On December 11 2013 01:45 mihajovics wrote: you assume it is impossible to determine from P's perspective T's composition in time and T is the one that dictates the game and P has to be reactive.
not at all
I rewatched the video, sorry but I still don't get it. Let me summerize what I think your arguments are in my own words: A) Bio is so resilient vs any other P composition that currently it is possible for Terran to play bio every single game without much risk (in fact that's what they do). B) If mech is made viable as well, than P has to play a reactionary kind of game (since B>AM, B=AB, M>AB, M=AM). C) The way (B) will be balanced is via P all-ins.
I just don't get it why you jump to this conclisuion. Could you elaborate why P couldn't have a safe vs. everything build? The other thing is, if T's choice of M vs B is possible to scout in time, than why would reactionary play be a problem? Why would it turn into allins? The problem with WoL ZvP was not only that P dictated the game, but that Z couldn't scout effectively enough. You only need allins balance wise if you MUST blind counter stuff. If you can scout, the macro way will hopefully be stronger.
He says that terran will choose the composition that is best for each map and when protoss reacts to that composition they are always at a disadvantage. If you're always at a disadvantage you would then lean towards all-ins
It was mentioned that NonY went DT's in a couple of games (maybe just one?) on his stream recently, dunno what matchup, but does anyone know were to find the vod? I have been skimming through a couple of vods now, but just cannot seem to find the game(s) :O
On December 11 2013 20:30 pestilenz wrote: It was mentioned that NonY went DT's in a couple of games (maybe just one?) on his stream recently, dunno what matchup, but does anyone know were to find the vod? I have been skimming through a couple of vods now, but just cannot seem to find the game(s) :O
On December 11 2013 19:35 Wodger wrote: He says that terran will choose the composition that is best for each map and when protoss reacts to that composition they are always at a disadvantage. If you're always at a disadvantage you would then lean towards all-ins
why does one assume that if protoss reacts they are at a disadvantage? if that's some universal truth, we have much much deeper problems with the game than we are discussing now.
It's not that they must be at a disadvantage because they're reacting. But being in a reactionary position isn't preferable. All other things equal, the player who gets to decide what strategies and tactics and compositions and everything else are gonna be used in a game is at an advantage. In order to understand it better, try thinking of a more extreme case: one player always gets to choose both players' races. Sure all the matchups could be balanced, so it wouldn't be possible for him to pick a favorable setup in that respect, but his advantage is still obvious.
The thing is that bio play is so resilient and good for all stages of the game, because that's what has been balanced and has been the focus of competitive play since 2010, that you can't just make mech have all the same strengths as bio and tell terran "we've actually designed two perfectly viable ways for you to play from top to bottom. pick one and have fun". At least one of them must be situational and have some glaring weaknesses along with some unique strengths.
What I've gathered from mech players is that they want mech to be as solid and dependable as it was in BW. As long as bio is filling that role, then what's the point? I don't get it from a game design perspective. They don't just want more variety because they don't want the increased risks inherent to that. They already hate how often protoss is currently rewarded for risky play. They are basically saying "these are the units I like. this is the style of play I like. make it viable." If bio was so unreliable and so boring, then I could understand it. But it can take on anything, it is mechanically challenging and tactically challenging, and it makes for a lot of action and cool moves. It is everything we could want in a StarCraft matchup and their response is "but I like tankssssss". Well, my favorite unit was the reaver, but I play SC2 now.
But sure, buff mech. I'm just saying that mech players should consider that if mech gets buffed, it probably won't turn into the thing that they really desire.
On December 12 2013 01:31 NonY wrote: It's not that they must be at a disadvantage because they're reacting. But being in a reactionary position isn't preferable. All other things equal, the player who gets to decide what strategies and tactics and compositions and everything else are gonna be used in a game is at an advantage. In order to understand it better, try thinking of a more extreme case: one player always gets to choose both players' races. Sure all the matchups could be balanced, so it wouldn't be possible for him to pick a favorable setup in that respect, but his advantage is still obvious.
The thing is that bio play is so resilient and good for all stages of the game, because that's what has been balanced and has been the focus of competitive play since 2010, that you can't just make mech have all the same strengths as bio and tell terran "we've actually designed two perfectly viable ways for you to play from top to bottom. pick one and have fun". At least one of them must be situational and have some glaring weaknesses along with some unique strengths.
What I've gathered from mech players is that they want mech to be as solid and dependable as it was in BW. As long as bio is filling that role, then what's the point? I don't get it from a game design perspective. They don't just want more variety because they don't want the increased risks inherent to that. They already hate how often protoss is currently rewarded for risky play. They are basically saying "these are the units I like. this is the style of play I like. make it viable." If bio was so unreliable and so boring, then I could understand it. But it can take on anything, it is mechanically challenging and tactically challenging, and it makes for a lot of action and cool moves. It is everything we could want in a StarCraft matchup and their response is "but I like tankssssss". Well, my favorite unit was the reaver, but I play SC2 now.
But sure, buff mech. I'm just saying that mech players should consider that if mech gets buffed, it probably won't turn into the thing that they really desire.
Sometimes I can't help but feel that Blizzard is trying to make Flash happy with these mech buffs.
I'm not so sure about the reactionary thing... I mean, having the extra information might even be an advantage, from purely a theoretical standpoint! so much of what's beautiful in this game is about information, or the lack thereof, in principle I agree with encouraging game play where obtaining information is part of the game dynamic. of course it already is, but still. I get your point though, for example in chess it is universally agreed that white (the first one to move) has a slight advantage. but unlike chess, SC is not a full information game so having extra information can be turned into strategical advantages, like map control, army positioning, better compositional choices, timings of expansions, etc
I think terrans want 2 things: build variety and a better endgame. mech could fix both issues with a fair tradeoff: bio is stronger midgame but weaker endgame while mech could be the other way around.
EDIT: I mean P having the better early game is obvious now, they can chose to defend everything with the MSC mechanic or chose from a lot of cheeses and allins, T's 10 min push is and always will be scary and in general the midgame always has been the biggest strength of bio and I believe we can agree upon bio having a harder time in the endgame than P right? so there are obvious weaknesses and tradeoffs already
I really like Nony's playstyle. It was really unfortunate that one hydra popped out at the last second and killed the MSC because he pushed the crap out of Suppy around like a good protoss should. It's nice to see micro dictating the effectiveness of a protoss build from start to finish (PvZ); I would play this style if I could play faster and multitask better. Here's to hoping he can refine those FFs even better; good luck vs neeb Nony.
EPT
