EPTBut disagreeing or having an issue about the fact that MC, or anyone else for that matter, cheesed to win is retarded and is fucking annoying.
MC Fan Club - Page 60
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jstar
Canada568 Posts
But disagreeing or having an issue about the fact that MC, or anyone else for that matter, cheesed to win is retarded and is fucking annoying. | ||
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Sarang
Australia2363 Posts
On April 15 2011 21:35 jstar wrote: People are allowed to disagree and to have opinions. But disagreeing or having an issue about the fact that MC, or anyone else for that matter, cheesed to win is retarded and is fucking annoying. Depends what the issue is. If people are just disappointed because they wanted to see an epic game, and in their opinion quick cheese isn't epic - then that's fine. But yeah, people who think MC didn't deserve the win or played unfairly are just idiots. | ||
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Coolguy
68 Posts
Sign me up please! MC has been my favorite toss player since the first couple of matches i saw him in. Damn he's such a baller. Also, that tweet he made after dream hack completely pwned whitera. Whitera is also awesome, but he's just a whole other class | ||
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Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + The fact that they didn't understand why MC proxied and why it was so awesome was stupid, but acceptable. Actually berating him for using a no-strategy build when that's exactly what he was doing? Not even acceptable if they were right. ∞ <- This is the ascent of man. You stand over -> | ||
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SilverLeagueElite
United States626 Posts
On April 15 2011 21:30 Sarang wrote: SilverLeagueElite - you think that that same person shouldn't be allowed to post in the fanclub because he said: "Not my favorite player, but I can respect his skill and proffesional approach to the game." Believe it or not, you can be a fan without being a fanatic about it. You can be a fan and still be critical of the player but the tone of the original quote was pretty biased: "I don't blame someone wanting to get a sure win for the money. It was a lot of money. White-Ra still gets my respect for wanting to show the audience a good game, no matter how much money is at stake." If you are going to criticize that MC is not putting on a good show because he plays to win(money), then equal criticism should be applied to White-Ra for being predictable and failing to scout, thereby not putting on a show. But it is White-Ra that comes out ahead in this? It does take two to tango, after all. Nowhere did I state the person shouldn't be allowed to post. I do question the motivation behind the post. | ||
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L4hlborg
Finland34 Posts
On April 15 2011 05:22 SilverLeagueElite wrote: You respect White-Ra for wanting to show good games, but he does the same opening 5 games in a row? MC opens differently every game and came back from 0:2, surely this is a better show of good game? It's the stress of money that makes it more exciting because you know they are playing to win. Remove money so that they play for your entertainment and you remove the incentive to win. MC fan club may not be the best place for you. I'm a bit new here so I'll just directly quote and not fancily cut it apart, since I would just mess that up. White-Ra's same oppening lead to very different builds (fancy eco-y 4gate, expand build, slower 4gate (bad idea, but still), basic robo and the infamous dieing to proxy gates -build). A player does not have to open different ways to do a different build. I'd say they were good games, all of them. Sure the proxy was a brilliant move, I can't deny that. It was just not exactly the most enjoyable game in the world. Not saying that no money should be involved, just not a 15000$ or nothing situation, since that kinda encourages to go for the best winning solution, not the best solution for the viewers (which is usually a long macro game or something insane and new, not a basic cheese). This is what I mean by White-Ra wanting to show a good game: he wanted to please the audience, where MC was going more for the win. I can respect MCs approach there, since nobody should be blamed for making a good exploit for 15 000 $. And since critisism isn't aloud, I don't think this is my place. Thanks for showing me that this is a fanboy club, not a fan club. | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On April 16 2011 01:21 L4hlborg wrote: I'm a bit new here so I'll just directly quote and not fancily cut it apart, since I would just mess that up. White-Ra's same oppening lead to very