EPTMelee is different than other fighting games because you don't always have guaranteed combos, due to the damage system and DI. For that alone it adds another dimension to technical skill and mindgames - stage recovery. The edgegame in Smash is so dynamic; and you really can't compare it to any other fighting game either because the edgegame doesn't exist, or it's extremely shallow in that it exists as a stage gimmick. The edgegame is what defines Smash as a game.
Smash Melee, Tekken 6, Starcraft Comparison - Page 2
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d3_crescentia
United States4054 Posts
Melee is different than other fighting games because you don't always have guaranteed combos, due to the damage system and DI. For that alone it adds another dimension to technical skill and mindgames - stage recovery. The edgegame in Smash is so dynamic; and you really can't compare it to any other fighting game either because the edgegame doesn't exist, or it's extremely shallow in that it exists as a stage gimmick. The edgegame is what defines Smash as a game. | ||
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Gustav_Wind
United States646 Posts
@ Hot_Bid: yes, if there was korean pro Melee, Zelghandi would be easy to do. I would argue that perfect or even near-perfect technical play in Melee is humanly impossible, though. There may be theoretically an almost infinite limit in the amount of multitasking/micro you can do in SC, but the theoretical technical ceiling for Melee is well beyond human reaction time, so it might as well be infinite also. @ the guy who said one missed L-cancel isn't going to decide the match: Tactically a missed L-cancel can be just as important as a shuttle mismicro. A missed L-cancel, tech, or DI often costs 50% - a whole stock. A shuttle mismicro is just more likely to decide the outcome of a SC game because SC, being an RTS, inherently has a slippery-slope nature where the player who is behind tends to become more and more behind. @ the guy who said you can "pick up and play" melee successfully: ... that's totally wrong. @ crescentia: no contest that SC is more mentally demanding than Melee? What do you mean by mentally demanding? | ||
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Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
On December 05 2009 18:20 Gustav_Wind wrote: People here are underrating Melee's technical/overall difficulty. In terms of practice time it doesn't hold a candle to SC, but importance of technical execution is still huge and is a gradient that goes all the way up to the top levels of play. @ Hot_Bid: yes, if there was korean pro Melee, Zelghandi would be easy to do. I would argue that perfect or even near-perfect technical play in Melee is humanly impossible, though. There may be theoretically an almost infinite limit in the amount of multitasking/micro you can do in SC, but the theoretical technical ceiling for Melee is well beyond human reaction time, so it might as well be infinite also. @ the guy who said one missed L-cancel isn't going to decide the match: Tactically a missed L-cancel can be just as important as a shuttle mismicro. A missed L-cancel, tech, or DI often costs 50% - a whole stock. A shuttle mismicro is just more likely to decide the outcome of a SC game because SC, being an RTS, inherently has a slippery-slope nature where the player who is behind tends to become more and more behind. @ the guy who said you can "pick up and play" melee successfully: ... that's totally wrong. @ crescentia: no contest that SC is more mentally demanding than Melee? What do you mean by mentally demanding? #1 learn how to quote. #2 Professional starcraft players commit their lives to this game. The best melee players play maybe once a day. You can't compare dude. I have friend who ranked 17th @ genesis, and he plays like once a day for a bit, so I have some idea of how much melee players play compared to sc players. | ||
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Magic84
Russian Federation1381 Posts
No fighting game ever comes close to SC in terms of difficulty, considering the level of very top players. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
I wouldn't make melee a top fighting game becuase most of the game is mechanics and reflex, reading and sensing when to do things is not that high priority over just spamming the shit out of zoning and juggling it's hard to define a clutch moment in melee so i wouldn't even consider it a good fighting game i mean it feels like a not as good version of mvc2, i don't like mvc2 :D Anyways why would you want to rank any game as harder to master then another, i'm pretty sure that's just a who has the bigger penis contest. | ||
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d3_crescentia
United States4054 Posts
On December 05 2009 18:20 Gustav_Wind wrote: People here are underrating Melee's technical/overall difficulty. In terms of practice time it doesn't hold a candle to SC, but importance of technical execution is still huge and is a gradient that goes all the way up to the top levels of play. @ Hot_Bid: yes, if there was korean pro Melee, Zelghandi would be easy to do. I would argue that perfect or even near-perfect technical play in Melee is humanly impossible, though. There may be theoretically an almost infinite limit in the amount of multitasking/micro you can do in SC, but the theoretical technical ceiling for Melee is well beyond human reaction time, so it might as well be infinite also. @ the guy who said one missed L-cancel isn't going to decide the match: Tactically a missed L-cancel can be just as important as a shuttle mismicro. A missed L-cancel, tech, or DI often costs 50% - a whole stock. A shuttle mismicro is just more likely to decide the outcome of a SC game because SC, being an RTS, inherently has a slippery-slope nature where the player who is behind tends to become more and more behind. @ the guy who said you can "pick up and play" melee successfully: ... that's totally wrong. @ crescentia: no contest that SC is more mentally demanding than Melee? What do you mean by mentally demanding? Multitasking is what makes SC such a difficult game to play at the amateur level, and to multitask well requires a lot of mental fortitude and practice. Because the ceiling for technical execution is so high, it makes the mental aspect of the game high as well. The decisions made in SC have a lot of subtlety and nuance to them, and so even after practice to even be able to be fast enough to multitask, there are a number of different factors you have to juggle when you ARE making those split-second decisions. | ||
