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Asha
United Kingdom38149 Posts
On November 20 2011 22:24 Eshra wrote: That's how discussion goes pal. Bouncing from one topic to another. You have no idea as to the concept of a fanclub and you only came to post here to rub in MVP losing to another MC all in *shrug* This silly "discussion" has gone on long enough though so I won't dignify you with further responses === Hopefully MVP can have a great day today =) | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
And then guess what happens when you put up the minimum number of bunkers needed to surivive? ...the protoss simply doesn't attack you, takes a third base, and is ahead anyways...no matter what option the protoss goes for, Terran will be behind regardless, if Protoss is abusing correctly. Yeah...mvp's TvP is not "slumping," everyone's TvP is in shambles right now...hmmmm...wonder why that is... | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
On November 20 2011 22:18 Hypemeup wrote: Whatever, MVP still best player in the world, Shame he did not expect that he needed more then 4 bunkers(lol). lol, pretty much. I will be angry if MC wins it all -.- | ||
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noddy
United Kingdom927 Posts
On November 20 2011 22:27 avilo wrote: everyone's TvP is in shambles right now...hmmmm...wonder why that is... One of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read on TeamLiquid. You must be completely oblivious to matches that don't involve MVP. He'll bounce back and win, it's fine. | ||
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Eshra
France1009 Posts
On November 20 2011 22:27 Asha` wrote: You have no idea as to the concept of a fanclub and you only came to post here to rub in MVP losing to another MC all in *shrug* This silly "discussion" has gone on long enough though so I won't dignify you with further responses === Hopefully MVP can have a great day today =) I'm not there to diss MVP. I think that he's far better than MC atm and I'm not saying MC played a magnificient macro game. I think it's sad to blame balance issue each time the player suffers a loss. That's it. I'm not willing to insult any of you or anything. | ||
Poopi
France12758 Posts
On November 20 2011 22:27 avilo wrote: Builds 5 bunkers and still busted by a protoss forcefield allin? Sounds pretty standard to me. He would need 8 bunkers to hold it off. And then guess what happens when you put up the minimum number of bunkers needed to surivive? ...the protoss simply doesn't attack you, takes a third base, and is ahead anyways... Yeah...mvp's TvP is not "slumping," everyone's TvP is in shambles right now...hmmmm...wonder why that is... In all honesty I think that the 1.4.2 patch was out too hastily. Like, maybe blizzard thought about that patch because of the number of terrans in code S, but when you think at how much time it took to Anypro & TesteR to be out of code S (or even Ensnare, players like that), it was perfectly normal to see the same number in only 1 season. What I mean is that TvP was not terran favored after the 1.4 patch (immortal and so on, reducing the effectiveness of the 1-1-1), but the numbers of terrans didn't change a lot because of the format, that didn't mean that the match-up was still t favored. Anyways Mvp can still win the tournament  , I hope that the winner of him vs MKP (if MKP beat Rain and SjoW) will win the tournament | ||
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JesusOurSaviour
United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
IMO terrans need to abuse some builds which snipe observers? (then abuse ghosts/banshees) Or else they need to wait for HOTS for strong hellions to smash up-zealots. Up-toss is way too strong. | ||
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noddy
United Kingdom927 Posts
On November 20 2011 22:33 JesusOurSaviour wrote: yea to deny T v P is slightly in P's favour is... ____ IMO terrans need to abuse some builds which snipe observers? (then abuse ghosts/banshees) Or else they need to wait for HOTS for strong hellions to smash up-zealots. Up-toss is way too strong. Please finish the sentence because considering TvP win rate in Korea I'd be very interested how anyone can think it's in Protoss' favour. | ||
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
