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Mind Over Mechanics
November 15th, 2008 10:26 GMT
Mind over Mechanics - The Art and Science of Starcraft
By riptide
TeamLiquid: Final Edits
One of the beauties of Starcraft is that it is a game that is open to change, and constant evolution. Players change, styles change, and the meta-game is in constant flux. As various writers have noted over the past few months, the arrival of people like Jaedong and Flash on the scene forever altered the way we looked at the pro scene.
While Koreans were always a step above the foreign community in terms of strategy, tactics and gameplay in general, Jaedong and Flash just took it to a whole new level. Years of competitive ladder play, and a killer amateur scene had pushed standards higher and higher, and the new breed of pro gamers was mirroring the difference.
As Rage pointed out in his TLFE classic Mind Games, often it's “preparation, confidence and decision-making that makes one player win over the other”. In modern Starcraft, build orders are the order of the day (pun totally intended), with countering them well being the key to winning. No longer can a player just waltz into a series, and walk all over his opponent with pure class.
Class, which many moons ago meant style, panache and punch, now means preparation, mechanics, and a lot of practice. This is not to say that the likes of Boxer and Nada didn't practice – they did, and their multiple titles stand testament to the hours they put in the training room. The practice referred to here is the repetitive, if somewhat detached execution and re-execution of a build until it becomes familiar, habitual, and finally, instinctual.
Familiarity, as we all know, is good. If you know a build well, everything falls in to place. From Flash's TvZ mech, to Fantasy's revolutionary Valkyries, smart build orders have been the cause for many a win in recent years. However, as the ladder players out there will be able to tell us, a great build is useless unless it is executed flawlessly. Fortunately, the new calibre of pro gamer is able to do just that.
Which calibre you ask?
Why, the mechaniacs (my coinage), of course. What? The mechanically sound maniacs who seem to rip through everyone in their path. Obviously, I'm talking about Lee Jaedong and Lee Young Ho, and how untouchable they look when they're on top of their game.
Jaedong and Flash, co-owners of Mechaniacs Ltd.
So, are the mechaniacs untouchable?
Looking back on recent progaming history, it would be hard to argue otherwise. Then again, I'm going to do just that. While I do concede that the pro scene has proven to be very favourable for mechanical players in recent times, my hypothesis is that the insane mechanics that Flash and Jaedong pioneered are slowly becoming normalised, and that the gamers who gain the edge in the coming months will be those who cultivate another important aspect of play.
Looking back on OSL history, one can theorise that the Daum OSL was the last in which the old, non mechanical style of play dominated. In a beautiful final, GGPlay and Iris showed us exactly what Starcraft of old looked like. Coming back from an impossible 0 – 2 to take the series, GGPlay proved that the game was still very much about attitude.
The months roll on, and we begin to see some new kids on the block. The first, and therefore arguably the harbinger of doom, is none other than Jaedong. The Legend Killer, the Heir to the Zerg Throne left vacant by Savior, Lee Jaedong took the pro scene by storm. Showing incredible muta micro and mind blowing defiler use, he was quickly hailed as the next big thing in Starcraft, and rightly so. His walk to the throne was swift, and brutal, losing only 3 games each in both the EVER2007 OSL and the GOMTV MSL S4.
Next, we have Lee Young Ho, the KTF wonder kind, who in the space of a season, moved from being cheese master to Little Monster. Showing incredible macro, game sense, and above all, speed and accuracy, Flash ripped through the Bacchus OSL, going 11 – 4 in the series, and leaving even Jaedong in the dust. Mechanics, it turns out, can be beaten by mechanics, something which fOrGG must have been reminding himself of constantly as he squared off against and beat the The Legend Killer in the Arena MSL 2008.
By this time, the mechaniacs were fairly well established, and their Protoss incarnation, Best, had stepped into the limelight. Sporting a Dark Protoss style, this SKT1 macro machine tore through the likes of Nada, Stork, Much and Luxury to reach the finals of the EVER2008 OSL. Kingdom's apprentice, the expectations were high for him to walk the Royal Road. July, the pundits said, though being unstoppable in his prime, was far from his peak, and was no match for Best's current form. Best was tipped to win, and win handsomely at that.
Best, who was tipped to be the best thing out of Aiur since Nal_rA.
Unfortunately for him, it was here that he macroed himself into the wall that was Park Sung Joon. In a rather one sided beatdown, the Zerg veteran started off with a 5pool and ended with an epic ultraling run over. July was in control from start to finish, and even departed from his usual hungry Zerg play to give the audience a treat via the five base smack down mentioned earlier. It was a finals in which experience clearly trumped speed and accuracy. It was, in every sense of the word, mind over mechanics. Best got silver, July got the golden mouse.
Was the tide turning? Only time would tell.
Enter the Incruit 2008 OSL, and the rise of another mechaniac, this time from the Terran camp. Fantasy, by all accounts, is one of the most mechanically perfect players on the scene today. With well practiced builds, and flawless execution, he dispatched Nada, Mind, and GGPlay on his way to the finals, showing complete dominance versus the latter, and pioneering a new Valkyrie based mech build that would be hailed as a TvZ revolution.
And then he met Stork. From his fierce proxy gate opening into probe harras, to his beautifully executed DT drop, Stork showed complete control in the two opening games. While definitely a strong player, Stork showed more than mechanics in these two games. Harassing, containing, sniping, Song Byung Goo was everywhere. The map was his, the game was his, and Fantasy was always on the back foot. There was, of course, a resurgence in the next few games, in which the SKT1 Terran came back to almost take the series. Almost.
In Game 5, Stork returned to his original form and controlled the game from start to finish. As Fantasy typed out, there was no question as to who was the better player. Stork had just successfully beaten one of the most impressive Terrans of the season.
The tide rolls in.
As Plexa has pointed out, “post Savior Starcraft” (A State of Starcraft) is an arena in which “every game is a mental struggle for superiority”, a facet that came into play in both the EVER 2008 OSL and the Incruit 2008 OSL, where July and Stork respectively opened with aggressive, in-your-face builds that immediately put their less experienced opponents on the back foot.
”My belief in best of 5 series is not skill but your mind. That is why I 5-pooled in my first game.” - July, in his EVER 2008 OSL Winner InterviewIn Game 1 of the Incruit 2008 OSL Finals, Stork, with everything on the line, decided to bring his probes into play.
What did Stork and July have that Best and Fantasy didn't? Was it experience? Could be. It's obvious however, that it was a psychological advantage, gained not only by their time in the pro gaming scene, but also by their attitude to the game. While the two SKT1 youngsters seem to approach Starcraft from a highly technical point of view that focuses on speed and accuracy, Stork and July are remnants of the old school, who relied on another factor, a facet of the game that cannot be so easily dissected - attitude.
As Stork showed in his epic Semi Final timing push against Best, even the best (again, pun intended) build orders can be mauled by ingenuity, quick thinking, and split second decision making – none of which can be practiced. This was not mechanics. It was mind.
Stork, entering The Zone.Fantasy, wondering what just happened.
