On August 23 2011 14:44 slyboogie wrote: Sam Bradford and Matthew Stafford were considered NFL ready. Andrew Luck is considered NFL ready. My point is, can you think of a single black qb to be given the label? Jason Campbell out of Auburn? Mcnabb out of Syracuse?
To some extent, it is sample size - but it's sample size because black qbs aren't given sufficient opportunity, even from a young age.
I think McNabb out of 'Cuse is one. Another might have Warren Moon coming out of Washington, but that is pretty far back and he went into the CFL first (though this touches on a bit of sidetrack on the black QB topic, aka the racism that was involved and how non-white QBs were unacceptable until recent history which was brought up earlier on, kinda, in the sample size comment) and Warren Moon didn't come into the NFL until the early 80s.
Also, I don't think a lot of teams saw Campbell as NFL ready outside of Redskins (or more specifically Joe Gibbs). I thought the general consensus was the Skins reached massively for a QB who had the benefit of having 2 pro-bowl caliber talented RBs (at least in theory) in the backfield with him. This made him look much better than he actually was.
The college game is highly built on speed, and that kind of talent is perfect for options, spreads and all that kind of stuff that is hardly used in the pro game at all.
This times a thousand. So many phenomenal athletes that come out of college that can run like the wind and make defenses look foolish. A bunch of them simply can't match the physicality + speed that all of the pros have ( See Reggie Bush). It makes finding an NFL ready player quite hard for any GM just because the transition is so difficult at the skill positions.
On August 23 2011 13:45 Hawk wrote: uhhhhh, look at the systems that most of those qbs play in. Most black QBs come into college with superb running abilities, and their ability to make stuff happen outside of the pocket is what coaches utilize. The college game is highly built on speed, and that kind of talent is perfect for options, spreads and all that kind of stuff that is hardly used in the pro game at all.
it's hardly a color thing there. There's plenty of white QBs who land in one of those college only type systems. Pretty much anyone Urban Meyer has coached is sure to blow ass as an NFL QB because his system plays almost exclusively out of the shotgun, relies heavily on QB rushing, and very quick reads--shit that does not translate over to the pro game at all due to much better d's, bigger defensive players and the general limitations of that package.
Very few QBs are given the nfl ready label coming out, and the ones that are almost always played in a pro style offense. For example, the 49ers, in all their infinite wisdom (also known as Mike Nolan's fucking ego) decided to pass on Aaron Rodgers, who played in a pro system, for Alex Smith, who played in Urban Meyer's gimmicky fuck system.
Shit it's just really hard to think of someone who was not in a college system recently. I think Gabbart was the only hgih profile pick from this past year. Auburn did not run anything complex with Newton
Yeaaaah buddy Alex Smith... for what it's worth Aaron Rodgers came from a headcoach where previously "talented" college QBs failed to make the transition to the pros, so I think Smith was regarded as the safer pick at the time.
In regards to race, I would say it's hard to base the results because the sample size (for black QBs at least) is so small. In recent years though I'd say it's been rising though and you have your share of good players (Josh Freeman, Mike Vick... McNabb was good at one time I swear!), decent players (wassup David Garrad, you are like the epitome of the average NFL QB in my eyes), and duds (JaWalrus Russel, but seriously, who didn't see that one coming?)... you could certainly say the same for the majority of White QBs as well (Brady = good, Orton = soso, Alexis Smith = bad haha), although there are waaay more white QBs in the nfl.
oh yeah being in a pro system doesnt necessarily mean you're gonna be good. It's just more apples to apples—your supergenius fuckhead qb doesn't have to learn how to take a goddamn snap from under center
fuck
As for Smith, I remember reading that, but I also definitely remember a lot of stuff about Meyer's spread vs that system, and how Smith's thing was he was smart and could overcome the limited playbook and short reads.
I thought Akili was in a pro system when he came out.
