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On January 06 2012 18:26 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 17:25 FireSA wrote:
Hmm this Armada doesnt seem that special, is he special because he uses peach? Peach pretty much hard counters Fox and Falco...a friend of mine mains Peach, and for what its worth the videos and games Ive seen from Armada seem much less impressive when you know a very good peach player. Amusingly Armada doesnt use down A on the ground much, I guess good players shouldnt get hit by it anyway.
(That being said, I am part of a smash community where half the people inc me do not wave dash and consistently beat those who do, seems people cannot deal with how people who dont wavedash play..anybody else have that experience?) I have a few friends who are wavedashing all over the place during games, but mostly they are just dumb players. I am mechanically unsound and beat them pretty easily with certain characters. The mechanical skills are only a small part of the equation and if you aren't practicing enough for them to be 2nd nature, its almost better to not use them at all. Using an SCII analogy: It is technically a bad thing to queue up units, however, most players even in low masters still do. It is unlikely your wavedashing friends who lose to those who don't play more SSBM than a Low Masters player plays SCII. So while a pro dedicates no mental capacity to wavedashing, SHFFLing, etc, your friends dedicate a lot. I can't tell you how many times I've had someone's Marth wavedash into a Fox upsmash, or another move like that. If your not going to practice enough, you might as well queue up 3 marines, its better than having no reinforcements.
mm seems like a fair analogy, and yes I do see how it is very likely that the gap between pros and just really good players is something like masters/gm and pro sc2 players. Though these are some of the best Australian players, which is a bit sad. That being said, I play sheik, and I know that if I lose, it is more so because I made a mistake, and not because of my opponent, just feels like personally the level of control over the character is high enough. Though then again this is probably something most at least decent players feel. Maybe not..
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On January 06 2012 17:25 FireSA wrote:
Hmm this Armada doesnt seem that special, is he special because he uses peach? Peach pretty much hard counters Fox and Falco...a friend of mine mains Peach, and for what its worth the videos and games Ive seen from Armada seem much less impressive when you know a very good peach player. Amusingly Armada doesnt use down A on the ground much, I guess good players shouldnt get hit by it anyway.
(That being said, I am part of a smash community where half the people inc me do not wave dash and consistently beat those who do, seems people cannot deal with how people who dont wavedash play..anybody else have that experience?)
Armada is a beast, no doubt about it. He's not special because he plays peach, he's special because he's fucking good. Peach doesn't hard counter fox or falco, it's about even with falco, and fox is probably peach'a worst matchup.
Being able to win without wave dashing isn't exactly something to be proud of. The way I think about it is wave dashing/ lcancelling etc are like practicing mechanics. At this point, if you aren't consistent with it, you're not going to get far. You probably win with superior strategy, but as they get more technical, strategy isnt enough. Although those friends might lose to you now, they're expanding their horizons and increasing the number of options they have. At some point their mechanics are going to be so much better that they won't need much strategy to win.
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On January 06 2012 17:25 FireSA wrote:
Hmm this Armada doesnt seem that special, is he special because he uses peach? Peach pretty much hard counters Fox and Falco...a friend of mine mains Peach, and for what its worth the videos and games Ive seen from Armada seem much less impressive when you know a very good peach player. Amusingly Armada doesnt use down A on the ground much, I guess good players shouldnt get hit by it anyway.
(That being said, I am part of a smash community where half the people inc me do not wave dash and consistently beat those who do, seems people cannot deal with how people who dont wavedash play..anybody else have that experience?)
Not sure if serious...
Peach pretty much hard counters Fox and Falco...
No, can't be serious.
I don't know when this happened but wave dashing != having tech skill. In fact, if all you can do is wave dashing and shffls you are as close to having no tech skill as possible without actually having 0 tech skill.
Wave dashing out of shield, jump canceling grabs, not fucking up L-cancel hitting a (light) shield [hard to learn cause you can't just practice it by yourself], not rolling towards your opponent or behind him for every approach, up smash out of shield, wave land/isai drop/shield drop/etc. (i.e. shit that gets you off a platform without getting super raped) and DI-ing consistently are infinitely more important, useful, and difficult.
If someone actually has tech skill, being able to do most of that list consistently and some inconsistently, it's extremely hard for someone with no tech to beat them, the person with no tech doesn't have enough options. (it's definitely possible though, just very very rare and difficult) Wave dash/2x wave dash back rapes approaches too hard, wave dashing rapes rolls since you can change direction right afterwards unlike regular dashes, wavedash oos rapes smashes, wave dash after aerials rapes shield grabs etc.
If someone loses to a person with 0 tech skill, they most likely aren't technically sound at all.
For an SC analogy, it doesn't matter if you have 40 apm to your friend's 30, yeah, you can do a few more things, but it doesn't actually matter.
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lolol gotta love the sensible and respectful reply followed by some arrogant people who are quite rude and quick to presume. All I am reading is people pretending to know a lot, and as I said, quick to presume about somebody posting just because they are amused at them not being on top of the "scene" if you wish. Oh the arrogance...the fact that you people throw around the term tech skill when what you note as being tech skill is something we just do without ever even talking about it. Some of you really type out of your arses.