July, after five pooling against the same Protoss, carried that psychological advantage with him through till the last game, where he departed from his usual style of play and walked all over his opponent using five bases. This was not mechanics. It was mind.
In the end, it was just a walk in the park for both of them.
While heightened mechanics have certainly changed the way pro SC is played, my contention is that this trend will soon wane, especially as older players adapt to the technically proficient new comers. The mechanical revolution is nearing its end, and the future is going to revolve around the players that can put mind over matter. You can teach macro, you can teach micro, but you can't teach attitude.
This, in essence, is where Starcraft can be separated as an Art and a Science. Mechanics, speed, accuracy, these are the scientific elements of the game – they can be measured precisely, and executed with great precision. They form the base of the game at the higher levels. No player, no matter how skilled he or she is, is gonna be able to perform with the professionals if he or she doesn't have his basic technicalities down. In short, courage hopefuls need to macro it up if they want to get anywhere.
Having said that, what really separates the best from the rest is the Art of Starcraft, that unmistakable visual poetry that the likes of Boxer display. Unlike mechanics, this flair, this attitude, this oomph cannot be practiced. Watching Lim Yo Hwan lock down multiple carriers, or EMP and nuke a Nexus is akin to watching a great artist at work. There is not just technical proficiency in his strokes, there is also beauty, and grace, and dominance – the assurance that The Emperor knows what he is doing, and that nothing, and no one can stop him. Very few players hit this plane in games these days, but when they do, time really does stand still.
Sure, hours of practice do pay off, as seen by the OSL titles held by Flash and Jaedong. However, sometimes, you just gotta make like Stork's DTs on their way into Fantasy's main, and wing it. With Proleague five days a week, and three simultaneous individual leagues, we all get to see a lot of Starcraft. Some games are exciting, some are boring, but in general, the pro scene is pretty entertaining.
Then again, sometimes, for a game or two, we get to see a player step up and do the unexpected, the unorthodox, the unbelievable. Time stands still, and you just stare open mouthed as four mines hit each other and die, and listen intently as two Dark Templar high five themselves in a shuttle that seems to own the very sky itself. That, right there, is the Art, the mind, the attitude that separates the maestros from the mechaniacs, and is what will define the game in the months to come.
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Good read, thank you.
I surely think this has been a fact for a while. Boxer vs PuSan back in So1 
And mechanical players will often win single games eventhough they'll fail in BO5s.
Also I think Flash is a player relying less than Jaedong on his mechanics, but more on his mind.
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Nice article. The problem comes when mechanical players are as well great mind players, and that was Flash when he was on top form, and even Jaedong too.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 15 2008 21:07 Guybrush wrote:Good read, thank you. I surely think this has been a fact for a while. Boxer vs PuSan back in So1 And mechanical players will often win single games eventhough they'll fail in BO5s. While pusan's mechanics were strongly grounded, he didn't play that series standardly  not by a long shot. It was a very smartly played series by both sides... up until game 3 haha
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Great article, and nice banner (). I really hope 'the tide' will turn, as you say - mental games make SC so much more enjoyable and exciting. And human.
Also, the new frontpage really makes these TLFE shine :D
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On November 15 2008 21:17 klizzer wrote:Great article, and nice banner ( ). I really hope 'the tide' will turn, as you say - mental games make SC so much more enjoyable and exciting. And human. Also, the new frontpage really makes these TLFE shine :D
They definitely make SC more enjoyable. Can't wait to see boxer bring back the old school days when he get's back from military. Who knows, maybe his return will be the one to "turn the tide" of SC.. yet again.
Great write up!
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Savior----> Uses brain
July----> Uses brain
but not Stork OK ? He is ROBOT! I dont think that he uses his brain. Just tacticks.
Jaedong and FLash also are ROBOTS !
PS: nice thread
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Netherlands19130 Posts
Wooot nice one r1ptide
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I agree 100%, the attitude, experience and confidence of a player is what really makes a champion. Look at Stork in the OSL finals, facing down a robot royal-roader with such superiority. How many times had'nt Stork been there, in the finals, before? He knew exactly how it works, what sort of pressure is applied on the players etc etc. Fantasy had to rely on Oov to prepare him for this but it just did'nt cut it.
I hope we get to see a reinvention of the micro- and strategy intensive playstyles as opposed to the mechanical ones we see so much of today.
Edit: Great article by the way!
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Nicely written. Really enjoed the read.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 15 2008 22:13 Makhno wrote:
I agree 100%, the attitude, experience and confidence of a player is what really makes a champion. Look at Stork in the OSL finals, facing down a robot royal-roader with such superiority. How many times had'nt Stork been there, in the finals, before? He knew exactly how it works, what sort of pressure is applied on the players etc etc. Fantasy had to rely on Oov to prepare him for this but it just did'nt cut it.
I hope we get to see a reinvention of the micro- and strategy intensive playstyles as opposed to the mechanical ones we see so much of today.
Edit: Great article by the way!
I actually enjoy seeing two beasts with insanely good mechanics battle it out. They reach the perfection of the game where you cannot be better anymore. Flasn and Jaedong when they were at their top was just insane, they were so good. Basicaly, no one could beat them and when these two giants faced each other they produced really high quality games, above the usual.
Of course I enjoy watching micro- and stragtegy intensive play as well. Godlike mechanichs mixed with BoxeR's brain would be awesome to see!
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+ Show Spoiler + It was said in Mind game article how impressively Flash was mind playing Stork in OSL final . He is also mentioned to have very good mental strenght in the state of starcraft article, and then now you are saying that Flash is mechaniacs??
I would be skeptical to call any of 3-2 match a win of mind over mechanics, especially the Stork vs Fantasy series, it was ballsy imo and luck ofcourse. It is understandable to call them like that for 3-0 win depending on how it is played. And for the rest, how do you differentiate between mind over mechanics win and a win of better mechanics?
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9070 Posts
Great article, thou I must respectfully disagree with JD being pure mechanic monster. As much as I dont like him, he is imo the smartest zerg for now. His borrowing tactics vs sair/reaver, obs snipes are to prove my statement. Just watch JD vs Bisu on colosseum, the hydra traps for bisu's shuttles were amazing. JD knows how to adapt in most of the situations.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
wouldn't flash's osl win vs stork count as mind and not mechanics though? ~_~
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On November 15 2008 21:51 simcar wrote:
Savior----> Uses brain
July----> Uses brain
but not Stork OK ? He is ROBOT! I dont think that he uses his brain. Just tacticks.
Jaedong and FLash also are ROBOTS !
PS: nice thread
Savior---> does the same 3 hatch muta every game to turtle 3 base and defiler, take a 4th base and ultra
same every game gg
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2 Zoler , in replays he did 3 hatch play,but watch his VODS and u will see that he is talent,and he uses his brain.ROBOTS can not be in FINALS 6 times without break !!! see---> Jaedong,FLash etc...
I think u + Show Spoiler +noob!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STFU PLS
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Good read =) I'd like to see more mind over matter game~ Its much more exciting :D
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Very nice read! Thx riptide!