Freeman I tried looking up the other day because I thought he was as well. He was a boss in college though, and he could throw the ball too. With a lot of other high profile qbs that we're talking about here, if you paid any attention to them in college, you could tell their throwing abilities were hardly the focus. Cam had a very slim playbook. Vince Young, I could not understand for the life of me why anyone wanted to draft him considering he did not throw a good ball and maybe ran all of 20 plays, all from the SG.
i can't think of more now
but yeah, the reason there's not many black QBs in the nfl is because most of those guys are running non-pro offenses in college.
On August 23 2011 14:44 slyboogie wrote: Sam Bradford and Matthew Stafford were considered NFL ready. Andrew Luck is considered NFL ready. My point is, can you think of a single black qb to be given the label? Jason Campbell out of Auburn? Mcnabb out of Syracuse?
To some extent, it is sample size - but it's sample size because black qbs aren't given sufficient opportunity, even from a young age.
Bradford also averaged a little under 70% completion in college, and had 50td to 8int the year before blowing out his shoulder. I was definitely surprised he went so high coming off of a major injury, but his talent was unparalleled, even coming from a spread. Most QBs are simply not that accurate, even when you lay everything out real simple. He also started since he was a freshman, and was a boss that first year as well.
Stafford also started as a freshman in UGA, and ran a pro style offense for three years. He was a prototypical dropback guy with an arm. That was a no brainer.
Jason Campbell was a bit more regarded than other black qbs because they had some kind of hybrid WC-option type of thing going on, but people also recognized he was highly protected by having a stable of killer RBs there.
McNabb, I think a lot of people had to be sold on. He was a dominant college player, but played out of the option. People bit on him because he like went up 10% or something insane in accuracy in his final year while passing a lot more. I forget if he was billed as NFL ready, but he was looked at as someone who could definitely come in and do stuff eventually by everyone but Iggles fans.
frankly, it's kind of ridiculous to make these kind of claims without looking at what type of system these QBs come from. NFL-ready players are almost always people who played in a pro style offense. THat's what the phrase means—there is no learning a system that is unlike anything the player has ever seen before. Spreads limit the reads, have much smaller playbooks, etc etc.
On August 23 2011 13:45 Hawk wrote: uhhhhh, look at the systems that most of those qbs play in. Most black QBs come into college with superb running abilities, and their ability to make stuff happen outside of the pocket is what coaches utilize. The college game is highly built on speed, and that kind of talent is perfect for options, spreads and all that kind of stuff that is hardly used in the pro game at all.
it's hardly a color thing there. There's plenty of white QBs who land in one of those college only type systems. Pretty much anyone Urban Meyer has coached is sure to blow ass as an NFL QB because his system plays almost exclusively out of the shotgun, relies heavily on QB rushing, and very quick reads--shit that does not translate over to the pro game at all due to much better d's, bigger defensive players and the general limitations of that package.
Very few QBs are given the nfl ready label coming out, and the ones that are almost always played in a pro style offense. For example, the 49ers, in all their infinite wisdom (also known as Mike Nolan's fucking ego) decided to pass on Aaron Rodgers, who played in a pro system, for Alex Smith, who played in Urban Meyer's gimmicky fuck system.
Shit it's just really hard to think of someone who was not in a college system recently. I think Gabbart was the only hgih profile pick from this past year. Auburn did not run anything complex with Newton
Two names: Andrew Luck. That dude is gonna be nasty as fuck. Also Sam Bradford did not play in a completely college style system. I think he was under center a lot more, and had the standard 3, 5, 7 step drops. It's the reason he's transitioned so well into the pros. But I don't really watch college football, because it's gay. [Apparently this is wrong; regardless, my final sentence and the ensuing paragraph stand: College ball is gay as fuck.]
This is the biggest reason I'm not a fan of college football. To me, it should be like basketball, a minor league game to the pros. Although, imo, I think every sport should adopt baseball's format and get rid of college sports and make a minor league to develop talent. This would be greatly beneficial to the NFL teams, because they could spend time developing new talent that needed to be developed with real playing time, instead of making him wait his turn while riding the pine and never gaining real game experience beyond a few snaps each preseason and in practice. The masses of players that are pro ready (guys like Bradford, AP, etc) could play immediately. The game as we see it now would be nearly unimpacted by this, except the college game, which is stupid anyway. I really don't get why it's cool to see a QB sweep right then pitch it back to a HB over and over again. It's stupid as shit to me, and pretty much destroys the other half of an offensive game (passing the ball) . . . it's like watching pee-wee football to me.
