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Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11768 Posts
February 23 2010 00:40 GMT
#1301
God I'm totally queue-dodging Dr. Mundo from now on, what a terrible hero.
Exe/Trist/Kat/Gang > Mundo.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Mazer
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada1086 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-23 01:28:14
February 23 2010 01:26 GMT
#1302
On February 23 2010 09:40 Southlight wrote:
God I'm totally queue-dodging Dr. Mundo from now on, what a terrible hero.
Exe/Trist/Kat/Gang > Mundo.


I can't play Mundo properly but I really do think he's capable of being godly if done right. He can be a bit weak when the other team grabs an executioners calling though.
EchOne
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States2906 Posts
February 23 2010 01:42 GMT
#1303
Dr. Mundo is just a straight-up bad character. Even if healing reduction weren't in the game, he'd still offer far too little team fight utility. Paltry AoE damage, an unreliable single target slow, a big wad of hitpoints... and that's it? That's simply not enough.
面白くない世の中, 面白くすればいいさ
ZERG_RUSSIAN
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
10417 Posts
February 23 2010 02:17 GMT
#1304
He doesn't do enough tanking to tank and he doesn't do enough damage to DPS and you cannot count a skillshot slow as a disable. Also Executioner's Calling is pretty much a hard counter.
I'm on GOLD CHAIN
Tooplark
Profile Joined October 2008
United States3977 Posts
February 23 2010 02:39 GMT
#1305
Mundo can't tank unless you're playing on Twisted Treeline or something. But cleanse + merc treads + agony give him nigh-immunity to CC. Also, Mundo can DPS. He is KING of DPS until level 6. That's why I like laning with some other really strong champion. Almost guaranteed kills.

You're basically Master Yi, but with the Highlander aspd boost exchanged for regen. You're not a glass cannon, so you don't need to itemize like one. I usually get Stark's (unless someone else on my team is), then some appropriate DPS item (Sword of Divine, Last Whisper, or PD), then Spirit Visage, and if the game's still going, a Guardian Angel.

I would like to point out that Mundo is the boss of Twisted Treeline on account of his crazy laning and jungling powers.
He's not very good in a 5v5 AoE and CC dominated metagame, unfortunately.
WHAT POW'R ART THOU WHO FROM BELOW HAST MADE ME RISE UNWILLINGLY AND SLOW
Brees
Profile Joined January 2010
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
February 23 2010 03:58 GMT
#1306
mundo is very rune/mastery reliant unfortunately

ive seen people absolutely wreck house with him though, as he can output insane DPS with little items. he is extremely strong mid-game and if they get exec just grab spirit visage to counter.
Brees on in
ZERG_RUSSIAN
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
10417 Posts
February 23 2010 05:20 GMT
#1307
I seriously might be the game's sickest chogath hahaha.
I'm on GOLD CHAIN
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
February 23 2010 15:48 GMT
#1308
So I tried jungle Amumuing last night and got dumped on every game I did it.

One game the enemy Taric just came after me early (creeps after golem), which forced me back after he stunned me and I took some creep hits + taric hits. This threw all my timing off and by the time I got to dragon, Taric had already hit 6 and killed it along with master yi. Taric also killed their golem which left me in an awkward situation after the first golem buff wore off. No idea what I'm supposed to do in this scenario... I guess I should just stop jungling after the first golem buff wears off and lane up, but it seems like I'm already mildly boned on items at that point.

The other 2 games I think my teammates may have just been poor, but I still felt like after the first dragoning, I was considerably behind where I should've been on level and items.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11768 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-23 16:07:56
February 23 2010 15:58 GMT
#1309
Generally I feel like if you jungle, around level 5 or 6 you need to pull off a sick gank to get back into the game, and a lot of your mid-late game success depends on it. I'm not just talking about Amumu, I'm talking about jungle heroes as a whole. For instance, when I play Udyr I'm almost always playing with a friend who's got the 1v2 solo lane, and once I hit level 5 I grab Lizard buff and go for a double-kill. But if I fail and die (worst scenario!) I'm pretty ruined in teamfights for a significant amount of time. If I fail, then the other team better be losing out on some exp/gold, because it's just so hard to catch up. The reason is that most 1v2 heroes won't "win," so you need to pull off a gank to get you and your teammate back into the game, or at least gather enough map control to make up for your previous lack of board presence.

That end, Amumu level 6 should be pretty sick, as Bandage + Ult should net you kills.

The other cardinal rule I have for jungling, though, is the ability to dominate the jungle. It's why Warwick is such garbage. The top three jungle heroes (and most commonly seen) are Shaco, Fiddle, and Udyr. Warwick/Amumu/etc. won't ever beat those three heroes on even footing. And if you can't, you'll simply lose jungle control, and have your game completely fucked up, whilst their jungle hero goes on to dominate the map. Which goes back up to the first part, about needing to either gank or gain map control.

