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I Loved Victory (Part Two) - Page 3

Forum Index > Final Edits
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Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
March 07 2008 12:25 GMT
#41
With regard to Gorush having 16 win streak, i dont think KT-KTF counted as an official event when calculating these streaks (from a KeSPA point of view) thus GoRush only had a 12 game winning streak - 1 game short
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
March 07 2008 13:56 GMT
#42
This was excellent.
Artosis *
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States2140 Posts
March 07 2008 16:16 GMT
#43
plexa deserves money
Commentatorhttp://twitter.com/Artosis
Guybrush
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
Spain4744 Posts
March 07 2008 18:46 GMT
#44
KT-KTF should really count as an official event. They were huge, both prizemoneywise and skillwise.

Awesome read, thank you again
Live2Win is awesome. Happy new year scarabi!
xBTx
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Canada542 Posts
March 07 2008 21:01 GMT
#45
phenomenal. Thank you for so extensively covering the strategy bits of his play
stuffing feathers up your butt doesnt make you a chicken
FusionCutter
Profile Joined October 2004
Canada974 Posts
March 07 2008 21:15 GMT
#46
Insane article. Thanks.
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
March 07 2008 21:53 GMT
#47
Very, very nice. I have some quibbles on several issues though.

1. You claim that Oov was the most dominating player in history. Many would agree with you (Personally, I'd put him over Savior, don't know enough about Nada and Boxer to judge), but you put WAY too much on these ELO ratings. With greater number of televised matches available nowadays, ELO ratings puts the older gamers at a great disadvantage. That's why we see all these post-2003 performances dominating the rankings. Do you really believe that Nal_Ra's best days was in the year 2006 for example?

2. The emphasis on the individual league titles to belittle Boxer: Boxer stuck with three individual titles? Come on. Boxer was on a roll before his debut on OGN. OSL back then isn't the ultimate tournament to be in like it is today. Boxer himself said that he didn't bother qualifying for the OSL even if he could because there were other tournaments which took less time with better larger cash prizes. Plus, MSL didn't even exist back then. Hell, KPGA tournaments only came into form in 2002. You can argue that we have to the draw a line with all these "non OGN/MBC tournaments" otherwise we'll go all the way back to the days when Giyom was kicking everyone's ass. Except that Giyom's records during his prime is all but gone. Boxer's records are there to be found. They are JAW DROPPING (can't find a link ATM). Just like Oov's. Except that they're not OSL/MSL matches, but that's not Boxer's fault really.

3. And speaking of individual leagues. Much of Oov's "dazzling" figures are the result of non-OGN/MSL matches. Put the statistics of OSL/MSL alone, and Oov's stats become more mortal. Still leagues better than basically 99% of all the gamers out there, but still, not enough to put him a cut above the likes of Nada. Just because the non-OGN/MSL matches of recent days are televised and regarded as "official matches" doesn't mean that they are of any more meaning than matches of the similar nature played two years ago.

4. TLPD: It's one of the best sources for statistic nuts on the web, but it has its faults. GoRush holds the longest winning streakdefinately "offical matches" with 15. If I remember correctly, Yellow is the one with the longest winning streak if we count unofficial matches as well.
TL+ Member
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
March 07 2008 23:03 GMT
#48
On March 08 2008 06:53 Letmelose wrote:
Very, very nice. I have some quibbles on several issues though.

1. You claim that Oov was the most dominating player in history. Many would agree with you (Personally, I'd put him over Savior, don't know enough about Nada and Boxer to judge), but you put WAY too much on these ELO ratings. With greater number of televised matches available nowadays, ELO ratings puts the older gamers at a great disadvantage. That's why we see all these post-2003 performances dominating the rankings. Do you really believe that Nal_Ra's best days was in the year 2006 for example?

You raise good points about the validity of elo but i don't see how the greater number of games in this day and age can disadvantage the older gamers? Look at Jaedong for example he has achieved an insane elo today with all the extra games going on. Personally i dont see anything wrong with the amount of emphasis i put on elo. There is essentially no other way of comparison bar quoting records like 77-20 or whatever that statistic was. Elo is merely a supporting tool to demonstrate oov's greatness in another light, and i think thats all that the elo section should be taken as.

2. The emphasis on the individual league titles to belittle Boxer: Boxer stuck with three individual titles? Come on. Boxer was on a roll before his debut on OGN. OSL back then isn't the ultimate tournament to be in like it is today. Boxer himself said that he didn't bother qualifying for the OSL even if he could because there were other tournaments which took less time with better larger cash prizes. Plus, MSL didn't even exist back then. Hell, KPGA tournaments only came into form in 2002. You can argue that we have to the draw a line with all these "non OGN/MBC tournaments" otherwise we'll go all the way back to the days when Giyom was kicking everyone's ass. Except that Giyom's records during his prime is all but gone. Boxer's records are there to be found. They are JAW DROPPING (can't find a link ATM). Just like Oov's. Except that they're not OSL/MSL matches, but that's not Boxer's fault really.