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
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DBunny
Canada192 Posts
Most apm -> melee Tightest timing windows -> SF4 Fastest reaction time required -> SF4 | ||
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traced
1739 Posts
On December 05 2009 11:41 Hot_Bid wrote: Thats nice, but after an hour or so practice a day for a week or two (real practice, just repetition) I could do the Fox semi-infinite pretty consistently. Its just muscle memory and repetition repetition repetition. If you had Korean pro houses practicing smash for 12 hours a day like this, they'd be doing this video in their sleep. fox semi-infinite isn't even close to as difficult as some of the things in this video dude smash is more complex than starcraft in terms of micro and immediate, short term decision making and strategy. starcraft is more complex in every other regard. | ||
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines632 Posts
starcraft has by far the highest potential ceiling, though it is simple clicks. in terms of technicality, some of the smash moves take more precision and muscle memory then almost all SC manuvers, such as shuffling into a reverse up-tilt (with falco, fox) fast enough for the 2 attacks to be consecutive, vs 1a2a3a4a f3 pump zlots, though starcraft is overall tougher on the hands since it requires a more consistent input of moves, over a generally much longer time-span. and also you cannot simply pick melee up in 2 weeks of training tech skill, some moves themselves took me half a year to over a whole year to completely master @virtue are you serious you wouldn't say melee is a good fighting game? its pretty much the deepest fighter out there. you are NOT supposed to READ and "PREDICT" because if your predictions are wrong you are open and vunerable. you are supposed to REACT. it seems like you've never played melee competitively nor are you a very knowledgeable gamer p.s hi dt enough with the starcraft and melee comparasins though, since i play both. how do they compare to tekken 6? its all for the sake of arguing with my cousin who doesn't play smash or sc, and thinks tekken takes more skill then both. in the back of my mind i already know it can't be as technical or mentally demanding as smash or sc, i just need someone who actually plays all 3 games competitively to give me some insight. at best i'd have a high ranked-famous tekken 6 player themself to come out into the open and say it isn't as technical as smash or sc, kinda like how m2k, the best brawl player says brawl sucks compared to melee. anyways to the person asking about ken, he quit in 07 after winning first at evo world 2007. the new champion is mango(like ken he's also from west coast, and also from socal), and his rival m2k. | ||
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
On December 05 2009 18:20 Gustav_Wind wrote: People here are underrating Melee's technical/overall difficulty. In terms of practice time it doesn't hold a candle to SC, but importance of technical execution is still huge and is a gradient that goes all the way up to the top levels of play. @ Hot_Bid: yes, if there was korean pro Melee, Zelghandi would be easy to do. I would argue that perfect or even near-perfect technical play in Melee is humanly impossible, though. There may be theoretically an almost infinite limit in the amount of multitasking/micro you can do in SC, but the theoretical technical ceiling for Melee is well beyond human reaction time, so it might as well be infinite also. @ the guy who said one missed L-cancel isn't going to decide the match: Tactically a missed L-cancel can be just as important as a shuttle mismicro. A missed L-cancel, tech, or DI often costs 50% - a whole stock. A shuttle mismicro is just more likely to decide the outcome of a SC game because SC, being an RTS, inherently has a slippery-slope nature where the player who is behind tends to become more and more behind. @ the guy who said you can "pick up and play" melee successfully: ... that's totally wrong. @ crescentia: no contest that SC is more mentally demanding than Melee? What do you mean by mentally demanding? Yes anyone can pick up and play. I didnt say be successful. But it doesnt take long to get good at the game. Just a side note: Why are we talking about Melee when Brawl is out? | ||
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aeroH
United States1034 Posts
i played brawl maybe for a month or so at my friends' house, and i hated it. i stopped playing both for maybe a year now, so i think someone else can explain why melee > brawl. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
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Gustav_Wind
United States646 Posts
