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On October 11 2012 07:05 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 06:07 KoRStarvid wrote:On October 11 2012 05:43 Fizzy wrote:On October 11 2012 05:24 ChApFoU wrote:
I second that, and unfortunately it's like that in many other sports and areas. Douchebaggery and being cool/cute is more valued than raw skill but who cares : Deep down inside everybody knows who's the boss and who are the chumps trying to get attention.
MVP doesn't need to be loved or favored. He just wins. There has always been players in all sports that have been hands down the best player, no attitude no gimmicks, just pure brilliant skill and beatufil playstyle and all the others who practise the sport would look up to it and admire that person. A few examples are Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretzky, they are both still considered perhaps the best players of all time. Im pretty sure if someone made some kind of research on all the TL fanclubs, you would notice there being a slightly higher skill-level in Mvps fanclub than lets say in IdrAs. Simply because idra mostly just attract the drama loving american fanboys who sit in the NA silver league once a day and watches his stream for the remainder of his sparetime. Whilst the Mvp fanboys are spread of evenly all over the globe while playing a slightly higher skill-level and league and is looking up to his brilliant play. Also i would like to get a jump in on the whole bonjwa discussion, i agree with both parties on some, i have to agree that Mvp doesnt have that aura that everyone keep talking about, but that is probably because there are so many more events and tournaments going on. If you look at only GSL, mvp has been ranking first in the ELO for the last 2 years, having an insanely high win % and as long as he makes it past the ro16 he has 80%+ winrate. And if people cant agree to call him the first SC2 bonjwa, he will probably get an honorary bonjwa position after he retires, just like BoxeR did, because as most of you oldschool BW people might remember, BoxeR was never considered a bonjwa during his time, and even more... when compared to the other bonjwas or Jaedong.. he isnt even close to their level of achievement. But he still pioneered his time and was always around. Just like Mvp is atm. If you dont want to call him the first bonjwa of SC2 (not yet anyhow, since he still has alot to show u guys before he retires im sure ;> ), you should atleast be able to call him the BoxeR of SC2, since he is pretty much exactly the same thing for SC2 as boxer were for BW :p Hmm, I can't agree with what you are saying here. While Mvp is arguably the best player to have played Starcraft 2, Boxer pretty much invented the wheel. No disrespect to Mvp, but what Boxer did for RTS games can most probably only be done once. So, Boxer is really the Boxer of Starcraft 2, since he was the Boxer of BW, if that makes any sense  And as for the bonjwa thing, I think it's safe to say that the kind of bonjwas we had for BW won't exist for Starcraft 2 simply because they are two different games, although undoubtedly very similar in many regards. The thing with the dominant players in BW that earned the title of Bonjwa was that everyone pretty much agreed that they were Bonjwa. That hasn't happened for Starcraft 2. Will it happen? That's up for speculation. Anywhoooo... Mvp HWAITING! EDIT: Just to clarify: I don't think that the criteria for being a Bonjwa in BW directly translates to Starcraft 2, but I do think that there's a possibility we can have bonjwas for Starcraft 2, but of a different kind. EDIT 2: Oh, about the ELO thing. Mvp has topped the end year result of the GSL point ranking 2011 and is topping the 2012 result so far, which is a Great accomplishment, but it is NOT the same as being constantly number 1 in ELO. I don't think any single players has topped the korean ELO for even a month continuously (probably because of rapidly shifting meta-game). Just to get things straight I agree with everything in your post up to the last edit; TaeJa ranked top in ELO after winning very small tournaments with clean sweep records, his ELO has been fairly consistent for the last 2-3 months. BUT, as Khaldor and many others have stated, ELO is a terrible metric for skill/performance in Sc2.
Well, ok, the point still being number one in GSL points =/= number one in ELO. And ELO has never been a measurement of skill, it's just a game ranking system.
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You can't pull out examples like that. There are many, many Rain fans who said "Rain will crush this noob, Mvp has no chance in hell." There are many, many Mvp fans who were very worried about Mvp's chances, saying "Mvp might actually lose this... Rain looks really strong."
Yes, there's a difference. Saying a player will win is not the same as saying other players are bad. There are people who do that... they don't say "Player X will lose." They say "Player X is terrible, doesn't belong in Code S."
For the most part, Mvp fans don't do that. I haven't really seen Mvp fans go around and say "Rain is terrible"... That's why I think Mvp's fans are supportive and nice.
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On October 11 2012 07:09 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 07:01 InoyouS2 wrote:On October 11 2012 06:51 CosmicSpiral wrote:On October 11 2012 06:46 InoyouS2 wrote:On October 11 2012 06:05 CosmicSpiral wrote:On October 11 2012 05:43 Fizzy wrote:On October 11 2012 05:24 ChApFoU wrote:
I second that, and unfortunately it's like that in many other sports and areas. Douchebaggery and being cool/cute is more valued than raw skill but who cares : Deep down inside everybody knows who's the boss and who are the chumps trying to get attention.
