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Personal attacks in this thread will draw a temp ban. |
On January 01 2012 23:36 Incognoto wrote:Outplayed? Shakuras Plateau is Terran favored map and it's really hard to dislodge a Terran on a map like that, especially when they play the "gay" defensive style like in the game. Idra didn't get outplayed; Idra didn't outplay Polt hard enough to win the game, because that's Shakuras Plateau. There's a difference. ^^ And I kind of agree with Idra in that Polt isn't that great a player. Not saying he's BAD, but compared to other Koreans he's really nothing special and he didn't play that well in the game in that VOD.
oh come on isn't shakuras 52% tvz? that's not so much terran favored u trying to make it look like.
Polt simply didn't do anything about mutas wrecking his main base that's why he got 80 supply behind (it wasn't bad defense, it was complete lack of defense for a period). idra would have quit at this point. then polt rebuilds everything and owns broodlord-infestor with thor-marine and like 2 vikings. if anything this means polt's control was much better. then he begins ridiculously effective multi pronged dropping that idra can't defend well enough, with great micro and multitasking.
idra then makes 5 ultas against mass marine tank thor, insults polt and leaves the game.
this game showed, that polt has a much stronger mindset and awesome control. he also all-killed whole teamliquid without losing a game, he was 75% no1 korean ladder not so long ago etc. is it really necessary to make excuses for idra like "he didn't try because of the map"? he got beaten in a game he shouldn't have lost. he didn't play good enough.
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Lets calm down guys... its 1 freaking ladder match... and btw, its REALLY damn hard to dislodge a terran who takes the middle in shakuras...
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On January 02 2012 09:40 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 23:36 Incognoto wrote:Outplayed? Shakuras Plateau is Terran favored map and it's really hard to dislodge a Terran on a map like that, especially when they play the "gay" defensive style like in the game. Idra didn't get outplayed; Idra didn't outplay Polt hard enough to win the game, because that's Shakuras Plateau. There's a difference. ^^ And I kind of agree with Idra in that Polt isn't that great a player. Not saying he's BAD, but compared to other Koreans he's really nothing special and he didn't play that well in the game in that VOD. oh come on isn't shakuras 52% tvz? that's not so much terran favored u trying to make it look like. Polt simply didn't do anything about mutas wrecking his main base that's why he got 80 supply behind (it wasn't bad defense, it was complete lack of defense for a period). idra would have quit at this point. then polt rebuilds everything and owns broodlord-infestor with thor-marine and like 2 vikings. if anything this means polt's control was much better. then he begins ridiculously effective multi pronged dropping that idra can't defend well enough, with great micro and multitasking. idra then makes 5 ultas against mass marine tank thor, insults polt and leaves the game. this game showed, that polt has a much stronger mindset and awesome control. he also all-killed whole teamliquid without losing a game, he was 75% no1 korean ladder not so long ago etc. is it really necessary to make excuses for idra like "he didn't try because of the map"? he got beaten in a game he shouldn't have lost. he didn't play good enough.
52% does not reflect the current winrate from the terran perspective. A lot of recent matches featuring good players in tvz has went t's way.
Stating that Idra would have quit at that point is a stupid allegation. Firstly, he has not played terran in sc2 at any point. Secondly, he has been staying in game much longer (at least most of the time) since moving to Korea.
You don't know if Polt's control was better because you did not see the game from both players perspective.
Idra made other units than 5 ultras.
I personally think that it's a somewhat vague conclusion to state that this game reflects anything about mindset in general. It was one ladder game. If you have been watching idra streaming, you'll know that he does not put the same amount of effort into ladder games as is the case for tournament games.
All-killing TL doesn't mean all that much. TL does not have many players playing at the level of top korean players. Furthermore, being number one on ladder doesn't mean that much either because blizzard are using a ton of worthless maps relative to those used in GSL.
I sincerely believe you're overestimating Idra's lead if he even had any. The map works greatly in terrans favor in lategame, especially once bases starts to get mined out. Despite being 70 supply down, Polt knew the exact locations of Idra's mining bases at any point in time and could easily hold middle position while dropping. In contrast, Idra is forced into a position where he's working against time because Polt will win if he can get away with just mining his side of the map. At the same time, Idra has to defend top and bottom while pushing middle where the terrain is working against him. I think you're right that he could have played better, but it is not fair to claim that he should not have lost the game. It wasn't hugely in his favor at any point from what I saw.
