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Marths have pretty much been the same since kens era give or a take a few minor improvements
Dont tell me todays fox/falcos are ANYTHING like bombsoldiers era lol
Transferring from mid->midhigh (or "breaking B level" as i like to call it) is a really difficult barrier
Shiek+marth matchups are sort of "worked out" in that both characters are nowadays running out of options vs spacies
Falcon is probably the character who will see the most improvement from now on, since people are getting over his weaknesses and beginning to realise his speed the same way fox/falco users are (especially falco users)
People who still play marth are absolute masters of execution and consistency
People who sitll play shiek are masters of metagame and game knowledge
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On March 18 2010 22:11 Gustav_Wind wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 05:15 Mogwai wrote:
Marth? The best character? Please, not even close. At theoretical maximums, Magus hypothesizes that only Fox, Falco and Bowser would be viable because they all have moves with 1st frame invincibility and invincible ledge stalls.
Taking it to a less severe extreme, Fox is still the best, no question. Falco is probably second best, and then most likely Sheik. Marth suffers from the horrible inability to actually create anything for himself. He relies solely on his opponent making mistakes and punishing them, and it shows through at the top level of play where players aren't making many mistakes any more.
It's really telling to his potential that he has only been placing worse as the metagame has progressed over the last two years. At this point, Marth is just a Jigglypuff who can actually be comboed, which means he's still pretty good, but he's just not top tier any more. so do you not think Jiggs is debatably 2nd or 3rd best? She doesn't seem to have bad matchups, stemming from the huge disparity between her ability to punish and other characters' ability to punish her. I always hear that Fox can just laser camp her or something but it doesn't seem very safe from how high-level matches actually play out.
jiggs has a bad matchup against roy
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On March 20 2010 04:39 Mogwai wrote:
Good Falcos and Jiggs started coming out of the woodwork 2 years ago
Mango and Hbox are very very good, but I don't think I'd call 2 players "Jiggs coming out of the woodwork"
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On March 20 2010 08:26 EmeraldSparks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2010 22:11 Gustav_Wind wrote:On March 17 2010 05:15 Mogwai wrote:
Marth? The best character? Please, not even close. At theoretical maximums, Magus hypothesizes that only Fox, Falco and Bowser would be viable because they all have moves with 1st frame invincibility and invincible ledge stalls.
Taking it to a less severe extreme, Fox is still the best, no question. Falco is probably second best, and then most likely Sheik. Marth suffers from the horrible inability to actually create anything for himself. He relies solely on his opponent making mistakes and punishing them, and it shows through at the top level of play where players aren't making many mistakes any more.
It's really telling to his potential that he has only been placing worse as the metagame has progressed over the last two years. At this point, Marth is just a Jigglypuff who can actually be comboed, which means he's still pretty good, but he's just not top tier any more. so do you not think Jiggs is debatably 2nd or 3rd best? She doesn't seem to have bad matchups, stemming from the huge disparity between her ability to punish and other characters' ability to punish her. I always hear that Fox can just laser camp her or something but it doesn't seem very safe from how high-level matches actually play out. jiggs has a bad matchup against roy
lol, just sorta on low ceiling stages and reverse blazer is still hard as hell to hit. It's even on stages where Roy can hit it IMO and brutally terrible for Roy on stages where it doesn't work.
On March 20 2010 09:36 crate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2010 04:39 Mogwai wrote:
Good Falcos and Jiggs started coming out of the woodwork 2 years ago Mango and Hbox are very very good, but I don't think I'd call 2 players "Jiggs coming out of the woodwork"
Darc and Raistlin were pretty unknown until recently, despite Darc being totally badass for a long time (even though he's a bisu fan  ).
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I can be very sneaky with combos using pikachu. Nowhere near as good as some of my pro friends, but i manage.
Main: Pikachu, Marth, Link occasionally, Zelda occasionally
Active: Not recently, but i can still do some of the stuff i used to be able to.
Location: Niagara Reigon, ON.
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JIJIyO
Canada1957 Posts
On March 20 2010 11:42 Mogwai wrote: Darc being totally badass for a long time (even though he's a bisu fan ).
Disgusting.
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Mogwai that list looks really really good, though I didn't really pay attention to below Pikachu because I have no idea about that. The only things I would maybe disagree with I'm unsure about, and those are only like swapping characters that are right next to each other.
Falco above Fox is interesting and I've never really considered it seriously because of how strong the conventional wisdom is on Fox being the best, but I can get behind that.
I agree with Marth's place in the order (5th best), and based on tournament results he's clearly out of top tier. From the point of view of matchups it's less clear. He's in some in-between space that used to be occupied by Peach years ago.
To me it always seemed like the clear distinction between a Top and High tier character was that a Top tier character had no more than 1 worse than even matchup, and that matchup would only be a small disadvantage. This still fits for Fox, Sheik, Jiggs, and Falco; it no longer does for Marth. Still his bad matchups are markedly better than a definitely High-tiered character like Falcon.
