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On October 11 2012 05:19 Luepert wrote:I blame this on the Starcraft scene's obsession with personality. MVP is shy, and just an ordinary guy. He doesn't do ceremonies, he doesn't get in heated twitter rivalries and he doesn't make drama. He's not as cute as hero or Bisu so he just isn't appealing to the majority of the fanbase. Here are some examples. At the time of MVP's 3rd GSL, his fanclub had ~120 pages, Idra's had over 2000. WTF What has Idra done to deserve more attention tahn MVP, MVP is a better player in all regards. Idra got famous by being white and having an attitude. Another example: who here remembers the fucking MC murloc dance? EVERY FUCKING BODY. It annoys me so much, MC beat MVP 2-1 at Providence and then dances in a suit. Does anyone outside of this fanclub remember that the next day MVP 3-0'd in the extended series? Who here besides me remembers MVP walking into the crushed MC's booth and shaking his hand and patting him on the back? He responds with manner even when MC gave him none the previous day. Now if he had done a bigger dance, his fanclub would have 4,000 pages by now like Idra's "  " "motherfucker" when he got revenge on cruncher. People more celebrated Idra's close revenge on a low tier north American pro then MVP beating the "best" player in the world at the time. In the starcraft scene, you have to be either, obnoxious, controversial, or cute to get any recognition, simply winning twice as many tournaments as everyone else simply doesn't cut it.
True
A bit sad that Mvp is so ordinary 
About "Bonjwaness" I'll rather say that is a term reserved for BW since it's been established during the sAviOr era.
But If we were considering WoL as an "era" ?
Then Mvp is that "WoL era-Bonjwa"
HE IS! :D
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On October 11 2012 05:43 Fizzy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 05:24 ChApFoU wrote:
I second that, and unfortunately it's like that in many other sports and areas. Douchebaggery and being cool/cute is more valued than raw skill but who cares : Deep down inside everybody knows who's the boss and who are the chumps trying to get attention.
MVP doesn't need to be loved or favored. He just wins. There has always been players in all sports that have been hands down the best player, no attitude no gimmicks, just pure brilliant skill and beatufil playstyle and all the others who practise the sport would look up to it and admire that person. A few examples are Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretzky, they are both still considered perhaps the best players of all time. Im pretty sure if someone made some kind of research on all the TL fanclubs, you would notice there being a slightly higher skill-level in Mvps fanclub than lets say in IdrAs. Simply because idra mostly just attract the drama loving american fanboys who sit in the NA silver league once a day and watches his stream for the remainder of his sparetime. Whilst the Mvp fanboys are spread of evenly all over the globe while playing a slightly higher skill-level and league and is looking up to his brilliant play. Also i would like to get a jump in on the whole bonjwa discussion, i agree with both parties on some, i have to agree that Mvp doesnt have that aura that everyone keep talking about, but that is probably because there are so many more events and tournaments going on. If you look at only GSL, mvp has been ranking first in the ELO for the last 2 years, having an insanely high win % and as long as he makes it past the ro16 he has 80%+ winrate. And if people cant agree to call him the first SC2 bonjwa, he will probably get an honorary bonjwa position after he retires, just like BoxeR did, because as most of you oldschool BW people might remember, BoxeR was never considered a bonjwa during his time, and even more... when compared to the other bonjwas or Jaedong.. he isnt even close to their level of achievement. But he still pioneered his time and was always around. Just like Mvp is atm. If you dont want to call him the first bonjwa of SC2 (not yet anyhow, since he still has alot to show u guys before he retires im sure ;> ), you should atleast be able to call him the BoxeR of SC2, since he is pretty much exactly the same thing for SC2 as boxer were for BW :p
Hmm, I can't agree with what you are saying here. While Mvp is arguably the best player to have played Starcraft 2, Boxer pretty much invented the wheel. No disrespect to Mvp, but what Boxer did for RTS games can most probably only be done once. So, Boxer is really the Boxer of Starcraft 2, since he was the Boxer of BW, if that makes any sense 
And as for the bonjwa thing, I think it's safe to say that the kind of bonjwas we had for BW won't exist for Starcraft 2 simply because they are two different games, although undoubtedly very similar in many regards. The thing with the dominant players in BW that earned the title of Bonjwa was that everyone pretty much agreed that they were Bonjwa. That hasn't happened for Starcraft 2. Will it happen? That's up for speculation.
Anywhoooo... Mvp HWAITING!
EDIT: Just to clarify: I don't think that the criteria for being a Bonjwa in BW directly translates to Starcraft 2, but I do think that there's a possibility we can have bonjwas for Starcraft 2, but of a different kind.