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Good luck in GSL code S, tuff draw but you can do it!
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The game against Polt was ridiculous. What is a zerg to do in that situation? I thought IdrA's control and defense was quite good considering how easy it is for Terran to drop multiple locations with 8 marines while still controlling the middle of the map. Polt didn't react to mutas because if he did he would have lost his foot hold in the middle. Well played by both sides, but there were times when I was wondering why Polt wasn't GGing out.
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guys guys guys lets drop all the idrA vs polt Talk, remember, it was just a ladder game!
polt played very well and idrA made some mistakes, but thats why idrA is laddering in the first place, in order to detect the cause of potential mistakes and fix them so they will not happen in tournament games 
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On January 02 2012 10:31 buldermar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 09:40 msjakofsky wrote:On January 01 2012 23:36 Incognoto wrote:Outplayed? Shakuras Plateau is Terran favored map and it's really hard to dislodge a Terran on a map like that, especially when they play the "gay" defensive style like in the game. Idra didn't get outplayed; Idra didn't outplay Polt hard enough to win the game, because that's Shakuras Plateau. There's a difference. ^^ And I kind of agree with Idra in that Polt isn't that great a player. Not saying he's BAD, but compared to other Koreans he's really nothing special and he didn't play that well in the game in that VOD. oh come on isn't shakuras 52% tvz? that's not so much terran favored u trying to make it look like. Polt simply didn't do anything about mutas wrecking his main base that's why he got 80 supply behind (it wasn't bad defense, it was complete lack of defense for a period). idra would have quit at this point. then polt rebuilds everything and owns broodlord-infestor with thor-marine and like 2 vikings. if anything this means polt's control was much better. then he begins ridiculously effective multi pronged dropping that idra can't defend well enough, with great micro and multitasking. idra then makes 5 ultas against mass marine tank thor, insults polt and leaves the game. this game showed, that polt has a much stronger mindset and awesome control. he also all-killed whole teamliquid without losing a game, he was 75% no1 korean ladder not so long ago etc. is it really necessary to make excuses for idra like "he didn't try because of the map"? he got beaten in a game he shouldn't have lost. he didn't play good enough. 52% does not reflect the current winrate from the terran perspective. A lot of recent matches featuring good players in tvz has went t's way. Stating that Idra would have quit at that point is a stupid allegation. Firstly, he has not played terran in sc2 at any point. Secondly, he has been staying in game much longer (at least most of the time) since moving to Korea. You don't know if Polt's control was better because you did not see the game from both players perspective. Idra made other units than 5 ultras. I personally think that it's a somewhat vague conclusion to state that this game reflects anything about mindset in general. It was one ladder game. If you have been watching idra streaming, you'll know that he does not put the same amount of effort into ladder games as is the case for tournament games. All-killing TL doesn't mean all that much. TL does not have many players playing at the level of top korean players. Furthermore, being number one on ladder doesn't mean that much either because blizzard are using a ton of worthless maps relative to those used in GSL. I sincerely believe you're overestimating Idra's lead if he even had any. The map works greatly in terrans favor in lategame, especially once bases starts to get mined out. Despite being 70 supply down, Polt knew the exact locations of Idra's mining bases at any point in time and could easily hold middle position while dropping. In contrast, Idra is forced into a position where he's working against time because Polt will win if he can get away with just mining his side of the map. At the same time, Idra has to defend top and bottom while pushing middle where the terrain is working against him. I think you're right that he could have played better, but it is not fair to claim that he should not have lost the game. It wasn't hugely in his favor at any point from what I saw.
yeah i see you can make a lot of excuses that strengthen idra's performance and lessen polt's in this particular game. a lot. instead of admitting he got manhandled/outplayed.
being a fan doesn't mean you have to do this 
to argue with the one i like least, yes you can judge who had better control and mindset. polt's control is his strongest point, and those units shouldn't have beaten a lot of broodlords/infestors. idra lost half a dozen broodlords to marines. also polt had to remake a huge part of his production, and he had no ghosts and barely any vikings. it's not irreal at all that idra would have left a game where he is 80 supply behind, doesn't have the correct composition and most of his production is destroyed. it's not complicated- polt fights till the end and idra doesn't, he sometimes even leaves games when up on supply. and he even insulted the player who beat him.
try to judge things just a little bit more objectively.