That was never meant to belittle boxer by any means. It was merely comparing oov to other gamers that we love and admire. The sheer number of titles oov has is very impressive by any means, and by showing that other gamers never reached the same level of success (except for nada) it once again shows just how much of an impact oov made on the scene. Even if Giyom has way better 1st placings in various non-official tournaments, thats not the point. It is merely trying to present the achievements that oov reached against contemporaries and fan favorites.

3. And speaking of individual leagues. Much of Oov's "dazzling" figures are the result of non-OGN/MSL matches. Put the statistics of OSL/MSL alone, and Oov's stats become more mortal. Still leagues better than basically 99% of all the gamers out there, but still, not enough to put him a cut above the likes of Nada. Just because the non-OGN/MSL matches of recent days are televised and regarded as "official matches" doesn't mean that they are of any more meaning than matches of the similar nature played two years ago.

I disagree. Look at the three MSLs he first competed in - he lost one series (his frist game against NaDa in trigem) and won all others. His total stats are something like 31-8 which is just sick. He went 5-1 in Gillette OSL before he ran into july, he still ended up with an impressive 10-6 over all. That makes his total stats like 41-14, that isn't impressive? The non-OSL/MSL tournaments were like Proleague, Teamleague, iTv, KT-KTF etc Of these only iTv, Proleague and Teamleague affected oov that much, infact iTv damaged oovs record severely (he met july multiple times).

4. TLPD: It's one of the best sources for statistic nuts on the web, but it has its faults. GoRush holds the longest winning streakdefinately "offical matches" with 15. If I remember correctly, Yellow is the one with the longest winning streak if we count unofficial matches as well.

I'll be honest, im not 100% of the streak record i just remember people making a fuss about Jaedong on the verge of beating oovs win streak record. Thankfully Best stopped the win streak and tied with oov. Whether or not Gorush's record stands in the eyes of whoever made that claim i dont know.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
pachi
Profile Joined October 2006
Melbourne5338 Posts
March 07 2008 23:13 GMT
#49
The ELO rating system is inherently flawed when comparing different eras as there is a inflation in ratings over time and the average rating will rise allowing for a easier climb and a higher maximum achievable rating. However, as Plexa is not presenting a mathematical proof on why OOV > *, I'm sure that there is still some merit in iloveoov being able to climb insanely fast amongst his peers at the time.
Moderatorpachi fanclub http://goto.tl/6DI9 。◕‿◕。
zobz
Profile Joined November 2005
Canada2175 Posts
March 07 2008 23:25 GMT
#50
That's the best article i've ever read here at tl. And that video by chkchkboom follows it up beatifully. Thanks for putting so much time into this it was well spent
"That's not gonna be good for business." "That's not gonna be good for anybody."
clazziquai
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
6685 Posts
March 08 2008 02:25 GMT
#51
I love you
#1 Sea.Really Fan / #1 Nesh Fan / Terran Forever~
InfeSteD
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States4658 Posts
March 08 2008 02:47 GMT
#52
I love everything about this thread... I used to be a protoss player until I fell in love with oov...

there isnt a better joy than winning with mass tanks without sieging
w/e
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17743 Posts
March 08 2008 02:57 GMT
#53
Thats more nada
the unsieged tank thing
ils
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
NeverGG *
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom5399 Posts
March 08 2008 07:36 GMT
#54
Awesome article - I'll definitely be going to some future SKT1 events to nab some photos of Oov in his new coaching role. Thanks~
우리 행운의 모양은 여러개지만 행복의 모양은 하나
Raithed
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
China7078 Posts
March 08 2008 09:54 GMT
#55
good read, except the wraith parts... some stuff are inaccurate.
RaiZ
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
2813 Posts
March 08 2008 11:16 GMT
#56
On March 07 2008 05:22 ChkChk.Boom wrote:



Ahh, the man who inspired me to start playing terran when i first started.


Hahahahaha, this is always cracking me up !!!!

I could never forget the laugh i got by watching it. This is still funny as hell ! xD
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. Oscar Wilde
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
March 08 2008 13:11 GMT
#57
On March 08 2008 08:03 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 08 2008 06:53 Letmelose wrote:
Very, very nice. I have some quibbles on several issues though.

1. You claim that Oov was the most dominating player in history. Many would agree with you (Personally, I'd put him over Savior, don't know enough about Nada and Boxer to judge), but you put WAY too much on these ELO ratings. With greater number of televised matches available nowadays, ELO ratings puts the older gamers at a great disadvantage. That's why we see all these post-2003 performances dominating the rankings. Do you really believe that Nal_Ra's best days was in the year 2006 for example?

You raise good points about the validity of elo but i don't see how the greater number of games in this day and age can disadvantage the older gamers? Look at Jaedong for example he has achieved an insane elo today with all the extra games going on. Personally i dont see anything wrong with the amount of emphasis i put on elo. There is essentially no other way of comparison bar quoting records like 77-20 or whatever that statistic was. Elo is merely a supporting tool to demonstrate oov's greatness in another light, and i think thats all that the elo section should be taken as.

