EPTLeague of Legends - Page 17
| Forum Index > General Games |
|
Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
| ||
|
ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
| ||
|
Southlight
United States11766 Posts
If it helps some people: If you have an ill-timed team-wipe that lets them kill an inhibitor (or more), but you think you have any chance of beating them 5v5 (all it takes is a slip-up by them to teamwipe), then just defend your inhibitors. Stay inside until they respawn, or at least make sure you're always in safe range where you can't get ganked very easily. If you step out, step out with your team, but if you're in a lane where super minions are incoming don't go very far (they hurt) - you don't want to engage against a taem AND super minions. A lot of people I notice just become reckless and super offensive when their inhibitors go down but unless you're absolutely certain your team-wipe -> inhibitor loss was a fluke (like a once-in-ten defeat) then it's usually suicidal; you can't really afford to risk another team fight loss and lose another inhibitor and/or the game outright. For the offensive team they've basically got that window between when the inhibitors respawn and when the super minion spawns stop reaching the opponent's inhibitor to make a push - you have to force them to fight you and the super minions. But a lot of times this isn't actually possible, so the defending team loses a bit of farming time (because they don't have map control anymore) but it's the best shot at making a come-back, IMO, because once the inhibitor goes up and the super creep waves stop coming, it's very close to an even game. On the flip side a lot of times you see the offensive team throw away advantages because they think they have inhibitors down so they can win. Gotta watch Day[9] podcasts about playing with advantages! :D | ||
|
StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
| ||
|
Southlight
United States11766 Posts
Especially Baron. The Baron buff is nice but it's by no means a game-ender with inhibitor, because it increases damage output but doesn't help you survive. I've played in at least 10 games where a team takes down an inhibitor, gets baron (several times!) and loses, because the other team simply held fast in their game while the team with baron felt overconfident, waited for inhibitors to stabilize/for baron to run out (or pick you off and wear down the # of baron buffs your team has) and then waited for one crucial mistake before turning the game over. The game I played before maintenance was like that, too. We lost top inhibitor, the rest of my team wildly flailed, tried to make something happened (right as the inhibitor respawned too, I was enraged 'cause I told them to wait for respawn!) and wiped - we lost top and mid inhibitor AND bottom tower, but they finally listened to me, we defended, took out two of them after baron buff when they tried to re-down top inhib during super creep waves, then by the time they could mount another proper baron offensive super creep weren't supporting pushes at top/mid anymore. Their final real offensive was to take down bottom inhibitor, failed, wiped, and just two! of us (me on trynd and an ally on twitch) pushed down mid's inner tower, inhibitor, both throne towers, and throne in about 40 seconds. If someone with more experience (like Spud) want to correct me with better inhibs-are-down strats or alternatives fire away. I'm just explaining an outline I've used/seen used against me with decent success :p | ||
|
b3h47pte
United States1317 Posts
| ||
|
Southlight
United States11766 Posts
Not to mention you'll almost never reach a point of regen where you'll actually notice it during intense combat. Point was, if you've got a 1700 HP Teemo, that dude's going down fast if he gets focus'd Baron or not :p | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Even squishies are hard to kill if they have Baron buff. As long as they don't stand still and take all the incoming hits. You have to realize that in most situations, if your team is gunning for that squishy in the back, there are 4 other players that have the potential to ace your rest of your team. The HP regen from Baron buff is huge, you can be so close to killing that Teemo, but if he turns on Move Quick and runs circles for 5 seconds, he easily has 500-600 more HP back. As for inhibitors and Baron, losing one usually means losing the other. Thus, it's rather key to have Baron warded at all times, especially after everyone is level 11 (the earliest any team can Baron, not counting 5 man Smite teams a la MegaZero). Losing an inhibitor is ok, it forces 2-3 players to be on the defensive to stop the super creeps. During this time, the enemy is most likely controlling the map of all the Sigils and Dragon. Giving up Sigils is hard to stop. You should prevent them from getting Dragon if possible (4 man a Dragon then everyone blue pills back home to defend the downed inhibitor lane). Never give up Baron. If you see or sense the enemy team moving towards Baron, everyone