EDIT 2: Oh, about the ELO thing. Mvp has topped the end year result of the GSL point ranking 2011 and is topping the 2012 result so far, which is a Great accomplishment, but it is NOT the same as being constantly number 1 in ELO. I don't think any single players has topped the korean ELO for even a month continuously (probably because of rapidly shifting meta-game). Just to get things straight
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You know what, fuck the word "bonjwa". Mvp is the greatest SC2 player, the God. If it's necessary to call him by another word, soon the SC2 community will have to invent a new one to call Gods like Mvp.
Comparing what Mvp's done in SC2 with what Jaedong and others BW players have done? So fking funny. Can you compare the achievements of Real Madrid in Soccer with what New York Giants has done in Football?
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On October 11 2012 06:23 Tauscond wrote:
You know what, fuck the word "bonjwa". Mvp is the greatest SC2 player, the God. If it's necessary to called him by another word, soon the SC2 community will have to invent a new one to call Gods like Mvp.
Comparing what Mvp's done in SC2 with what Jaedong and others BW players have done? So fking funny. Can you compare the achievements of Real Madrid in Soccer with what New York Giants has done in Football?
We already have a name for him. We call him "The King". I think at this point that's his unanimous name in the community. God/The Ultimate Weapon was taken by Flash. The Tyrant by jaedong etc.
Man I just realized the bw guys have so much better names =(
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Any guesses on how many years it will take for another player to reach six finals of OSL/GSL in sc2?
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On October 11 2012 06:36 Dodgin wrote:
Any guesses on how many years it will take for another player to reach six finals of OSL/GSL in sc2?
Hmm, on one hand I think it's easier now because there's more opportunities (osl being added), but then it's also harder because of the larger talent pool now (kespa influx).
I call 2 years before we see another great emerge. Who's gonna call/raise me?
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On October 11 2012 06:36 Dodgin wrote:
Any guesses on how many years it will take for another player to reach six finals of OSL/GSL in sc2?
MC could possibly do it within a year if he keeps up. Three GSL finals so far, and a high probability of an OSL finals soon. And, damn, I have mad respect for both MC and Mvp. :D
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Well, if MC beats DRG next week and makes it to the finals of OSL he will be at 4, which is pretty close. but still far away
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On October 11 2012 06:05 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 05:43 Fizzy wrote:On October 11 2012 05:24 ChApFoU wrote:
I second that, and unfortunately it's like that in many other sports and areas. Douchebaggery and being cool/cute is more valued than raw skill but who cares : Deep down inside everybody knows who's the boss and who are the chumps trying to get attention.
MVP doesn't need to be loved or favored. He just wins. There has always been players in all sports that have been hands down the best player, no attitude no gimmicks, just pure brilliant skill and beatufil playstyle and all the others who practise the sport would look up to it and admire that person. A few examples are Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretzky, they are both still considered perhaps the best players of all time. Im pretty sure if someone made some kind of research on all the TL fanclubs, you would notice there being a slightly higher skill-level in Mvps fanclub than lets say in IdrAs. Simply because idra mostly just attract the drama loving american fanboys who sit in the NA silver league once a day and watches his stream for the remainder of his sparetime. Whilst the Mvp fanboys are spread of evenly all over the globe while playing a slightly higher skill-level and league and is looking up to his brilliant play. Also i would like to get a jump in on the whole bonjwa discussion, i agree with both parties on some, i have to agree that Mvp doesnt have that aura that everyone keep talking about, but that is probably because there are so many more events and tournaments going on. If you look at only GSL, mvp has been ranking first in the ELO for the last 2 years, having an insanely high win % and as long as he makes it past the ro16 he has 80%+ winrate. And if people cant agree to call him the first SC2 bonjwa, he will probably get an honorary bonjwa position after he retires, just like BoxeR did, because as most of you oldschool BW people might remember, BoxeR was never considered a bonjwa during his time, and even more... when compared to the other bonjwas or Jaedong.. he isnt even close to their level of achievement. But he still pioneered his time and was always around. Just like Mvp is atm. If you dont want to call him the first bonjwa of SC2 (not yet anyhow, since he still has alot to show u guys before he retires im sure ;> ), you should atleast be able to call him the BoxeR of SC2, since he is pretty much exactly the same thing for SC2 as boxer were for BW :p I've found that Mvp fans can be among the most insufferable and foolish people in the forums. They're extremely belligerent when it comes to anyone that threatens their mystique of their idol (just check the semifinals recap for proof) and they can't exactly tell you why Mvp is so good besides general descriptions that are parroted about every other pro gamer. The term "bonjwa" did not exist when Boxer was relevant as a champion. It came around as a nickname for July, and started being used in its current vernacular definition when Savior was winning. It was retrofitted to apply to Boxer, iloveoov, and Nada's earlier accomplishments. There is no way to "prove" whether Mvp is a bonjwa or not. There never has been, and never will be, a statistical breaking point that separates a bonjwa from a dominant player. It's just a honorary title bestowed by the community.
