EPTThe Elephant in the Room - Page 167
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OSM.OneManArmy
United States509 Posts
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jellyfish
United States149 Posts
On June 14 2011 19:32 Remf1 wrote: THIS. You can't compare apples and oranges, and if you do you have to acknowledge the differences. My opinion is that this kind of argumentation is the outcry of people that are scared that their "game" will vanish/lose it's importance. The argument "IF top BW would come into SC2 they would dominate" isn't valid. There is no scientific proof for this. IF is ALWAYS IF. As long as it hasn't happened it's NOT a FACT. The writer IS talking about it as a FACT which again it's NOT. EDIT: I also think it's about "BW-People" feeling they are not getting as much recognition? That SC2 will take over is something bad? arghhhhhh so much reading comprehension fail in this thread my brain hurts. sigh. I feel like there's a standing army of overzealous sc2 fanboys who parade the same old worn-out arguments every time anyone even mentions bw... Dude this article isn't even arguing that bw pros would automatically dominate just because "durrr bw is the superior game." It's just saying that the TOP bw pros, as well as a good number of the A-class, practice far more seriously and efficiently than the vast majority of the sc2 pros. Is that so hard to accept? Don't even try and argue this, or try to argue that the sc2 scene is inferior to bw's, if you're not a follower of the bw scene; there's just so much you don't know. The depth of understanding that bw pros show, the depth of gameplay of bw games, the mastery of a complicated game like bw CLEARLY prove the mindboggling diligence and rts talent of the bw pros. In other words, it's not (necessarily) because of bw the fucking game that the top bw pros are going to do very well. It's because their work ethic and deep experience with rts's are vastly superior to the current sc2 pros. This article is only trying to help the sc2 scene by motivating it. If you haven't seen the elephant in the room it's because you're too busy making puppy eyes at sc2 and being needlessly closed-minded to bw. There are plenty of posters of this site who appreciate (if not play) both games; those are the ones who are being progressive and pushing the sc2 scene towards more professionalism and higher levels of play. Hell, I'd even guess that this article and MLG (not only the results, but the entire event and atmosphere, i.e. the potential of ESPORTS) inspired a good number of non-Korean pros to start taking training much more seriously. I don't get why so many sc2 fanboys are jumping all over this article when they don't even really understand it. | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
I think a lot of what people are calling "proof" can simply be put down to people getting better at a game, rather than "BW pros will DOMINATE this scene" which seems to be to be a little premature. Until they do switch en masse (and given their salaries who could blame them for not) I don't really think this article is more than unfounded speculation. Still interesting speculation, though. I also think there's an element of elitism involved - a lot of ex BW players of low to middle tier feeding off the ability of the pros to put new players down. Not sure why you're all doing it, really. | ||
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DarkMatter_
Canada1774 Posts
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JFO
184 Posts
I am a long-time starcraft fan, and HATE TO SAY it, but it is OBVIOUS and I could explain in detail that the GSL SuperTournament Finals were FAKE and it was a SOLD MATCH. NOTHING makes sense. #1 Look at the prepared BM at the begining of the transmission, MMA looks very bored and the overal concept of the BM wording game was to PUT POLT as the rival and the true threat, saying he will get revenge for MKP, he looked very confident and MMA almost unafected, almost as if he knew he would lose already. #2 MMA did TERRIBLE mistakes in all of his games, something that we did not see in any of the matches pre-finals. #3 MMA opted in his FORTH GAME for a VERY RISKY build, why when he was about to loose did he decide to do that? and oh what a coincidence, he lost EXACTLY like Marineking beat him, banshees. (Revenge? coincidence?) Listen people you just need to see the finals, with a cold Marketing approach and see all the vods again, think while you listen and watch every single ad, the games, and you will soon realize this too, it was ALL paid out. I have no clue how did that happen, it seemed really like MMA was playing in polts account, and vice-versa. You could choose to ignore and BAN me, and I know this CAN NOT be good for the community at all and the GSL, and again, I HAVE LOVED the gsl, every single one, but I can not be fooled right now, I am not stating EVERY game was sold or every GSL at all, im just saying the FINALS were CLEARLY sold so Polt would win. Yes, I don't want to believe it as well, but it only takes a clear and intelligent mind to find this for yourself there are so many little details and obvious proof, there is definetly an "elephant in the room" here. I am sorry. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
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TheRPGAddict
United States1403 Posts
On June 18 2011 14:28 OneOther wrote: I have never played Brood War and SC2 has been my first RTS. I have to agree with this sentiment. Brood War seems like a much more impressive game to watch at a high level because it is less conceivable seeing yourself matching the play you are watching, so it seems in a sense more out of this world. Such talent and ability could very well transfer over to SC2 and I believe they would dominate. However, to much less of a degree imo because the mechanics in SC2 take much less precedent and are more possible to hone at a high level than Brood War because of the lesser amount of limitations. I don't care what anyone says. If any CURRENT S-Class players such as Flash, Jaedong, Bisu or even ZerO/Stork/Fantasy switched over to SC2, they would dominate the scene. Their talents are unmatched, but so are their work ethic and the ability to improve. Nobody in the SC2 scene can match them. I have no doubt about this, and hope to see it unfold one day. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10801 Posts
