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On August 23 2012 22:34 KarlKaliente wrote:
Just pre purchased this game, this will be my first MMO I've played since MXO in 2005-06. I usually learn towards competitive modes in most games that I play. Can someone explain the basics of competitive pvp an MMO?
From my extremely limited knowledge, each character has 2-3 weapon sets with 5 abilties on each. If everyone in an arena has the same level, items, and abilities, what sets players apart from each other? Could you watch a match and be able to tell which player is better? If so, how?
Each player has 2 weapon sets that they can swap between on the fly in battle. Each set gives you 5 weapon skills (1-5) determined by what weapons you use. 1-3 are determined by your main hand weapon, 4-5 are determined by your offhand weapon. 6 is your healing spell; they usually have bonus benefits than just healing and professions generally have between 3~4 to choose from atm. 7-9 are your utility spells; each is different per profession and you can choose from a pretty significant selection. 0 is your elite or ultimate ability; each profession has like 3~5 to choose from atm iirc.
While basic armor and weapon levels and stats are standardized in structured PvP, armor and weapons can be customized with runes, which are obtainable via drops PvE or buying via points achieved through playing PvP. Armor and weapon customization should have a somewhat significant impact on how your character plays by enhancing a particular skill set/play style. Also, the classes are split into three different armor classes giving different levels of protection based on their profession. Each class also has a set of weapons they can choose to use; there is significant overlap here between classes, but each class's weapon skills are quite different.
The idea behind having all players being on equal footing is so that no player is rewarded for grinding unnecessarily. The better player will be highlighted by the use of their abilities at the proper time and target; working together with their teammates to spike a target, utilize combo fields, etc... Think of it as watching a game of Starcraft. Each player starts on equal footing, but individual skill in micro and macro (in GW2's case this would be teamwork rather than macro) sets each other apart.
The biggest problem with GW2 competitive play is that if GW and WoW competitive scene is anything to go by, it won't be very spectator friendly. Due to the complexity and subtlety involved, such as using a specific skill at a specific time to account for skill cooldowns, etc..., it may be difficult to immediately tell who's the better player if you have little to no prior knowledge of the game. However, this may change and not be the case. In any case, GW2 competitive PvP will focus on individual/team skill to set players apart from one another. The best comparison I can draw is probably to the LoL/DotA genre. So although who the better player is may or may not be clear to spectators, being more "skilled" will have a significant impact on the outcome of PvP matches (barring any gross imbalances ofc) and if you are well versed in the competitive PvP scene I'm very sure you can notice the subtleties.
EDIT: There are other differences ofc. Like the people below me mention, Engineers and Elementalists have slightly different mechanics when it comes to weapon sets. Rangers also have the option of using pets, which can be swapped in battle. Each class has their own special "thing" that sets them apart other than different ability sets.
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Engineer is the exception for weapon switching, since their abilities usually tend to allow them to switch to a new set of abilities, such as their flamethrower.
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
On August 23 2012 23:03 Zhou wrote:
Engineer is the exception for weapon switching, since their abilities usually tend to allow them to switch to a new set of abilities, such as their flamethrower.
So you mention the Engineer then neglect to mention the Elementalist for this? :D
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On August 23 2012 22:59 Ryuu314 wrote:
Lots of useful information
I guess what I don't understand are these subtleties. I always assumed skills in MMO's are very basic - you have a single target burst, an AOE damage, a stun, a poison, etc and it doesn't seem hard to figure out the most efficient way to use this. Pit two players against each other with the same abilities and it seems to me the skill gap would be minimal. I didn't factor in team play though, different roles and combinations would certainly switch things up. I've played some dota so this makes more sense to me.