I'd argue against that to be honest, on the basis that I rarely ever see flaming in LRs when Mvp is playing against the other player, I feel that Mvp fans are mostly just fans of Mvp not of his performance, they don't necessarily care how good who is up against him.
I think what you might have seen in the semi-final LR was hype train hating (I indeed also added slightly to that), because the amount of hype following a player when he's on a winning streak (e.g: DRG --> MKP --> Squirtle --> TaeJa --> Rain) can get a little obnoxious. I am a fan of many players, but Mvp just has an aura about him when he wins, it's authentic, I don't seem to feel that from any other player.
Also it's an LR thread, so expect to act on impulse when replying.
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I think "The King" is a really appropriate and fitting nickname for MVP. A just, fair, humble, yet unshakeable king, at the head of countless victories. Pure glory
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United States15275 Posts
On October 11 2012 06:46 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 06:05 CosmicSpiral wrote:On October 11 2012 05:43 Fizzy wrote:On October 11 2012 05:24 ChApFoU wrote:
I second that, and unfortunately it's like that in many other sports and areas. Douchebaggery and being cool/cute is more valued than raw skill but who cares : Deep down inside everybody knows who's the boss and who are the chumps trying to get attention.
MVP doesn't need to be loved or favored. He just wins. There has always been players in all sports that have been hands down the best player, no attitude no gimmicks, just pure brilliant skill and beatufil playstyle and all the others who practise the sport would look up to it and admire that person. A few examples are Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretzky, they are both still considered perhaps the best players of all time. Im pretty sure if someone made some kind of research on all the TL fanclubs, you would notice there being a slightly higher skill-level in Mvps fanclub than lets say in IdrAs. Simply because idra mostly just attract the drama loving american fanboys who sit in the NA silver league once a day and watches his stream for the remainder of his sparetime. Whilst the Mvp fanboys are spread of evenly all over the globe while playing a slightly higher skill-level and league and is looking up to his brilliant play. Also i would like to get a jump in on the whole bonjwa discussion, i agree with both parties on some, i have to agree that Mvp doesnt have that aura that everyone keep talking about, but that is probably because there are so many more events and tournaments going on. If you look at only GSL, mvp has been ranking first in the ELO for the last 2 years, having an insanely high win % and as long as he makes it past the ro16 he has 80%+ winrate. And if people cant agree to call him the first SC2 bonjwa, he will probably get an honorary bonjwa position after he retires, just like BoxeR did, because as most of you oldschool BW people might remember, BoxeR was never considered a bonjwa during his time, and even more... when compared to the other bonjwas or Jaedong.. he isnt even close to their level of achievement. But he still pioneered his time and was always around. Just like Mvp is atm. If you dont want to call him the first bonjwa of SC2 (not yet anyhow, since he still has alot to show u guys before he retires im sure ;> ), you should atleast be able to call him the BoxeR of SC2, since he is pretty much exactly the same thing for SC2 as boxer were for BW :p I've found that Mvp fans can be among the most insufferable and foolish people in the forums. They're extremely belligerent when it comes to anyone that threatens their mystique of their idol (just check the semifinals recap for proof) and they can't exactly tell you why Mvp is so good besides general descriptions that are parroted about every other pro gamer. The term "bonjwa" did not exist when Boxer was relevant as a champion. It came around as a nickname for July, and started being used in its current vernacular definition when Savior was winning. It was retrofitted to apply to Boxer, iloveoov, and Nada's earlier accomplishments. There is no way to "prove" whether Mvp is a bonjwa or not. There never has been, and never will be, a statistical breaking point that separates a bonjwa from a dominant player. It's just a honorary title bestowed by the community. I'd argue against that to be honest, on the basis that I rarely ever see flaming in LRs when Mvp is playing against the other player, I feel that Mvp fans are mostly just fans of Mvp not of his performance, they don't necessarily care how good who is up against him. I think what you might have seen in the semi-final LR was hype train hating (I indeed also added slightly to that), because the amount of hype following a player when he's on a winning streak (e.g: DRG --> MKP --> Squirtle --> TaeJa --> Rain) can get a little obnoxious. I am a fan of many players, but Mvp just has an aura about him when he wins, it's authentic, I don't seem to feel that from any other player. Also it's an LR thread, so expect to act on impulse when replying.
They're not fans of Mvp. They're fans of the concept of "Mvp", this supposedly unbeatable and indefatigable badass that embodies everything that is good and pure about SC2. If you were not familiar with who Mvp was you'd think they were religious fanatics. I see the same thing with a lot of Nestea fans as well.
And that's a shame. Mvp is one of the nicest and humblest pro gamers out there.
I was talking about the recap thread, not the LR thread.
