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On March 29 2010 21:56 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Phreak has been stressing on his livestream that if you ever get phantom dancer you are a terrible player. I pretty much believe him. Also I thought wit's end was useless but I see wazzabi running it on warwick... does anyone know why he does or what his exact build is?
I've been giving shaco a run lately and he's fun, but since anivia became free she's been my favorite champ. Turns out I love aoe and burst damage. Anyone got any good builds for her? I just open meki + pots and go catalyst then chalice. I grab mejai's if I'm doing well--I think that this is the only exception to win-more, mejais is so crucial on some champs that it's worth it to have it even if you don't expect more than 3 kills the whole game long. If I'm not doing well I go rod first. Lich bane to zhonyas for the win from there.
Anyone have any advice?
I aint a pro anivia, but I see maany anivia's opening with (idk boots timing sorry) Rod of ages - the item which gives you 4 mana per spell cast and caps at 600 item which i cant remember the name of - mejai's - lich's bane - zhonya's. (which is much alike to your own build).
A tip while playing her (if you don't know) what kills anivia often is that she runs out of mana so be careful with ultying the mobs.
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On March 29 2010 21:56 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Also I thought wit's end was useless but I see wazzabi running it on warwick... does anyone know why he does or what his exact build is?
Wazzabi switches around his build depending on the game and what's more important (sustained damage and ult) -- when I played with him he ran BR/BC for instance, but Wit's End is a stronger skill for his ult (as it's an easy way to stack on-hit effects).
He's also the #1 Warwick player in the game so what works for him may or may not work for other people :x That dude's ult timing is sick.
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On March 29 2010 20:40 oberon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2010 11:16 Brees wrote:
why what's your alias iplaythings?
im talkin like mrgrim999 and phreak who are widely considered to be the best corkis, they pretty much do thos exact builds. in no serious game should you ever be getting stack items, besides maybe mejai's for casters. you simply dont get that many kills. This may or may not be true. If, in every teamfight, you get a kill, an assist, and a death, you'll stabilize with about 6 stacks. On SotO, that's 5*6+10 = 40 attack, at a cost of ~1400. Pretty much in-line with pick-axe/BF sword. Of course, you could have bought a longsword and a pickaxe instead, which gives you +35 attack for about the same price, but immediately. Then SotO's advantages are that it can scale higher (if you do better), and it only takes one slot. I've never been a huge fan of win-more items, but they're not complete crap.
you might stabalize at 6 stacks, but in order to do so, you need to be efficient enough in team fights to go 1/1/1 every time, and you need to do so in like, 4 teamfights before you even get to 6 stacks and be efficient enough to do that while still flushing an initial 900+ gold down the drain.
I dunno, it just seems to me that you can really only get away with the down-payment on stack items with mejai's because AP heroes tend to also scale well with just leveling their spells at the earlier levels with AP being the way they keep up in the mid-late game
I'd be lying if I said Leviathan didn't look juicy with the 2 stacks/assist deal they just put on it (especially with someone like Shen who doesn't die often and easily wracks up assists), but the issue I have with Leviathan is that the stack scaling on it is so much weaker. SoTo's twice as effective with 2 stacks as it is with 0. Mejai's is twice as effective with 2.5 stacks as it is with 0. Leviathan is twice as effective with 5.6 stacks as it is with 0... It just seems like giant's belt is a better investment, especially since it builds into all sorts of useful items.
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The problem I have with stack items is that often it leads to a gimped late-game due to the "snowball" nature of the item. Probably in all my playing I've only seen one person take serious advantage of a stacked item (Mejai x20), and that was on a Veigar that ended up with a ridiculous 720 AP in ~40 minutes. The dead-end nature and the unreliability of stacks leads to a delayed build. I've seen so many people get like 20 stacks on Mejai, die, and never become effective again.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
wit's end is the only item in the game that gives MR/atk speed, its not used for the passive.
and yes phantom dancer is terrible on basically everyone except ashe since she benefits from the slight gain in movespeed and has no steroid skill.
its OK on mundo, but stark's is infinitely better
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So I go Boots of Mobility on Alistar, should I be considering Merc Treads instead?