On November 20 2011 22:04 Poopi wrote: It's not that his TvP is suffering lol. ThorZain lost to Bling in UK, GanZi lost to Gatored a 36-35 PvT international TLPD protoss, Mvp who has the best mechanics out of any sc2 player and has won 3 GSL and finished first in a lot of smaller tournaments, lost to NaNiwa (who is a very good and hard working protoss but not as the same level of Mvp no matter what) and MC the guy carried by his all-ins. PuMa & Keen losing to HeRo (he is good but he was code B forever whereas Keen was on another level). Do you really think that these players "didn't practice TvP"? They know they will have a lot of protoss to face, and since even Taeja who won like almost every ESV korean weekly says it's hard to TvP, they probably all know the issue. I don't think that the TvT metagame evolved that much, except the new shiny marauder proxy build the TvT, thus even if they (code S terrans including Mvp) have/had a shitton of TvT they were not only practicing tvt. When you see the best terran in the world losing against inferior players, hopes start going away. Anyways I'm sure that he will find a way to win his future TvP, there are a lot of amazing terrans in MLG right now so they can brainstorm and maybe find a temporary solution Well TvP was basically a free win for a while, so it's understandable Terran didn't progress in the matchup. combine that with recent Protoss buffs and you can see why Terrans might be struggling in the matchup recently. There would probably be something wrong if they weren't.... | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On November 20 2011 22:40 TheSubtleArt wrote: Well TvP was basically a free win for a while, so it's understandable Terran didn't progress in the matchup. combine that with recent Protoss buffs and you can see why Terrans might be struggling in the matchup recently. There would probably be something wrong if they weren't.... The recent protoss buffs had no impact on how MVP lost today though. All-ins can knockout even the strongest players, much like we saw today. | ||
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JesusOurSaviour
United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On November 20 2011 22:37 noddy wrote: Last 4 weeks. I guess I need to make myself clearer for the argumentative TL netizens. Current meta of T v P. Please finish the sentence because considering TvP win rate in Korea I'd be very interested how anyone can think it's in Protoss' favour. As the maps have gotten bigger and as several terran nerfs were implemented, T's smashing P's by using bit-by-bit tactics have dropped. That is good and I was so happy when bit-by-bit's were stopped. However, Protoss have "discovered", one could argue, that Up-toss is the go-to build to stomp terrans. Terrans currently are struggling very hard to deal with Up-toss in general. Whether it be gauging the tech-switch timings, how to kill upgraded zealots + archons, or anything else - Terrans are struggling, Is this due to Terrans being so comfortable in the old T v P (basically a free win), or is it because they really never refined their skills / develop newer builds? Not sure. No terran has discovered a definitive way of killing mass archon/zealot/storm + colossus tech switches. So the T v P meta is currently P favoured. I am not saying the game is broken. I'm saying Terrans are struggling against P due to the reasons stated above. But they will find a solution (or else P's will steal their prize money), as $$$ and bragging rights will surely spur Korean terrans to improve their T v P. Just as P's have increased their skill level in forcefields, blink micro (Tassadar v Select, LiquidHero in general, Huk) and drop defence, Terrans will likewise train harder in the very near future to improve T v P. EDIT: lol do you follow GSL? Time to check TLPD for winrates in GSL code S http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/leagues/2036_2011_GSL_Code_S_Nov. Toss is 70% in P v T. Sample size is tiny, but stats are stats. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On November 20 2011 22:27 avilo wrote: Builds 5 bunkers and still busted by a protoss forcefield allin? Sounds pretty standard to me. He would need 8 bunkers to hold it off. And then guess what happens when you put up the minimum number of bunkers needed to surivive? ...the protoss simply doesn't attack you, takes a third base, and is ahead anyways...no matter what option the protoss goes for, Terran will be behind regardless, if Protoss is abusing correctly. Yeah...mvp's TvP is not "slumping," everyone's TvP is in shambles right now...hmmmm...wonder why that is... This is just sooooooooooooooooooooooo wrong! Did you ever consider, that building your 3rd (!!!!!!!!!) orbital after the 1st Rax just extremely slows down a terrans production and tech???? That's fucking 550 minerals! Or additional 11 MARINES. I'll leave it to you, to calculate the DPS those would have added to MVP's army. If he didnt play ultra greedy like that, he could have had medivacs or those extra marines, by the time MC's 6gt hit his front. And guess what, MC would have been dead! This isnt a question of balance. This has all to do with greedy play being perfectly punished by a timing. And regarding your "wonder why that is..." comment. NONE of the balance changes had any effect in that game. Not immortal range, not upgrade cost, and certainly not EMP radius. MVP is a great player, but that was just greedy, and deserved to be crushed. | ||