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On January 06 2012 20:14 FireSA wrote:
lolol gotta love the sensible and respectful reply followed by some arrogant people who are quite rude and quick to presume. All I am reading is people pretending to know a lot, and as I said, quick to presume about somebody posting just because they are amused at them not being on top of the "scene" if you wish. Oh the arrogance...the fact that you people throw around the term tech skill when what you note as being tech skill is something we just do without ever even talking about it. Some of you really type out of your arses.
I'm more amused that someone who can't even see the top claims to be anywhere close to it. But I'm pretty sure your not serious and are just provoking a response (e.g. Armada not impressive, peach counters fox etc.), I mostly typed that up to dispel the illusion that once you learn how to wave dash you're suddenly technical, not as a response to you.
Oh, you said you play against some of the best Australian players, videos please. I don't follow the aussie scene and would like to see these top players, around 50% from your scene as I recall, that don't wave dash. Last thing I saw from there was when m2k went there to play brawl and played some melee as well and he wtf raped everybody. The top players did all wave dash and actually had tech though, of course, that probably not where you are.
Annnnnnnnnyways, I'm way more excited about Hbox vs. Armada than anything else. I think they're actually gonna have to double blind pick since YL counters jiggs so hard on more maps that can be striked. I wonder if he's actually gonna pull out sheik like everything guesses he is.
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On January 06 2012 17:25 FireSA wrote:
Hmm this Armada doesnt seem that special, is he special because he uses peach? Peach pretty much hard counters Fox and Falco...a friend of mine mains Peach, and for what its worth the videos and games Ive seen from Armada seem much less impressive when you know a very good peach player. Amusingly Armada doesnt use down A on the ground much, I guess good players shouldnt get hit by it anyway.
(That being said, I am part of a smash community where half the people inc me do not wave dash and consistently beat those who do, seems people cannot deal with how people who dont wavedash play..anybody else have that experience?)
I'm the only one who can washdash or perform any other AT in my entire group of friends. While I beat them consistently, I do not always beat them handily. shffl'ing and wavedashing will help your game, but not if you always decide to choose the same option. Even with unsound mechanics, a decent fighting game player would pick up on this pattern and punish it.
Still advisable for people to play around and actually get the feel for doing some of these techs. I think actually being able to do the AT's makes me the only one in my group of friends who can appreciate how natural it is for the pros and how it just takes the mental competitiveness of smash to the next level.
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This is my first time finding this thread.
I come in to find people saying Armada isn't that impressive and that wavedashing is tech skill.
SMFH
Count9 already said it all so I don't have much to add except that Armada is the TRUTH. I don't know what Melee you guys are watching but if you watched Genesis 2 finals... you'd know Armada is ridiculous. Mango's Fox was playing like PC at his best, but a bit faster, and Armada was able to keep his cool, even under things like double waveshine --> shuffled d-air drillshine and punish every mistake Mango made. That is ridiculous. And he's PEACH.
Anyway, I'm so excited HMW and the crew have started streaming again.
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United States10328 Posts
kage/chu so good lolol... ganon/ice climber so sick
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so sad that azen and tope were showing their age
but then again, m2k + armada is pretty imba t.t
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only been watching for a lil and was never really into the competitive scene, but is it still marth > fox/falco > shiek > marth?
rather who's top 5 in this game (is there a sepperate tiers for 2v2's?)?
also that iceclimbers and jigglypuff players look cool
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Yea, those are the top characters but now it's really player dependent. Armada plays peach and Hbox plays jigglypuff.
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Generally its
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Jiggs
4. Sheik
5. Marth
6. Peach
7. Falcon
8. IC
or something similar.
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USA won, but they gave World an extra player
and it's CAPTAIN JACK
I haven't seen him play in forever; hope he still pulls some crazy japanese mindgames
EDIT: HOLY SHIT THEY JUST REPLACED DRPP WITH ISAI ON USA TEAM
ISAI VS CAPTAINJACK 2012 AT USA VS WORLD?!?!?!?!?!? WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
wait I have no idea what is going on anymore
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United States10328 Posts
jw, are any pools results posted?
let's see, and who's left for 2x2's?
winners:
Armada/M2K vs PP/Lozr
Mango/G$ vs winner of HBox/Plup vs Hax/Jman
losers bracket side... too many left  but hopefully chu/kage > amsah/ice :D
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United States10328 Posts
On January 07 2012 12:22 d3_crescentia wrote:
EDIT: HOLY SHIT THEY JUST REPLACED DRPP WITH ISAI ON USA TEAM
ISAI VS CAPTAINJACK 2012 AT USA VS WORLD?!?!?!?!?!? WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
wait I have no idea what is going on anymore
yeah, wtf is going on
people are saying "ken"?
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Thank god no Isai lol. PP wins ezpz. USA takes down world with one less person with 4 stock to spare woo!!!
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On January 07 2012 12:35 ]343[ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 12:22 d3_crescentia wrote:
EDIT: HOLY SHIT THEY JUST REPLACED DRPP WITH ISAI ON USA TEAM
ISAI VS CAPTAINJACK 2012 AT USA VS WORLD?!?!?!?!?!? WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
wait I have no idea what is going on anymore yeah, wtf is going on people are saying "ken"?
Ken hasn't existed for years...right?
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I managed to watch a fair amount last night but obviously things have progressed.
are the 2v2s/1v1s over? Or are their finals today?
Is there no more mangopuff?
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EPT
