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On October 04 2010 19:17 Yiruru wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 18:37 HeavOnEarth wrote:On October 04 2010 18:17 spinesheath wrote:On October 04 2010 17:59 Yiruru wrote:
arb's MF build seems about right, but you want 9/0/21 and Ghost/Flash.
LW + Madreds after, followed by LifeSteal/Survivability (Thirster/Banshee/GA are good choices)
You mean IE > LW > BR? What? MF has an ASpd bonus, so you don't want 2 Recurve items. Her skills don't scale with ASpd at all. LW + BR doesn't synergize. Her low range and channeling ult make BR fairly useless. I personally would either go 19/0/11 or 15/0/15. when that garen comes spinning for you with 200+ armor theres nothing much u can do cept build LW+ BR and tanky items thisssssssssssssssssss if theres no tanky jungle shitting on you every fight, u can build whatever u want and go legendary tbh edit: Anything other than 21 utlity will also get you shit on every fight cause summoners won't be up
So you are basically assuming that you either win the game singlehandedly with MF or just flat out lose?
I like to assume that both my enemies and my allies are somewhat competent, in wich case you have to choose an efficient build and your allies have to fill their respective roles.
MF is not supposed to just 5-shot kill a 200+ Armor Garen. She is supposed to take down any non-tank first and then either escape or take down the remants with the help of the rest of her team.
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On October 04 2010 15:46 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 15:41 Lucian wrote:
Anyone able to give me a basic build + masteries/runes for Miss fortune, really looking to get good at a few heroes before hitting ranked o.O personally i ran 21 in offense(people say its bad but eh w/e) 9 in utility for the xp + the buff time i used health quints/arm pen reds/mp5 yellow/magic rez blue ghost/flash or exhaust dorans blade + pot BF sword boots 1 Inf Edge boots 2(with good farming you can rush inf edge in under 20 mins) then i get bloodthirster and by this time the games usually over, but if it goes on id get last whisper or black cleaver or something like that
Did this with 9/0/21 and some of the runes, ended up 14/2/11 too bad three of ours fed them over 40 kills and ended up losing  can't wait for ranked and no more nubs.
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On October 04 2010 19:32 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 19:17 Yiruru wrote:On October 04 2010 18:37 HeavOnEarth wrote:On October 04 2010 18:17 spinesheath wrote:On October 04 2010 17:59 Yiruru wrote:
arb's MF build seems about right, but you want 9/0/21 and Ghost/Flash.
LW + Madreds after, followed by LifeSteal/Survivability (Thirster/Banshee/GA are good choices)
You mean IE > LW > BR? What? MF has an ASpd bonus, so you don't want 2 Recurve items. Her skills don't scale with ASpd at all. LW + BR doesn't synergize. Her low range and channeling ult make BR fairly useless. I personally would either go 19/0/11 or 15/0/15. when that garen comes spinning for you with 200+ armor theres nothing much u can do cept build LW+ BR and tanky items thisssssssssssssssssss if theres no tanky jungle shitting on you every fight, u can build whatever u want and go legendary tbh edit: Anything other than 21 utlity will also get you shit on every fight cause summoners won't be up So you are basically assuming that you either win the game singlehandedly with MF or just flat out lose? I like to assume that both my enemies and my allies are somewhat competent, in wich case you have to choose an efficient build and your allies have to fill their respective roles. MF is not supposed to just 5-shot kill a 200+ Armor Garen. She is supposed to take down any non-tank first and then either escape or take down the remants with the help of the rest of her team.
Rather, in the majority of cases we find that it's the job of the ranged DPS to kill the tanks, as the tanks will deal with their squishies. When the MF/ranged DPS is unable to deal with tanks issues arise.
For instance, we lost to TreeEskimo and a few others because we'd unload like 3-4 stuns on Garen and he'd still kill MF. That... can't... happen. He build the BT etc. build and simply couldn't kill Garen fast enough, meanwhile if he'd built to kill Garen we'd have won. Fairly simple :p
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On October 04 2010 18:58 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 18:33 lgd-haze wrote:
MF with malady, chalice and manamune tells me (poppy with lichbane and DFG) that my build is "nobby" and tells me I need phantom dancer and bloodthirster. I just got flamed by manamune/SOTD kog for buying 2 negatrons on xin when enemies have 10/2 kass and 8/3 anivia from solo lanes
The ONLY thing that he has there is that maaaaaybe if you can hit your ult your MR goes up I think haha.
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Honestly if you need someone to kill tanks, get Trist or Kog with BR, duh. Or at the very least start off with BR on MF instead of IE.
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The very basic setup is DPS kills Tanks with substained damage, Tanks kill nukers because they survive the burst adn nukers are helpless after that and nukers kill DPS because DPS melts instantly under the burst.
Most itembuild aim to both migitate the weaknesses and to increase the strenghts.