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That's it, eneough bickering like old women =_= Idra played like shit, and lost on ladder, and BMd. I really don't think this should be given much more attention that all the other cases :/
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yeah... IdrA loses to scrubs all the time... so why can't he lose to Polt
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On January 02 2012 12:34 ThePlayer33 wrote:
yeah... IdrA loses to scrubs all the time... so why can't he lose to Polt
he can lose, doesn't mean he is a bad player- but the excuses for him are discrediting polt, which i don't like
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remember guys if idra loses its only map disbalance or opponent did all in or other races op he would have 100% winrate otherwise :D
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especially when they play the "gay" defensive style like in the game
lol, so when Koreans play aggressive, it is cheese. If they play macro and defensive, they are 'gay'?
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On January 02 2012 15:04 vthree wrote:lol, so when Koreans play aggressive, it is cheese. If they play macro and defensive, they are 'gay'?
No, on that map if you go split map with Terran you have a HUGE advantage over Zerg, which is why it feels "gay" for the Zerg.
On January 02 2012 14:27 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 12:34 ThePlayer33 wrote:
yeah... IdrA loses to scrubs all the time... so why can't he lose to Polt he can lose, doesn't mean he is a bad player- but the excuses for him are discrediting polt, which i don't like
As much as I love Polt, even he would agree that Shakuras is really T sided. Idra honestly played better than Polt that game and he deserved the win. Polt didn't play well compared to his normal level of play to be honest.
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On January 02 2012 15:06 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 15:04 vthree wrote:especially when they play the "gay" defensive style like in the game lol, so when Koreans play aggressive, it is cheese. If they play macro and defensive, they are 'gay'? No, on that map if you go split map with Terran you have a HUGE advantage over Zerg, which is why it feels "gay" for the Zerg. Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 14:27 msjakofsky wrote:On January 02 2012 12:34 ThePlayer33 wrote:
yeah... IdrA loses to scrubs all the time... so why can't he lose to Polt he can lose, doesn't mean he is a bad player- but the excuses for him are discrediting polt, which i don't like As much as I love Polt, even he would agree that Shakuras is really T sided. Idra honestly played better than Polt that game and he deserved the win. Polt didn't play well compared to his normal level of play to be honest.
How can you call IdrA good when he doesnt spread creep at all past 12min mark?
+ Show Spoiler +jkjk IdrA played so well that game -- got behind after the reaper bunker pressure + T-favored map and he almost won anyway
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How can we call him good when he doesn't spread creep past 12 minutes?
Basically - if anyone lets him get into a game past 12 minutes, his chance of winning increases, regardless of creep. Statistically I don't know for sure, but any time someone allows Idra to get into macro mode, I'd bet in his favor vs most other top SC2 players.
Not saying 12 minutes is when macro games begin, but as soon as the game shifts into true strategy and gameplay and less on techniques, specific build orders, "cheese" if you will... Idra is as good as they come.
Anyone can win a game early on. SC2 gets interesting in mid-to-late game and the truly "good" players (IMO) are the ones who play/strategize/execute the best under those later game circumstances. That's the type of player Idra is.
As an analogy, in football (soccer), the better team can and does often lose. A freak goal early on, an unlucky bounce, a mistimed tackle can create a winning situation for a lesser team. But the beautiful thing about soccer is how the game in it's entirety is played by a particular team, or both teams. Doesn't mean they always win.
Once the fluff of early game has settled, Idra plays SC2 beautifully and masterfully.
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Once the fluff of early game has settled, Idra plays SC2 beautifully and masterfully.
LOL, yeah, Idra is the NR15 Bonjwa!!!
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i demand it to be happy in here!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YGUXD.png)
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@LittleAtari: next time please check if it was already posted I posted this yesterday already.
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drop the idra vs polt talk, it was a ladder game -.-' anyways idro can make his group, he lives in the slayers house and mma could kick mvp's ass. mma can probably help idra agianst mvp.