MVP doesn't need to be loved or favored. He just wins. There has always been players in all sports that have been hands down the best player, no attitude no gimmicks, just pure brilliant skill and beatufil playstyle and all the others who practise the sport would look up to it and admire that person. A few examples are Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretzky, they are both still considered perhaps the best players of all time. Im pretty sure if someone made some kind of research on all the TL fanclubs, you would notice there being a slightly higher skill-level in Mvps fanclub than lets say in IdrAs. Simply because idra mostly just attract the drama loving american fanboys who sit in the NA silver league once a day and watches his stream for the remainder of his sparetime. Whilst the Mvp fanboys are spread of evenly all over the globe while playing a slightly higher skill-level and league and is looking up to his brilliant play. Also i would like to get a jump in on the whole bonjwa discussion, i agree with both parties on some, i have to agree that Mvp doesnt have that aura that everyone keep talking about, but that is probably because there are so many more events and tournaments going on. If you look at only GSL, mvp has been ranking first in the ELO for the last 2 years, having an insanely high win % and as long as he makes it past the ro16 he has 80%+ winrate. And if people cant agree to call him the first SC2 bonjwa, he will probably get an honorary bonjwa position after he retires, just like BoxeR did, because as most of you oldschool BW people might remember, BoxeR was never considered a bonjwa during his time, and even more... when compared to the other bonjwas or Jaedong.. he isnt even close to their level of achievement. But he still pioneered his time and was always around. Just like Mvp is atm. If you dont want to call him the first bonjwa of SC2 (not yet anyhow, since he still has alot to show u guys before he retires im sure ;> ), you should atleast be able to call him the BoxeR of SC2, since he is pretty much exactly the same thing for SC2 as boxer were for BW :p I've found that Mvp fans can be among the most insufferable and foolish people in the forums. They're extremely belligerent when it comes to anyone that threatens their mystique of their idol (just check the semifinals recap for proof) and they can't exactly tell you why Mvp is so good besides general descriptions that are parroted about every other pro gamer. The term "bonjwa" did not exist when Boxer was relevant as a champion. It came around as a nickname for July, and started being used in its current vernacular definition when Savior was winning. It was retrofitted to apply to Boxer, iloveoov, and Nada's earlier accomplishments. There is no way to "prove" whether Mvp is a bonjwa or not. There never has been, and never will be, a statistical breaking point that separates a bonjwa from a dominant player. It's just a honorary title bestowed by the community. I'd argue against that to be honest, on the basis that I rarely ever see flaming in LRs when Mvp is playing against the other player, I feel that Mvp fans are mostly just fans of Mvp not of his performance, they don't necessarily care how good who is up against him. I think what you might have seen in the semi-final LR was hype train hating (I indeed also added slightly to that), because the amount of hype following a player when he's on a winning streak (e.g: DRG --> MKP --> Squirtle --> TaeJa --> Rain) can get a little obnoxious. I am a fan of many players, but Mvp just has an aura about him when he wins, it's authentic, I don't seem to feel that from any other player. Also it's an LR thread, so expect to act on impulse when replying. They're not fans of Mvp. They're fans of the concept of "Mvp", this supposedly unbeatable and indefatigable badass that embodies everything that is good and pure about SC2. If you were not familiar with who Mvp was you'd think they were religious fanatics. I see the same thing with a lot of Nestea fans as well. And that's a shame. Mvp is one of the nicest and humblest pro gamers out there. I was talking about the recap thread, not the LR thread. Yeah, I'm doubtful those are actual fans, a lot of them may just be boarding another hype train, which is annoying because if Mvp wins or loses, they'll just jump on the next hot player that comes along. Stop being such a hipster. People like and support winners. However mvp fans are often not that shallow. They stand behind him through his "slumps" as well his peaks. Someone else said that we don't know why mvp is so good we are in love with his mystique. That is actually true. Part of the reason why I like mvp so much is because he has an ineffable quality that lets him win games. There isn't a single aspect of mvp's play that is incredible, it is all aspects of his play that are incredible, even mental toughness, foresight, game sense. Things that can't be explained by pointing to a single event or single decision. That is why mvp is better than anyone else despite his injuries.
It's not about liking or supporting winners, it's about completely forgetting them after they don't perform for a week or two (in Mvp's case 2-4 months) and they just jump on the nearest, well-performing player and call themselves a fan of that guy. In some cases it's good, because most of the time the hype is very positive, it's complementing the player's skill, but when the fanboys start hating on other players is when it gets ugly. For proof of that look at the first 10 pages of the LR thread.
Also I never said they weren't allowed to become Mvp fans, but they just give Mvp fans a bad name when they hype everything up to ridiculous levels, and hype trains crash and burn regularly.
As for liking Mvp just for his 'skill' is actually very untrue in my case, I don't think he is consistently as mechanically sound as a lot of players in Sc2, and I actually agree with the 'Top 60' quote from his interview, but he thinks outside the box, in fact he plays outside the box... actually he just plays a different game entirely.
The 2011 Mvp was the 'high and mighty' godly player that was just better than everyone else, he isn't playing better than people now, he's just beating them at a different game. Which is why I love him, and he'll probably be the last player I actually care about watching.
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On October 11 2012 07:17 Entirety wrote:
You can't pull out examples like that. There are many, many Rain fans who said "Rain will crush this noob, Mvp has no chance in hell." There are many, many Mvp fans who were very worried about Mvp's chances, saying "Mvp might actually lose this... Rain looks really strong."
Yes, there's a difference. Saying a player will win is not the same as saying other players are bad. There are people who do that... they don't say "Player X will lose." They say "Player X is terrible, doesn't belong in Code S."