DPS doesn´t need to itemise damage against nukers, they need defense so they don´t die instantly.
Bloodrazor is great against Tanks because they need HP and Armor to defend themselves against DPSers and Bloodrazors is exactly right against that combination.
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Neither Trist nor Kog have the lane dominance of MF when it comes to a side-lane (we don't solo her we just let her get babysit by Sona/Janna). Also Kog is usually banned or taken by the other team, and Trist kicks in ridiculously late. We play a mobility/map-control game so we tend to favor a carry that can move around early-mid but can still yoink people late. We've picked up Kog once as an emergency filler (MF got banned) and taken Ezreal once, but otherwise, yeah.
My question about BR+LW still stands, regarding whether it's actually more effective than IE+LW when it comes to pinging down tanks, given that the carry won't have any MPen and a bit of MR might shut it down. I dunno, I don't play ranged DPS.
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If your DPS is building BR then the enemy tanks don't have to build a lot of armor to stay alive. They just build some MRes and get a much stronger defense as the first points in Armor/MRes are more efficient.
Trist kicks in too late, but IE + LW + BR is viable? I wonder. I can somewhat understand rushing BR + LW and not getting BR, but it gimps her skills a lot. You would have to snowball off of MF's strong earlygame pretty hard.
I have no idea about BR/LW vs IE/LW, but I'd rather try BR/Recurve/Recurve vs IE/LW. Or do something else with the 900 gold for upgrading Recurve into LW.
I would definitely use the 15% MPen mastery on MF if you get at least 9 in offense.
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@spinesheath, i searched you on lol-europe ranking, didnt find anything , so im assuming you haven't played a ranked game?
1- 15% mpen is shit, i wouldnt get it on a caster much less MF
2-as mf if the other team is any competent at all your ulti is complete garbage( unless u run galio sona amumu or something), u do more dmg kiting back with lizard
3-this item choice/playstyle on MF only applies to 1600-1800 elo , so if ur not in it, then yes, build zerk boots -> straight dmg , it doesnt matter at all.
Basically, this:
MF is not supposed to just 5-shot kill a 200+ Armor Garen. She is supposed to take down any non-tank first and then either escape or take down the remants with the help of the rest of her team
doesn't apply to our games.
Obviously, in the early-mid game kind of 4v4/3v3 skirmishes with junglers and dragon, you have a bunch of leeway to opt for focusing their squishies,
however when mid-late game rolls around, those tanks are just going to gun for you, if you try to focus a squishy, you will just drop. If u try to run away, you do nothing. If you try to stay and fight, tank kills you anyways UNLESS you build last whisper + . .. etc.
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MF plays a lot differently than Kog/Trist also. You should be spending the majority of the time just kiting and hitting tanks with superior MS. If you can freely hit squishies, it's likely already over.
BR depends somewhat on the enemy's item build too I guess, but you usually get it against the -really beefy- tanks that run up your ass with Sunfire. You usually either open BR, or get it after IE + LW unless you're TF, so there's no BW + LW really.
If you take like Cleaver (75 AD I think?)
Madreds adds 30 AD, plus 30 "damage" on a 3000 hero with 200 MR. I'm pretty sure the extra 45 AD from Cleaver will not be more than the 30 from BR Proc.
Cleaver's passive is also meh on 300 Armor Tanks, and kind of pointless against most squishies. Thirster is for Life Steal.
Why would you not get the 15% MPen, there's nothing better to spec on unless you go don't spec Offensive at all.
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0/9/21 > 15% mpen on pretty much every champ
if you run 21 in offense, id take 15% mpen over 1% atk speed though =0
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On October 04 2010 20:46 Yiruru wrote:
BR depends somewhat on the enemy's item build too I guess, but you usually get it against the -really beefy- tanks that run up your ass with Sunfire. You usually either open BR, or get it after IE + LW unless you're TF, so there's no BW + LW really.
My (and to an extent HeavOnEarth/EzPz) question is what's the most optimal way to build a ranged DPS (in this case usually MF) against Sunfire tanks? Assume late-game (40 minutes into a game) what items do you want when you're running into a 250 armor Garen?
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if you're looking to deal strictly with armor, i feel like gb/b + cleaver might be an option? Afaik, cleaver and gb/b do work together (tho i may be totally wrong), potentially with some atkspeed item as well (granted this is costing alot, but mf isnt exactly the worst farmer). I feel like an idealized apen scenario might be gb/b + cleaver + sotd utilizing both actives strictly for putting down that elephant that is garen. The only thing i worry about this build might be a lack of ad, but idk.
word of caution, i just came up with this off the top of my head so ive never tried anything like this. purely theorycrafting
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United States37500 Posts
On October 04 2010 20:53 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 20:46 Yiruru wrote:
BR depends somewhat on the enemy's item build too I guess, but you usually get it against the -really beefy- tanks that run up your ass with Sunfire. You usually either open BR, or get it after IE + LW unless you're TF, so there's no BW + LW really. My (and to an extent HeavOnEarth/EzPz) question is what's the most optimal way to build a ranged DPS (in this case usually MF) against Sunfire tanks? Assume late-game (40 minutes into a game) what items do you want when you're running into a 250 armor Garen?