Thanks for helping out
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On August 23 2012 23:15 KarlKaliente wrote:I guess what I don't understand are these subtleties. I always assumed skills in MMO's are very basic - you have a single target burst, an AOE damage, a stun, a poison, etc and it doesn't seem hard to figure out the most efficient way to use this. Pit two players against each other with the same abilities and it seems to me the skill gap would be minimal. I didn't factor in team play though, different roles and combinations would certainly switch things up. I've played some dota so this makes more sense to me. Thanks for helping out
There is also the concept of skill combos, which I feel will play a large part in successful PvP teamwork. I.E. one profession puts down a fire wall and other people can fire projectiles through it that deal burning damage etc. That's just an example, there are many more skill combinations of varying effects.
Maybe I'm just thinking of it differently but it seems to me that if you pit two players against each other with the same abilities, that is the best way to determine which is the 'more skilled' player. There is some concern that it is difficult to tell which weapons players are using and therefore the abilities they have access to, but that may be something that people learn over time.
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On August 23 2012 23:15 KarlKaliente wrote:I guess what I don't understand are these subtleties. I always assumed skills in MMO's are very basic - you have a single target burst, an AOE damage, a stun, a poison, etc and it doesn't seem hard to figure out the most efficient way to use this. Pit two players against each other with the same abilities and it seems to me the skill gap would be minimal. I didn't factor in team play though, different roles and combinations would certainly switch things up. I've played some dota so this makes more sense to me. Thanks for helping out
If MMO history is anything to go by, the subtleties will be very hard to pick up on if you're not into the PvP scene. I do find it interesting that MMO arenas are generally viewed as hard to watch, whereas LoL/DotA genre games are easier to watch and understand when the two genres are fundamentally similar. Maybe it's just a design thing that hopefully Anet can overcome iunno.
Anet's generally been very good about making their skills unique. GW had some truly unique mechanics and skills that made PvP very fun but also very hard for the uninitiated. They've stated that they want to simplify it somewhat to lower the barrier to entry, but I have faith that Anet will still maintain a high level of complexity and uniqueness in their combat. Abilities in beta were pretty well designed and I'm pretty confident that GW2 structured PvP will be worth playing.
Also, another thing I didn't mention yet was the dodging mechanic. As the game becomes more fleshed out and players get better and start realizing which abilities are most important to hit/dodge, I'm pretty sure the dodge mechanic will become more important. It probably won't be optimal to just spam dodge the way most people do now, but dodging specific skills may make or break an engagement.
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On August 23 2012 23:24 ZasZ. wrote:
There is also the concept of skill combos, which I feel will play a large part in successful PvP teamwork. I.E. one profession puts down a fire wall and other people can fire projectiles through it that deal burning damage etc. That's just an example, there are many more skill combinations of varying effects.
Thats very cool. I just found a huge summary of whats different about this game, went from meh to unbelieveably hyped in about 20 minutes. Saturday can't come fast enough now 
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GW2 succeeding as esport is imo 100% reliant on how good their spectator client (which I dearly hope they've been developing) will turn out to be. If the spectator client is amazing for viewers and casters, then it can do well. The audience doesn't need to know every little single nuance of gameplay to get a good viewing. A good client and the 5v5 >> objective << based gameplay will draw viewers. Worst thing is if you make it arena style like WoW and then have a half assed spec client. That's when it's not appealing to viewers and you'd need to be hardcore pvper to understand what's going on.
If MMO history is anything to go by, the subtleties will be very hard to pick up on if you're not into the PvP scene. I do find it interesting that MMO arenas are generally viewed as hard to watch, whereas LoL/DotA genre games are easier to watch and understand when the two genres are fundamentally similar. Maybe it's just a design thing that hopefully Anet can overcome iunno.
This is because MOBAs are objective based and MMOs tend to be kill based. You don't need to know the exact stun timings that team X used to kill player yZ and captured a node for their trouble to see how game progressed -> team X captured node from team Y.
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how can i join this guild, which server are we starting on?
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One last question from me - how robust are the servers? What should I expect once the servers are opened Saturday? I'm one of those guys who really enjoys being in there experiencing something new with everyone else, but I know almost every major release comes with massive server issues on day 1.