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On November 15 2008 23:50 simcar wrote:2 Zoler , in replays he did 3 hatch play,but watch his VODS and u will see that he is talent,and he uses his brain.ROBOTS can not be in FINALS 6 times without break !!! see---> Jaedong,FLash etc... I think u + Show Spoiler +noob!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STFU PLS
hahahha I see you are a fanboy. fanboys always get angry when you say something bad about their love. and what, he is talent?  ]
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
Awesome read. I'm still amazed that this humble 2D game of Brood War that is over 10 years old is being constantly re-discovered everyday
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Nice read, very very well written.
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Very nice read which is very well written! thx
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I remember Boxers lockdown on Battlecruiesers (Nada's i think) or a godly match Nal_ra vs Savior or Nal_ra vs Boxer.
Old times, old times...
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On November 16 2008 00:05 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 23:50 simcar wrote:2 Zoler , in replays he did 3 hatch play,but watch his VODS and u will see that he is talent,and he uses his brain.ROBOTS can not be in FINALS 6 times without break !!! see---> Jaedong,FLash etc... I think u + Show Spoiler +noob!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STFU PLS hahahha I see you are a fanboy. fanboys always get angry when you say something bad about their love. and what, he is talent? ]
maybe he meant talented...
and yeah, I agree with your post zoler, he did the same thing every game, but I think that you failed to mention that his game was untouchable thats why he had that 90% win rate and you got flamed by someone with less that 20 posts.
I haven't really been in the sAviOr era, but I think he was one of the great players who were untouchable, won an OSL, then slumped, and is making a come back. This is when the Mind gets in, just look at Boxer, 2 straight OSLs, only getting defeated by the Legend Of Fall (like 4 times). He is a very good example of a player with a good, even exceptional, mental strength. sAviOr stayed in the spotlight with his perfect game sense and his talent, but after winning the OSL, he went into a slump.
I'd love to see him in a comeback. and yeah, he is a fanboy.
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On November 16 2008 00:19 SilverSkyLark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 00:05 Zoler wrote:On November 15 2008 23:50 simcar wrote:2 Zoler , in replays he did 3 hatch play,but watch his VODS and u will see that he is talent,and he uses his brain.ROBOTS can not be in FINALS 6 times without break !!! see---> Jaedong,FLash etc... I think u + Show Spoiler +noob!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STFU PLS hahahha I see you are a fanboy. fanboys always get angry when you say something bad about their love. and what, he is talent? ] maybe he meant talented... and yeah, I agree with your post zoler, he did the same thing every game, but I think that you failed to mention that his game was untouchable thats why he had that 90% win rate and you got flamed by someone with less that 20 posts. I haven't really been in the sAviOr era, but I think he was one of the great players who were untouchable, won an OSL, then slumped, and is making a come back. This is when the Mind gets in, just look at Boxer, 2 straight OSLs, only getting defeated by the Legend Of Fall (like 4 times). He is a very good example of a player with a good, even exceptional, mental strength. sAviOr stayed in the spotlight with his perfect game sense and his talent, but after winning the OSL, he went into a slump. I'd love to see him in a comeback. and yeah, he is a fanboy.
That is very true Savior won a lot, but 90%? Give me source on that fact pls.
This is the one with the greatest domination ever and he isnt even at 90%. Iloveoovs domination was far greater than Saviors. Mental strength? I dont think so. The players with mental strength is called Boxer and Nada. Read this FE:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=73114
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On November 16 2008 00:19 Phradamon wrote:
I remember Boxers lockdown on Battlecruiesers (Nada's i think) or a godly match Nal_ra vs Savior or Nal_ra vs Boxer.
Old times, old times...
yeah, nal_Ra vs savior on shin beaks was very nice (Both games, the short and long one)..
nal_rA vs boxer was another epic one, the one in andromeda, it was like "Shit, that was possible in that match up???"
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On November 16 2008 00:26 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 00:19 SilverSkyLark wrote:On November 16 2008 00:05 Zoler wrote:On November 15 2008 23:50 simcar wrote:2 Zoler , in replays he did 3 hatch play,but watch his VODS and u will see that he is talent,and he uses his brain.ROBOTS can not be in FINALS 6 times without break !!! see---> Jaedong,FLash etc... I think u + Show Spoiler +noob!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STFU PLS hahahha I see you are a fanboy. fanboys always get angry when you say something bad about their love. and what, he is talent? ] maybe he meant talented... and yeah, I agree with your post zoler, he did the same thing every game, but I think that you failed to mention that his game was untouchable thats why he had that 90% win rate and you got flamed by someone with less that 20 posts. I haven't really been in the sAviOr era, but I think he was one of the great players who were untouchable, won an OSL, then slumped, and is making a come back. This is when the Mind gets in, just look at Boxer, 2 straight OSLs, only getting defeated by the Legend Of Fall (like 4 times). He is a very good example of a player with a good, even exceptional, mental strength. sAviOr stayed in the spotlight with his perfect game sense and his talent, but after winning the OSL, he went into a slump. I'd love to see him in a comeback. and yeah, he is a fanboy. That is very true Savior won a lot, but 90%? Give me source on that fact pls. This is the one with the greatest domination ever and he isnt even at 90%. Iloveoovs domination was far greater than Saviors. Mental strength? I dont think so. The players with mental strength is called Boxer and Nada. Read this FE: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=73114
Hmm, I remember a vid I saw and there was something like 90.something% win percentage. I'm not sure because the text was in Korean, its just a short highlight vid.
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On November 16 2008 00:31 SilverSkyLark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 00:26 Zoler wrote:On November 16 2008 00:19 SilverSkyLark wrote:On November 16 2008 00:05 Zoler wrote:On November 15 2008 23:50 simcar wrote:2 Zoler , in replays he did 3 hatch play,but watch his VODS and u will see that he is talent,and he uses his brain.ROBOTS can not be in FINALS 6 times without break !!! see---> Jaedong,FLash etc... I think u + Show Spoiler +noob!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STFU PLS hahahha I see you are a fanboy. fanboys always get angry when you say something bad about their love. and what, he is talent? ] maybe he meant talented... and yeah, I agree with your post zoler, he did the same thing every game, but I think that you failed to mention that his game was untouchable thats why he had that 90% win rate and you got flamed by someone with less that 20 posts. I haven't really been in the sAviOr era, but I think he was one of the great players who were untouchable, won an OSL, then slumped, and is making a come back. This is when the Mind gets in, just look at Boxer, 2 straight OSLs, only getting defeated by the Legend Of Fall (like 4 times). He is a very good example of a player with a good, even exceptional, mental strength. sAviOr stayed in the spotlight with his perfect game sense and his talent, but after winning the OSL, he went into a slump. I'd love to see him in a comeback. and yeah, he is a fanboy. That is very true Savior won a lot, but 90%? Give me source on that fact pls. This is the one with the greatest domination ever and he isnt even at 90%. Iloveoovs domination was far greater than Saviors. Mental strength? I dont think so. The players with mental strength is called Boxer and Nada. Read this FE: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=73114 Hmm, I remember a vid I saw and there was something like 90.something% win percentage. I'm not sure because the text was in Korean, its just a short highlight vid.
yeah that is true, but that was his winning percentage is just that tournament, it wasnt his overall percentage
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really really nice read, GJ
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Was a nice read, but I felt that the third last paragraph was a bit unnecessary. Might just be that I'm a bit too used to reading about the "grace" and "oomph" of Boxer. That entire paragraph is just too mushy and romantic for me, really. =P
Again, other than that paragraph, I really enjoyed this read.