needs to give up what they're doing, that includes defending the base, and beeline towards Baron. If top lane's inhibitor down, you shouldn't have a player ricing at bottom lane, all the way out to the turrets. If he's your carry and/or he has Teleport, then maybe. But if you're already on the defensive, don't get caught out of position. If the enemy team just got Baron and are coming in, don't initiate outside of towers, that's suicide. Assuming equal levels, the team with Baron buff will out DPS the other team easily in a 5v5. In that situation, 5 man defend and control your own Sigils if possible. Warding them would be good. Then, your options are to either wait until their Baron buff wears out for find situations where they are out of position and force them to fight a 2v3 or a battle where odds are in your favor. Baron respawns after 6 minutes (?), so after 4-5 minutes after Baron died, ward Baron to make sure you don't lose it a second time. | ||
|
Southlight
United States11766 Posts
Edit: Sorry I didn't respond directly enough to your first point. The number of disables in LoL isn't as high as DotA, but I find that if your team is decently organized you can take down any hero fairly quickly with a few snares/disables, especially mid-late game, which is where you see this scenario play out more often. The question is obviously whether your team can take the beating while it does so - often it cannot, but in terms of inhibitor defense you don't actually have to engage until your throne tower (at which point enemy lines get messed up because melee don't want to engage you in double-tower range, while ranged will always be hovering at the edge of range to hit the towers - if they're not hitting you don't have to engage - so you actually find Teemos the easiest to hit in a circumstance like this) or your inhibitor's back up (at which point you have a similar issue, except melee aren't afraid of inhibs hitting back, so you have more proper lines... so you'll almost always "lose" a few fights like this, but the question is whether they ALL have Baron buff by the time inhibitor respawns). The positional advantage I refer to is the fact that throne towers/inhibitors heal, so you can afford to pick off and use them as a shield, and in the case of inhibitors you can sacrifice it and keep waiting for a better opportunity if you feel that particular moment is too unfavourable. //end edit The problem with "beelining" toward Baron so far I've seen is that the team that lost the inhibitor often isn't in a strong enough position to outright win a 5v5, especially if the other team has bush advantage and your team doesn't have a Clairvoyance/properly positioned ward. So I guess the ward recommendation is pretty crucial. If you don't have it warded though, you're better off just letting them take it and hoping for the best with your positional advantage, I think? I have a question on that topic then; if you're solo-queuing do you think it's worth it to buy wards even if you're the best-farmed carry on your team? The gold isn't as big of a problem as the space in the inventory (with Ashe/Trynd I find my inv filled from pretty early on). Edit2: ugggggggh, struggling with formatting/editing to try to make it more readable, le sigh. Also sorry for being argumentative; it's a learning habit. I actually learn the most by having a discussion/debate with people, so I'm sorry if I'm sounding a bit stubborn. I'm trying to steal knowledge via thoroughness. | ||
|
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
I say beeline straight to Baron once the other team is there or has initiated because your only options left are to steal Baron (whether it be a blink in Smite or 5 man gunning for Baron itself when it's down to its last 500 hp) or to backstab their Carry and Casters while Baron still has 3K-4K HP left. Regardless of what happens, your team needs to be in the vicinity to initiate one way or another. If the other team kills Baron and safely blue pills back home, you're rather fucked. If you're solo queuing and you're the carry, ask one of your support players to buy a ward and place it on Baron. If no one complies, then yes, you must do it yourself. For example, if you're Ashe and you're building towards an Infinity, I'd give up that Pickaxe or Cloak of Agility and buy 3 Sight Wards instead. BF Sword is too valuable to give up as a slot. Late, late game, you really should have someone else ward Baron but again, if no one complies, sell your Boots, buy a Ward, run over to Baron to place it, blue pill back home, rebuy Boots. Most cost effective thing to do. You would do the same thing if you were potting up (buying Elixirs). Sells boots, pot up, rebuy boots. Edit: lol, f'ing ninja edit... it honestly didn't help clarify things, your post is still a mess.  To answer your point directly, no, you shouldn't be fighting at your throne turrets. As long as the other team isn't obscenely outleveling you, you can defend at inhibitor turret as 5 + turret vs 5 + Baron buff and make a stand. Just use your spells to clear the incoming creep waves so ensure the enemy doesn't have the opportunity to walk up the stairs while the turret is focused on creep. Certain champion compositions will null that statement (such as Blitz) but you catch my drift. | ||