For the most part, Mvp fans don't do that. I haven't really seen Mvp fans go around and say "Rain is terrible"... That's why I think Mvp's fans are supportive and nice.
We're inspired by Mvp, the progamer who looks out for others 
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On October 11 2012 07:00 Entirety wrote:
On Mvp as a bonjwa
Honestly, let's give him the title already. Here's my explanation why:
Wings of Liberty is coming to an end soon. By and far, only one player has shown this much success and dominance. No one has even come close to Mvp's level of accomplishments (yes, MC is good, but 6 GSL finals is ridiculous). No one will manage to come close to Mvp's level by the time Wings of Liberty ends (unless MC wins OSL, GSL Season 5, Blizzard Cup, and every tournament in between).
In short, he's a legend in Wings of Liberty. It's not really about whether he has shown complete dominance all of the time, or whether or not he fulfills the requirement, or anything else... The fact is that he has shown himself to be, by far, the greatest player in Wings of Liberty. He has become a legend. Whether we call it a 'bonjwa' or not, the sentiment will be the same. Yes, SC2 bonjwas will definitely be different from BW bonjwas. Whatever a SC2 bonjwa may be... Mvp's definitely one of them.
Why the need to call him bonjwa NOW? He will probably go down in history as the greatest WoL-player, isn't that enough? And if it's established later what a SC2-bonjwa appears like, and Mvp fits that criteria, can't we just wait to give him that title at that point instead of rushing it? Throwing around the title of Bonjwa like it's nothing just seems unnecessary. Have some patience and let Bonjwa actually MEAN something.
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On October 11 2012 07:21 aRyuujin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 07:17 Entirety wrote:
You can't pull out examples like that. There are many, many Rain fans who said "Rain will crush this noob, Mvp has no chance in hell." There are many, many Mvp fans who were very worried about Mvp's chances, saying "Mvp might actually lose this... Rain looks really strong."
Yes, there's a difference. Saying a player will win is not the same as saying other players are bad. There are people who do that... they don't say "Player X will lose." They say "Player X is terrible, doesn't belong in Code S."
For the most part, Mvp fans don't do that. I haven't really seen Mvp fans go around and say "Rain is terrible"... That's why I think Mvp's fans are supportive and nice. We're inspired by Mvp, the progamer who looks out for others
It's true, Mvp told me not to catch a cold in his ro8 winners interview, truly a kind king.
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United States15275 Posts
On October 11 2012 07:17 Entirety wrote:
You can't pull out examples like that. There are many, many Rain fans who said "Rain will crush this noob, Mvp has no chance in hell." There are many, many Mvp fans who were very worried about Mvp's chances, saying "Mvp might actually lose this... Rain looks really strong."
Yes, there's a difference. Saying a player will win is not the same as saying other players are bad. There are people who do that... they don't say "Player X will lose." They say "Player X is terrible, doesn't belong in Code S."
For the most part, Mvp fans don't do that. I haven't really seen Mvp fans go around and say "Rain is terrible"... That's why I think Mvp's fans are supportive and nice.
Well, they are just as bad. Everybody has bad fans.
When you say "X will crush Y", you are implying Y is much worse than X. You cannot crush an opponent unless you assume he will play at a much lower level or that his playstyle puts him at an inherent disadvantage.
I see a lot of Mvp fans who are supportive and nice but since he is so famous, he also has a lot of bad seeds and they can be extremely vocal at times.
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On October 11 2012 07:18 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 07:09 redviper wrote:On October 11 2012 07:01 InoyouS2 wrote:On October 11 2012 06:51 CosmicSpiral wrote:On October 11 2012 06:46 InoyouS2 wrote:On October 11 2012 06:05 CosmicSpiral wrote:On October 11 2012 05:43 Fizzy wrote:On October 11 2012 05:24 ChApFoU wrote:
I second that, and unfortunately it's like that in many other sports and areas. Douchebaggery and being cool/cute is more valued than raw skill but who cares : Deep down inside everybody knows who's the boss and who are the chumps trying to get attention.