different builds (fancy eco-y 4gate, expand build, slower 4gate (bad idea, but still), basic robo and the infamous dieing to proxy gates -build). A player does not have to open different ways to do a different build. I'd say they were good games, all of them. Sure the proxy was a brilliant move, I can't deny that. It was just not exactly the most enjoyable game in the world. Not saying that no money should be involved, just not a 15000$ or nothing situation, since that kinda encourages to go for the best winning solution, not the best solution for the viewers (which is usually a long macro game or something insane and new, not a basic cheese). This is what I mean by White-Ra wanting to show a good game: he wanted to please the audience, where MC was going more for the win. I can respect MCs approach there, since nobody should be blamed for making a good exploit for 15 000 $. And since critisism isn't aloud, I don't think this is my place. Thanks for showing me that this is a fanboy club, not a fan club. It's a fans that support MC and use logic club, actually. What makes you think WhiteRa wanted to only please the audience and show good games besides him saying that? MC says that all the time as well but for some reason people don't listen. It makes you look good and makes you look humble if you lose. If you win, you look good and have the prize money. WhiteRa played to win too or he wouldn't have kept cutting corners. If you think he didn't want to win $15,000 over $0 then I don't know what to say. If he wanted all long, drawn out epic PvPs (sorry, but that's not what PvP is, feel happy that you saw one game with an expansion) he wouldn't have 4gated the first game---which is a build meant to kill them in the beginning and if you don't, you have failed and the game is over. He would've lost immediately afterward if he hadn't managed to sneak a 1 HP probe in, which isn't a "ballsy" move like the biased commentators were shouting but a desperation move and basically all he could have done to win. He tried to pressure with an econ four gate, which is just stupid play because econ four gate loses 95% of the time to 3gate robo and the only thing it is good against is an aggressive four gate, which didn't come. MC lost game 1 because he wanted to put on a show instead of four gating on a map where four gate is basically necessary due to not having a 1-forcefield ramp. In game two that WhiteRa did he took a risk and went colossi + nexus at the same time. He won the game fair and square, but again, that is not trying to have a 'good game' but praying that you get an advantage early by sacrificing safety and then winning afterward before the opponent catches up. Game 1 - Four Gate Game 2 - 3 Gate Robo, expand, colossi Game 3 - Four Gate Game 4- 3 Gate Robo Game 5 - nothing What about those games is WhiteRa showing good, exciting PvPs exactly? I do the same thing every day on ladder. Everyone game WhiteRa tried to play extremely greedy. If he wanted to show "epic" games he would've played safe and shown different builds than 3gate robo and 4gate. It's not like he showed he wanted to go voidray/immortal/zealot 4 bases or something that you never see in PvP. He was trying to play standard PvP. The only "audience pleasing" thing that WhiteRa did was warp prism play in the first game they ever played, then every game afterward WhiteRa did nothing except try the warp prism play again and lose. The difference between WhiteRa and MC is that MC has a past of showboating (not a big deal, it's obvious he's actually a good guy) and is Korean. Both have said they want to show good games for their fans, both reach out to the community, but MC is more successful and arguably more skilled overall. But members of the community lash out against MC for beating foreigners even though he tries to please them. It's the same QQ about how he rolled JulyZerg. JulyZerg gets praised for his somewhat all-in hydra drops when MC is going for a macro game, then zomg MC so BM and skill-less when he does an all-in or timing push. JulyZerg did that aggression because he was confident it would win, and when he won people went crazy. MC did his pushes because he was confident he would win, when he did, people mumbled about him being a cheeser. People are just mad when a winner wins. | ||
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SilverLeagueElite
United States626 Posts