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Finals count:
Mvp - 6
MMA - 3
NesTea - 3
Marineking - 3
MC - 3
DRG - 2
Rain -1
Seed - 1
Squirtle - 1
Leenock - 1
Jjakji -1
Polt -1
MC or DRG will add +1 next week
And then a whole bunch of players who I really doubt will ever make another final.
That's the current competition for Mvp's record.
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Hmm here are some of my thoughts:
On Mvp's fans being obnoxious
Actually, I would disagree. I think we are incredibly supportive of Mvp, but we don't exactly bash the other players continually. I have said that "Mvp will crush Rain", but I never meant that as "Rain is terrible", I meant that as "Mvp is so good".
On Mvp as a bonjwa
Honestly, let's give him the title already. Here's my explanation why:
Wings of Liberty is coming to an end soon. By and far, only one player has shown this much success and dominance. No one has even come close to Mvp's level of accomplishments (yes, MC is good, but 6 GSL finals is ridiculous). No one will manage to come close to Mvp's level by the time Wings of Liberty ends (unless MC wins OSL, GSL Season 5, Blizzard Cup, and every tournament in between).
In short, he's a legend in Wings of Liberty. It's not really about whether he has shown complete dominance all of the time, or whether or not he fulfills the requirement, or anything else... The fact is that he has shown himself to be, by far, the greatest player in Wings of Liberty. He has become a legend. Whether we call it a 'bonjwa' or not, the sentiment will be the same. Yes, SC2 bonjwas will definitely be different from BW bonjwas. Whatever a SC2 bonjwa may be... Mvp's definitely one of them.
On Mvp winning against Rain
WTF MVP IS SO GOOD. I would like to say I knew it all along, but man, even I had a few lingering doubts. Still, I believed in Mvp and Mvp paid me back more than enough!!
On Mvp in the finals...
Life is scary. Life 3-0 TaeJa is scary, but TaeJa had been looking shaky, especially versus Byul and Dark. Mvp definitely has a chance, and I think Mvp's chance against Life is much greater than his chance against Rain. Thus, Mvp is going to take home #5.
On Mvp's personality...
How can you say Mvp is ordinary? The story of his parents and the house is incredibly touching, the story of his injury is incredibly inspiring, his father is an awesome dude, he is an awesome dude, he's just about the nicest dude in the universe, he's also the best StarCraft 2 player thus seen...
He is NOT just some random Korean Terran. He's Mvp, and he has an amazing personality.
Go Mvp!
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On October 11 2012 04:47 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 04:44 redviper wrote:On October 11 2012 04:37 rysecake wrote:On October 11 2012 04:35 redviper wrote:On October 11 2012 04:23 rysecake wrote:On October 11 2012 04:15 redviper wrote:But how many times have we betted agaisnt the guy? We said naniwa would beat him, we said parting would beat him, we said rain would beat him. Who are these mythical "we". I haven't bet against mvp since his victory over mkp in the world championship finals. Even when he is down and looks broken, I know that he can pull out a win. A smart drop, a good run by, incredible patience, a cheese, a hidden base .. whatever it takes. That is what makes mvp a bonjwa in my eyes - you can never ever count him out. Not to mention that everytime there is a new innovation in the meta game for terrans, its mvp leading the way. Did you see how he single handedly changed TvZ at IEM? Now everyone does banshee, thor, tank, hellion. This "we" is the majority of TL in case you haven't noticed. Check the "head" vs "heart" votes for mvp vs rain. Mvp is the best palyer in sc2 so far and my favorite non kespa player. But I'm getting pretty sick of this bonjwa bullshit when 90% of the people using it don't even understand what the term means. Call him the king, call him the greatest sc2 player to date. All fine edit: well apparently there are more votes for mvp in "head" now than before the games. Fucking cheaters voting after the games so they don't look bad lol Your argument is faulty because you are generalizing based on a selective poll. Worse there is some weird shit going on with the defense of bonjwa. MVP is the bonjwa because you don't own the term. BW doesn't own the term. Why is that word so precious to you bw fans? MVP isn't just the king, he is the God. And he is the only bonjwa in SC2. If he wins this final even the general opinion will place him as a bonjwa. And we can all point out how we knew he was a bonjwa even before he won his fourth title. Oh also MVP is THE bonjwa. Not just a former bonjwa like all the old ones. haha k w.e you say buddy. I've been an mvp fan since he took a game off flash in 2010. I'm even the first person to sign up for this fanclub. But you're just fucking ridiculous lol. You can call him w.e you want. The korean community decides who becomes a bonjwa anyway, so I guess tastosis will let us know when he actually becomes one. cya later The way you throw around that title I feel awful for Jaedong. Someone who's accomplished 3x as much as mvp, and still isn't a bonjwa. What a poor fellow =( Really? Jaedong has won 12 GSLs? Damn thats really impressive. Yep. Wanna know what's even more impressive? That the majority of TL favored naniwa, parting, and rain to beat mvp. Man this guy sure seems invincible! edit: well from your history in this thread it seems like you've been trying to fight for mvp's bonjwa status since he won 3 championships (and right before he lost to mma the next season LOL). Keep fighting the good fight bro. I feel awful having to downplay mvp when he's my favorite gsl player. But god people like you are annoying
I have no particular love of the word bonjwa. Its a stupid expression with almost no meaning. I call mvp the God.