Show nested quote +
2. The emphasis on the individual league titles to belittle Boxer: Boxer stuck with three individual titles? Come on. Boxer was on a roll before his debut on OGN. OSL back then isn't the ultimate tournament to be in like it is today. Boxer himself said that he didn't bother qualifying for the OSL even if he could because there were other tournaments which took less time with better larger cash prizes. Plus, MSL didn't even exist back then. Hell, KPGA tournaments only came into form in 2002. You can argue that we have to the draw a line with all these "non OGN/MBC tournaments" otherwise we'll go all the way back to the days when Giyom was kicking everyone's ass. Except that Giyom's records during his prime is all but gone. Boxer's records are there to be found. They are JAW DROPPING (can't find a link ATM). Just like Oov's. Except that they're not OSL/MSL matches, but that's not Boxer's fault really.

That was never meant to belittle boxer by any means. It was merely comparing oov to other gamers that we love and admire. The sheer number of titles oov has is very impressive by any means, and by showing that other gamers never reached the same level of success (except for nada) it once again shows just how much of an impact oov made on the scene. Even if Giyom has way better 1st placings in various non-official tournaments, thats not the point. It is merely trying to present the achievements that oov reached against contemporaries and fan favorites.

Show nested quote +
3. And speaking of individual leagues. Much of Oov's "dazzling" figures are the result of non-OGN/MSL matches. Put the statistics of OSL/MSL alone, and Oov's stats become more mortal. Still leagues better than basically 99% of all the gamers out there, but still, not enough to put him a cut above the likes of Nada. Just because the non-OGN/MSL matches of recent days are televised and regarded as "official matches" doesn't mean that they are of any more meaning than matches of the similar nature played two years ago.

I disagree. Look at the three MSLs he first competed in - he lost one series (his frist game against NaDa in trigem) and won all others. His total stats are something like 31-8 which is just sick. He went 5-1 in Gillette OSL before he ran into july, he still ended up with an impressive 10-6 over all. That makes his total stats like 41-14, that isn't impressive? The non-OSL/MSL tournaments were like Proleague, Teamleague, iTv, KT-KTF etc Of these only iTv, Proleague and Teamleague affected oov that much, infact iTv damaged oovs record severely (he met july multiple times).

Show nested quote +
4. TLPD: It's one of the best sources for statistic nuts on the web, but it has its faults. GoRush holds the longest winning streakdefinately "offical matches" with 15. If I remember correctly, Yellow is the one with the longest winning streak if we count unofficial matches as well.

I'll be honest, im not 100% of the streak record i just remember people making a fuss about Jaedong on the verge of beating oovs win streak record. Thankfully Best stopped the win streak and tied with oov. Whether or not Gorush's record stands in the eyes of whoever made that claim i dont know.


As for ELO ratings, I don't see a lot of problem with it post-2003. The introduction of the 5 day proleague inflated the ratings for the likes of Sea and Hwasin - who are great players in their own right - but with the number of "official" games available nowadays, players who were performing just as good several years ago are being put at a disadvantage.

If we just take the OSL, MSL into consideration, it's obvious why Oov stands out: Boxer and Nada's glory days came before the creation of the MSL and only Savior came close to repeating Oov's success in individual tournaments after all "minor" tournaments all but died out. I'm just saying that there's more to Boxer and Nada than their OSL, MSL/KPGA titles.

Lets suppose (for convinience's sake) that KPGA and the MSL is of the same importance and compare the statistics of Nada's first 4 KPGA/OSL victories (his 4 tournament victory streak) and his first MSL to make his tournament count equal to Oov, and Oov's first five MSL/OSL (he had a hiccup against July during his streak so he needs 5 tournaments to match Nada's 4 tournament wins). The comparison is obviously suited to make Oov look better.

Nada

2nd KPGA 9-3 (won against Yellow)
3rd KPGA 10-2 (won against Reach)
4th KPGA 14-5 (won against Chojja)
Panasonic OSL 11-4 (won against Chojja)
Stout MSL 11-8 (lost in the finals against Nal_Ra)

Overall 55-22

Oov

TGSambo MSL 13-2 (won against Yellow)
CEN Game MSL 9-3 (won against Nada)
Gillette OSL 10-6 (lost in the semifinals against July)
SPRIS MSL 10-3 (won against Kingdom)
Ever OSL 13-7 (won against Boxer)

Overall 55-21

You see there's not a whole lot of difference between the two. I'd do research on Savior too, but exams are coming up.
TL+ Member
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-08 14:09:24
March 08 2008 13:24 GMT
#58
Regardless, this is definitely worth the read if you want to read up more about oovs rise. It's another version of working stuff out and it basically comes to conclusions we already know;
1) Nada is the more consistent and successful of all time
2) iloveoov's rise was the fastest and most forceful
3) Savior got close to oovs force, but didn't actually get there
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
funkie
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Venezuela9377 Posts
March 08 2008 18:13 GMT
#59
wow. f´cking amazing.
CJ Entusman #6! · Strength is the basis of athletic ability. -Rippetoe /* http://j.mp/TL-App <- TL iPhone App 2.0! */
AdamBanks
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada996 Posts
March 08 2008 19:51 GMT
#60
The image is awsome
I wrote a song once.
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