On December 05 2009 18:50 resonance wrote: #1 learn how to quote. #2 Professional starcraft players commit their lives to this game. The best melee players play maybe once a day. You can't compare dude. I have friend who ranked 17th @ genesis, and he plays like once a day for a bit, so I have some idea of how much melee players play compared to sc players. #1 Sorry, I know how to single quote but not how to multiquote in a convenient way >.> (For this post I copy pasted, if there is an easier way to multiquote someone please tell me) #2 ... I didn't disagree with this point. In my post I started by saying that Melee doesn't compare to SC in terms of practice time required. However, almost everyone in this thread is vastly underestimating the technical depth of Melee. On December 05 2009 20:29 d3_crescentia wrote: Multitasking is what makes SC such a difficult game to play at the amateur level, and to multitask well requires a lot of mental fortitude and practice. Because the ceiling for technical execution is so high, it makes the mental aspect of the game high as well. The decisions made in SC have a lot of subtlety and nuance to them, and so even after practice to even be able to be fast enough to multitask, there are a number of different factors you have to juggle when you ARE making those split-second decisions. Multitasking is an aspect of technical play, not mental. Isn't saying "SC is mentally harder because it's more technically demanding " a bit redundant with "SC is more technically demanding"? In terms of nuanced and split-second decision making I feel the two games are comparable. At least, I don't see how you can say that there is no contest in that aspect. | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
On December 05 2009 21:19 DBunny wrote: This is pointless, it's like comparing basketball, hockey and baseball. I'll humor you though, I've played all 3 competitively if you replace tekken with SF4. Most apm -> melee Tightest timing windows -> SF4 Fastest reaction time required -> SF4 Tightest timing windows? I doubt you've actually played SF4 "competitively," and even if you have, you've probably just been losing since you don't know anything about SF4 (or fighting games). Smash has some stuff that requires 1-2F precision. SF4 lets you plink anything that should have been difficult. As for the multitask requirements, obviously SC requires way more multitasking than fighting games, but there is a lot of information that a fighting game player needs to be keeping track of at any given moment. Paying attention to "just one thing" is typically the sign of a bad player :V Anyhow. This debate is kinda silly, Tekken requires an entirely different skill set from SC and Melee because neither of those two are fighting games. That said, SC is by far the most difficult game in that trio to play at a high level, if that's what the answer you're looking for. Tekken 6 would probably be the second most difficult to play at a high level. Smash kids can cry about how many "difficult" they have to do (on a GameCube controller, since the Smash community bans non-standard controllers rather than allow things that would make their game substantially easier and take away their only cool thing)... but none of them actually play real fighting games, so what do they know? One of my fighting game player friends made money off Melee without owning a GameCube or a GameCube controller (he also paid his rent and utilities for months off Brawl without owning a Wii). I have yet to meet a person who plays Smash as their primary game who can even place top 3 in SF4 tournaments, and SF4 is only called "difficult" as a joke in fighting game circles. Long story short, Starcraft is harder than those two games so who cares. | ||
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Ginseng
United States268 Posts
 Btw, comparing an RTS to a entirely different genre in terms of difficulty isn't really a wise idea. They all involve totally different meta-games that each take a different set of skills into account. | ||
mrmin123
Korea (South)2971 Posts
On December 06 2009 08:59 MCMcEmcee wrote:...and SF4 is only called "difficult" as a joke in fighting game circles. Just wondering, what is a 'difficult' fighting game then? (Not challenging you or anything, I'm just curious) | ||
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
On December 06 2009 09:49 mrmin123 wrote: Just wondering, what is a 'difficult' fighting game then? (Not challenging you or anything, I'm just curious) I think he means basically anything that's not sf4 or blazblue I think he's primarily referring to input difficulty, there's a lot of knowledge required. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On December 06 2009 08:59 MCMcEmcee wrote: Tightest timing windows? I doubt you've actually played SF4 "competitively," and even if you have, you've probably just been losing since you don't know anything about SF4 (or fighting games). Smash has some stuff that requires 1-2F precision. SF4 lets you plink anything that should have been difficult. As for the multitask requirements, obviously SC requires way more multitasking than fighting games, but there is a lot of information that a fighting game player needs to be keeping track of at any given moment. Paying attention to "just one thing" is typically the sign of a bad player :V Anyhow. This debate is kinda silly, Tekken requires an entirely different skill set from SC and Melee because neither of those two are fighting games. That said, SC is by far the most difficult game in that trio to play at a high level, if that's what the answer you're looking for. Tekken 6 would probably be the second most difficult to play at a high level. Smash kids can cry about how many "difficult" they have to do (on a GameCube controller, since the Smash community bans non-standard controllers rather than allow things that would make their game substantially easier and take away their only cool thing)... but none of them actually play real fighting games, so what do they know? One of my fighting game player friends made money off Melee without owning a GameCube or a GameCube controller (he also paid his rent and utilities for months off Brawl without owning a Wii). I have yet to meet a person who plays Smash as their primary game who can even place top 3 in SF4 tournaments, and SF4 is only called "difficult" as a joke in fighting game circles. Long story short, Starcraft is harder than those two games so who cares. Just terrible. Terrible troll. | ||
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
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