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I thought by the time BeSt lost to July in the OSL finals, it was impossible for him to be a Royal Roader because he had already participated in another OSL?
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nice read!
I would call it "psychology" instead of "attitude" though. Its not really new as well and I think u missed the biggest and longest phenomena in this respect to date - Saviors dominance. His dominance was almost purely due to psychology or "attitude", as you call it. Once Bisu broke his psychological armor of invincibility, it was over.
to zoler: savior did not just use the same strat again and again... beautiful early guards against midas or his unbelievable defence of daezangs 4 gate zeal push come to mind... he was very much adaptable in his prime. What would you think made him this dominant? He sure wasnt the dominant monster of his time because he just could play one BO nobody had an answer to. It was psychology or "attitude" that set him far apart from his opponents, everyone in their right mind who actually watched the games during the Savior era can agree with that I think.
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really nice article, and yeah I must agree. When that flare shows it is absolutely incredible.
Do we all remember Casy vs Sea.jy?
+ Show Spoiler [game vod] +
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Holy Sh*t, amazing write up.
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I always thought Jaedong struggled because he didn't have a tough enough mind to keep himself at the top of his game constantly. Jaedong in his prime seemed to be really creative, or at least adaptable. He seems to have a more flexible style than sAviOr and July.
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On November 16 2008 02:54 mister.bubbles wrote:
I always thought Jaedong struggled because he didn't have a tough enough mind to keep himself at the top of his game constantly. Jaedong in his prime seemed to be really creative, or at least adaptable. He seems to have a more flexible style than sAviOr and July.
that is my thought too
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Ooh~
Nice read. Nice read indeed~
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yeah jaedong and flash are some of the smartest players around right now
while there is a huge focus on mechanics, and they are the best at mechanics in their respective races, they are also know for being smart (if not always flashy) players
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wonder kind = wonder kid, fix!
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United States17042 Posts
very nice read. Good writeup.
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This was very well written and hits the nail on the head. good job, would read again.
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awesome readd
def mind > mech
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Yeah, I had this in my head as I was reading the article, as well. XD
Pretty interesting article. It would be great if SC returned to old school form.
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On November 15 2008 23:07 disciple wrote:
Great article, thou I must respectfully disagree with JD being pure mechanic monster. As much as I dont like him, he is imo the smartest zerg for now. His borrowing tactics vs sair/reaver, obs snipes are to prove my statement. Just watch JD vs Bisu on colosseum, the hydra traps for bisu's shuttles were amazing. JD knows how to adapt in most of the situations.
Yeah, not to mention the fact how he toyed with UpMagic. Remember the game on Fantasy?
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Great read. I am really impressed with the conclusion's separation of the 'art' and 'science' of Starcraft - Fantastically put.
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Katowice25012 Posts
I agree with much of this, starcraft is a very dynamic game and the balance between mechanics and inventive play is a cyclical process. Stork is an interesting study in this concept, he went from being a very inventive player (in his earlier days) to becoming an absolute machine. When he played fantasy in the OSL though he pulled out all the stops and there was a ton of creative and inventive play. Even now in single games he often plays a boring style, but he clearly knows when to bring out non-standard moves in a series.
The pendulum is going to swing back. Players will catch up to what jd/flash have (I like how you refer to it as normalization) and then the edge will have to be gained by players who are able to think on the fly, and the cycle will continue.
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good read but the part about stork bringing in probes is kind of out of context since it wasnt like an all in rush (like july's 5pool) since he did it after he knew that he won already and was just proving a point for psychological damage if anything.
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On November 16 2008 02:45 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:really nice article, and yeah I must agree. When that flare shows it is absolutely incredible. Do we all remember Casy vs Sea.jy? + Show Spoiler [game vod] +
i'm pretty sure he didn't retire because of that.
good article. for me i'd have to say i like watching mechanics more than anything.
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I cant remember that MJY had 90%,but until facing Bisu his ZvP was about 86%.
2 Zoler,i see u even dont understand what SC:BW is.+ Show Spoiler +MB u are player D rank in iccup
And my advice for some users of teamliquid :+ Show Spoiler + guys, before posting something ,at least learn how to play sc,pls gain at least B- in iccup and then post PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,thank you
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On November 16 2008 05:04 NahLGaE wrote:
good read but the part about stork bringing in probes is kind of out of context since it wasnt like an all in rush (like july's 5pool) since he did it after he knew that he won already and was just proving a point for psychological damage if anything.
Isn't that the point of the article? Mind games for psychological damage? How is it out of context?
On November 16 2008 06:26 simcar wrote:I cant remember that MJY had 90%,but until facing Bisu his ZvP was about 86%. 2 Zoler,i see u even dont understand what SC:BW is. + Show Spoiler +MB u are player D rank in iccup Just watch Savior's game againt anybody,in BO3 and in BO5 he never used 1 strat again. For example in GOMTV MSL S3 againts Free[gm] he didnt use same tacticks. Just watch it. And my advice for some users of teamliquid : + Show Spoiler + guys, before posting something ,at least learn how to play sc,pls gain at least B- in iccup and then post PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,thank you
I find your posts disrespectful, and I couldn't disagree more. I am a poor player, but I can still post more intelligently than you are apparently capable of.
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On November 16 2008 06:26 simcar wrote:I cant remember that MJY had 90%,but until facing Bisu his ZvP was about 86%. 2 Zoler,i see u even dont understand what SC:BW is. + Show Spoiler +MB u are player D rank in iccup Just watch Savior's game againt anybody,in BO3 and in BO5 he never used 1 strat again. For example in GOMTV MSL S3 againts Free[gm] he didnt use same tacticks. Just watch it. And my advice for some users of teamliquid : + Show Spoiler + guys, before posting something ,at least learn how to play sc,pls gain at least B- in iccup and then post PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,thank you
Jesus, what's with all the banworthy garbage I've been encountering in the past week? Maybe it's just bad luck, but it seems every thread I go into lately has some trolling asshole MEATGRINDERING shit out of his mouth.
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On November 16 2008 06:24 kramus wrote:i'm pretty sure he didn't retire because of that. good article. for me i'd have to say i like watching mechanics more than anything.
that was the last game before he retired. I dont know if any interviews have ever been translated, but its long been believed that failing to make that OSL caused him to retire. And casy was the one to knock him out of OSC.