MVP doesn't need to be loved or favored. He just wins. There has always been players in all sports that have been hands down the best player, no attitude no gimmicks, just pure brilliant skill and beatufil playstyle and all the others who practise the sport would look up to it and admire that person. A few examples are Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretzky, they are both still considered perhaps the best players of all time. Im pretty sure if someone made some kind of research on all the TL fanclubs, you would notice there being a slightly higher skill-level in Mvps fanclub than lets say in IdrAs. Simply because idra mostly just attract the drama loving american fanboys who sit in the NA silver league once a day and watches his stream for the remainder of his sparetime. Whilst the Mvp fanboys are spread of evenly all over the globe while playing a slightly higher skill-level and league and is looking up to his brilliant play. Also i would like to get a jump in on the whole bonjwa discussion, i agree with both parties on some, i have to agree that Mvp doesnt have that aura that everyone keep talking about, but that is probably because there are so many more events and tournaments going on. If you look at only GSL, mvp has been ranking first in the ELO for the last 2 years, having an insanely high win % and as long as he makes it past the ro16 he has 80%+ winrate. And if people cant agree to call him the first SC2 bonjwa, he will probably get an honorary bonjwa position after he retires, just like BoxeR did, because as most of you oldschool BW people might remember, BoxeR was never considered a bonjwa during his time, and even more... when compared to the other bonjwas or Jaedong.. he isnt even close to their level of achievement. But he still pioneered his time and was always around. Just like Mvp is atm. If you dont want to call him the first bonjwa of SC2 (not yet anyhow, since he still has alot to show u guys before he retires im sure ;> ), you should atleast be able to call him the BoxeR of SC2, since he is pretty much exactly the same thing for SC2 as boxer were for BW :p I've found that Mvp fans can be among the most insufferable and foolish people in the forums. They're extremely belligerent when it comes to anyone that threatens their mystique of their idol (just check the semifinals recap for proof) and they can't exactly tell you why Mvp is so good besides general descriptions that are parroted about every other pro gamer. The term "bonjwa" did not exist when Boxer was relevant as a champion. It came around as a nickname for July, and started being used in its current vernacular definition when Savior was winning. It was retrofitted to apply to Boxer, iloveoov, and Nada's earlier accomplishments. There is no way to "prove" whether Mvp is a bonjwa or not. There never has been, and never will be, a statistical breaking point that separates a bonjwa from a dominant player. It's just a honorary title bestowed by the community. I'd argue against that to be honest, on the basis that I rarely ever see flaming in LRs when Mvp is playing against the other player, I feel that Mvp fans are mostly just fans of Mvp not of his performance, they don't necessarily care how good who is up against him. I think what you might have seen in the semi-final LR was hype train hating (I indeed also added slightly to that), because the amount of hype following a player when he's on a winning streak (e.g: DRG --> MKP --> Squirtle --> TaeJa --> Rain) can get a little obnoxious. I am a fan of many players, but Mvp just has an aura about him when he wins, it's authentic, I don't seem to feel that from any other player. Also it's an LR thread, so expect to act on impulse when replying. They're not fans of Mvp. They're fans of the concept of "Mvp", this supposedly unbeatable and indefatigable badass that embodies everything that is good and pure about SC2. If you were not familiar with who Mvp was you'd think they were religious fanatics. I see the same thing with a lot of Nestea fans as well. And that's a shame. Mvp is one of the nicest and humblest pro gamers out there. I was talking about the recap thread, not the LR thread. Yeah, I'm doubtful those are actual fans, a lot of them may just be boarding another hype train, which is annoying because if Mvp wins or loses, they'll just jump on the next hot player that comes along. Stop being such a hipster. People like and support winners. However mvp fans are often not that shallow. They stand behind him through his "slumps" as well his peaks. Someone else said that we don't know why mvp is so good we are in love with his mystique. That is actually true. Part of the reason why I like mvp so much is because he has an ineffable quality that lets him win games. There isn't a single aspect of mvp's play that is incredible, it is all aspects of his play that are incredible, even mental toughness, foresight, game sense. Things that can't be explained by pointing to a single event or single decision. That is why mvp is better than anyone else despite his injuries. It's not about liking or supporting winners, it's about completely forgetting them after they don't perform for a week or two (in Mvp's case 2-4 months) and they just jump on the nearest, well-performing player and call themselves a fan of that guy. In some cases it's good, because most of the time the hype is very positive, it's complementing the player's skill, but when the fanboys start hating on other players is when it gets ugly. For proof of that look at the first 10 pages of the LR thread. Also I never said they weren't allowed to become Mvp fans, but they just give Mvp fans a bad name when they hype everything up to ridiculous levels, and hype trains crash and burn regularly. As for liking Mvp just for his 'skill' is actually very untrue in my case, I don't think he is consistently as mechanically sound as a lot of players in Sc2, and I actually agree with the 'Top 60' quote from his interview, but he thinks outside the box, in fact he plays outside the box... actually he just plays a different game entirely. The 2011 Mvp was the 'high and mighty' godly player that was just better than everyone else, he isn't playing better than people now, he's just beating them at a different game. Which is why I love him, and he'll probably be the last player I actually care about watching.
I just can't understand this argument. He is playing better than everyone else because he is beating everyone else. Perhaps he is not doing so with out of this world macro or micro, but the simple fact that he changes the game being played is testament to how far ahead he is. The simple fact that he forces his opponents to play on his turf, against his style and react instead of taking the lead makes him a great player in my opinion.
What do you care if mvp fans get a bad name? Does that somehow impinge on your self respect? Shit, in the last few pages rycecake has insulted me a number of times and I have insulted him a few myself. Does that somehow make me unworthy of being an mvp fan?
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On October 11 2012 07:21 KoRStarvid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 07:00 Entirety wrote:
On Mvp as a bonjwa
Honestly, let's give him the title already. Here's my explanation why:
Wings of Liberty is coming to an end soon. By and far, only one player has shown this much success and dominance. No one has even come close to Mvp's level of accomplishments (yes, MC is good, but 6 GSL finals is ridiculous). No one will manage to come close to Mvp's level by the time Wings of Liberty ends (unless MC wins OSL, GSL Season 5, Blizzard Cup, and every tournament in between).
In short, he's a legend in Wings of Liberty. It's not really about whether he has shown complete dominance all of the time, or whether or not he fulfills the requirement, or anything else... The fact is that he has shown himself to be, by far, the greatest player in Wings of Liberty. He has become a legend. Whether we call it a 'bonjwa' or not, the sentiment will be the same. Yes, SC2 bonjwas will definitely be different from BW bonjwas. Whatever a SC2 bonjwa may be... Mvp's definitely one of them.