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JesusOurSaviour
United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On November 20 2011 23:21 IVN wrote: And regarding your "wonder why that is..." comment. NONE of the balance changes had any effect in that game. Not immortal range, not upgrade cost, and certainly not EMP radius. MVP is a great player, but that was just greedy, and deserved to be crushed. Yep Mvp tends to get greedy a lot. But his greediness is normally not punishable, except by extreme timings. | ||
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Poopi
France12758 Posts
On November 20 2011 23:21 IVN wrote: This is just sooooooooooooooooooooooo wrong! Did you ever consider, that building your 3rd (!!!!!!!!!) orbital after the 1st Rax just extremely slows down a terrans production and tech???? That's fucking 550 minerals! Or additional 11 MARINES. I'll leave it to you, to calculate the DPS those would have added to MVP's army. If he didnt play ultra greedy like that, he could have had medivacs or those extra marines, by the time MC's 6gt hit his front. And guess what, MC would have been dead! This isnt a question of balance. This has all to do with greedy play being perfectly punished by a timing. And regarding your "wonder why that is..." comment. NONE of the balance changes had any effect in that game. Not immortal range, not upgrade cost, and certainly not EMP radius. MVP is a great player, but that was just greedy, and deserved to be crushed. It was tal'darim altar. Because of the long distance / warpgate mechanics, this map is a pain in the ass for TvP because if you don't play greedy you will almost certainly lose, and if you play greedy you can be punished quite easily by heavy warpgate pushes. Mvp wasn't greedy for the sake of being greedy, he did it because he thought this was his only chance to win the game. Almost every terran vetoes tal'darim in TvP, but I think there is no veto in MLG. | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
On November 20 2011 23:26 Poopi wrote: It was tal'darim altar. Because of the long distance / warpgate mechanics, this map is a pain in the ass for TvP because if you don't play greedy you will almost certainly lose, and if you play greedy you can be punished quite easily by heavy warpgate pushes. Mvp wasn't greedy for the sake of being greedy, he did it because he thought this was his only chance to win the game. Almost every terran vetoes tal'darim in TvP, but I think there is no veto in MLG. MC did a 6 gate with no tech, just so he could kill MVP who went 3CC (producing scv from the 3) + heavy Upgrades + straight Mediavecs. MC knew that the only way he could kill that heavy bunker defense was by zooning the army back and slowlly killing then, that is why he went with no zealots in the attack, only ranged units. MC took advantage of MVP's build and his bunker defense by going with an agressive build using a stalker sentry army. MVP is the best player in the world right now... but his TvP is not that good. I think that is what happen when you almost don't need to pratice TvP in GSL | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On November 20 2011 23:26 Poopi wrote: It was tal'darim altar. Because of the long distance / warpgate mechanics, this map is a pain in the ass for TvP because if you don't play greedy you will almost certainly lose, and if you play greedy you can be punished quite easily by heavy warpgate pushes. Mvp wasn't greedy for the sake of being greedy, he did it because he thought this was his only chance to win the game. Almost every terran vetoes tal'darim in TvP, but I think there is no veto in MLG. Last statistics I saw, showed Tal'darim being slightly terran favoured. TvP something like 54%. | ||
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Asha
United Kingdom38149 Posts
On November 20 2011 23:45 rpgalon wrote:MC took advantage of MVP's build and his bunker defense by going with an agressive build using a stalker sentry army. MC had no idea what MVP's build was outside of opening gasless expo | ||
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Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
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JimPanzer
Germany339 Posts
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