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On November 16 2008 06:26 simcar wrote:I cant remember that MJY had 90%,but until facing Bisu his ZvP was about 86%. 2 Zoler,i see u even dont understand what SC:BW is. + Show Spoiler +MB u are player D rank in iccup Just watch Savior's game againt anybody,in BO3 and in BO5 he never used 1 strat again. For example in GOMTV MSL S3 againts Free[gm] he didnt use same tacticks. Just watch it. And my advice for some users of teamliquid : + Show Spoiler + guys, before posting something ,at least learn how to play sc,pls gain at least B- in iccup and then post PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,thank you
lol well just to point out a little fun fact, Zoler was a B+ Terran, which I doubt you are.
Plus rest of your post doesn't even make sense, so I'm not even going to respond to any of it. Two other people have already done an exceptionally good job at mauling you for your blatant stupidity.
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On November 16 2008 06:26 simcar wrote:I cant remember that MJY had 90%,but until facing Bisu his ZvP was about 86%. 2 Zoler,i see u even dont understand what SC:BW is. + Show Spoiler +MB u are player D rank in iccup Just watch Savior's game againt anybody,in BO3 and in BO5 he never used 1 strat again. For example in GOMTV MSL S3 againts Free[gm] he didnt use same tacticks. Just watch it. And my advice for some users of teamliquid : + Show Spoiler + guys, before posting something ,at least learn how to play sc,pls gain at least B- in iccup and then post PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,thank you
Lol, How old are you kid?
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Reminds me when Jaedong 9pooled against Flash's FE in an ace match in PL.
He just started crying.
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Nice article riptide, we should have a game of sc soon
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On November 16 2008 06:26 simcar wrote:I cant remember that MJY had 90%,but until facing Bisu his ZvP was about 86%. 2 Zoler,i see u even dont understand what SC:BW is. + Show Spoiler +MB u are player D rank in iccup Just watch Savior's game againt anybody,in BO3 and in BO5 he never used 1 strat again. For example in GOMTV MSL S3 againts Free[gm] he didnt use same tacticks. Just watch it. And my advice for some users of teamliquid : + Show Spoiler + guys, before posting something ,at least learn how to play sc,pls gain at least B- in iccup and then post PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,thank you
pick your choice tl
this poster is:
A Troll
B Just stupid
C Just inmature
D Laugh because hell be baned in 1 week
E All of the above
Back on topic:
Nice article. I want to add something about the 2 top atm.
Stork has shown a big evolution in his mind game (the preparation during his osl run was almost flawless), and bisu has also shown improvement in this area. While thinking about why these two are again on top form i noted that they are not as good as they used to be: they are playing much better than that. Technically their game has not "evolved", its their decision making and bo choices that have become incredible good, has an example stork didnt repeat a BO on his osl run and bisu doesnt abuse of dt every game. I really want to see some Terran and Zerg improving in this area, and lastly I want that Best catches that this is the biggest leak in his game.
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Its true that mind is incredibly important in a series, or any game, but its not anymore important than it use to be. Nor is mechanics. Macro, and all around ability, have increased- but they have increased at a steady pace. A player can win now by pumping out more troops, just as often and just as effectively as a few years ago. A player can win by being confident and making his opponent the opposite, just as effectively as a few years ago. Nothing has changed. Mechanics are still the all important back bone. They are the thing that gives you the edge. Mind is what allows you to reach the challenge, mechanics is what pulls you through it.
First article ive disagreed with. No trend will be broken, because there is no trend. This is starcraft as it always was, only a lot, and I mean a lot, better.
Edit: If there is any confusion about what I meant: Mechanics allows you to overcome mind, mind allows you to overcome mechanics. They are one in the same. July, even with an advantage in confidence, would of not been able to defeat Best had he had poor macro, bad game sense, sloppy play, etc. You can not will yourself a victory. However Best could not have even reached the finals had he not had a huge degree of confidence, ability to inspire fear in his opponents, game sense, and style. Both are utterly required to play Starcraft to an optimum level, and therefore trying to splice, categorize, and evaluate their importance is nothing more than pointless.
'Style' for example, is nothing more than the difference in emphasis placed upon completely standarized, macro based play, and a more dangerous, assertive harass/aggressive based play. The skill sets are all there, and neither will reign supreme in definitely, for they are the same thing. Starcraft.
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I definitely agree, very nice read. The reason why older players are making a comeback definitely applies here. They're tightening up the mechanical aspects of the game, and are applying the mind games of old. If they can perfect and keep on par with the former, they will definitely make a comeback using the latter.
I would really love to see Jaedong take this next step. He plays in a very controlling style...if you watch his games, as long as he is never completely shaken, and can get back into the pace of the game, he never loses. If you are even with Jaedong, you will lose. The issue is his play lately has been lacking that kind of dominating flavor. He ripped through people with perfect play, but never really shows that "panache" or "flair" that is being discussed in this article...the focus on the mind game.
He's one of my favorite players, though, so I really hope to see him make it back on top. It'd be insane to see him transition into this kind of play. I think it'd be frightening in its dominance.
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Nice article. I wish I could have all the mechanics down and the timings and macro and micro right
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On November 16 2008 07:36 Mikilatov wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 06:26 simcar wrote:I cant remember that MJY had 90%,but until facing Bisu his ZvP was about 86%. 2 Zoler,i see u even dont understand what SC:BW is. + Show Spoiler +MB u are player D rank in iccup Just watch Savior's game againt anybody,in BO3 and in BO5 he never used 1 strat again. For example in GOMTV MSL S3 againts Free[gm] he didnt use same tacticks. Just watch it. And my advice for some users of teamliquid : + Show Spoiler + guys, before posting something ,at least learn how to play sc,pls gain at least B- in iccup and then post PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,thank you Jesus, what's with all the banworthy garbage I've been encountering in the past week? Maybe it's just bad luck, but it seems every thread I go into lately has some trolling asshole MEATGRINDERING shit out of his mouth.
Sorry to say I might have done some semi-trolling in a thread. It was late. I was frustrated.
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Well written. I enjoyed the article, thanks a bunch.
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Great Artlicle, very well put together I enjoyed it... I wonder what will be the constant for SC in 2009 seeing as sc2 is coming out soon.
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Well, Flash isnt just mechanics. He is also good in mind games when he was on top of his game. Bachus OSL shows it all. But he seemed to have lost this edge now probably because of overconfidence in his abilities to do risky builds and still win (14cc). But after watching the GOM2 ro32 game against Fantasy, I can say that the dominant attitude is almost back, it maybe even is back already. He probably got through the puberty stage already.
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HonestTea
5007 Posts
Must be Smart to win Bo5s
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I would criticize you for saying that Flash and Jaedong aren't using the mental side of the game, see Flash vs. Stork @ Bacchus. That was not mechanics, that was Stork being crushed by mindgames. See Flash vs. Jaedong @ GOM classic 1
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On November 16 2008 07:53 Lebesgue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 06:26 simcar wrote:I cant remember that MJY had 90%,but until facing Bisu his ZvP was about 86%. 2 Zoler,i see u even dont understand what SC:BW is. + Show Spoiler +MB u are player D rank in iccup Just watch Savior's game againt anybody,in BO3 and in BO5 he never used 1 strat again. For example in GOMTV MSL S3 againts Free[gm] he didnt use same tacticks. Just watch it. And my advice for some users of teamliquid : + Show Spoiler + guys, before posting something ,at least learn how to play sc,pls gain at least B- in iccup and then post PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,thank you Lol, How old are you kid?