On April 16 2011 01:21 L4hlborg wrote: I'm a bit new here so I'll just directly quote and not fancily cut it apart, since I would just mess that up. White-Ra's same oppening lead to very different builds (fancy eco-y 4gate, expand build, slower 4gate (bad idea, but still), basic robo and the infamous dieing to proxy gates -build). A player does not have to open different ways to do a different build. I'd say they were good games, all of them. Sure the proxy was a brilliant move, I can't deny that. It was just not exactly the most enjoyable game in the world. Not saying that no money should be involved, just not a 15000$ or nothing situation, since that kinda encourages to go for the best winning solution, not the best solution for the viewers (which is usually a long macro game or something insane and new, not a basic cheese). This is what I mean by White-Ra wanting to show a good game: he wanted to please the audience, where MC was going more for the win. I can respect MCs approach there, since nobody should be blamed for making a good exploit for 15 000 $. And since critisism isn't aloud, I don't think this is my place. Thanks for showing me that this is a fanboy club, not a fan club. Criticism is fine but you are being unfair with your criticism. You say White-Ra wants to show good games but when he is so predictable, MC ends up proxying him. The onus is on White-Ra to show good game by holding off the rush and be less predictable. If you're going to criticize MC, you also need to criticize White-Ra for being so predictable and losing to simple cheese. There's more than one person involved in a duel. Within a tournament, you play to win. MC and White-Ra should play to win. If you want to see a show match, then watch a show match. This was not a show match. But you are saying MC was there to win and White-Ra was there for a show match. You are holding them to different standards when they are both there to do the same thing. To Win. You may not like the manner in which the win occurred but it's the result of both players' actions that dictated the outcome. | ||
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L4hlborg
Finland34 Posts
On April 16 2011 02:58 SilverLeagueElite wrote: You may not like the manner in which the win occurred but it's the result of both players' actions that dictated the outcome. That is exactly what I have been saying. This is a pretty silly argument, since it all started with me saying that I was slightly dissapointed because an epic series ended in a cheese, which I don't consider epic no matter how smart it is. Because it kinda just ends before the other dude builds anything. Not really a battle. If I ever said that White-Ra wasn't playing to win, I messed up. Of cource he is playing to win. I'd say he had more focus on the good game department than MC, who was a bit more focused with winning (I would at least believe that most people would have liked to see a game with an actual battle). Every player who makes any sense at all does a bit of both. And at least I enjoyed White-Ra's play, even though he didn't go for four base colossi in pvp like someone suggested. That would be stupid. If I wanna see a good game, that is not what I want to see since the person doing that would instantly get mauled, resulting in just a slower version of the third game. When doing something cool, you don't have to be a moron while doing it. Running around placing pylons in the enemy base while doing a frontal assault is cool. Teching up while expanding is kinda cool (hangs around on the extremely risky/stupid department, but hey, it worked). Warp prisms are epic. (Not saying that MCs blinks or robo defenses aren't cool - just saying something to White-Ra's defense). | ||
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MoonfireSpam
United Kingdom1153 Posts
The fact that MC even felt like he had to reply to people expecting him to not play to win is sad. Hopefully he doesn't think the entire forgien community are douchbags. And to end on a positive, good luch in GSL May, pretty sure MC will tear it up again. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On April 16 2011 01:39 Heavenly wrote: It's a fans that support MC and use logic club, actually. What makes you think WhiteRa wanted to only please the audience and show good games besides him saying that? MC says that all the time as well but for some reason people don't listen. It makes you look good and makes you look humble if you lose. If you win, you look good and have the prize money. WhiteRa played to win too or he wouldn't have kept cutting corners. If you think he didn't want to win $15,000 over $0 then I don't know what to say. If he wanted all long, drawn out epic PvPs (sorry, but that's not what PvP is, feel happy that you saw one game with an expansion) he wouldn't have 4gated the first game---which is a build meant to kill them in the beginning and if you don't, you have failed and the game is over. He would've lost immediately afterward if he hadn't managed to sneak a 1 HP probe in, which isn't a "ballsy" move like the biased commentators were shouting but a desperation move and basically all he could have