I barely play SC2 anymore (but still like it) and i can "emulate" ZvX BO's that i saw fairly "good", far from perfect but the Idea and the important strongpoints of certain BO's will also be in my game. When i try this in SC/BW... I get overrun at a time when i actually should have the advantage because my control is to bad to actually make it happen :D. (Yeah, now i widdle down these M&M's with my Mutas.... oh... oh... crap :p) | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13291 Posts
Once they learned the game to a certain standard (such as appropriate counters, timings, unit compositions) then their advantages in game sense, multi-tasking, speed, work-ethic and overall game management will quickly take them to the top. Just my opinion, but I agree with the OP that if the cream of the BW players were to switch across to SC2, it would only be a matter of time before we see them fighting for the top prizes in major competitions. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On June 19 2011 04:21 Evangelist wrote: While there are some capable BW pros that are doing really well, there isn't really significant statistical evidence to suggest they have automatic SC2 dominance - given supposedly far less practiced, far inferior players are taking games off players like July, sometimes far easier than they have any right to. I think a lot of what people are calling "proof" can simply be put down to people getting better at a game, rather than "BW pros will DOMINATE this scene" which seems to be to be a little premature. Until they do switch en masse (and given their salaries who could blame them for not) I don't really think this article is more than unfounded speculation. Still interesting speculation, though. I also think there's an element of elitism involved - a lot of ex BW players of low to middle tier feeding off the ability of the pros to put new players down. Not sure why you're all doing it, really. 1. July is way past his prime, and while he was impressive 7 years ago, he was never bonjwa material 2. The people beating July are BW pros 3. The top players are all BW pros 4. All the BW pros to switch over were bad or became bad at BW, and by bad I mean were so bad their team wouldn't let them play an official game. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On June 14 2011 19:32 Remf1 wrote: The argument "IF top BW would come into SC2 they would dominate" isn't valid. There is no scientific proof for this. IF is ALWAYS IF. As long as it hasn't happened it's NOT a FACT. The writer IS talking about it as a FACT which again it's NOT. There is no scientific proof for any of the Starcraft-related debates. In fact, there's no conclusive scientific proof on most key science topics either. Do you really want to say that until something is 100% conclusively proven, it should be disregarded because it's by definition not a "fact" yet? The hard truth is that based on the objective analysis of the knowledge we do have so far, what OP claims is extremely likely to be true. It's likely to the point that challenging his stance just because he called it a "fact" is not a very good argument against statements made in the OP. You're just arguing semantics. | ||
intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
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Serek
United Kingdom459 Posts
While the arguments in the OP are compelling and may indeed come to pass, I think it is still too early to call it. The incentive to switch to SC2 simply isn't there and when it finally arrives it may be too late for the best players in BW to make any impact. The OP is interesting as a thought experiment and provides some testable predictions, but I have my reservations of whether they will happen at all the longer time goes on and current SC2 progamers become better at the game. In the meantime we have mediocre BW players switching and playing with new-found confidence and winning some tournaments, but they are still far from the dominance claimed by the OP. Finally, the tone and responses of some vocal BW fans in this thread reflect badly in the community. This is indeed a heated topic but guys, I would be nice if you kept it civil. | ||
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pandaminion
United States270 Posts
 If I understood this article correctly, what intrigue is basically saying is that right now, because SC2 is so new, we're getting ex-Brood War players whose fundamentals are not as sound, and therefore competition among the people who play SC2 is not as high as it should be. The top tier BW players are top tier because they invest tons of time into practice -- in other words, they have a good work ethic. The "pros" of SC2 can't actually be called pros because they lack that same level of work ethic that the BW pros do, and their BW records prove it. I'm not sure about everything you said though -- you said that practice creates success, but I also feel that success creates practice as well. I doubt that Nestea or MC would be able to perform consistently if they were practicing the same amount as the average player. Fruitdealer is kind of a sad story; he's admitted that he's been spending time drinking and other leisure activities instead of practicing, and his recent results show his lack of practice. Anyway, I'm glad you brought it up, but I don't feel that this is something that the current SC2 pros need to worry about. The BW scene in Korea is still huge, and if they're still pulling in over $30k, they probably feel no need to switch. Still, the fact that Yellow left and has already been offered a spot on Slayers is worrying... | ||
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s4life
Peru1519 Posts
On June 25 2011 03:51 clickrush wrote: I find the argument that the game is too young to be played at BW level is better than "JD and Flash are not in it". It goes both ways, smarter people with faster hands and better work ethic will find 'extra' things to do with their in-game time that other lowly players simply wouldn't be able to even think about... | ||