|
Southlight
United States11766 Posts
My biggest problem with "beelining for Baron" is that a good team will notice your entire team vanish, especially if your inhib's down and no one's defending, and will stop and wait for you, usually in the bushes. At which point it's obviously suicide if you push in without sight ('cause you usually can't afford to give them first strike), but we've gone over that, and if they decide to wait for you with full/near-full hp cuz they stopped Baroning and just waited, then time's on their time and eventually you have to go back to defend, and they get Baron anyways :| Interesting point about the boots, by the way. I hadn't actually thought of that, especially with the Elixirs. Nifty :D Edit: Yeah my post still a mess, guh. If you have inhibitors down, and they're pushing in with Baron, then you're usually defending at the second/third inhibitor turret, where you have turret + ramp advantage. This is probably common-sense, as you just pick at the melee if they come in, and take potshots at the ranged as they hit the turret, but otherwise you can avoid a full-scale engagement, because of defender's advantage. If they can roll in anyways, then you're probably screwed either way, because it means you've got a firepower disadvantage: Barons gives good regen, but it's not enough to cover if you have good firepower. If you have inhibitors down and they go after the throne like idiots (or you have all 3 down, which is what happened to me lol I was on the offense side, was pretty stunned to find my team lose after being 3 inhibs up -_-) you can just defend around the throne tower, like ramp+turret defense. Because the same principles apply - melee don't want to tank tower, unless there's a sizeable power differential, at which point you're probably screwed either way. My point was if you're defending a respawned inhibitor - there're less obvious "lines" there, so you need a relatively competent team to pull it off, but you still have the advantage in that the other team needs to be in range of it to kill it. If the melee hit it, you can take potshots at their melee, and force their ranged to move in range of your ranged to assist, etc. etc. And of course you only have to engage if they actively go after the inhibitor, and even then you have some leeway because inhibitors regen. ^^^ is my point about defensive positional advantage that can equalize a Baron buff. Obviously not always going to work, because if the other team has far superior power even without Baron it's just going to exacerbate things, and that's how 95% of games turn out anyways. The other way it won't work is if they have Twitch, because that @#$@*)ing ult is retardedly overpowered in these sorts of situations. Hope that clarified a bit :x | ||
|
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Your problem with me saying "beeline" is that you take it for face value and put zero analysis on it. Their team has 5 man disappeared off the map first, so it's understandable that your team would all gather as a response. So that point about the enemy noticing everyone off the map is moot. Your team is suppose to beeline toward Baron and wait at one of the ramps/chokes first. Beeline does not mean whoever can get there the fastest, does so. You still set up. If this is the summer map, brush is no longer a problem. On winter, gather up and have your initiator go in first. Whether it be a Malphite ulti, Pirate ulti, Amumu bandage and ulti, Nasus ulti, etc. If they haven't started Baron, their entire team will get hit by your initator's ulti. If they did start Baron, that's even better for you. Your initator's ulti may not nail all 5 enemy players but chances are he'll at least hit the ranged carry and the ranged casters standing in the brush for sight. The main point of my response is that you are gravely underestimating the might of Baron buff. You should really stop. | ||
|
Southlight
United States11766 Posts
Or you lose an inhibitor and people IMMEDIATELY jump out to counter-push that lane. It's hard as hell pushing against super creep, man! Or people that decide it's worth it to special ops and backdoor some turret when you lose an inhibitor, only to cost us a crucial hero for the next minute as they push down a turret and an inhibitor, while we're already down at least one inhibitor. Frustrating. | ||
|
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Some kids in pub games just can't analyze things in the sense of trade offs. Your team 4 man defending super creep while your Yi goes to backdoor an enemy turret but smartly backs up before he can get one of their inhibitors, good. Your Twitch successfully backdoors both a turret and inhibitor but the rest of your team just got wiped and you're about to lose a second inhibitor, probably not as good... | ||