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On January 02 2012 12:29 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 10:31 buldermar wrote:On January 02 2012 09:40 msjakofsky wrote:On January 01 2012 23:36 Incognoto wrote:Outplayed? Shakuras Plateau is Terran favored map and it's really hard to dislodge a Terran on a map like that, especially when they play the "gay" defensive style like in the game. Idra didn't get outplayed; Idra didn't outplay Polt hard enough to win the game, because that's Shakuras Plateau. There's a difference. ^^ And I kind of agree with Idra in that Polt isn't that great a player. Not saying he's BAD, but compared to other Koreans he's really nothing special and he didn't play that well in the game in that VOD. oh come on isn't shakuras 52% tvz? that's not so much terran favored u trying to make it look like. Polt simply didn't do anything about mutas wrecking his main base that's why he got 80 supply behind (it wasn't bad defense, it was complete lack of defense for a period). idra would have quit at this point. then polt rebuilds everything and owns broodlord-infestor with thor-marine and like 2 vikings. if anything this means polt's control was much better. then he begins ridiculously effective multi pronged dropping that idra can't defend well enough, with great micro and multitasking. idra then makes 5 ultas against mass marine tank thor, insults polt and leaves the game. this game showed, that polt has a much stronger mindset and awesome control. he also all-killed whole teamliquid without losing a game, he was 75% no1 korean ladder not so long ago etc. is it really necessary to make excuses for idra like "he didn't try because of the map"? he got beaten in a game he shouldn't have lost. he didn't play good enough. 52% does not reflect the current winrate from the terran perspective. A lot of recent matches featuring good players in tvz has went t's way. Stating that Idra would have quit at that point is a stupid allegation. Firstly, he has not played terran in sc2 at any point. Secondly, he has been staying in game much longer (at least most of the time) since moving to Korea. You don't know if Polt's control was better because you did not see the game from both players perspective. Idra made other units than 5 ultras. I personally think that it's a somewhat vague conclusion to state that this game reflects anything about mindset in general. It was one ladder game. If you have been watching idra streaming, you'll know that he does not put the same amount of effort into ladder games as is the case for tournament games. All-killing TL doesn't mean all that much. TL does not have many players playing at the level of top korean players. Furthermore, being number one on ladder doesn't mean that much either because blizzard are using a ton of worthless maps relative to those used in GSL. I sincerely believe you're overestimating Idra's lead if he even had any. The map works greatly in terrans favor in lategame, especially once bases starts to get mined out. Despite being 70 supply down, Polt knew the exact locations of Idra's mining bases at any point in time and could easily hold middle position while dropping. In contrast, Idra is forced into a position where he's working against time because Polt will win if he can get away with just mining his side of the map. At the same time, Idra has to defend top and bottom while pushing middle where the terrain is working against him. I think you're right that he could have played better, but it is not fair to claim that he should not have lost the game. It wasn't hugely in his favor at any point from what I saw. yeah i see you can make a lot of excuses that strengthen idra's performance and lessen polt's in this particular game. a lot. instead of admitting he got manhandled/outplayed. being a fan doesn't mean you have to do this to argue with the one i like least, yes you can judge who had better control and mindset. polt's control is his strongest point, and those units shouldn't have beaten a lot of broodlords/infestors. idra lost half a dozen broodlords to marines. also polt had to remake a huge part of his production, and he had no ghosts and barely any vikings. it's not irreal at all that idra would have left a game where he is 80 supply behind, doesn't have the correct composition and most of his production is destroyed. it's not complicated- polt fights till the end and idra doesn't, he sometimes even leaves games when up on supply. and he even insulted the player who beat him. try to judge things just a little bit more objectively.
You're making allegations again.
Firstly, I'm not a part of the Idra fanclub. However, I do think he's a good player, so I guess I'm guilty of that.
My points were not excuses meant to deflect some sort of undoubtable conclusion. Rather, I showed that you have a lot of flaws in your statements that could be questioned. For instance, a sentence like "instead of admitting he got manhandled" isn't actually anything but an allegation. You provide no proof of such. Rather, you consider the statement itself sufficient. However, I don't share that point of view.
You somehow seem to turn the lack of ghosts and vikings into an argument in Polts favor? I'm not the one arguing one player is significantly better than the other - YOU, however, does exactly that. As such, per definition, you are the fanboy making extreme and absurd conclusions.
Stating that Idra would leave a game being 80 supply behind is perhaps true but that's not comparable at all. Zerg dynamics are much unlike those of terran. Being behind 80 supply with zerg is a much bigger disadvantage in almost every situation.
I guess your final comment sums it up. In your eyes, this is not complicated. This is just reflecting some preset state of mind. Idra doesn't try hard, Polt does. Idra judges people, Polt doesn't. From that you jump to the conclusion that Polt>Idra.
I am actually judging this as objectively as I can, taking into consideration that you're making absurd claims about one player being manhandled, one player having a better mindset, one player have stronger controls... without providing me with any proof hereof. I merely wanted to question this, but your prejudice is preventing you from see it because this debate is taking place in the Idra fanclub.
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EPT