The way I figure it, my ult is a built in cleanse for any initial CC that tries to disrupt my initiation, and after the initiation, I shouldn't really be eating CC and if I am, my team should be able to capitalize, so it seems more important for me to be able to move around quickly and put that extra 200 gold I'm saving towards a faster Aegis.
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Also, why exactly is Phantom Dancer Terrible? I've found myself getting it on TF if I've farmed enough to go Infinity Edge (rare, I usually go BC if we have another good DPSer) after starks, as it seems like a good way to up my Attack Speed and Crit Chance, + I appreciate the dodge and movespeed.
I was also always under the impression that it's really good on Tryndamere, though you're probably just overlooking that cause he fucking sucks and isn't worth considering lol.
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On March 30 2010 02:04 Brees wrote:
wit's end is the only item in the game that gives MR/atk speed, its not used for the passive.
Only ever seen it used on Warwicks, and even then scarcely, but it's +200 magic damage on his ult. Sure it gives MR/atk speed but you're kidding me if you're saying the +200 mdamage on that ult isn't a major factor in people getting it.
On March 30 2010 02:16 Mogwai wrote:
Also, why exactly is Phantom Dancer Terrible? I've found myself getting it on TF if I've farmed enough to go Infinity Edge (rare, I usually go BC if we have another good DPSer) after starks, as it seems like a good way to up my Attack Speed and Crit Chance, + I appreciate the dodge and movespeed.
I was also always under the impression that it's really good on Tryndamere, though you're probably just overlooking that cause he fucking sucks and isn't worth considering lol.
It's too expensive for the cost, considering that you don't get much actual damage output from it, particularly in relation to other items of similar/lesser cost.
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Ok, so it's 3395 for 45% AS, 30% Crit, 20% Dodge, 12% MS. The price tag is definitely too high, but I'm wondering what would be a better way about increasing my damage output late game.
Again, I only really think about it post-infinity edge when I'm looking to jack up both my AS and my Crit chance, so it's a pretty rare situation since we're talking about games that go over 10K gold, but it has been my niche item in the 2 or 3 games that have went like that. Would it be better to just go recurve bow and then stack Agility Cloaks or stack Zeals or something? Would just going for Bloodrazers always be a better choice?
Like, I get that the actual phantom dancer recipe isn't efficient for offensive output (you're paying 900 for 10% AS, 2% Crit Chance, 20% dodge, and 4% MS), but I guess I just see all the components as being good for my goal and then I have no inventory space, so the recipe is essentially forced and the dodge seems good if the dust settles and I'm facing down their carry.
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Um.
Say you open LW and get a BF sword, which is more expensive as a whole but provides crazy pure damage output, as you get actual damage and attack speed. Assuming you finish IE (which you normally will) you're spending twice as much but your damage output's like 3x more than what you would have with PD.
Now is the 12% MS 20% dodge and 2600 gold worth the 50% crit damage and 100 damage base damage disparity?
From an individual item standpoint PD looks alright but it doesn't give you enough actual damage to be worth fitting something worth a whopping 3400 into your item build. Running around with Treads and PD makes you hit like a fly, after all.
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right... well, again, to me, it's not about fitting it into a normal build, but for finishing a drawn out game where I've already got an Infinity Edge and LW or Starks and I've determined that what I need is more damage output. Maybe I'm just obsessing on the wrong aspect of how to increase my damage (AS and Crit chance) and should just pack another BF item to get my AD as jacked up as possible.
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Well that's why Brees mentioned Ashe; she's the only character where it's actually worth it.
With Corki, for instance, you'll get like, ohh... TriForce, IE, BC, Starks, Brutalizer, LW, etc. etc. plenty of options before you get PD.
With Trist, that's totally useless, you just need to stack damage.
Twitch, again, you'll get LW/IE and then damage/crit chance - you get good attack speed buffs from both skills so it's not really worth bothering with a PD. + most of the items you get past initial DPS are defensive.
List goes on. The number of heroes where getting PD in a viable farm over the course of the game, even past defensive items like Banshee, is pretty much like, Ashe alone. And even then it's literally the 6th item you get.
Edit:
In other words, very few DPS heroes actually need a block combination of crit and attack speed that's expensive and offers marginal upgrades over even just a Zeal.
For example, with Twitch I go LW -> IE -> Exec Call -> GA/Veil -> BC.