|
Southlight
United States11766 Posts
On December 05 2009 02:59 NeoIllusions wrote: Your team is suppose to beeline toward Baron and wait at one of the ramps/chokes first. Beeline does not mean whoever can get there the fastest, does so. You still set up. I know, that's why I brought up the point about how you stand there in a face-off. This only works if you're genuinely in the belief that your team is superior in a 5v5 fight, because that fight will end the game if you lose. More often than not I've had a team I'm on/seen teams against that set up in front of Baron, fight us 5v5 with an inhibitor down (or just wait until they HAVE to teleport back to defend) and lose, and have that simply be the pre-surrender hail mary. The team that lost the inhibitor can't simply stand there all day waiting for one team to move; the team on the offensive can afford to wait for your turret to die to a super minion. And if the advantaged team isn't sure they'll win they don't even have to engage. They can just back off, wait for you to have to send at least one hero back to defend throne, and THEN engage/go after baron. Tough situation IMO for defense :/ As an addendum, at least at my level of play (dunno my Elo, so I can't tell, but I'm around 120-90 atm) it's the fact that the winning team isn't confident in a 5v5 that you don't even see fights for the baron/you don't see the winning team even go for baron. So, if I'm in a group of friends, and we go for Baron, it's usually because 1) we're pretty sure we'll win 5v5 if they come 2) we'd love to extend our advantage by crushing them 5v5 3) there's no way they're coming to stop us. I'm not underestimating Baron, I think, because I know most games turn the moment one team gets Baron. My point is that if you've got relatively even teams it's stupid to OVERestimate it (it's not God Mode) and do stupid things instead of just defending. A lot of times it's simply inevitable that they get Baron, anyways (your team wipes - they go to Baron, what're you gonna do about it?). Edit: The real good question that's hard to answer is when it's worth risking everything to stop Baron, and when you've got a better chance of winning via defending against Baron'd players. And if we knew the answer to that every single time, the game wouldn't be as fun  The reason why I posted my suggestion in the first place was because I noticed once an inhibitor goes down most players just start running around like headless chickens, because they think the game is over. Most of the time it is, because the reason they took out an inhibitor is because your team genuinely lost a 5v5 or simply cannot stop someone on a roll. But if it's a close game, it angers me, watching people throw a game away because they're going hysteric over something that respawns in time. Edit2: Incidentally, I had no idea level 11 all was the minimum for Baron. I've basically seen it used mostly as like a coup de grace or a "they're dead let's go baron!" thing, but maybe it's about time if I play with friends we incorporate faster baron yoinks into our play. Hmmmmm. | ||
|
Jawa~
United States291 Posts
I had to play HoN while the servers were down, thank god they are back up - League is so clean and refreshing in comparison! Southlight you have a good point, as I have won many games when I've lost inhibitor(s). As long as your team can stand up in a 5v5 fight you always have a chance to win the game. Especially late game, where sometimes you can wipe and just march down and kill all 3 inhibs before they respawn, go get baron and easily win in the next 2-3 minutes. I remember a game where both teams wiped out each other's inhibitors 2 or 3 times before one team finally took out the nexus. It is by no means game over when you lose an inhib (but usually... it is) | ||
|
inertinept
Bangladesh1195 Posts
ive been going boots +2 health and 1 mana pot to start then it depends on the other teams make up really. with the new mejai being so bad, ive been starting with fiendish codex so I get the regen/cooldown/AP all in one go to start and its very versatile. I dont really see the armor penetration from the sorc boots as worth it on annie, so i simply upgrade to swiftness. if you really need penetration later, i just get void staff/abysmal after codex/swiftness I get RoA asap. then it varies. | ||
|
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Codex isn't that great, it's a dead end item, as Nashor's Tooth isn't worthwhile on Annie. I would've suggested Mejai's next but I'm unconvinced with the new Mejai's. So go for Void Staff then Deathfire Grasp. If you're planning to stack Rods, go straight for 2 Catalyst, then turn them both in Rods. Don't bother with Abyssal, it's a pretty terribad caster item. Boots should be Mercury Treads imo. It's the best out there. The -40% to CC is too good to pass. However, if your team is snowballing a win and there's no reason for defense, Swiftness or Mobility will suffice. | ||
|
Southlight
United States11766 Posts
| ||
|
mrgerry
United States1508 Posts
| ||
| ||