However, in the community people seem to think that being bonjwa matters. And if there is anyone who could ever be a bonjwa it should be mvp. No one has won so much, with so many things going against him.
No one with a semblance of neutrality could have put naniwa over mvp. Naniwa is an insolent child and always has been. The foreigner love might have pushed the polls for naniwa higher, but teamliquid polls aren't unbiased. You should look at the Gomtv.net polls and you'll see that MVP was favored over everyone except Parting, and that was pretty close (I think like 48-52 or something).
You know what is really annoying? That you are putting mvp down in his fan thread. Pedantic assholes are a lot more annoying than fans. Especially when they bring their pedantic douchebaggery into fan threads.
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On October 11 2012 06:51 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 06:46 InoyouS2 wrote:On October 11 2012 06:05 CosmicSpiral wrote:On October 11 2012 05:43 Fizzy wrote:On October 11 2012 05:24 ChApFoU wrote:
I second that, and unfortunately it's like that in many other sports and areas. Douchebaggery and being cool/cute is more valued than raw skill but who cares : Deep down inside everybody knows who's the boss and who are the chumps trying to get attention.
MVP doesn't need to be loved or favored. He just wins. There has always been players in all sports that have been hands down the best player, no attitude no gimmicks, just pure brilliant skill and beatufil playstyle and all the others who practise the sport would look up to it and admire that person. A few examples are Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretzky, they are both still considered perhaps the best players of all time. Im pretty sure if someone made some kind of research on all the TL fanclubs, you would notice there being a slightly higher skill-level in Mvps fanclub than lets say in IdrAs. Simply because idra mostly just attract the drama loving american fanboys who sit in the NA silver league once a day and watches his stream for the remainder of his sparetime. Whilst the Mvp fanboys are spread of evenly all over the globe while playing a slightly higher skill-level and league and is looking up to his brilliant play. Also i would like to get a jump in on the whole bonjwa discussion, i agree with both parties on some, i have to agree that Mvp doesnt have that aura that everyone keep talking about, but that is probably because there are so many more events and tournaments going on. If you look at only GSL, mvp has been ranking first in the ELO for the last 2 years, having an insanely high win % and as long as he makes it past the ro16 he has 80%+ winrate. And if people cant agree to call him the first SC2 bonjwa, he will probably get an honorary bonjwa position after he retires, just like BoxeR did, because as most of you oldschool BW people might remember, BoxeR was never considered a bonjwa during his time, and even more... when compared to the other bonjwas or Jaedong.. he isnt even close to their level of achievement. But he still pioneered his time and was always around. Just like Mvp is atm. If you dont want to call him the first bonjwa of SC2 (not yet anyhow, since he still has alot to show u guys before he retires im sure ;> ), you should atleast be able to call him the BoxeR of SC2, since he is pretty much exactly the same thing for SC2 as boxer were for BW :p I've found that Mvp fans can be among the most insufferable and foolish people in the forums. They're extremely belligerent when it comes to anyone that threatens their mystique of their idol (just check the semifinals recap for proof) and they can't exactly tell you why Mvp is so good besides general descriptions that are parroted about every other pro gamer. The term "bonjwa" did not exist when Boxer was relevant as a champion. It came around as a nickname for July, and started being used in its current vernacular definition when Savior was winning. It was retrofitted to apply to Boxer, iloveoov, and Nada's earlier accomplishments. There is no way to "prove" whether Mvp is a bonjwa or not. There never has been, and never will be, a statistical breaking point that separates a bonjwa from a dominant player. It's just a honorary title bestowed by the community. I'd argue against that to be honest, on the basis that I rarely ever see flaming in LRs when Mvp is playing against the other player, I feel that Mvp fans are mostly just fans of Mvp not of his performance, they don't necessarily care how good who is up against him. I think what you might have seen in the semi-final LR was hype train hating (I indeed also added slightly to that), because the amount of hype following a player when he's on a winning streak (e.g: DRG --> MKP --> Squirtle --> TaeJa --> Rain) can get a little obnoxious. I am a fan of many players, but Mvp just has an aura about him when he wins, it's authentic, I don't seem to feel that from any other player. Also it's an LR thread, so expect to act on impulse when replying. They're not fans of Mvp. They're fans of the concept of "Mvp", this supposedly unbeatable and indefatigable badass that embodies everything that is good and pure about SC2. If you were not familiar with who Mvp was you'd think they were religious fanatics. I see the same thing with a lot of Nestea fans as well. And that's a shame. Mvp is one of the nicest and humblest pro gamers out there. I was talking about the recap thread, not the LR thread.