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s031720
Sweden383 Posts
The skillsetup needed to be a successful BW-player are not identical to the skillsetup to be a successful SC2 player. Its not a GIVEN that a fantastic BW-player will become a fantastic SC2 player allthough its very likely that he will be a very good player at least. For one thing, mechanical skills are less important and those who dominate bw by virtue of their mechanical superiority will not get the same advantage in SC2. I also find it weird talking about work-ethics. When you are in a team you will follow the trainingschedule of that team, so if these BW-players join SC2-teams they will probably NOT train more than their teammates. That just sounds like an empty argument. Talent however goes along way, but some talents are better than others. BW have been around for a long time, slow learners have had the time to get into a dominating position, but if they transfer into SC2 they will obviously NOT dominate since the game, and meta game, is constantly changing. In BW the ability to gind the same build again and again, can give you an advantage, in SC2 however the flexible mind will dominate still for years to come. Basically my conclusion is that its very arrogant to claim with any sort of certainty that this or that will happen. The stars of BW may or may not dominate SC2, when, or if, they change over. Probably some will and others wont. There is really no point of speculating about it, to what end? Basically its just an egotrip for fanboys from either side. But one thing is certain, THERE IS NO ELEPHANT, because that would imply that everyone agrees with the OP but nobody talks bout it. And that is simply not true. So a reprimand for the OP on that one. | ||
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On July 22 2011 05:05 s031720 wrote: SC2 is a diffrent game from BW. It needs to be said again and again until BW-players understand. The skillsetup needed to be a successful BW-player are not identical to the skillsetup to be a successful SC2 player. Its not a GIVEN that a fantastic BW-player will become a fantastic SC2 player allthough its very likely that he will be a very good player at least. For one thing, mechanical skills are less important and those who dominate bw by virtue of their mechanical superiority will not get the same advantage in SC2. I also find it weird talking about work-ethics. When you are in a team you will follow the trainingschedule of that team, so if these BW-players join SC2-teams they will probably NOT train more than their teammates. That just sounds like an empty argument. Talent however goes along way, but some talents are better than others. BW have been around for a long time, slow learners have had the time to get into a dominating position, but if they transfer into SC2 they will obviously NOT dominate since the game, and meta game, is constantly changing. In BW the ability to gind the same build again and again, can give you an advantage, in SC2 however the flexible mind will dominate still for years to come. Basically my conclusion is that its very arrogant to claim with any sort of certainty that this or that will happen. The stars of BW may or may not dominate SC2, when, or if, they change over. Probably some will and others wont. There is really no point of speculating about it, to what end? Basically its just an egotrip for fanboys from either side. But one thing is certain, THERE IS NO ELEPHANT, because that would imply that everyone agrees with the OP but nobody talks bout it. And that is simply not true. So a reprimand for the OP on that one. I think that whether or not your conclusion is right, you're blatantly ignoring a couple of key points. 1.) Multitasking/Mechanics/Precision. All of that transfers over to some extent even if it's not major. A player with a higher capacity for multitasking as well as being much more precise in his/her actions is simply going to out do you. Just look at MC vs P months ago when he would use the same 4 gate BO as his opponent and come out ahead by multiple units after a battle. Maybe the emphasis on mechanics isn't as strong in SC2 but better is still going to be better. 2.) Do you not follow BW? You do realize that the metagame shifts around quite a bit there as well and it's solely because of players and not because Blizzard is trigger happy when it comes to nerfs? Not to mention, the game sense and RTS knowledge of many of these pros is far beyond what most in SC2 possess. There is an equally strong argument that the BW pros are much more flexible. When you look at strategies in SC2, they mostly consist of a handful of flavor of the month builds and compositions that everyone uses and abuses for a few months before replacing it with something else. At any one time in BW, there are many, many ways to play each match up depending on the map and the opponents unit choices. 3.) Team practice is not so much the mandatory what you must do but the minimum of what you must do. If you choose to refine your play on the downtime given to you by your team, that is well within your right to do so. Jaedong practices far more than anyone on Oz and Flash is the same for KT. Their practice and preparation is the stuff of legend. I'm willing to bet that they would not be known for this if they practiced the same amount as everyone else on their teams. So maybe you should stop talking about reprimands and arrogance and get your own arguments down first. | ||
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s031720
Sweden383 Posts
"Basically my conclusion is that its very arrogant to claim with any sort of certainty that this or that will happen. The stars of BW may or may not dominate SC2, when, or if, they change over. Probably some will and others wont. There is really no point of speculating about it, to what end? Basically its just an egotrip for fanboys from either side. " | ||
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Rotodyne
United States2263 Posts
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