On February 23 2010 10:42 EchOne wrote:
Dr. Mundo is just a straight-up bad character. Even if healing reduction weren't in the game, he'd still offer far too little team fight utility. Paltry AoE damage, an unreliable single target slow, a big wad of hitpoints... and that's it? That's simply not enough.


Pretty much.

I lost a game last night (as I did a few nights ago) because I had a Mundo on my team, and he accomplished absolutely zilch. Can't initiate, can't tank, can't damage, just sits there like a ranged hero spamming cleaver and then outputting zero threat, so the other team doesn't bother to hit him, and when they do he drops like a rock. Not to mention he's hero-countered in like 70% of games (almost every team carries Trist), and in the other 30% there's always at least one Executioner's Calling, usually multiple because DPS tend to love Crit still.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-23 16:24:43
February 23 2010 16:19 GMT
#1310
Mundo also gets another indirect buff in the changed Executioners calling->
Unique PASSIVE: On hit, you cause 4 damage per second for 8 seconds.
Unique ACTIVE: Reduces healing and regeneration by 50% for 5 seconds.

Still, Mundo if very often played poorly - straight HP and foregoing Armor/Magic resistance seems to work with his abilities but actually wrecks his EFFECTIVE HP. His durability isn´t a incentive to get more "Fatness" but LESS.
He is the only Champ right now with innate CC reduction(ignore the AoEdamage that is just to drive HP cost up to "actually have to turn off sometimes" category), Cleaver slows for 2 seconds and has a Base CD of 4 Seconds, throw in something like Brutaliser and he is pseudoranged. That also makes Masochism pretty much active constantly. With this items like Sheen and Rageblade can actually work on him.
Tooplark
Profile Joined October 2008
United States3977 Posts
February 23 2010 16:21 GMT
#1311
Unfortunately Spirit Visage barely counters Exe Calling. It increases healing by 30%, and Mundo's Sadism heals for 50% of his health. But it's easy to mess up and think that Sadism now heals for 80% of Mundo's health, which would be nice... but it ends up only being 65% of his health. Exe Calling reduces that to 32.5%, so it's still not so good.

I wonder if people are tired of me shouting "Join LiquidParty!" yet...
WHAT POW'R ART THOU WHO FROM BELOW HAST MADE ME RISE UNWILLINGLY AND SLOW
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11768 Posts
February 23 2010 16:30 GMT
#1312
Err, ability to ward off damage/regen aside (Exec vs his ult), a tank's job is to initiate by going in and disabling chunks of heroes. That's why the top-tier tanks are Alist (ezpz 2 second aoe stun), Amumu (ranged skillshot stun that also brings Amumu into combat + massive AoE root), Malphite (ranged AoE stun), etc. Mundo, without a disable, is more like Nasus. Except Nasus is a melee DPSer, who has a tanking skill that enables him to further his ridiculous damage output (AoE armor shred, a snare, and a skill that does over 9000 damage). Mundo can run, he can chase, and will hit you for puny damage, while being able to tank newbies who don't buy Exec. In short, his burst damage stinks, and he brings absolutely zilch to a team fight. Wonderful.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-23 16:35:10
February 23 2010 16:30 GMT
#1313
Thats true Spirit Visage doesn´t solve Exec calling. That is why it becomes shorter than Mundos Ult and a Active, thus even IF Mundo is affected he prevented the Exec calling from debuffing a Teammate and usually everone is squishier than Mundo.

A Mundo without DPS is a poor Mundo. He has a slow, a speedboost and he migates CC. Masochism at full Health alone gives him 200 Dam a hit, it´s lunacy NOT to get Attackspeed with him. Like Nasus he needs to be played like a durable DPS NOT a Tank.
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11768 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-23 16:43:05
February 23 2010 16:34 GMT
#1314
No, the point is.
Mundo initiate -> he get randomly hit by Exec as he charges in -> Mundo won't tank anymo.
Mundo go in afterwards -> no one gives a fck -> everyone else dies -> Mundo dies.

He's like a horrible version of Kassadin, those types of heroes that only vulture weakened heroes. But at least Kassadin has a god-awfully annoying targeted silence, AoE snare, and the ability to escape/chase. Even then Kass is generally considered a "win more convincingly" hero than a "win more often" hero.

Edit:
To reply to your edit,
Nasus is considered near top-tear because his ult is a devastating team-fight ult, and he only needs one (or one+upgrade, Sheen -> Tri) to fulfill damage output. He can then spend the rest of his money on tanking, or a "win more" option of more damage (ie. Starks), and he'll still be able to fulfill both his roles. Likewise, all Udyr needs is Malady; Phoenix Stance accomplishes his damage output role so all he needs to do after that is invest in support/tanking items, which is what you usually see (Malady -> Frozen etc.).