I guess he has to go somewhere, though, and High seems fine.
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Does anyone who plays live in Boston area perchance?
PS Happy birthday Mogwai
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ty, even though my bdai is really tomorrow... silly Korean time thing :p...
Mass has a decent scene, but I think it's mostly like, southern Mass around Springfield and they're pretty young for the most part, so I dunno how far they travel aside for tournies. I don't think I know any Mass Smashers who are into Starcraft, though :\.
I'm going to be making a thread on smashboards about my tier list with some justifications and discussions on all the placements, I'll link it here when I make it.
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Awesome, thanks- would love to give it a read. I go to the weekly smash thing at BU (being a BU undergrad makes it easy, lol) and have just started gettin into competitive play in the past 2 months or so but thats about it. Also, any suggestions as to a good second character to compliment a Marth main?
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JIJIyO
Canada1957 Posts
Anyone here who doesn't like how SC2 is looking feel like it's going to become Brawl? I know it's the beta stages, but it just looks like mass up units with a good composition and 1a your armies into each other. If SC2 really does turn out to be a boring game to watch and play, I'll probably stick to SC even if the foreign scene dies out.
When I first played Brawl I was like wtf is this slow shit. Then after trying to play it more with the "competitive" style, it just made me sad. I went back to Melee, and even though I don't really play with people a lot and have never been to a tournament, I'm happy.
Oh and HBD Mogwai!
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On March 22 2010 05:50 JIJIyO wrote:
Anyone here who doesn't like how SC2 is looking feel like it's going to become Brawl? I know it's the beta stages, but it just looks like mass up units with a good composition and 1a your armies into each other. If SC2 really does turn out to be a boring game to watch and play, I'll probably stick to SC even if the foreign scene dies out.
When I first played Brawl I was like wtf is this slow shit. Then after trying to play it more with the "competitive" style, it just made me sad. I went back to Melee, and even though I don't really play with people a lot and have never been to a tournament, I'm happy.
Oh and HBD Mogwai!
Haha yeah. There's a weekly smash gathering at my school, maybe 2 TVs of melee and 3 of brawl. We'll be playing melee and hear things like "Oh shit, short hop" coming from the Brawl TVs... It makes me sad.
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I don't know about Jigglypuff being the best overall, but it's certainly my best in that it's really really easy to use and I have really low APM. I've been wondering why it hasn't been pushed to top tier for years now.
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Jiggly requires a very different mindset to play compared to the rest of the characters and many players arnt able to grasp this so there are fewer jiggs players to advance her game
I dont really know where you're at but once you play people who can get past her generic gay spacing (in the same way people "get over" playing vs marth) all of a sudden it becomes really difficult
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On March 22 2010 10:40 BrTarolg wrote:
Jiggly requires a very different mindset to play compared to the rest of the characters and many players arnt able to grasp this so there are fewer jiggs players to advance her game
I dont really know where you're at but once you play people who can get past her generic gay spacing (in the same way people "get over" playing vs marth) all of a sudden it becomes really difficult
I wouldn't say she's much of a different mindset for Marth tbh. Her combos are less dynamic and she's more aerial than grounded, but the general principles of high level play are pretty similar between the two of them.
But, yea, totally agree with you about the hitting a wall thing. It's just like Marth and Sheik... you get to a certain level and suddenly everyone has seen your generic shit before and you just get raped.
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On March 22 2010 05:50 JIJIyO wrote:
Anyone here who doesn't like how SC2 is looking feel like it's going to become Brawl? I know it's the beta stages, but it just looks like mass up units with a good composition and 1a your armies into each other. If SC2 really does turn out to be a boring game to watch and play, I'll probably stick to SC even if the foreign scene dies out.
When I first played Brawl I was like wtf is this slow shit. Then after trying to play it more with the "competitive" style, it just made me sad. I went back to Melee, and even though I don't really play with people a lot and have never been to a tournament, I'm happy.
Oh and HBD Mogwai!
I think the parallels were pretty clear immediately to people who follow both series (smash and sc).
The difference though was that Brawl was 1). released as a final product and 2). designed with some explicitly anti-competitive features in mind.
Blizzard supposedly is dedicated to making SC2 a good e-sport, and there are many many revisions to come, so there's still room for improvement.
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On March 22 2010 21:15 Gustav_Wind wrote:
and there are many many revisions to come, so there's still room for improvement.
This pretty much hits it on the head. Brawl was released as a complete product ready to be played and just fell short competitively. SC2 has a whole team of developers dedicated to patching and tweaking it into a true successor to SC:BW. I have the utmost faith they will eventually succeed.
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Now that brawl is released, does anyone still play melee? Since I do not have a Wii, I mostly play with my sister who is specialized in Ness and Shiek (I am Marth)
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Most certainly. Brawl has been out for...I want to say two years now? Still, most of the major Smash tournaments still have Melee as a main event.
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Smoke2Jointz, where you at?
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EPT