On November 16 2008 07:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 06:26 simcar wrote:I cant remember that MJY had 90%,but until facing Bisu his ZvP was about 86%. 2 Zoler,i see u even dont understand what SC:BW is. + Show Spoiler +MB u are player D rank in iccup Just watch Savior's game againt anybody,in BO3 and in BO5 he never used 1 strat again. For example in GOMTV MSL S3 againts Free[gm] he didnt use same tacticks. Just watch it. And my advice for some users of teamliquid : + Show Spoiler + guys, before posting something ,at least learn how to play sc,pls gain at least B- in iccup and then post PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,thank you lol well just to point out a little fun fact, Zoler was a B+ Terran, which I doubt you are. Plus rest of your post doesn't even make sense, so I'm not even going to respond to any of it. Two other people have already done an exceptionally good job at mauling you for your blatant stupidity.
On November 16 2008 07:36 Mikilatov wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 06:26 simcar wrote:I cant remember that MJY had 90%,but until facing Bisu his ZvP was about 86%. 2 Zoler,i see u even dont understand what SC:BW is. + Show Spoiler +MB u are player D rank in iccup Just watch Savior's game againt anybody,in BO3 and in BO5 he never used 1 strat again. For example in GOMTV MSL S3 againts Free[gm] he didnt use same tacticks. Just watch it. And my advice for some users of teamliquid : + Show Spoiler + guys, before posting something ,at least learn how to play sc,pls gain at least B- in iccup and then post PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,thank you Jesus, what's with all the banworthy garbage I've been encountering in the past week? Maybe it's just bad luck, but it seems every thread I go into lately has some trolling asshole MEATGRINDERING shit out of his mouth.
On November 16 2008 06:48 CDRdude wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 05:04 NahLGaE wrote:
good read but the part about stork bringing in probes is kind of out of context since it wasnt like an all in rush (like july's 5pool) since he did it after he knew that he won already and was just proving a point for psychological damage if anything. Isn't that the point of the article? Mind games for psychological damage? How is it out of context? Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 06:26 simcar wrote:I cant remember that MJY had 90%,but until facing Bisu his ZvP was about 86%. 2 Zoler,i see u even dont understand what SC:BW is. + Show Spoiler +MB u are player D rank in iccup Just watch Savior's game againt anybody,in BO3 and in BO5 he never used 1 strat again. For example in GOMTV MSL S3 againts Free[gm] he didnt use same tacticks. Just watch it. And my advice for some users of teamliquid : + Show Spoiler + guys, before posting something ,at least learn how to play sc,pls gain at least B- in iccup and then post PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,thank you I find your posts disrespectful, and I couldn't disagree more. I am a poor player, but I can still post more intelligently than you are apparently capable of.
On November 16 2008 08:32 malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 06:26 simcar wrote:I cant remember that MJY had 90%,but until facing Bisu his ZvP was about 86%. 2 Zoler,i see u even dont understand what SC:BW is. + Show Spoiler +MB u are player D rank in iccup Just watch Savior's game againt anybody,in BO3 and in BO5 he never used 1 strat again. For example in GOMTV MSL S3 againts Free[gm] he didnt use same tacticks. Just watch it. And my advice for some users of teamliquid : + Show Spoiler + guys, before posting something ,at least learn how to play sc,pls gain at least B- in iccup and then post PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,thank you pick your choice tl this poster is: A Troll B Just stupid C Just immature D Laugh because hell be baned in 1 week E All of the above
Can't help but agree with you guys...
I'd choose E, and I think this dudes last 5 posts or so are dedicated to flame guys here with a hundred times more posts than his..
and yeah, fix your grammar first before you flame anyone, k?
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United States4126 Posts
This article has taken away the doubt in my mind that Boxer won't come back stronger than ever.
ALL HAIL THE EMPEROR!
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When ever i read articles like theze a two players come to mind hwasin and sea.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 16 2008 00:26 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 00:19 SilverSkyLark wrote:On November 16 2008 00:05 Zoler wrote:On November 15 2008 23:50 simcar wrote:2 Zoler , in replays he did 3 hatch play,but watch his VODS and u will see that he is talent,and he uses his brain.ROBOTS can not be in FINALS 6 times without break !!! see---> Jaedong,FLash etc... I think u + Show Spoiler +noob!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STFU PLS hahahha I see you are a fanboy. fanboys always get angry when you say something bad about their love. and what, he is talent? ] maybe he meant talented... and yeah, I agree with your post zoler, he did the same thing every game, but I think that you failed to mention that his game was untouchable thats why he had that 90% win rate and you got flamed by someone with less that 20 posts. I haven't really been in the sAviOr era, but I think he was one of the great players who were untouchable, won an OSL, then slumped, and is making a come back. This is when the Mind gets in, just look at Boxer, 2 straight OSLs, only getting defeated by the Legend Of Fall (like 4 times). He is a very good example of a player with a good, even exceptional, mental strength. sAviOr stayed in the spotlight with his perfect game sense and his talent, but after winning the OSL, he went into a slump. I'd love to see him in a comeback. and yeah, he is a fanboy. That is very true Savior won a lot, but 90%? Give me source on that fact pls. This is the one with the greatest domination ever and he isnt even at 90%. Iloveoovs domination was far greater than Saviors. Mental strength? I dont think so. The players with mental strength is called Boxer and Nada. Read this FE: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=73114 obtw Zoler, the reason why Savior never attained those kind of stats is that iloveoov literally busted out and went on a killing spree (23-0 vs z comes to mind). Whereas Savior was a B-Team practice partner for a lot of 04,05 before busting out and raping left right and center. Iloveoov had considerable mental strength in his prime as well hell the sheer fact that there was an iloveoov curse verifies that claim. Oov created his own persona on the world of starcraft and his mental strength was unparalleled when he was able to create that image and indeed live that image... however things had to change eventually ^.^
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United States4126 Posts
On November 16 2008 13:34 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 00:26 Zoler wrote:On November 16 2008 00:19 SilverSkyLark wrote:On November 16 2008 00:05 Zoler wrote:On November 15 2008 23:50 simcar wrote:2 Zoler , in replays he did 3 hatch play,but watch his VODS and u will see that he is talent,and he uses his brain.ROBOTS can not be in FINALS 6 times without break !!! see---> Jaedong,FLash etc... I think u + Show Spoiler +noob!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STFU PLS hahahha I see you are a fanboy. fanboys always get angry when you say something bad about their love. and what, he is talent? ] maybe he meant talented... and yeah, I agree with your post zoler, he did the same thing every game, but I think that you failed to mention that his game was untouchable thats why he had that 90% win rate and you got flamed by someone with less that 20 posts. I haven't really been in the sAviOr era, but I think he was one of the great players who were untouchable, won an OSL, then slumped, and is making a come back. This is when the Mind gets in, just look at Boxer, 2 straight OSLs, only getting defeated by the Legend Of Fall (like 4 times). He is a very good example of a player with a good, even exceptional, mental strength. sAviOr stayed in the spotlight with his perfect game sense and his talent, but after winning the OSL, he went into a slump. I'd love to see him in a comeback. and yeah, he is a fanboy. That is very true Savior won a lot, but 90%? Give me source on that fact pls. This is the one with the greatest domination ever and he isnt even at 90%. Iloveoovs domination was far greater than Saviors. Mental strength? I dont think so. The players with mental strength is called Boxer and Nada. Read this FE: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=73114 obtw Zoler, the reason why Savior never attained those kind of stats is that iloveoov literally busted out and went on a killing spree (23-0 vs z comes to mind). Whereas Savior was a B-Team practice partner for a lot of 04,05 before busting out and raping left right and center. Iloveoov had considerable mental strength in his prime as well hell the sheer fact that there was an iloveoov curse verifies that claim. Oov created his own persona on the world of starcraft and his mental strength was unparalleled when he was able to create that image and indeed live that image... however things had to change eventually ^.^
Should've just linked to your iloveoov articles instead of typing that out
He really was a beast.