Why the need to call him bonjwa NOW? He will probably go down in history as the greatest WoL-player, isn't that enough? And if it's established later what a SC2-bonjwa appears like, and Mvp fits that criteria, can't we just wait to give him that title at that point instead of rushing it? Throwing around the title of Bonjwa like it's nothing just seems unnecessary. Have some patience and let Bonjwa actually MEAN something.
I think it already means something.
Anyway, can't we think of happier things? Now is not the time to bash other Mvp fans, bash people who want their favorite player to be considered a bonjwa, bash people who support Mvp when he's on a hype train... does it all matter?
Today, I had a terrible day. One of the worst days of my life.
I ran home, saw the results from the LR thread, and my day turned around just like that. Now, I'm in an extremely happy mood... I am glad to say that Mvp's triumph helped me overcome my struggles too. He is a true inspiration.
Let's celebrate his victory, please don't taint it.
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On October 11 2012 07:24 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 07:18 InoyouS2 wrote:On October 11 2012 07:09 redviper wrote:On October 11 2012 07:01 InoyouS2 wrote:On October 11 2012 06:51 CosmicSpiral wrote:On October 11 2012 06:46 InoyouS2 wrote:On October 11 2012 06:05 CosmicSpiral wrote:On October 11 2012 05:43 Fizzy wrote:On October 11 2012 05:24 ChApFoU wrote:
I second that, and unfortunately it's like that in many other sports and areas. Douchebaggery and being cool/cute is more valued than raw skill but who cares : Deep down inside everybody knows who's the boss and who are the chumps trying to get attention.
MVP doesn't need to be loved or favored. He just wins. There has always been players in all sports that have been hands down the best player, no attitude no gimmicks, just pure brilliant skill and beatufil playstyle and all the others who practise the sport would look up to it and admire that person. A few examples are Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretzky, they are both still considered perhaps the best players of all time. Im pretty sure if someone made some kind of research on all the TL fanclubs, you would notice there being a slightly higher skill-level in Mvps fanclub than lets say in IdrAs. Simply because idra mostly just attract the drama loving american fanboys who sit in the NA silver league once a day and watches his stream for the remainder of his sparetime. Whilst the Mvp fanboys are spread of evenly all over the globe while playing a slightly higher skill-level and league and is looking up to his brilliant play. Also i would like to get a jump in on the whole bonjwa discussion, i agree with both parties on some, i have to agree that Mvp doesnt have that aura that everyone keep talking about, but that is probably because there are so many more events and tournaments going on. If you look at only GSL, mvp has been ranking first in the ELO for the last 2 years, having an insanely high win % and as long as he makes it past the ro16 he has 80%+ winrate. And if people cant agree to call him the first SC2 bonjwa, he will probably get an honorary bonjwa position after he retires, just like BoxeR did, because as most of you oldschool BW people might remember, BoxeR was never considered a bonjwa during his time, and even more... when compared to the other bonjwas or Jaedong.. he isnt even close to their level of achievement. But he still pioneered his time and was always around. Just like Mvp is atm. If you dont want to call him the first bonjwa of SC2 (not yet anyhow, since he still has alot to show u guys before he retires im sure ;> ), you should atleast be able to call him the BoxeR of SC2, since he is pretty much exactly the same thing for SC2 as boxer were for BW :p I've found that Mvp fans can be among the most insufferable and foolish people in the forums. They're extremely belligerent when it comes to anyone that threatens their mystique of their idol (just check the semifinals recap for proof) and they can't exactly tell you why Mvp is so good besides general descriptions that are parroted about every other pro gamer. The term "bonjwa" did not exist when Boxer was relevant as a champion. It came around as a nickname for July, and started being used in its current vernacular definition when Savior was winning. It was retrofitted to apply to Boxer, iloveoov, and Nada's earlier accomplishments. There is no way to "prove" whether Mvp is a bonjwa or not. There never has been, and never will be, a statistical breaking point that separates a bonjwa from a dominant player. It's just a honorary title bestowed by the community. I'd argue against that to be honest, on the basis that I rarely ever see flaming in LRs when Mvp is playing against the other player, I feel that Mvp fans are mostly just fans of Mvp not of his performance, they don't necessarily care how good who is up against him. I think what you might have seen in the semi-final LR was hype train hating (I indeed also added slightly to that), because the amount of hype following a player when he's on a winning streak (e.g: DRG --> MKP --> Squirtle --> TaeJa --> Rain) can get a little obnoxious. I am a fan of many players, but Mvp just has an aura about him when he wins, it's authentic, I don't seem to feel that from any other player. Also it's an LR thread, so expect to act on impulse when replying. They're not fans of Mvp. They're fans of the concept of "Mvp", this supposedly unbeatable and indefatigable badass that embodies everything that is good and pure about SC2. If you were not familiar with who Mvp was you'd think they were religious fanatics. I see the same thing with a lot of Nestea fans as well. And that's a shame. Mvp is one of the nicest and humblest pro gamers out there. I was talking about the recap thread, not the LR thread. Yeah, I'm doubtful those are actual fans, a lot of them may just be boarding another hype train, which is annoying because if Mvp wins or loses, they'll just jump on the next hot player that comes along. Stop being such a hipster. People like and support winners. However mvp fans are often not that shallow. They stand behind him through his "slumps" as well his peaks. Someone else said that we don't know why mvp is so good we are in love with his mystique. That is actually true. Part of the reason why I like mvp so