Magic: The Gathering - Page 483

On October 17 2013 10:42 micronesia wrote:
Kinie in that case what about Ultimate Price instead of Doom Blade?

On October 17 2013 11:41 iGrok wrote:
Ultimate Price is only better against mono-black. It doesn't hit blood baron, so what threats will it kill that doomblade won't?

On October 17 2013 13:22 DEN1ED wrote:
Mono black has gotten very popular online. I've been running it and I've had to make the swap to ultimate price.

On October 17 2013 02:53 MoonBear wrote:

It is impossible for you to hit your opponent with a 4/4 Battlewise Hoplite and also tap your opponent's creature at the same time.

Lemme break down how this will happen at every stage so there's no confusion.

1. You cast Hidden Strings. Hidden Strings is now on the stack.
   
2. Both players are assumed to pass priority.
   
3. Hidden Strings will now resolve. At this point you must choose targets for the spell. You target your Battlewise Hoplite and your opponent's creature. (We are going to assume your opponent's creature is a legal target, so no Shroud etc.)
   
4. Battlewise Hoplite "sees" that you've targeted it with a spell or ability. Its Heroic ability triggers. This will be placed on the stack when a player next receives priority. However, your Hidden Strings is still resolving so it does not exist on the stack yet. Only one trigger is activated.
   
5. We continue resolving Hidden Strings.Your Battlewise Hoplite is now untapped and your opponent's creature is now tapped.
   
6. Now that the main text on Hidden Strings has resolved, we now have to resolve the Cipher component of the card.
   
7. From 702.98 of the Comprehensive Rules, Cipher states that:
   702.98a Cipher appears on some instants and sorceries. It represents two static abilities, one that functions while the spell is on the stack and one that functions while the card with cipher is in the exile zone. "Cipher" means "If this spell is represented by a card, you may exile this card encoded on a creature you control" and "As long as this card is encoded on that creature, that creature has 'Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, you may copy this card and you may cast the copy without paying its mana cost.'"
   
   702.98b The term "encoded" describes the relationship between the card with cipher while in the exile zone and the creature chosen when the spell represented by that card resolves.
   
   702.98c The card with cipher remains encoded on the chosen creature as long as the card with cipher remains exiled and the creature remains on the battlefield. The card remains encoded on that object even if it changes controller or stops being a creature, as long as it remains on the battlefield.
   
   
8. This means Cypher does NOT target. At all.
   
9. We Encode Hidden Strings on the Battlewise Hoplite. Exile Hidden Strings.
   
10. Hidden Strings has now finished resolving.
    
11. The Active Player (you in this case because it is your turn) now receives Priority.
    
12. Battlewise Hoplite's Heroic ability is placed on the stack. Remember, only 1 trigger has been activated.
    
13. We assume both players now pass Priority.
    
14. The trigger now resolves. Battlewise Hoplite now gains a +1/+1 counter.
    
15. Next, you Scry 1.
    
16. Battlewise Hoplite's Heroic trigger has now finished resolving. It is now a 3/3 creature.
    
17. We assume there are no Blocks and no further spells cast.
    
18. Combat Damage is now dealt. Battlewise Hoplite deals 3 combat damage to your opponent.
    
19. The Encoded Hidden Strings on Battlewise Hoplite now triggers and is placed on the stack.
    
20. We assume there are no other triggered abilities. Now that all triggered abilities have been placed on the stack the Active Player receives Priority.
    
21. Resolve the encoded Hidden Strings that has been cast from exile.
    
22. You may now tap or untap target permanent, then tap or untap another target permanent again. If you choose to target Battlewise Hoplite you'll have all those triggers again.
    
23. Once everything has resolved, move to End of Combat Phase.

On October 17 2013 18:36 woreyour wrote:


this is great!, thanks for this step by step explanation. now me and my friend could stop arguing and he can cry how OP this can be :D

On October 17 2013 22:09 Cel.erity wrote:


Again, this explanation is in no way accurate. There is a lot wrong with it. If you want to know the actual steps of how spells and triggers are placed on the stack from Heroic, refer to my earlier posts, because it's kind of annoying having to repeat myself five times answering one question. It is true that you can get a 4/4 vigilant Hoplite at the end of the day, though.

And please, if you're going to answer rules questions with answers that contradict those previously given in the thread, make sure you're right, or edit your posts appropriately. It's harmful to the newer players who come across bad information and start playing incorrectly.

On October 17 2013 23:43 deth2munkies wrote:
I'm running 3 Downfall 2 Doom Blade main in Junk with the last Downfall and a couple Selesnya Charms in the sideboard. I'm really liking the way the deck goldfishes, but I can't stand trying to play another person on Cockatrice, it's just so annoying. I'm proxying the deck IRL to try out.

On October 17 2013 23:42 woreyour wrote:


thanks too for your input, I read your post as well but I guess his steps 1-4 are correct (again not too technical and would be glad if this gets disected if it iswrong), why? because u mentioned that right after hidden strings gets cast, you say heroics gets into the stack right after which i believe is wrong, why? because you can counter hidden strings which means in order to do that players must have the stack passing priority 1st.

yes after all, i just want to make sure at the end of the day I get to have my 4/4 vigilant hopelite with 2 scrys, 3 damage and another tap and untap. I also was happy about the steps that he gave and reference as it was clear to explain to my friend and I am happy for the others to discuss it as well (gotta love 2nd opinions). The replicate one I think would not work since the 2nd and so forth instances/copies are not cast but duplicated only, the 1st I think should trigger heroics.

On October 18 2013 01:22 micronesia wrote:
Am I also correct that random choices are made on resolution? Also, that means you don't have an opportunity to respond to a choice before it is final?

On October 18 2013 01:16 Cel.erity wrote:


Heroic does go on the stack on top of the spell. It's just like any other ability that triggers on a spell cast, it goes on the stack immediately when you announce Hidden Strings and choose its targets, and so it will resolve first as per LIFO (last in first out). Targets are ALWAYS chosen upon casting a spell, not upon resolving it (inb4 someone points out an exception, but I can't think of one offhand). This is basic rules stuff that you need to know. Of course you can counter Hidden Strings, but you'll be doing it after the Heroic ability has already gone on the stack.

The other important thing you should remember is that spells resolve all of their text simultaneously. There is no time for stuff to go on the stack while a spell is resolving, and spells do not have multiple parts to their resolution. It's always very simply:

1. Pay the mana cost/announce targets, now you've cast the spell.
2. Stuff that triggers from casting spells/targeting stuff goes on the stack.
3. Players pass priority, the triggers resolve.
4. Players pass priority again, the spell resolves.

And of course it's possible for the effects of the spell to trigger other things, but that's not happening in our example. Again:

1. You pay for Hidden Strings and announce its targets.
2. Choosing Hoplite as a target triggers Heroic, which goes on the stack above Hidden Strings itself.
3. Now you and your opponent have priority, eventually you both pass and Heroic resolves.
4. Pass again, Hidden Strings resolves. You now choose whether you want to tap or untap each of the two targets, because that's a choice, and choices are made on resolution.

It's not that complicated, really.