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"Kingdom's apprentice, the expectations were high for him to walk the Royal Road"
wasnt that his second OSL?
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Hmm.. I'm not sure you've really made the case that  Stork is a 'mind' player rather than a 'mechanics' one.
Personally I think a much better argument could be made just by viewing rA and  BoxeR and their play for the past 2-3 years. After all, their brilliance was the only reason they weren't terrible players once their mechanics were clearly second-rate to all the newer players.
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On November 16 2008 19:51 Geo.Rion wrote:
"Kingdom's apprentice, the expectations were high for him to walk the Royal Road"
wasnt that his second OSL?
I think this was meant for the time where he lost to Stork on the Ro8 I think, because of the imbalance that is Fantasy (The map)
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United States2186 Posts
Hmm, while pretty indepth, I don't agree with the thesis and some of the evidence at all. As someone who has watched almost all of Flash's games, he almost never wins just because of mechanics. When Flash just plays standard against A level players, much less S level players, he does really badly (all his losses vs Jaedong outside of Loki, game 2 vs Lux). Flash's success comes from predicting his opponent's actions and gaining maximum economic advantage or good build orders at the right times. He's definitely a neo-iloveoov, winning with intelligence and game sense. And Bacchus was the final most won on intelligence, the only other one coming close is Shinhan oov vs July.
His mechanics are similar to old Savior: very solid, but they don't win games alone. Jaedong for example, can win games solely with obscene mechanics. Look at game 3 vs Lomo on Katrina or his game on Blue Storm vs Upmagic (in the semis).
There is a definite difference between mechanics that win on their own and mechanics that flawlessly execute strategies. Jaedong is the former, Flash is the latter.
Who else besides Jaedong has these mechanics that can win games on their own? Bisu is really the only one that comes to mind. Stork's mechanics are very good but imo not really at the same level.
It's really the same as in the past. Nada, July, and Kingdom were all players who were a head above the rest with mechanics and were able to win so much because of it (you could make an argument for Boxer/Casy but the tvp issues...). To draw the same parallel, Reach had amazing mechanics but they more supported his play, while Kingdom's mechanics simply raped. I don't think anything has really changed or will change for the foreseeable future.
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On November 16 2008 06:26 simcar wrote:I cant remember that MJY had 90%,but until facing Bisu his ZvP was about 86%. 2 Zoler,i see u even dont understand what SC:BW is. + Show Spoiler +MB u are player D rank in iccup Just watch Savior's game againt anybody,in BO3 and in BO5 he never used 1 strat again. For example in GOMTV MSL S3 againts Free[gm] he didnt use same tacticks. Just watch it. And my advice for some users of teamliquid : + Show Spoiler + guys, before posting something ,at least learn how to play sc,pls gain at least B- in iccup and then post PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,thank you
I shouldnt drag this up but I gotta agree with all the people that defended me. Maybe you have a point but you gotta argue with real facts and not just flame.
I dont have very much knowledge about Savior (I havent watched all his games) but for example the MSL final vs Bisu he did the exact same build order every game. And I'm not saying he did that in all of his games but in the most of his games he did his good old macro opening.
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Yes, Mind Over Mechanics, it was already thus
July experience > best mechanics
Stork experiece > fantasy mechanics
but both mechanics and experience have incredible role in starcraft thats why its so fantastic
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I'm not sure I agree fully. While mindgames have the advantage of throwing the opponent offguard, it doesn't and will not win you the game unless you can utterly and completely shatter your opponents concentration. While using tripple bunker-rush as a mindgame worked for boxer against yellow, he couldn't throw oov offguard enough to take it home. Oovs mechanics and strong will simply prevailed.
In the end, mindgames are basically very out-of-the-box mechanics, and any player with an open mind can accomplish this. Jaedong for example can play mindgames by relying on his mechanics alone; he doesn't need to do some low-econ strategy with weird units mixed in like boxer does to still completely overwhelm his opponent with something unexpected. Like when he did nothing but mutas in his bo5 vs much in the first two games, or completely skipped hydratech against corsairs on katrina in the finals vs stork. Flash completely changed how katrina was played TvP with his awesome goliath-focused build etc.
My point is, while mindgames are, and always has been, strong, they are really only so vs players that aren't innovative or have an open mind to begin with, and thus are not something that can beat a player a very strong player that relies on mechanics; if that was the case, boxer would've beaten oov 4 years ago.
Then we have players like BeSt with strong mechanics but not much else; strong like hell, but innovative like a cucumber, which is why july beat him. Stork didn't beat Fantasy by playing mindgames or anything; if he did, he would've won 3-0, but instead he himself almost lost 2-3. Strong mechanics prevailed in the end, and always will do unless the opponent truly is insecure and/or strictly orthodox in his play. What it all comes down to is how secure the player is in doing straight-up play - if he can't win by it, he'll HAVE to rely on something else, but this doesn't mean that all those old-school players will suddenly start winning because they have some 'style', 'flair' and 'experience' that new-school players for some reason would lack; it's because their only way of winning nowadays is by finding new ways to disturb the mechanic type players from playing their type of game. This isn't some kind of revolution that will suddenly throw players like JD and Flash from the top, rather it'll just develop into new mechanics and methods for the 'mechaniacs' to play their game, while the old-school players will have to rely on these mindgames to stay in the game; but they'll never reach the top.
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This was an awesome article!
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Finally! Someone acknowledges that Starcraft requires more brainpower than Guitar Hero.
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Uhm...
I don't really think Stork should be in this. At least not on the *pro* side...
Fantasy was not broken by Storks game 1, it was a standard Proxy which is not uncommon on that map. The probes came in but by then it was over anyway and Fantasy knew this, everyone knew this. Had Stork pulled his Probes immediately with the first Zealot that would have been a statement, the way he did it, he was just speeding up his win a bit.