much is because he has an ineffable quality that lets him win games. There isn't a single aspect of mvp's play that is incredible, it is all aspects of his play that are incredible, even mental toughness, foresight, game sense. Things that can't be explained by pointing to a single event or single decision. That is why mvp is better than anyone else despite his injuries. It's not about liking or supporting winners, it's about completely forgetting them after they don't perform for a week or two (in Mvp's case 2-4 months) and they just jump on the nearest, well-performing player and call themselves a fan of that guy. In some cases it's good, because most of the time the hype is very positive, it's complementing the player's skill, but when the fanboys start hating on other players is when it gets ugly. For proof of that look at the first 10 pages of the LR thread. Also I never said they weren't allowed to become Mvp fans, but they just give Mvp fans a bad name when they hype everything up to ridiculous levels, and hype trains crash and burn regularly. As for liking Mvp just for his 'skill' is actually very untrue in my case, I don't think he is consistently as mechanically sound as a lot of players in Sc2, and I actually agree with the 'Top 60' quote from his interview, but he thinks outside the box, in fact he plays outside the box... actually he just plays a different game entirely. The 2011 Mvp was the 'high and mighty' godly player that was just better than everyone else, he isn't playing better than people now, he's just beating them at a different game. Which is why I love him, and he'll probably be the last player I actually care about watching. I just can't understand this argument. He is playing better than everyone else because he is beating everyone else. Perhaps he is not doing so with out of this world macro or micro, but the simple fact that he changes the game being played is testament to how far ahead he is. The simple fact that he forces his opponents to play on his turf, against his style and react instead of taking the lead makes him a great player in my opinion. What do you care if mvp fans get a bad name? Does that somehow impinge on your self respect? Shit, in the last few pages rycecake has insulted me a number of times and I have insulted him a few myself. Does that somehow make me unworthy of being an mvp fan?
No, you two are monkeys throwing shit at each other in a zoo enclosure.
I am being honest about Mvp's performance, it isn't as clean as it once was (and I'd argue things like pulling SCVs are downright dirty), but he does anything to win, and that adds the WOW factor that Mvp fans love. Have a look at some of his recent games and look at how risky some of the builds are, then go back to 2011 and look at how standard they are.
Mvp is the best player in Sc2 for a different reason than TaeJa or Rain are good, he's just got something nobody else has.
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United States15275 Posts
On October 11 2012 07:28 InoyouS2 wrote:
Mvp is the best player in Sc2 for a different reason than TaeJa or Rain are good, he's just got something nobody else has.
I think it's the will to win despite any and all circumstances.
I remember when Mvp openly talked about his cervical kyphosis for the first time (I believe it was before he attended Homestory Cup) and it was painful. It wasn't like Nestea, who seems to have lost motivation in addition with other stylistic issues. Here was the best terran in the world talking about a condition which was relatively common but bad enough to hinder his gamplay. It could destroy his entire career and Mvp could not do a thing about it. Even later on, Mvp was saying that he didn't dare to get surgery in fear that he would fall behind the scene.
Somehow since Season 1 he keeps winning. His games are not as dominant as before. He drops more series and people are convincingly beating him more and more often in individual sets. But he never loses when the chips are down. It's like he can transcend his pain and bodily problems on mental command.
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On October 11 2012 07:24 Entirety wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 07:21 KoRStarvid wrote:On October 11 2012 07:00 Entirety wrote:
On Mvp as a bonjwa
Honestly, let's give him the title already. Here's my explanation why:
Wings of Liberty is coming to an end soon. By and far, only one player has shown this much success and dominance. No one has even come close to Mvp's level of accomplishments (yes, MC is good, but 6 GSL finals is ridiculous). No one will manage to come close to Mvp's level by the time Wings of Liberty ends (unless MC wins OSL, GSL Season 5, Blizzard Cup, and every tournament in between).
In short, he's a legend in Wings of Liberty. It's not really about whether he has shown complete dominance all of the time, or whether or not he fulfills the requirement, or anything else... The fact is that he has shown himself to be, by far, the greatest player in Wings of Liberty. He has become a legend. Whether we call it a 'bonjwa' or not, the sentiment will be the same. Yes, SC2 bonjwas will definitely be different from BW bonjwas. Whatever a SC2 bonjwa may be... Mvp's definitely one of them.
Why the need to call him bonjwa NOW? He will probably go down in history as the greatest WoL-player, isn't that enough? And if it's established later what a SC2-bonjwa appears like, and Mvp fits that criteria, can't we just wait to give him that title at that point instead of rushing it? Throwing around the title of Bonjwa like it's nothing just seems unnecessary. Have some patience and let Bonjwa actually MEAN something. I think it already means something. Anyway, can't we think of happier things? Now is not the time to bash other Mvp fans, bash people who want their favorite player to be considered a bonjwa, bash people who support Mvp when he's on a hype train... does it all matter? Today, I had a terrible day. One of the worst days of my life. I ran home, saw the results from the LR thread, and my day turned around just like that. Now, I'm in an extremely happy mood... I am glad to say that Mvp's triumph helped me overcome my struggles too. He is a true inspiration. Let's celebrate his victory, please don't taint it.
If you don't want discussion, don't argue for Mvp being crowned a bonjwa at this early stage of SC2s life cycle. Don't be naive.