done to win. He tried to pressure with an econ four gate, which is just stupid play because econ four gate loses 95% of the time to 3gate robo and the only thing it is good against is an aggressive four gate, which didn't come. MC lost game 1 because he wanted to put on a show instead of four gating on a map where four gate is basically necessary due to not having a 1-forcefield ramp. In game two that WhiteRa did he took a risk and went colossi + nexus at the same time. He won the game fair and square, but again, that is not trying to have a 'good game' but praying that you get an advantage early by sacrificing safety and then winning afterward before the opponent catches up. Game 1 - Four Gate Game 2 - 3 Gate Robo, expand, colossi Game 3 - Four Gate Game 4- 3 Gate Robo Game 5 - nothing What about those games is WhiteRa showing good, exciting PvPs exactly? I do the same thing every day on ladder. Everyone game WhiteRa tried to play extremely greedy. If he wanted to show "epic" games he would've played safe and shown different builds than 3gate robo and 4gate. It's not like he showed he wanted to go voidray/immortal/zealot 4 bases or something that you never see in PvP. He was trying to play standard PvP. The only "audience pleasing" thing that WhiteRa did was warp prism play in the first game they ever played, then every game afterward WhiteRa did nothing except try the warp prism play again and lose. The difference between WhiteRa and MC is that MC has a past of showboating (not a big deal, it's obvious he's actually a good guy) and is Korean. Both have said they want to show good games for their fans, both reach out to the community, but MC is more successful and arguably more skilled overall. But members of the community lash out against MC for beating foreigners even though he tries to please them. It's the same QQ about how he rolled JulyZerg. JulyZerg gets praised for his somewhat all-in hydra drops when MC is going for a macro game, then zomg MC so BM and skill-less when he does an all-in or timing push. JulyZerg did that aggression because he was confident it would win, and when he won people went crazy. MC did his pushes because he was confident he would win, when he did, people mumbled about him being a cheeser. People are just mad when a winner wins. The truth right here. Also, sign me up. Even though I'm a zerg player, its still pretty fascinating to see such a dominant player in this game, and I'm a fan because he is such a solid player and people make such a big deal even taking a single game off of him! | ||
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kheldorin
Singapore539 Posts
On April 16 2011 06:50 L4hlborg wrote: That is exactly what I have been saying. This is a pretty silly argument, since it all started with me saying that I was slightly dissapointed because an epic series ended in a cheese, which I don't consider epic no matter how smart it is. Because it kinda just ends before the other dude builds anything. Not really a battle. If I ever said that White-Ra wasn't playing to win, I messed up. Of cource he is playing to win. I'd say he had more focus on the good game department than MC, who was a bit more focused with winning (I would at least believe that most people would have liked to see a game with an actual battle). Every player who makes any sense at all does a bit of both. And at least I enjoyed White-Ra's play, even though he didn't go for four base colossi in pvp like someone suggested. That would be stupid. If I wanna see a good game, that is not what I want to see since the person doing that would instantly get mauled, resulting in just a slower version of the third game. When doing something cool, you don't have to be a moron while doing it. Running around placing pylons in the enemy base while doing a frontal assault is cool. Teching up while expanding is kinda cool (hangs around on the extremely risky/stupid department, but hey, it worked). Warp prisms are epic. (Not saying that MCs blinks or robo defenses aren't cool - just saying something to White-Ra's defense). You don't get it. It could have been a battle if White-Ra had scouted the cheese. We could have seen an epic defense and it still could transition to a longer game. I remember I think Inca doing the same thing in Lost Temple GSL 1 where it ended up all the way to colossus wars. Still for me, it was cool the way MC came back from 0-2, just dissected White-Ra's play, come up with the best possible strategy on the fly to win the final game. For me there's nothing to cool about watching battles or seeing warp prisms/Motherships fly around. What's cool are the micro, the strategies and the thought behind it. And on that day, MC had the best brain. | ||
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B.I.G.