And saying that Stork won because of his mind hits me... Uhm... It was a 3-2 and Stork lost 2 games in a row... If anything Storks mind nearly crushed himself because he took 2 easy victories in the beginning. Fantasy was just no match for a Stork that was on his game (game 2 and 5 really show that, Game 1 showed just how nervous Fantasy was).
Best was truly crushed by July...
5 Pool is a whole different Story than a Proxgate... You don't see it that often... Best held it off (lost Pylon/Forge) but countered really bad (double proxgate.. wtf?) and probably was hit even harder by the ongoing game in which he who had survived that rush without much problems wasn't able to do anything about July gaining his economy and finally ending the game with pretty fast Mutalisks... That’s not how a Zerg after a ~half-failed rush should end up.
Game 2? It looked so normal, I'm sure best felt save and was very comfortable. And then? Well :bisuface:, out of nowhere he got beate, there was no sign for him to see that this was coming... The drones just came, drilled and he was beaten... Feeling comfortable to being beaten in 3 seconds. That hurt, it must hurt even more because best *knew* that his built was fine... But obviously not tested against dronedrills. Best just met the probably only Zerg that had the guts and would not hesitate to do such a thing after he saw the weakness in Bests built on that map.
In game 3 you saw the effect. July played it save with masses of Terrors. What did Best? He was to scared to even try a drop... This game was decided because Best never used his Reaver/Corsair... Whats the point of Reaver Corsair again? Ah, making you mobile and making you able to harass... His whole BO was fine but he just felt like he could not hurt July with it anyway (and he probably couldn't seeing the masses of Terrors July had, but he had to try it if he wanted to win... He was just to broken to take the risk).
As I see it... Fantasy vs Stork was more about Fantasy overcoming his own nerves and then later Stork overcoming his own nerves. July vs Best was about a nervous newcomer being mauled by a way more experienced player that completely messed him up. Flash vs Stork was just... Flash's BO/Macro > Stork's BO/Makro... 3 times (boring)...
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You are giving too much credit to Julys aggression in game1 and 2. Sure it was a part of his win, but it's not like BeSt would have won if July didnt have the psychological adventage. July is a monster ZvP, and isnt going to lose unless hes put behind by some cheese, or 2gate push. Bisu and Kal are the only ones able to put up a fight in a straight up game. I've also never seen Bisu get as mauled by a zerg as he was when he played July last OSL on Chupung-Ryeong.
BeSt was thoroughly outplayed on Andromeda. BeSt is just terrible vs zerg, and I think he would have lost the game on Andromeda against any competent zergplayer. Losses against keke and Jy on protossmaps like Destination, and Katrina ? wtf ?
The reason he has troubles PvZ is because his control lacks, and it lacks because hes too busy babysitting his gateways and nexuses 24/7. Even Stork has better corsairplay, and that says alot. Reach never fixed his PvZ despite having Nal_rA on his team a long time, and that's the story with BeSt and Bisu as well. To make matters worse the SKT zergs are some of the worst zergs around. Bisu is surely practicing with other zergs when he can.
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doesn't Nal_rA have the highest elo in PvZ?
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@Guybrush
Yes, probably July would also have won vs Best in 2 more *normal* games.
But if you looked at best after the 2-0 he was already defeated. July, superior or not, made just a statement with his first 2 games. Best never saw a chance to win one of these games, he never had one and you saw that in game 3. Best took basically no risks, played sloppy with his corsairs and did not really move out until his army was close to the feared *Protoss-Blob-of-limitless-Zerg-dead*.
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Very good article, I wonder are the article writers professional journalists of some sort here?
Anyways, these 2 sentences sum up the idea for me perfectly - "the assurance that The Emperor knows what he is doing, and that nothing, and no one can stop him. Very few players hit this plane in games these days, but when they do, time really does stand still."
And I know that feeling for myself... To be in complete control, to know exactly what and when to do regardless how good your opponent is doing. It's godlike
And I'm not talking about StarCraft here, and not necessarily even a game...
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On November 16 2008 21:59 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 06:26 simcar wrote:I cant remember that MJY had 90%,but until facing Bisu his ZvP was about 86%. 2 Zoler,i see u even dont understand what SC:BW is. + Show Spoiler +MB u are player D rank in iccup Just watch Savior's game againt anybody,in BO3 and in BO5 he never used 1 strat again. For example in GOMTV MSL S3 againts Free[gm] he didnt use same tacticks. Just watch it. And my advice for some users of teamliquid : + Show Spoiler + guys, before posting something ,at least learn how to play sc,pls gain at least B- in iccup and then post PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,thank you I shouldnt drag this up but I gotta agree with all the people that defended me. Maybe you have a point but you gotta argue with real facts and not just flame. I dont have very much knowledge about Savior (I havent watched all his games) but for example the MSL final vs Bisu he did the exact same build order every game. And I'm not saying he did that in all of his games but in the most of his games he did his good old macro opening.
Yeah, most of them. However he was able to change his tactics up in a decisive and clever way sometimes such as this game against Flash where he masses zerglings after the 3-hatch instead of going straight to mutas in order to catch Flash out:
http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=R1cduBIZr2Y
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Very nicely written. Thanks for it, riptide!
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great read...
awesome banner zxk3 =) keep it up
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I don't agree.. you talk about mechanics as if its a trend which will disappear. i personally hope there will come some player with a even more creative style AND mechanical perfection. but i don't complain in my opinion there is already heaps of players both technical and creative as hell.
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I don't agree.. you talk about mechanics as if its a trend which will disappear. i personally hope there will come some player with a even more creative style AND mechanical perfection. but i don't complain in my opinion there is already heaps of players both technical and creative as hell.
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On November 15 2008 23:07 disciple wrote:
Great article, thou I must respectfully disagree with JD being pure mechanic monster. As much as I dont like him, he is imo the smartest zerg for now. His borrowing tactics vs sair/reaver, obs snipes are to prove my statement. Just watch JD vs Bisu on colosseum, the hydra traps for bisu's shuttles were amazing. JD knows how to adapt in most of the situations.
+1, and I must say, I didn`t expect you to say that . `grats!
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nice read indeed! thanks!
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You just read 4 FEs in 5 minutes?
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Thats what i was thinking
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bumped because i was thinking of writing something like this and then happened to have an awesome conversation with the the author himself on irc. he linked this to me. worth the (re)read.
+ Show Spoiler +please dont ban me 
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Yea this final edit was another one of my favorites, I don't think bumping a good final edit is wrong at all. It was an interesting article!
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Definitely worth the read. Thanks for the bump =) Wouldn't have read it otherwise.
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Thanks for the bump. I wholeheartedly agree with all of this article. I believe that that if SC2 doesn't wipe out the pro scene then the next generation of SC gamer will have mastered mechanics and 'attitude' as the author so eloquently put it.
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EPT![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Mind_Over_Mechanics/mindover.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/MSLPreview/OovScaryRecord.jpg)