With Ashe I see Brut -> LW -> BC -> Veil -> PD (for lack of better).
In both cases I just start investing in Agility Elixirs after a certain point to bolster Crit%.
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ok, fair enough. I guess the next time I get IE and am thinking about PD on Cardmaster, I'll just fork over the extra gold on trinity instead (which is what I typically do after BC, which I usually get instead of IE).
I can't decide whether I wanna pick up Ryze, Annie or Anivia as a caster in my rotation. I haven't ever really had any true casters in my champion rotation (current rotation is TF, Panth, Alistar and Shen, and I've had Nid, Sivir, Ashe, and Amumu all in there at various times), and I'd like to be able to fill that sort of role when needed. I'll probably just play some solo queue with all of them over the course of the next week and get an idea of how they fit my style, but I'm guessing I'll just settle on Annie for her imba passive.
EDIT: oh, and Elixers are probably way smarter now that you mention it :p, I always forget about those damn things, they're pretty good.
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I'm of the opinion that...
A great Anivia swings the game the most of the three. Unfortunately her skill-requirement threshold is huge, and so the majority of Anivias are only "okay" and thus have little-to-no impact. You can definitely tell when someone's fabulous, though, because you'll start feeling helpless in teamfights.
A half-competent Annie will always be a threat to swing a game because of "her imba passive." She's also one of the best solo mids in the game.
Ryze is the simplest, and he's a threat to explode a team for a penta-assist, but he brings little else. Once in three games he'll explode, the rest of the time he'll be "okay or worse."
Edit:
Yeeeeees, Elixirs. Agility gives 20% crit which is pretty crazy for 300 gold :p
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hmmm, I wish I'd seen a good Anivia by now, but I'm not sure I'd even know what I'm doing with her. Most Anivias I've played against have been pretty forgettable (a nice wall here or there, but nothing jaw dropping in the heat of a teamfight). I tend to like high skill casters (I latched onto Invoker in my last days of DotA), so it sounds like she might be the best fit for me in the long run but it might take too long to figure her out.
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I've only seen like two-three fantastic Anivias in this middling Elo, it's pretty rare to find someone who was dedicated enough to master her.
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I think I'm going to buy her on my main account when I get enough IP, she's super fun to use. Frostbite bursts so hard and I love having two skillshots to play with.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
i keep wanting to tell myself janna is bad, but i just keep winning with her. the lengths of games these days really keeps her viable as before 30 minutes her scaling is quite excellent. she is pretty game changing and very "hands-on" to play.
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Janna isn't as bad as people make her out to be. It's just there is so few people who use her correctly that you are better off just dodging because it's most likely some dude who wants to make some mediocre champ look awesome to fill his e-peen.
I feel the only real way to build her is a support dps role. I don't see any reason to build her AP since her greatest strength is that she is really strong in lane phase/mid-game. I just tend to see Janna's get too near the fight and don't realize their role is to protect the carry with knock backs/shield.
With that said, there still are other champs who perform the carry babysitter role better while performing other utility. I personally find Morgana more fun and is always a good pick basically since she can fill a tank-support role or a burst caster role depending on the teams needs.
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On March 29 2010 21:56 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Phreak has been stressing on his livestream that if you ever get phantom dancer you are a terrible player. I pretty much believe him. Also I thought wit's end was useless but I see wazzabi running it on warwick... does anyone know why he does or what his exact build is?
I've been giving shaco a run lately and he's fun, but since anivia became free she's been my favorite champ. Turns out I love aoe and burst damage. Anyone got any good builds for her? I just open meki + pots and go catalyst then chalice. I grab mejai's if I'm doing well--I think that this is the only exception to win-more, mejais is so crucial on some champs that it's worth it to have it even if you don't expect more than 3 kills the whole game long. If I'm not doing well I go rod first. Lich bane to zhonyas for the win from there.
Anyone have any advice?
I haven't played Ani, but I play a lot of casters, and Zhonya's is so so so good now. It's a flat 150 AP, even if you have 0 AP from any other source, plus a (occasionally useful) active. Boots before it is OK, because boots are awesome. Mejai's first is ok, because you want to get stacks ASAP (if you get Mejai's at all, of course). Mana regen first is ok on some champs, though it should be considered a sacrifice. Anything else is really, really hard to justify.
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EPT