What were the betas and stress tests like in this regard?
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On August 24 2012 00:02 daemir wrote:Show nested quote +If MMO history is anything to go by, the subtleties will be very hard to pick up on if you're not into the PvP scene. I do find it interesting that MMO arenas are generally viewed as hard to watch, whereas LoL/DotA genre games are easier to watch and understand when the two genres are fundamentally similar. Maybe it's just a design thing that hopefully Anet can overcome iunno. This is because MOBAs are objective based and MMOs tend to be kill based. You don't need to know the exact stun timings that team X used to kill player yZ and captured a node for their trouble to see how game progressed -> team X captured node from team Y.
Imo both MOBAs and MMORPGs are absolutely terrible to watch if you don't know exactly what's going on. I play Dota 2 a lot now and I still don't know what happens even when I'm in battle myself.
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Hmm maybe, but atm the most watched thing in esports is LoL, and I don't find that hard to follow at all. I did play it though. I tried speccing dota2 and didn't get much out of it even with LoL background, having never played dota or dota2.
But then again I can't make any sense out of american football either.
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The guild I am starting (TL not-super-serious guild) will be based on Ehmry Bay, but you can join it from another world if you want.
Here are the guild names I liked
Poll: Guild nameThe Nexus (15) 43% Raynor's Raiders (14) 40% Winged Horses (6) 17% 35 total votes Your vote: Guild name (Vote): Winged Horses
(Vote): The Nexus
(Vote): Raynor's Raiders
Since I'm the one starting it I have the final say of course :p
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On August 23 2012 23:05 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 23:03 Zhou wrote:
Engineer is the exception for weapon switching, since their abilities usually tend to allow them to switch to a new set of abilities, such as their flamethrower. So you mention the Engineer then neglect to mention the Elementalist for this? :D
I haven't gotten to play them thoroughly, but I guess it would be wise to assume that they couldn't either with them four elements. It's okay though. They play like the avatar. Crazay.
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On August 24 2012 00:34 crate wrote:
The guild I am starting (TL not-super-serious guild) will be based on Ehmry Bay, but you can join it from another world if you want.
wait you can join guilds from other servers and play with them? I need to do more research...
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On August 24 2012 00:34 crate wrote:
Since I'm the one starting it I have the final say of course :p
So.. This isn't a community guild? I'm confused are you proposing to make a community guild, or just a guild which you run that you are using Team liquid to get members for?
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On August 24 2012 01:37 chaokel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 00:34 crate wrote:
Since I'm the one starting it I have the final say of course :p So.. This isn't a community guild? I'm confused are you proposing to make a community guild, or just a guild which you run that you are using Team liquid to get members for?
hmmm sounds familiar *cough*
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Well I figure since I was the one who stepped up to actually fucking start the guild I get to make a few decisions of my own, right??
I didn't even really want to host a guild but I figured that I would rather do the work to host one and have a TL guild I can join than not do the work and not have a guild.
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On August 24 2012 01:59 crate wrote:
Well I figure since I was the one who stepped up to actually fucking start the guild I get to make a few decisions of my own, right??
I didn't even really want to host a guild but I figured that I would rather do the work to host one and have a TL guild I can join than not do the work and not have a guild.
Sure, you are entitled to do whatever you want. I was just trying to clarify what kind of guild you are advertising here, this is what caused problems with Team legacy. People thought they were a community guild when in fact they are not, they are a stand alone community that has long since broken off from TL (The issue was that although they acknowledged this, they were still using TL to recruit members).
p.s. Not sure why you are getting so worked up, I was just attempting to clarify the situation for myself and others. I imagine you will probably get a lot more questions along these lines from the community too, getting worked up over them might make your job quite a bit more stressful.
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Well with the two previous posts combined I hope you can understand how I might have gotten a bit angry....
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EPT