Yeah, I'm doubtful those are actual fans, a lot of them may just be boarding another hype train, which is annoying because if Mvp wins or loses, they'll just jump on the next hot player that comes along.
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On October 11 2012 06:07 KoRStarvid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 05:43 Fizzy wrote:On October 11 2012 05:24 ChApFoU wrote:
I second that, and unfortunately it's like that in many other sports and areas. Douchebaggery and being cool/cute is more valued than raw skill but who cares : Deep down inside everybody knows who's the boss and who are the chumps trying to get attention.
MVP doesn't need to be loved or favored. He just wins. There has always been players in all sports that have been hands down the best player, no attitude no gimmicks, just pure brilliant skill and beatufil playstyle and all the others who practise the sport would look up to it and admire that person. A few examples are Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretzky, they are both still considered perhaps the best players of all time. Im pretty sure if someone made some kind of research on all the TL fanclubs, you would notice there being a slightly higher skill-level in Mvps fanclub than lets say in IdrAs. Simply because idra mostly just attract the drama loving american fanboys who sit in the NA silver league once a day and watches his stream for the remainder of his sparetime. Whilst the Mvp fanboys are spread of evenly all over the globe while playing a slightly higher skill-level and league and is looking up to his brilliant play. Also i would like to get a jump in on the whole bonjwa discussion, i agree with both parties on some, i have to agree that Mvp doesnt have that aura that everyone keep talking about, but that is probably because there are so many more events and tournaments going on. If you look at only GSL, mvp has been ranking first in the ELO for the last 2 years, having an insanely high win % and as long as he makes it past the ro16 he has 80%+ winrate. And if people cant agree to call him the first SC2 bonjwa, he will probably get an honorary bonjwa position after he retires, just like BoxeR did, because as most of you oldschool BW people might remember, BoxeR was never considered a bonjwa during his time, and even more... when compared to the other bonjwas or Jaedong.. he isnt even close to their level of achievement. But he still pioneered his time and was always around. Just like Mvp is atm. If you dont want to call him the first bonjwa of SC2 (not yet anyhow, since he still has alot to show u guys before he retires im sure ;> ), you should atleast be able to call him the BoxeR of SC2, since he is pretty much exactly the same thing for SC2 as boxer were for BW :p Hmm, I can't agree with what you are saying here. While Mvp is arguably the best player to have played Starcraft 2, Boxer pretty much invented the wheel. No disrespect to Mvp, but what Boxer did for RTS games can most probably only be done once. So, Boxer is really the Boxer of Starcraft 2, since he was the Boxer of BW, if that makes any sense And as for the bonjwa thing, I think it's safe to say that the kind of bonjwas we had for BW won't exist for Starcraft 2 simply because they are two different games, although undoubtedly very similar in many regards. The thing with the dominant players in BW that earned the title of Bonjwa was that everyone pretty much agreed that they were Bonjwa. That hasn't happened for Starcraft 2. Will it happen? That's up for speculation. Anywhoooo... Mvp HWAITING! EDIT: Just to clarify: I don't think that the criteria for being a Bonjwa in BW directly translates to Starcraft 2, but I do think that there's a possibility we can have bonjwas for Starcraft 2, but of a different kind. EDIT 2: Oh, about the ELO thing. Mvp has topped the end year result of the GSL point ranking 2011 and is topping the 2012 result so far, which is a Great accomplishment, but it is NOT the same as being constantly number 1 in ELO. I don't think any single players has topped the korean ELO for even a month continuously (probably because of rapidly shifting meta-game). Just to get things straight
I agree with everything in your post up to the last edit; TaeJa ranked top in ELO after winning very small tournaments with clean sweep records, his ELO has been fairly consistent for the last 2-3 months. BUT, as Khaldor and many others have stated, ELO is a terrible metric for skill/performance in Sc2.