Mundo's Masochism only does more damage as he goes lower in HP, like Tryndmere, except he's not got Trynd's ult to let him stay alive for several seconds after he's pummeled. Unlike Trynd he has decent HP gain so you won't be a pure glass cannon. This means you HAVE to force other teams to attack you, except as most Cho/tank players know, this means you have to output enough of a threat to force them to hit you. No one hits Mundo because his 100 dps at full hp and his random cleaver tosses are a low, low threat. It's the same treatment Trynd gets; no one hits Trynd until everyone else is dead. A high-hp Trynd is like an annoying fly; sure he might kill some ppl with random Crits but he's otherwise not a huge threat. It's only if your team is dumb enough to drag him down to low hp (ult) at the start of the fight that you start struggling.

The only way Mundo can force other teams to hit him is if he's ridiculously fed somehow (play against newbies in laning phase) or if he initiates; except if you initiate, you're automatically tanking, until/unless the enemy team switches priorities. Mundo initiating with DPS items against heal reduc = dead Mundo. But not-dead Mundo = worthless. Dead Mundo = also worthless. But wait, tanking build is a poor Mundo! *facepalm*
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
February 23 2010 17:26 GMT
#1315
Mind I´m not arguing that Mundo is viable right now. Exec calling simply strips his durability which is necessary on ANY melee Hero. Also Masochism has a static Damageincrease component and the actual damage relies on current HP not HP at Time of activation in case that was unclear.
Healing reduction outside of the passive Exec Call can be cleansed (go buy the sash already if you have CC issues!) without immeadiate reapliance.
Tooplark
Profile Joined October 2008
United States3977 Posts
February 23 2010 17:44 GMT
#1316
I am not saying Mundo is viable, either. He's as viable as any melee DPS right now (except Nasus and his imba ult). But he does do good DPS as long as you totally ignore the recommended items. Mundo is usable at my level of play (where Yi and Teemo are still totally usable) because he can take most heroes 1v1 and escape from almost anything. He snacks on towers with Masochism, so even if your team can't push, you can. But when you have 2 BF swords on an 8 second cooldown, you are not to be underestimated.
WHAT POW'R ART THOU WHO FROM BELOW HAST MADE ME RISE UNWILLINGLY AND SLOW
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
February 23 2010 18:22 GMT
#1317
So I've started playing Sivir for when my team needs someone to solo mid in solo queues and I've been using the build suggested in this thread awhile ago (mana crystal -> boots + catalyst -> starks -> merc treads + banshee's veil -> stack BF Swords) but I feel like I'm finding myself to be too little of an individual threat in team fights before I get BF Swords. I never die due to having spell shield and veil and my ult, and while that's nice for boosting my team in combination with stark's, it just seems like the other team can ignore me and whipe the rest of my team out in most team fights and there's not a whole lot I can do about it... Maybe I'm just getting unlucky with teammates in queues, but I'm really feeling like getting something to boost my damage output (probably just a BF Sword, but I've also been thinking of Zeal or Phage for incidental survivability bonuses and saving some gold) before finishing my veil/treads most games... what are the Sivir players' opinions on this?
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
mrgerry
Profile Joined September 2008
United States1508 Posts
February 23 2010 18:24 GMT
#1318
Just depends on how you wanna play her. Be a team player and buy stark's orrrr go Bloodthirster/Last Whisper and not be a team player.
ZERG_RUSSIAN
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
10417 Posts
February 23 2010 18:39 GMT
#1319
Sometimes the best thing you can do for the team is have sick damage output and kill everyone as your team randomly dies taking hits for you :D.
I'm on GOLD CHAIN
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11768 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-23 18:52:44
February 23 2010 18:51 GMT
#1320
Ah, Master Yi/Trynd are on the edge of my queue-dodge list. Until now, Mundo wasn't, but after going like 0-4 on teams with Mundo and basically never losing to teams that have Mundos I'm probably going to have to think hard about moving all those crappy melee DPS heroes into the queue-dodge list. Which sucks because I hate queue-dodging (I don't even q-dodge crap heroes like Janna yet :/).

@Unentschieden
I know it's current HP, but if you don't get hit your HP simply rises with Mundo, unless you're at max HP. Essentially it becomes a crappy +20 or whatever flat damage addition it gives. Because no one will hit you. There's no point! There're plenty of better targets to focus fire, and Mundo does nothing that FORCES you to hit him.

@mog
Like mrgerry/ZERG said, it's up to your team make-up and how you want to play. If you've got like Sivir and four tanks you probably need to build DPS with bloodthirster etc. But if you've got, say, a Trist, then you can take a backseat and go for the support build with Starks etc. Because then your job isn't to output damage, but to help your DPSer output the damage.

(not that you can't go ahead and build output, but you don't have to)
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
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