On August 23 2011 14:44 slyboogie wrote: Sam Bradford and Matthew Stafford were considered NFL ready. Andrew Luck is considered NFL ready. My point is, can you think of a single black qb to be given the label? Jason Campbell out of Auburn? Mcnabb out of Syracuse?
To some extent, it is sample size - but it's sample size because black qbs aren't given sufficient opportunity, even from a young age.
Bradford also averaged a little under 70% completion in college, and had 50td to 8int the year before blowing out his shoulder. I was definitely surprised he went so high coming off of a major injury, but his talent was unparalleled, even coming from a spread. Most QBs are simply not that accurate, even when you lay everything out real simple. He also started since he was a freshman, and was a boss that first year as well.
Stafford also started as a freshman in UGA, and ran a pro style offense for three years. He was a prototypical dropback guy with an arm. That was a no brainer.
Jason Campbell was a bit more regarded than other black qbs because they had some kind of hybrid WC-option type of thing going on, but people also recognized he was highly protected by having a stable of killer RBs there.
McNabb, I think a lot of people had to be sold on. He was a dominant college player, but played out of the option. People bit on him because he like went up 10% or something insane in accuracy in his final year while passing a lot more. I forget if he was billed as NFL ready, but he was looked at as someone who could definitely come in and do stuff eventually by everyone but Iggles fans.
frankly, it's kind of ridiculous to make these kind of claims without looking at what type of system these QBs come from. NFL-ready players are almost always people who played in a pro style offense. THat's what the phrase means—there is no learning a system that is unlike anything the player has ever seen before. Spreads limit the reads, have much smaller playbooks, etc etc.
That's the point he's making: black QB's often get thrown into gimmicky systems that don't translate to the pros, because they're seen as "athletes" and not as "quarterbacks" like the white players that come out highly touted at the same position are. Imo, he's absolutely correct. If you were to train a black kid from the time he was in middle school to high school (no one uses standard drops in pee-wee football), you'd probably see an excellent QB coming out of college. The thing is, everyone gets so caught up in their ability to run the ball, and their athleticism, that they ruin their potential as an NFL QB. It has nothing to do with skin color, intelligence, etc, but has everything to do with the systems they are brought up in.
Why should a college or high school coach give two shits about implementing a system that cultivates NFL ready qbs?? You're paid to coach to win on that level, and there, you've gotta deal with the talent you're given.
I see it as no different than having a qb with a cannon for an arm and deciding you're gonna call plays that stetch the field, or implementing a WCO if you've got an accurate dude without range. Why try to make a drop back passer out of someone who is an average thrower and plays outside of the pocket a lot? Vick is a perfect example. He only became successful when a coach tried building his gameplan around Vick, not bending Vick to do shit he can't do well to fit the gameplan. He runs a very limited offense that is tailored around his running abilities, the deep ball and shot dumpoffs—the strength of vick and the personnel around him
and the gimmicky thing, I say that from an NFL fan perspective. It's hardly a gimmick in college because spreads, options and all that crazy shit works because the defenses generally blow and in such a large league, there's gonna be a lot of players that are much, much better than others.
Well no, they don't have to run an offense that's "pro" just to be "pro." that's not really what I'm saying. I'm just saying that black quarterbacks aren't wellsuited for the NFL, not because of their race or intelligence, they are just rarely taught to run one. It's just unfortunate, in another universe, Jamarcus Russell might have been Carson Palmer.
On August 24 2011 03:12 slyboogie wrote: Well no, they don't have to run an offense that's "pro" just to be "pro." that's not really what I'm saying. I'm just saying that black quarterbacks aren't wellsuited for the NFL, not because of their race or intelligence, they are just rarely taught to run one. It's just unfortunate, in another universe, Jamarcus Russell might have been Carson Palmer.
