The PiG Daily - Thinking critically about SC - Page 12
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Granas1988
14 Posts
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PiGStarcraft
Australia984 Posts
Build Order and How to defend Notes + Show Spoiler + Today is a short episode showcasing a dirty cheese for zergs to do when they’re struggling vs Protoss and really need to get some easy wins to soothe their bruised egos. I present to you - “The Therapy Build”. This is one from wayyy back when Dark vs Stats The Build 17 gas 17 pool 18 hatch Queen + 2 lings to hunt down the probe and deny vision Cut drones at 19. 16 on minerals, 3 on gas. (no workers on natural) @100gas ling speed 2nd queen asap (first queen moves to inject natural) 22 Roach warren 21 replace drone that made warren 22 2xoverlord (OPTION)2-3 more pairs of lings to control the map and stop adepts spotting the roaches (or skip these for a sharper timing and rely on them retreating at the correct time to survive ling speed finishing) You can skip these lings and hit way harder - most protoss will know your ling speed is fast so won’t risk being on the map anyway. However if you prefer 100% information denial get these lings 7 roaches Mass lings YOLO! Morph damaged roaches into ravagers (5-armour when morphing + full heal when finished) Target down pylons Try to de-power gateways Ok now I feel dirty - so I guess I’ll show you how to defend this sort of bullshit too. Build units out of gateway Chrono warpgate a tad Ensure 2 more gateways down by 3:20 at the latest Mocore starts right after tech structure so 2 overcharges during the hold Always wall off at natural first to make it easier Memorise your wall-offs | ||
Schmorfling
6 Posts
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PiGStarcraft
Australia984 Posts
Thinking Outside The Box - ICYFAR - PiG Daily #77 Replays: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0suoovMS9qxd29kSnFwcHZRZ28 | ||
Probe1
United States17920 Posts
Thank you! | ||
PiGStarcraft
Australia984 Posts
Replays https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0suoovMS9qxZmppLXozRjBxNFE | ||
Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
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PiGStarcraft
Australia984 Posts
Show Notes + Show Spoiler + Replay: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0suoovMS9qxVnVub01hRnNDd0E THESE GUYS FROM THE CAMPAIGN - Hammer securities! http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Hammer_Securities Played by a guy called Hammer Guaranteed to stop apprehend all unwanted intruders on your premises! Also it’ll drive them bloody insane trying to figure out what the hell your build is aiming for and struggling to scout wif you’re going all-in or macroing up! This is a really funky, unique build that is hard to read for players who have little experience vs it. It’s a very defensive opening and removes the need for lightning reflexes in the TvT early-game. It also plays very well into the meta of players going mass reaper, or multiple reapers and helions in the early-game. Hammer doesn’t have blazing hot apm - almost half of mine in this game - and yet he outplays me really hard. The build Barracks Tech lab 3 marauders Swaps off tech lab Reactor 2 marines Swap onto tech lab stim Rallies next scv to gas Double gas at the same time as scv pops 2nd depot immediately after rax finishes (same scv) Tech lab first 25 gas Factory next 100 gas Tech lab Cyclone Widow mine Big pause 5:00 (after banshee/raven done) - Tank production Marauder next 25 gas Concussive next 50 gas @factory - starport + tech lab Starport Swap onto tech lab Cloak Raven (more time to gather energy) Banshee (just want to force the response and poke around) Swap onto rax reactor Medivac production 3:30 (37 supply) 3rd CC @natural CC - 3rd + 4th gas immediately 2xrax + reactors when you have cash Single ebay 2xrax 3rd CC Banshee hits the main Raven hits the natural (same time is probably stronger) 4xmedivac doom-drop the main with tanks and stim bio whilst securing 3rd base and pumping out of 5-rax Good move to do something a bit risky/crazy since your econ isn’t too strong and you need to try and keep getting damage done So it: Shuts down aggression Reapers+helions - rekt Banshees - rekt by cyclone/raven Denies Scouting Reapers can’t get in to see whats up - opponent has to use more scans Can skip scanning and scouting yourself since you’re solid vs everything. No need to worry about scouting constantly or mind-games from the opponent Downside Is a little light on the economy Is VERY defensive in the earlystages Relies on your opponent respecting the potential for you to be aggressive. If an opponent experiences this build a few times, they could just go kinda fast 3CC - no turrets, just 1 scan to kill the banshee and be way ahead in economy. However no-one would be crazy enough to do that after seeing such an early tech lab and fearing a weird marauder/bio rush Also seeing no early expand so fearing 1-base attack. Cool to see a unique build order that screws with the opponents head whilst countering all the crazy early reaper, hellion and banshee aggression that is so common. Very cool playstyle. | ||
PiGStarcraft
Australia984 Posts
On October 27 2016 16:09 Cascade wrote: Wait, is that What if? and ICYFAR at the same time? :o woah mistitled VoD - dunno how that happend ty! | ||
Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On October 29 2016 07:26 PiGStarcraft wrote: woah mistitled VoD - dunno how that happend ty! Aawww.. ![]() Can you combine them though?? Either have pros do an icyfar, or have done icyfar submitters go "what if". ![]() Actually, would it be meaningful to do what if at lower level as education for us noobs? It'd be essentially like coaching I guess... | ||
PiGStarcraft
Australia984 Posts
On October 30 2016 08:14 Cascade wrote: Aawww.. ![]() Can you combine them though?? Either have pros do an icyfar, or have done icyfar submitters go "what if". ![]() Actually, would it be meaningful to do what if at lower level as education for us noobs? It'd be essentially like coaching I guess... Yeah that sounds a lot like coaching, I'm going to put up more VoDs of coaching in future whenever i do a widely applicable! I think the regular What Ifs? are more about showing the method of finding errors and making adjustments that pros do as well as discussing the details of the matchup. ICYFAR + What If? does sound amazing though haha. Might be a bit complicated though ![]() ![]() | ||
PiGStarcraft
Australia984 Posts
Show Notes: + Show Spoiler + 2-rax reaper FE Lowground wall-off (true beating polts 3-rax reaper with ling counters THIS WHY YOU WALL OFF THE LOWGROUND The reapers need to keep trading, they won’t lose a fight vs the lings, but they can’t waste time chasing them around the map or the zerg can drone up freely OR commit to a huge all-in and there’s no way to know which it is. Combined risk of dying to an all-in Falling behind Sniping larva/eggs with the grenades is great Dark actually could have defended this but doesn’t necessarily realise it’s not 3-rax reaper yet and is paranoid about losing queens Pressure opening - not as committed as 3-rax Very strong if they commit to pool-first and ravagers Fast tankivac followup whilst taking a very fast 3rd AND well-timed upgrades Abuses the map The reaper pressure isn’t as strong here when not proxied because the reapers take a long time to get across. However you still have a window to abuse the ramp area. Narrow area to 3rd where reapers can jump up or down easily True Frontal push to force good trades straight away Rotate to a new angle where they aren’t prepared Create a DIFFICULT situation for them to deal with Poke forward with a small group to apply pressure Split drops into other bases whilst they try to bring everything together and position a flank to deal with the front Dark Goes for ling speed AND 4xravagers - that’s a huge investment. Even against 3-rax most zergs will commit fully to just the ravagers and cancel the ling speed. Occasionally we see a crazy player like True just mass lings with extra queens and look for counterattacks and surroundsx Summary: Reapers try to force an over-reaction whilst having the opportunity to do good damage vs any mistakes Pairs beautifully with the follow-up tankivac pressure Seen it bouncing around queens as they try to close with the tankivacs a few times Great way to put Dark off balance for the rest of the series - following that game Dark constantly had to be on alert for reapers but would always be unsure of how much Byun was committing to them | ||
PiGStarcraft
Australia984 Posts
Show Notes + Show Spoiler + Safest opening of all time Nice adjustment to go for fast 8 lings on this small map to try and catch reaper/kill marines/kill scvs/mules Scouts cloaked banshees and goes lair instantly - overseers are the only way to fully shut down the banshees Gives a nice segway into very fast hive Delays upgrades a little but Terran will have even more delayed upgrades off this opening always. So the 4:50 2xevo is actually SUPER quick considering the situation. 5:05 WTF SPOTS CLOAKED BANSHEE 4-gas as you don’t really need that much gas - no infestors and no spire! - but you 100% need lots of hatcheries, queens and a 4th base for mining + production 70 drones might sound like a regular number, but since he’s only on 4-gas that’s actually only 12 drones mining gas as opposed to 18. 58 mineral drones vs 52 PLUS the 3 drone cost for making the extractors! (2 drones + 2x25 gas) So 58 vs 49 mineral drones for the same investment - about 450/minerals minute (18 lings/minute) + the extra 1200/1200 or 550/750 you’d spend on mutas/corruptors or infestors Meatier army to roll over any over-extension from Terran - more lings = more surround, less micro opportunity, easier to drag mine shots away from banes and easier to flank + counter. But also it says “hey, Ultras will be here soon - you need to come attack me now, you can’t wait till 200 supply 2/2 or you’ll die to ultras! 7:30 - FIRST PERSON VIEW FOR FEW MINUTES Baneling drop Patient defence and re-spread of creep. Attempted counter but doesn’t overcommit - still buys time Abandons 4th - is mega patient and slowly adds in all the tools to perfect his maxxed out army. Uses creep as a defensive tool - never risks going off it where Byuns insane micro will find value Creates an impossible situation for Terran Ultras? Add liberators! Vipers? It’s ok, more liberators! Corruptors + Vipers? Shit I need ghosts ^ That’s the point Dark found - rather than wait for broodlords and the perfect army he engaged at the perfect point well before Byun could head for any ghost tech and crushed it. Summary Little 8 ling pressure at the start Super hard reaction to banshees to shut them down Techs very hard with very fast upgrades Stays on 4-gas and cuts out the “unessecary” bonus units like mutas/corruptors/infestors Uses creep as a defensive tool and refuses to fight off it. Patiently adds in all the extra tools as needed until he finds the moment where Terran can’t keep up with the proper unit counters How do you deal with liberators if you don’t have a spire? You ignore them your ling-bane is too small so they do massive overkill and the fights are so fast they don’t have time to dish out damage to pay for themselves. If they come right into your creep, queens and MAYBE spores if they’re building heappsss | ||