I'm not trying to taint anything, I'm just concerned that the term is used wrong. I'm a big fan of Jaedong, he is my favourite RTS progamer of all time. He was an absolutely terrible force in BW for several years (you don't earn the nick name The Tyrant for nothing). He was never a bonjwa though, and I'm not (and actually very few are) trying to argue he shouldve been, but the impact he had on the competition was arguably greater than that of any SC2 player to date, and still western SC2 community members throw around the title like it hasnt got any weight to it. It seems disrespectful.
I'm not saying Mvp never will be or isn't a bonjwa right now, but please give it some time before making the call, at least if YOU don't want to taint any thread.
And about bad days: everyone has them. Get over it.
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On October 11 2012 05:33 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 05:19 Luepert wrote:I will now explain an argument for MVP's Bonjwaness. Numerous people have said: "Bonjwa is a tearm only given to people who are expected to win everything! MVP isn't expected to win things so he's not!" The reason MVP isn't favored to win everything is because the community is just plain dumb. I remember after the WC saying that "MVP is the best player in the world!" However, when MVP played Nestea for the 4th time in the GSL (All the previous 3 had gone to MVP)((and this was post blizzcon)) Wolf said "This I one of the greatest upsets of GSL history." There has never really been a moment where the whole community accepted him as the best. Now we refer to him s "past his prime" and say hi glory days were WC/GSL AUG. But even then people were saying his glory days were over and he had peaked in GSL JAN. At blizzcon tons of people said Nestea threw the match because nobody ever wanted to accept MVP as the best player in the world. There was more cheering for MMA when he beat MVP for 1 gsl than when MVP won his 4th. I blame this on the Starcraft scene's obsession with personality. MVP is shy, and just an ordinary guy. He doesn't do ceremonies, he doesn't get in heated twitter rivalries and he doesn't make drama. He's not as cute as hero or Bisu so he just isn't appealing to the majority of the fanbase. Here are some examples. At the time of MVP's 3rd GSL, his fanclub had ~120 pages, Idra's had over 2000. WTF What has Idra done to deserve more attention tahn MVP, MVP is a better player in all regards. Idra got famous by being white and having an attitude. Another example: who here remembers the fucking MC murloc dance? EVERY FUCKING BODY. It annoys me so much, MC beat MVP 2-1 at Providence and then dances in a suit. Does anyone outside of this fanclub remember that the next day MVP 3-0'd in the extended series? Who here besides me remembers MVP walking into the crushed MC's booth and shaking his hand and patting him on the back? He responds with manner even when MC gave him none the previous day. Now if he had done a bigger dance, his fanclub would have 4,000 pages by now like Idra's " " "motherfucker" when he got revenge on cruncher. People more celebrated Idra's close revenge on a low tier north American pro then MVP beating the "best" player in the world at the time. In the starcraft scene, you have to be either, obnoxious, controversial, or cute to get any recognition, simply winning twice as many tournaments as everyone else simply doesn't cut it. well..you didn't exactly argue for his bonjwa status, but you did bring up an interesting point. Western esports tends to prioritize drama and personality too much. Quite sad really
I was specifically arguing against the counter argument of "To be a bonjwa you must always be favored."
My counter was that people don't favor MVP even when they should because they are stupid. In the past, Boxer had cahrisma, oov had legacy and Nada had a "hot body." MVP has none of those things. BW fanboys will never think of him as anything other than a low tier "Woongjin Terran" who got famous for taking a game off flash. If a requirement to ba a bonjwa is to be always favored, and to be favored, you must be liked, and people only like edgy, funny, silly, cute or douchy things then it's hard for a truly nice and humble person to become a bonjwa.
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Damn, really? I'm not trying to be antagonistic here. If you don't think he's a bonjwa, okay then. Cool.
Personally, I think that Mvp has a very good chance against Life. Life is a pretty instinctive, intuitive player. The thing is, Mvp has proven that those types of players don't really work against him.
MarineKing is more instinctive, and Mvp has crushed him every single time.
Squirtle is less instinctive, but Squirtle doesn't exactly come up with revolutionary new build orders on a common basis. Result: Mvp edged him out in the end.
TOP... I can't really tell. I think he's a bit of both, he's not wildly talented nor wildly inventive, he's sort of in the middle. He still got destroyed by Mvp.
How about the one player who beat him at a GSL finals? MMA... his build orders were very planned out, carefully designed by the SlayerS team with much preparation. Result: MMA won.
I think that's the type of player it takes to beat Mvp and Life isn't that player.