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On October 11 2012 07:00 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 04:47 rysecake wrote:On October 11 2012 04:44 redviper wrote:On October 11 2012 04:37 rysecake wrote:On October 11 2012 04:35 redviper wrote:On October 11 2012 04:23 rysecake wrote:On October 11 2012 04:15 redviper wrote:But how many times have we betted agaisnt the guy? We said naniwa would beat him, we said parting would beat him, we said rain would beat him. Who are these mythical "we". I haven't bet against mvp since his victory over mkp in the world championship finals. Even when he is down and looks broken, I know that he can pull out a win. A smart drop, a good run by, incredible patience, a cheese, a hidden base .. whatever it takes. That is what makes mvp a bonjwa in my eyes - you can never ever count him out. Not to mention that everytime there is a new innovation in the meta game for terrans, its mvp leading the way. Did you see how he single handedly changed TvZ at IEM? Now everyone does banshee, thor, tank, hellion. This "we" is the majority of TL in case you haven't noticed. Check the "head" vs "heart" votes for mvp vs rain. Mvp is the best palyer in sc2 so far and my favorite non kespa player. But I'm getting pretty sick of this bonjwa bullshit when 90% of the people using it don't even understand what the term means. Call him the king, call him the greatest sc2 player to date. All fine edit: well apparently there are more votes for mvp in "head" now than before the games. Fucking cheaters voting after the games so they don't look bad lol Your argument is faulty because you are generalizing based on a selective poll. Worse there is some weird shit going on with the defense of bonjwa. MVP is the bonjwa because you don't own the term. BW doesn't own the term. Why is that word so precious to you bw fans? MVP isn't just the king, he is the God. And he is the only bonjwa in SC2. If he wins this final even the general opinion will place him as a bonjwa. And we can all point out how we knew he was a bonjwa even before he won his fourth title. Oh also MVP is THE bonjwa. Not just a former bonjwa like all the old ones. haha k w.e you say buddy. I've been an mvp fan since he took a game off flash in 2010. I'm even the first person to sign up for this fanclub. But you're just fucking ridiculous lol. You can call him w.e you want. The korean community decides who becomes a bonjwa anyway, so I guess tastosis will let us know when he actually becomes one. cya later The way you throw around that title I feel awful for Jaedong. Someone who's accomplished 3x as much as mvp, and still isn't a bonjwa. What a poor fellow =( Really? Jaedong has won 12 GSLs? Damn thats really impressive. Yep. Wanna know what's even more impressive? That the majority of TL favored naniwa, parting, and rain to beat mvp. Man this guy sure seems invincible! edit: well from your history in this thread it seems like you've been trying to fight for mvp's bonjwa status since he won 3 championships (and right before he lost to mma the next season LOL). Keep fighting the good fight bro. I feel awful having to downplay mvp when he's my favorite gsl player. But god people like you are annoying I have no particular love of the word bonjwa. Its a stupid expression with almost no meaning. I call mvp the God. However, in the community people seem to think that being bonjwa matters. And if there is anyone who could ever be a bonjwa it should be mvp. No one has won so much, with so many things going against him. No one with a semblance of neutrality could have put naniwa over mvp. Naniwa is an insolent child and always has been. The foreigner love might have pushed the polls for naniwa higher, but teamliquid polls aren't unbiased. You should look at the Gomtv.net polls and you'll see that MVP was favored over everyone except Parting, and that was pretty close (I think like 48-52 or something). You know what is really annoying? That you are putting mvp down in his fan thread. Pedantic assholes are a lot more annoying than fans. Especially when they bring their pedantic douchebaggery into fan threads.
You joined this club in december 2011, where were you back when mvp was struggling? when he was falling to code a? Oh right, I'm not a fan. I've only been the longest fan in this fan club.
Cosmic is right. The majority of people here aren't mvp fans, just like the majority of flash fans aren't actually flash fans. They're all merely fans of what they represent (the top tier of starcraft play). I was insulted earlier today for suggesting mvp to retire soon after winning this gsl to get treatment for his neck. What did people respond to me with? "you're stupid, why would mvp retire when he can keep winning?" People like that don't actually care for the person that is mvp, they only care for the sc2 mvp.
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On October 11 2012 07:01 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 06:51 CosmicSpiral wrote:On October 11 2012 06:46 InoyouS2 wrote:On October 11 2012 06:05 CosmicSpiral wrote:On October 11 2012 05:43 Fizzy wrote:On October 11 2012 05:24 ChApFoU wrote:
I second that, and unfortunately it's like that in many other sports and areas. Douchebaggery and being cool/cute is more valued than raw skill but who cares : Deep down inside everybody knows who's the boss and who are the chumps trying to get attention.
