point you're trying to make because I was actually trying to agree with you there. My point was that Pierce did a good job on Melo because his Melo's strengths on offense don't expose Pierce's weaknesses on defense, whereas LeBron is a more of a nightmare for Pierce to defend because his offensive game exploits Pierce's age and fatigue more directly. That isn't to say that LeBron isn't difficult to defend in general, just that (on top of that) he's especially hard for an aging player with little-to-no rest to defend.
In your first post it seemed like you were saying Pierce did better defensively because he had help off the bench in past seasons, which I agree with.
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yes, my wade/ lebron hat is on... im a pacers fan dude. i am way more unbias than you are. chicago winning would make the pacers look even better, but its not gonna happen. you said the deng/lebron match up is close. not a single person in the world who knows about the nba would agree with that. im done with this argument. you can believe what you want, but by the end of the series you will see Miami moving on to the Finals.
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On May 13 2011 18:47 jmbthirteen wrote:
yes, my wade/ lebron hat is on... im a pacers fan dude. i am way more unbias than you are. chicago winning would make the pacers look even better, but its not gonna happen. you said the deng/lebron match up is close. not a single person in the world who knows about the nba would agree with that. im done with this argument. you can believe what you want, but by the end of the series you will see Miami moving on to the Finals.
More argument ad hominem, nice. Deng has consistently overachieved against LeBron, he was the 2nd-best player in their high school class, and he finally has a good coach. I'll leave it at that.
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ilikejokes you are delusional about the bulls and rose, though you aren't the only one. All you are posting is speculation and regular season stats that were already proven wrong when the heat closed out the celtics.
NBA playoffs thread is one of the most fun for people to read cuz there are some long time and/or educated followers of bball. Posting irrelevant stats and obvious blind fanboyism is not fun to read. I figured the bullcrap would be cut a lot shorter like the UFC threads we have, Nazgul cuts dumb fanboyism short after ONE post. We've had pages and pages of this crap and there's already been a warning. Can we clean it up already?
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On May 13 2011 22:46 Ack1027 wrote:
ilikejokes you are delusional about the bulls and rose, though you aren't the only one. All you are posting is speculation and regular season stats that were already proven wrong when the heat closed out the celtics.
NBA playoffs thread is one of the most fun for people to read cuz there are some long time and/or educated followers of bball. Posting irrelevant stats and obvious blind fanboyism is not fun to read. I figured the bullcrap would be cut a lot shorter like the UFC threads we have, Nazgul cuts dumb fanboyism short after ONE post. We've had pages and pages of this crap and there's already been a warning. Can we clean it up already?
No, you are delusional about the Heat. You seem to believe the hype that LeBron and Wade are together God's gift to basketball and to suggest that an extremely shallow team, even if they are on it, is fallible is heresy. I bring up various statistics and metrics as support for but not as the basis of my arguments, and there has yet to be a post that summarily refutes any of my theses without resorting to a fallacious argument (most commonly argument ad hominem, but there have been others).
I am sorry that my opinions and the evidence that I have to support them break from what you imply "educated followers of bball" would think, because I understand that it is not comfortable to be exposed to the possibility that you do not know as much as you think you do. If you disagree that an "educated follower" of the NBA would suggest that a balanced team behind a single great player would fare better in a playoff series than a band of stiffs and veteran castoffs buoyed up by two singularly talented players, when the history of the NBA seems to suggest otherwise, then by all means present the argument and the evidence. Generally I find that Heat apologists are quick to assert that James and Wade are so exceptional individually that together they must therefore be unstoppable and we should have awarded them the 2011 title last June to save time; never mind their lack of a supporting cast or the fact that the whole concept of what constitutes "good basketball" (i.e. good team basketball) is completely in opposition to this Heat squad.
It is easy for an average basketball watcher with little real basketball knowledge to look at this Bulls team and think that there is no way for them to handle Wade and James, a notion that is tragically incorrect.
I've clarified before: as a fan, I think the Bulls win it in 5, but from a more clinical standpoint I see this series going to 7 (with the Bulls prevailing in the end).
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Tim Duncan (4), Isiah Thomas (2), Walt Frazier (2), Hakeem Olajuwon (2), and Moses Malone (1) all won titles as the only great player on a team with a good supporting cast, to name a few. The Pistons won the title in 2005 with no great players..
Duuuuuuude, how can you take away David Robinson from two of Duncan's championship? If he's not a great player than your standards are waaaaaaay too high!
And Hakeem's second title came with Drexler on his team!
EDIT: I messed up the quote function ;D
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On May 13 2011 22:46 Ack1027 wrote:
ilikejokes you are delusional about the bulls and rose, though you aren't the only one. All you are posting is speculation and regular season stats that were already proven wrong when the heat closed out the celtics.
NBA playoffs thread is one of the most fun for people to read cuz there are some long time and/or educated followers of bball. Posting irrelevant stats and obvious blind fanboyism is not fun to read. I figured the bullcrap would be cut a lot shorter like the UFC threads we have, Nazgul cuts dumb fanboyism short after ONE post. We've had pages and pages of this crap and there's already been a warning. Can we clean it up already?
Save it for Game 1 Ack
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On May 14 2011 01:18 VENDIZ wrote:
Duuuuuuude, how can you take away David Robinson from two of Duncan's championship? If he's not a great player than your standards are waaaaaaay too high!
And Hakeem's second title came with Drexler on his team!
EDIT: I messed up the quote function ;D
Yes David Robinson was a great player, but great players aren't great players for the entirety of their careers. He was past his prime for the first title he won with Duncan (he averaged a largely forgettable 16-10 in the playoffs of a largely forgettable lockout-shortened season) and he was past being past his prime and practically retired for the second one (when he averaged 7.8-6.6 in the playoffs). Duncan was the only great player on the Spurs in 1999 and 2002.
Drexler was an arguably great player who was 6 or 7 years past his prime by the time he played with Hakeem. He averaged a somewhat impressive 20-7-5 on 48% shooting in the '95 playoffs and played fairly porous defense. So for the sake of compromise I'll give this one to the "two great players" crowd, even though I maintain that Hakeem was the only truly great player on that team.
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EPT