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On October 11 2012 07:49 Luepert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 05:33 rysecake wrote:On October 11 2012 05:19 Luepert wrote:I will now explain an argument for MVP's Bonjwaness. Numerous people have said: "Bonjwa is a tearm only given to people who are expected to win everything! MVP isn't expected to win things so he's not!" The reason MVP isn't favored to win everything is because the community is just plain dumb. I remember after the WC saying that "MVP is the best player in the world!" However, when MVP played Nestea for the 4th time in the GSL (All the previous 3 had gone to MVP)((and this was post blizzcon)) Wolf said "This I one of the greatest upsets of GSL history." There has never really been a moment where the whole community accepted him as the best. Now we refer to him s "past his prime" and say hi glory days were WC/GSL AUG. But even then people were saying his glory days were over and he had peaked in GSL JAN. At blizzcon tons of people said Nestea threw the match because nobody ever wanted to accept MVP as the best player in the world. There was more cheering for MMA when he beat MVP for 1 gsl than when MVP won his 4th. I blame this on the Starcraft scene's obsession with personality. MVP is shy, and just an ordinary guy. He doesn't do ceremonies, he doesn't get in heated twitter rivalries and he doesn't make drama. He's not as cute as hero or Bisu so he just isn't appealing to the majority of the fanbase. Here are some examples. At the time of MVP's 3rd GSL, his fanclub had ~120 pages, Idra's had over 2000. WTF What has Idra done to deserve more attention tahn MVP, MVP is a better player in all regards. Idra got famous by being white and having an attitude. Another example: who here remembers the fucking MC murloc dance? EVERY FUCKING BODY. It annoys me so much, MC beat MVP 2-1 at Providence and then dances in a suit. Does anyone outside of this fanclub remember that the next day MVP 3-0'd in the extended series? Who here besides me remembers MVP walking into the crushed MC's booth and shaking his hand and patting him on the back? He responds with manner even when MC gave him none the previous day. Now if he had done a bigger dance, his fanclub would have 4,000 pages by now like Idra's " " "motherfucker" when he got revenge on cruncher. People more celebrated Idra's close revenge on a low tier north American pro then MVP beating the "best" player in the world at the time. In the starcraft scene, you have to be either, obnoxious, controversial, or cute to get any recognition, simply winning twice as many tournaments as everyone else simply doesn't cut it. well..you didn't exactly argue for his bonjwa status, but you did bring up an interesting point. Western esports tends to prioritize drama and personality too much. Quite sad really I was specifically arguing against the counter argument of "To be a bonjwa you must always be favored." My counter was that people don't favor MVP even when they should because they are stupid. In the past, Boxer had cahrisma, oov had legacy and Nada had a "hot body." MVP has none of those things. BW fanboys will never think of him as anything other than a low tier "Woongjin Terran" who got famous for taking a game off flash. If a requirement to ba a bonjwa is to be always favored, and to be favored, you must be liked, and people only like edgy, funny, silly, cute or douchy things then it's hard for a truly nice and humble person to become a bonjwa.
tl;dr nice guys finish last, except in the GSL lol
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Please let's drop the whole bonjwa debate. Let the term lie with BW. There's no need for it in SC2 or any other esports. MVP is the king. That's more than sufficient to describe his status in SC2.
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On October 11 2012 05:34 Kulijo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 05:19 Luepert wrote:
In the starcraft scene, you have to be either, obnoxious, controversial, or cute to get any recognition, simply winning twice as many tournaments as everyone else simply doesn't cut it.
You are somewhat right but you exaggerate. MC has roughly won the same amount as MVP but he has not twice the fanpages because of his personality. And MC does ALOT that can be talked about.
MVP premiere medals: 8G 2S
MC premiere medals: 4G 5S
Yes he has a lot of medals, but statistically he has "half the winner" He makes finals but can't complete.
From these stats we can see that MVP is superior. However, MVP fanclub pages: 225, MC pages: 386.
More people still like MC than MVP. MC is "funny" because he makes threats, trash talks and dances on stage.
What other reasons should there be for a less accomplished player to be more recognized by the community?
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5 time GSL champion incoming!
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On October 11 2012 07:56 Luepert wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 05:34 Kulijo wrote:On October 11 2012 05:19 Luepert wrote:
In the starcraft scene, you have to be either, obnoxious, controversial, or cute to get any recognition, simply winning twice as many tournaments as everyone else simply doesn't cut it.
You are somewhat right but you exaggerate. MC has roughly won the same amount as MVP but he has not twice the fanpages because of his personality. And MC does ALOT that can be talked about. MVP premiere medals: 8G 2S MC premiere medals: 4G 5S Yes he has a lot of medals, but statistically he has "half the winner" He makes finals but can't complete. From these stats we can see that MVP is superior. However, MVP fanclub pages: 225, MC pages: 386. More people still like MC than MVP. MC is "funny" because he makes threats, trash talks and dances on stage. What other reasons should there be for a less accomplished player to be more recognized by the community?
I agree, Mvp needs more pages in his fan club. Still, you have to consider that not everyone watches StarCraft 2 to see the best of the best. Some watch it for entertainment.
You have to admit that MC is a showman at heart, a true entertainer. Whenever you watch him, you can't help but feel that you'll be entertained through his shenanigans. My personal favorite is his OSL ceremony.
That's okay though, StarCraft 2 is not a popularity contest. When people ask who the best of all time is, no one will deny that Mvp holds that title.
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On October 11 2012 07:00 Entirety wrote:
On Mvp's personality...
How can you say Mvp is ordinary? The story of his parents and the house is incredibly touching, the story of his injury is incredibly inspiring, his father is an awesome dude, he is an awesome dude, he's just about the nicest dude in the universe, he's also the best StarCraft 2 player thus seen...
He is NOT just some random Korean Terran. He's Mvp, and he has an amazing personality.
Go Mvp!
Still fans want to see some bigger ceremonies & a little bit more talk/trash talk, like he did with Artosis interview ;D "Terran is the weakest" )
Little funny quote from MrChae "King say 'thank you', King never say a much word" right after asking words for his fans x'))
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EPT