3251 Posts
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SilverLeagueElite
United States626 Posts
On April 16 2011 06:50 L4hlborg wrote: That is exactly what I have been saying. This is a pretty silly argument, since it all started with me saying that I was slightly dissapointed because an epic series ended in a cheese, which I don't consider epic no matter how smart it is. Because it kinda just ends before the other dude builds anything. Not really a battle. If the final game ended in cheese, then criticize White-Ra for being predictable. Criticize White-Ra for not putting up a fight because he skipped a zealot and failed to scout. If the final game wasn't epic, it's because both players didn't make it epic. But you seem unwilling to be critical of White-Ra's play in the slightest. | ||
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PHC
United States472 Posts
On April 15 2011 21:30 Sarang wrote: I've been wanting to say this for awhile. Guys, people are allowed to disagree with stuff MC has said/done. I think we are allowed to discuss it as well. Being a fan of a player =/= blindly approving of everything that player does. PHC, you're telling someone to "GET THE FUCK OUT" because he didn't feel the last game was particularly epic, and he wanted to see an epic one. Really? Oh boy. Please understand the context of the situation. Dreamhack results has almost become a taboo subject at this point because an ignorant minority is disappointed in MC's method of winning. Let me repeat that word: WINNING. Also: http://itmejp.blip.tv/file/5012319/ jump to 1:25:00 Considering the circumstances, the two users that "expressed disappointment" or "wanted an epic game" in Dreamhack are 100% trollbaiting in his FANCLUB. This is like "expressing disappointment" to Michael Jordan for pushing Bryon Russell so he can have a better chance of making "the shot" in game 6 of the NBA Finals. In Michael Jordan's fanclub. Except this is game 7 of the '98 Finals. It is one thing to be claiming to be a fan and respecting the player's skills and decisions. Some people deem it completely necessary to defend Bryon Russell for not contesting Michael Jordan's shot. And then post about it. In MJ's fanclub. If you are a Bryon Russell fan, great. That is not important here. What we have in MC is very rare. He has what separates a champion from a "very good player." He is the most dominating player in SC2. He does it with brute force, intelligence, style, and skill. He is also one of the very few progamers that interacts and makes an honest effort to communicate to fans outside of Korea. Many, including myself, have wanted this for almost a decade in Brood War. Given the circumstances, any downplay of MC's accomplishments at Dreamhack from here on out should not post in his fanclub. We don't need a page of comments defending MC when that is completely unnecessary. MC does not need to change his game, playstyle, his demeanor, his swagger FOR ANYBODY. Instead, let MC do what he does best: WIN | ||
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Flare23
United States27 Posts
As for me, the entertainment value of competition only comes through when 2 of the highest level competitors are focusing all their efforts to winning (within a set of rules followed by both parties). | ||
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blackone
Germany1314 Posts
"so i'm 0win 0lose count BRAT_OK 2win 0lose count sorry have a nice day ^^" Seems like he has forfeited his NASL match due to, ehm, something | ||
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Grettin
42416 Posts
"혹시나 하는 마음에 글적습니다 NASL 이번주에 제 경기 기다리시는분이 계시면 주무세요~ 제가 비행기가 연착되는바람에 상대방이 기권승으로 처리됬고 NASL측에서 비행기때문이란걸 알고 저는 패로는 기록시키지 않았어요 ㅎㅎ 즐거운 밤되세요" 아 내가 적고 내가 읽는데 무슨말인지 모르겠다 ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ 몰라 알아서 해석하세요 외국팬분들 ㅠㅠ Since atleast i couldn't quite understand this:  i'm worry today NASL i flying in air NASL start so my fight partner win me lose but NASL admins think i'm flying. so i'm 0win 0lose count BRAT_OK 2win 0lose count sorry have a nice day ^^ | ||
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L4hlborg
Finland34 Posts
"I'm not denying that the proxy gates weren't a good move - they were, really. But I'm a bit dissapointed since I was looking forward to an epic final game." Did I say I was dissapointed in what MC in particular did? No. Did I say that MC was a horrible turd for 2 gating? No. Did I deny that it was a well thought out strat and he deserved the win? No. I said I was wanting to see a more epic game, that's all. An epic series ender. An insanely tight micro/macro heavy battle(s) with tech and shit. Instead it was a proxy 2gate which basically always ends the game without a proper fight (zealots kill everything or probes deny the cheese in a way that it's pretty impossible to come back). I don't remember pointing any fingers. I mean sure, someone might say that building 2 gateways in your opponents base is taking the initiative for making a game short and cheesy, but a winning move is a winning move. I did mention that White-Ra messed up some stuff and said that his build was exploitable. You are just too focused on showing how much I hate MC and how biased I am. Have fun in your weird MC fanboy paradise guys. I know you won't miss me, someone will make a post of that. Just to avoid any waste of my time in this place or your building your weird MC shrines at home, I'll just go ahead and say that the feeling is mutual. Bye. | ||
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Shalaiyn
Netherlands2735 Posts
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