On August 24 2011 03:12 slyboogie wrote: Well no, they don't have to run an offense that's "pro" just to be "pro." that's not really what I'm saying. I'm just saying that black quarterbacks aren't wellsuited for the NFL, not because of their race or intelligence, they are just rarely taught to run one. It's just unfortunate, in another universe, Jamarcus Russell might have been Carson Palmer.
He is now. They are both unemployed.
boom!
On August 24 2011 03:12 slyboogie wrote: Well no, they don't have to run an offense that's "pro" just to be "pro." that's not really what I'm saying. I'm just saying that black quarterbacks aren't wellsuited for the NFL, not because of their race or intelligence, they are just rarely taught to run one. It's just unfortunate, in another universe, Jamarcus Russell might have been Carson Palmer.
Russell's failure in the NFL was 100% him not giving a flying fuck. He did not try at all, and admitted as much too
I'm trying to google now, but I'm almost positive LSU was running a run heavy, pro styled offense at the time too.
also going back to black qbs who played in pro style offenses, almost positive that Byron Leftwich was one and was pretty touted coming out as a NFL ready QB.
but yeah, I agree, the reason is that black qb typically tend to be good runners, and college teams will build around that and not focus on advanced passing because it's not necessary
Jamarcus played from the shotgun. His wideouts were Early Doucet and Dwayne Bowe on either side. It was a couple of over-recruited LSU team. Jamarcus Russell is, basically, black Carson Palmer: 6'5 and 250(Not that Russell has been in shape for 3 seasons.) Both went number one in their draft years and both won huge bowl games with fantastic college careers.
It's not Jamarcus vs Carson. Obviously there are white qb busts. Just, black qbs always bust, so I wouldn't draft one in the first round to huge guaranteed money. I'm just saying it isn't the players' fault.
Yes, I'm pretty sure Byron Leftwich was touted as an NFL ready QB. His secret is that he's immobile, so he was able to develop and be taught some passing ability in college.
College football has a tendency to destroy good runners as qbs. It's akin to late bloomers usually having more success than early bloomers later on in life. The early bloomers either don't develop the necessary work ethic and proper fundamentals or they get used to all sorts of bad habits because they developed their talent earlier in life. There's a reason both Vince Young and Tim Tebow have infamous awkward throwing motions that their NFL coaches are trying to correct.
On August 24 2011 03:12 slyboogie wrote: Well no, they don't have to run an offense that's "pro" just to be "pro." that's not really what I'm saying. I'm just saying that black quarterbacks aren't wellsuited for the NFL, not because of their race or intelligence, they are just rarely taught to run one. It's just unfortunate, in another universe, Jamarcus Russell might have been Carson Palmer.
On August 24 2011 06:55 slyboogie wrote: Jamarcus played from the shotgun. His wideouts were Early Doucet and Dwayne Bowe on either side. It was a couple of over-recruited LSU team. Jamarcus Russell is, basically, black Carson Palmer: 6'5 and 250(Not that Russell has been in shape for 3 seasons.) Both went number one in their draft years and both won huge bowl games with fantastic college careers.
It's not Jamarcus vs Carson. Obviously there are white qb busts. Just, black qbs always bust, so I wouldn't draft one in the first round to huge guaranteed money. I'm just saying it isn't the players' fault.
Uhh... Josh Freeman, Michael Vick, Donnovan McNabb, and David Garrard would all beg to differ with your opinion.
On August 24 2011 06:55 slyboogie wrote: Jamarcus played from the shotgun. His wideouts were Early Doucet and Dwayne Bowe on either side. It was a couple of over-recruited LSU team. Jamarcus Russell is, basically, black Carson Palmer: 6'5 and 250(Not that Russell has been in shape for 3 seasons.) Both went number one in their draft years and both won huge bowl games with fantastic college careers.
It's not Jamarcus vs Carson. Obviously there are white qb busts. Just, black qbs always bust, so I wouldn't draft one in the first round to huge guaranteed money. I'm just saying it isn't the players' fault.