MVP doesn't need to be loved or favored. He just wins. There has always been players in all sports that have been hands down the best player, no attitude no gimmicks, just pure brilliant skill and beatufil playstyle and all the others who practise the sport would look up to it and admire that person. A few examples are Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretzky, they are both still considered perhaps the best players of all time. Im pretty sure if someone made some kind of research on all the TL fanclubs, you would notice there being a slightly higher skill-level in Mvps fanclub than lets say in IdrAs. Simply because idra mostly just attract the drama loving american fanboys who sit in the NA silver league once a day and watches his stream for the remainder of his sparetime. Whilst the Mvp fanboys are spread of evenly all over the globe while playing a slightly higher skill-level and league and is looking up to his brilliant play. Also i would like to get a jump in on the whole bonjwa discussion, i agree with both parties on some, i have to agree that Mvp doesnt have that aura that everyone keep talking about, but that is probably because there are so many more events and tournaments going on. If you look at only GSL, mvp has been ranking first in the ELO for the last 2 years, having an insanely high win % and as long as he makes it past the ro16 he has 80%+ winrate. And if people cant agree to call him the first SC2 bonjwa, he will probably get an honorary bonjwa position after he retires, just like BoxeR did, because as most of you oldschool BW people might remember, BoxeR was never considered a bonjwa during his time, and even more... when compared to the other bonjwas or Jaedong.. he isnt even close to their level of achievement. But he still pioneered his time and was always around. Just like Mvp is atm. If you dont want to call him the first bonjwa of SC2 (not yet anyhow, since he still has alot to show u guys before he retires im sure ;> ), you should atleast be able to call him the BoxeR of SC2, since he is pretty much exactly the same thing for SC2 as boxer were for BW :p I've found that Mvp fans can be among the most insufferable and foolish people in the forums. They're extremely belligerent when it comes to anyone that threatens their mystique of their idol (just check the semifinals recap for proof) and they can't exactly tell you why Mvp is so good besides general descriptions that are parroted about every other pro gamer. The term "bonjwa" did not exist when Boxer was relevant as a champion. It came around as a nickname for July, and started being used in its current vernacular definition when Savior was winning. It was retrofitted to apply to Boxer, iloveoov, and Nada's earlier accomplishments. There is no way to "prove" whether Mvp is a bonjwa or not. There never has been, and never will be, a statistical breaking point that separates a bonjwa from a dominant player. It's just a honorary title bestowed by the community. I'd argue against that to be honest, on the basis that I rarely ever see flaming in LRs when Mvp is playing against the other player, I feel that Mvp fans are mostly just fans of Mvp not of his performance, they don't necessarily care how good who is up against him. I think what you might have seen in the semi-final LR was hype train hating (I indeed also added slightly to that), because the amount of hype following a player when he's on a winning streak (e.g: DRG --> MKP --> Squirtle --> TaeJa --> Rain) can get a little obnoxious. I am a fan of many players, but Mvp just has an aura about him when he wins, it's authentic, I don't seem to feel that from any other player. Also it's an LR thread, so expect to act on impulse when replying. They're not fans of Mvp. They're fans of the concept of "Mvp", this supposedly unbeatable and indefatigable badass that embodies everything that is good and pure about SC2. If you were not familiar with who Mvp was you'd think they were religious fanatics. I see the same thing with a lot of Nestea fans as well. And that's a shame. Mvp is one of the nicest and humblest pro gamers out there. I was talking about the recap thread, not the LR thread. Yeah, I'm doubtful those are actual fans, a lot of them may just be boarding another hype train, which is annoying because if Mvp wins or loses, they'll just jump on the next hot player that comes along.
Stop being such a hipster. People like and support winners. However mvp fans are often not that shallow. They stand behind him through his "slumps" as well his peaks.
Someone else said that we don't know why mvp is so good we are in love with his mystique. That is actually true. Part of the reason why I like mvp so much is because he has an ineffable quality that lets him win games. There isn't a single aspect of mvp's play that is incredible, it is all aspects of his play that are incredible, even mental toughness, foresight, game sense. Things that can't be explained by pointing to a single event or single decision. That is why mvp is better than anyone else despite his injuries.
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United States15275 Posts
On October 11 2012 07:00 Entirety wrote:
Hmm here are some of my thoughts:
On Mvp's fans being obnoxious
Actually, I would disagree. I think we are incredibly supportive of Mvp, but we don't exactly bash the other players continually. I have said that "Mvp will crush Rain", but I never meant that as "Rain is terrible", I meant that as "Mvp is so good".
But you can imagine how obnoxious that sounds to people who actively support Rain, right? Especially to the fans who are pretty respectful of Mvp and go "I believe in Rain but this will be the hardest fight he's ever had in his SC2 career"? It's not like it's easy to tell the difference.
Anyway I'm not in here to fight about whether all his fans are disrespectful or not. I'm noting that it doesn't matter whether Mvp deserves to be called a bonjwa or not, because he is the most successful SC2 player in history and that is a much stronger foundation for respect and admiration than a mere word.
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Here's why Mvp is the best at playing for long series:
Game 1 - He fails an all-in. Is he fazed? Nope, he calmly stays in the game and warms up, already preparing for the other games.
Game 2 - Win.
Game 3 - He fails an all-in, but that's intentional. He gets his opponent playing defensively so that...
Game 4 - ...he can play super macro style. Win.
Game 5 - Amazing game sense, predicts the DTs.
His series play is a combination of preparation and instinct, careful planning and improvising (we call that "adaptability"). He's the greatest, no doubt about that.
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EPT