Multiple Sunfire stacking tanks: Bloodrazor
Garen's the only tanky guy you're worried about: IE/LW
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Why do you run Def on MF fuuuuuuuuuuuu
You should have Mp5 -> No dodge. SoS = ?????? manamune??
IE + LW + BR is the most optimal against Sunfire Tanks. End with Thirster + GA.
Not sure why you had trouble with Garen on your game though, MF is like the easiest counter cause you can outrun Garen, and just hit him with Liz when he turns back.
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United States37500 Posts
ruru loves his thirsters, huk.
edit: Without red and superior/equal farm, I can see why Garen can be some trouble to MF. But for the most part, kiting (with red) solves all.
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On October 04 2010 20:43 HeavOnEarth wrote:
1- 15% mpen is shit, i wouldnt get it on a caster much less MF
This is surprising, I had always heard 15% Mpen was great. Why is it bad?
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Right, I haven't played a ranked game yet. Doesn't change the fact that IE+LW+BR is terribly inefficient.
If you get at least 9 in offense and have decent spell damage then 15% MPen is not shit. Against a 200 MRes (after flat MPen - which MF doesn't have) target, that's 11% more damage. Huge. And still 5% more damage against 50 MRes targets. Yeah her ult is not always great, but if you decide to put 9 into offense and can choose between 2 APen and 15% MPen, I would opt for the MPen on MF.
I also said that I would either go 19/0/11 or 15/0/15 on her. The other option would be 0/9/21. I dislike 9/0/21 on ranged DPS because you basically get nothing.
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On October 04 2010 19:35 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 19:32 spinesheath wrote:On October 04 2010 19:17 Yiruru wrote:On October 04 2010 18:37 HeavOnEarth wrote:On October 04 2010 18:17 spinesheath wrote:On October 04 2010 17:59 Yiruru wrote:
arb's MF build seems about right, but you want 9/0/21 and Ghost/Flash.
LW + Madreds after, followed by LifeSteal/Survivability (Thirster/Banshee/GA are good choices)
You mean IE > LW > BR? What? MF has an ASpd bonus, so you don't want 2 Recurve items. Her skills don't scale with ASpd at all. LW + BR doesn't synergize. Her low range and channeling ult make BR fairly useless. I personally would either go 19/0/11 or 15/0/15. when that garen comes spinning for you with 200+ armor theres nothing much u can do cept build LW+ BR and tanky items thisssssssssssssssssss if theres no tanky jungle shitting on you every fight, u can build whatever u want and go legendary tbh edit: Anything other than 21 utlity will also get you shit on every fight cause summoners won't be up So you are basically assuming that you either win the game singlehandedly with MF or just flat out lose? I like to assume that both my enemies and my allies are somewhat competent, in wich case you have to choose an efficient build and your allies have to fill their respective roles. MF is not supposed to just 5-shot kill a 200+ Armor Garen. She is supposed to take down any non-tank first and then either escape or take down the remants with the help of the rest of her team. Rather, in the majority of cases we find that it's the job of the ranged DPS to kill the tanks, as the tanks will deal with their squishies. When the MF/ranged DPS is unable to deal with tanks issues arise. For instance, we lost to TreeEskimo and a few others because we'd unload like 3-4 stuns on Garen and he'd still kill MF. That... can't... happen. He build the BT etc. build and simply couldn't kill Garen fast enough, meanwhile if he'd built to kill Garen we'd have won. Fairly simple :p
The reason i went 21/0/9 is with smart usage you wont ever have to flash (as well as watching the map not being a retard etc) or ghost unless you get caught doing something stupid, and i find it to be better in team fights myself
basically conserving skills is a useful skill toi have, and getting recurve items on MF is kinda pointless unless they have a bunch of tanks anyway, hence why i inf edge into bloodthirster unless i see a tanky team at the loading screen then ill get bloodrazor first
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On October 04 2010 21:11 -Kato- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 20:43 HeavOnEarth wrote:
1- 15% mpen is shit, i wouldnt get it on a caster much less MF
This is surprising, I had always heard 15% Mpen was great. Why is it bad?
you apply flat mpen first, then %?
IE caster u get 30 mpen, you're always gonna focus the squishy dps ~ 30 base MR + any additional they get maybe like 10-20 from runes/masteries + 20 from mercs( if they negatron, then just hit someone else)
at most ur getting 6 more mpen, mid-late game, v/s hp/5 and armor/flat mres if u spec 0/9/21 on casters.
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EPT