Uhh... Josh Freeman, Michael Vick, Donnovan McNabb, and David Garrard would all beg to differ with your opinion.
Change always to usually. Garrard is probably going to lose his job this season, so he shouldn't really count anymore, though the problems on that team extend far beyond him, and the eminent demotion may be undeserved.
On August 24 2011 07:08 andrewlt wrote: Yes, I'm pretty sure Byron Leftwich was touted as an NFL ready QB. His secret is that he's immobile, so he was able to develop and be taught some passing ability in college.
College football has a tendency to destroy good runners as qbs. It's akin to late bloomers usually having more success than early bloomers later on in life. The early bloomers either don't develop the necessary work ethic and proper fundamentals or they get used to all sorts of bad habits because they developed their talent earlier in life. There's a reason both Vince Young and Tim Tebow have infamous awkward throwing motions that their NFL coaches are trying to correct.
That's almost a fundamental truth of life. People that are forced to work harder at a young age typically fair better as adults, I think. Gifted people are too used to things just falling their way, when challenges arise, they give in quickly I think. Either way, good point.
On August 24 2011 03:12 slyboogie wrote: Well no, they don't have to run an offense that's "pro" just to be "pro." that's not really what I'm saying. I'm just saying that black quarterbacks aren't wellsuited for the NFL, not because of their race or intelligence, they are just rarely taught to run one. It's just unfortunate, in another universe, Jamarcus Russell might have been Carson Palmer.
He is now. They are both unemployed.
I wish the NFL would step in and do something about Mike Brown. The Carson Palmer situation ices the cake on how bad of an owner he is. The guy wants off your team, and will pull a great offer from a lot of teams (almost guaranteed a first round pick and a third round pick). Instead, this dipshit would rather his players just retire and get nothing for them. It's absolutely idiotic management over there. It's so frustrating to watch . . . and it's clear that it's not a Chad Johnson thing, or Palmer thing . . . no one really wants to play there. What a joke that situation is. Cincy fans should boycott the team, empty the fucking stadium out every game until Brown relinquishes control of the team or sells: no point in keeping an unprofitable business.
@SweetLemons - Ironically (?) your second response could also be used as a follow-up for your third response. About the only thing Mike Brown has done right is being born to the legend Paul Brown. Its pretty much been all downhill from there for the Bengals.
Edit - It appears we here at TL are ahead of the national football discussion curve. Today's discussion on Mike and Mike was largely about "NFL Ready" QBs.
On August 24 2011 16:09 BloodNinja wrote: @SweetLemons - Ironically (?) your second response could also be used as a follow-up for your third response. About the only thing Mike Brown has done right is being born to the legend Paul Brown. Its pretty much been all downhill from there for the Bengals.
Edit - It appears we here at TL are ahead of the national football discussion curve. Today's discussion on Mike and Mike was largely about "NFL Ready" QBs.
I love that Green still thinks that Vick is going to change the landscape of NFL QB's. He's a one in a million hit, and when teams find his flaws, they are absolutely massive. So, sure, if thirty more guys with incredible speed and agility, that can throw the ball 70 yards, with limited mid-range accuracy and decent short range accuracy come into the league . . . he'll have changed the landscape of the QB position, the thing is, not many guys exist like that. Further, he still hasn't won a Super Bowl. Vick's record in big moments is far from thrilling.
Even the great escapist (or rapist, depending on your view) hasn't exactly been stunning in many of his big games. He had a great run leading to his first SB, and then a terrible SB. The second one, he had a good post season and a great SB, then he had a bad post season, and bad SB (look up the stats for yourself if you'd like).
The pure drop back, pocket QB is still the absolute best option. Yeah, there are some exceptions to the rule, Rodgers, Ben (as much as I hate him), and Vick (with his limited success), but look at the majority of the top QB's in the league. Mostly immobile to semi-mobile passers, with great accuracy.
I'm just tired of all these pundits getting wrapped up in the excitement, as a casual fan would be: they're supposed to be better and more knowledgeable than that. An incredibly rare exception will not change the rule.
EPT