PiGStarcraft
Australia984 Posts
Show Notes + Show Spoiler + Quick overview for this game http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/516174-interview-byun-it-was-by-far-the-best-day-of-my-career Q: On Frozen Temple you used your reapers to delay the ravager push. Was that something you’ve practiced specifically? A: I’m the creator of that triple rax reaper strat. Others may say something else, but I made that build. And I made it so that it can be as versatile as it can possibly be. I’ve never lost defending against any sort of pushes or any types of composition using that build, it’s the most confident build that I have. I never really thought I was going to lose, but you know, Dark is Dark—he’s the other guy who made it to the BlizzCon Finals. He had a lot more units than anyone else that I’ve met, but luckily my stimpak was done. It was mostly down to the build I created though. If the attack failed, then there was a Plan B, a Plan C, so I was confident enough. Byun’s 3-rax reaper is incredibly powerful on this map Dark does a ravager-ling all-in to try and counter it. This attack will either overwhelm or fall flat. It will rarely trade well enough to transition into a standard game. This map is one of the few places it can work because there’s no ramp on the natural = no need for highground vision However the middle canyon makes it hard. Byun choosing to go only a single expo straight into 3-rax double medivac meant his stim was in time to stop it. Buying time and sniping a ravager was still key Vs 3CC Dark probably NEVER loses in practice | ||
PiGStarcraft
Australia984 Posts
Show Notes + Show Spoiler + Byun shows his reaper going across the map, then doubles back out of vision to check for lings trying to deny CC Dark doesn’t even go for it in any of the games Why don’t the helions morph to hellbats?? It’s been spotted Lost 1 reaper Normally you try to use both reapers to bounce the queens INTO the hellbats so they can’t just kite endlessly 4:20 - the lings clumping is the biggest mistake - too eager to stop the helions in their tracks, stop them getting through the choke past the queens etc. Needed to just spread them more before engaging - even if he lets the helions get a free volley on the drones first The helions in the main realise they can get more done by wasting mining time and distracting so they try to stay alive rather than diving for more kills - distracts and gives the opportunity to get 7 more drones on the 3rd From here it’s just Dark desperately trying to do EVERYTHING perfectly to get back in the game Playing from behind Focus hard on a few areas in the game, ignore other areas that aren’t 100% always necessary. Skipping some of those areas might be a risk - but you need to take risks to get back in the game. If you try to do everything as normal, you’ll just be behind in everything. Dark focuses just on lings, banes, upgrades and a strong mineral income. Only puts back on 1 gas at first, saturating the other gas in the main as he’s getting closer to saturation again. Fast 4th base Creep In LoTV ultras are so tempting that players usually try to use them as the comeback tool. However since they’re so far away, I actually wish Dark tried to stay on just 3 gas and win with ONLY ling-bane. He knows he’ll be behind in the engagements, and I think having more lings for the engages and counterattacks and looking to get back in the game through a nice engagement or two could have a better chance of getting him back in this. It’s still not like “wow this will just make you win” But it might take Dark’s chances from 20% up to 30% Puts more pressure on Byun - more chance of him making the mistakes. The counterattacks were too small to be effective this game - they never really forced byun to leave a big contingent at home or seriously disrupt his flow Byun has no info on whether you’re trying that or not First person Dark view from when the pressures really start ~7-10 Byun’s single ANTI COUNTER mine saves him so many times - something every terran should consider doing vs zergs that counterattack a lot | ||
PiGStarcraft
Australia984 Posts
Show Notes + Show Spoiler + Byun’s 2-1-1 into double tankivac marine +1 push - Standard 2-1-1 Only gets 1 queen and a small creep delay - Dark is well prepared 6:00 3rd CC Super late Forgets to add his +2 armour for a long time - 90 second delay Darks super standard safe play Same opening as all series - mega safe Gas pool hatch 2 off gas @ ovie speed Back on gas 3:50 7:00 - Sick little baneling flank hidden in the empty 4th base almost catches the marines you really need a nerchio-surround against a player of Byun’s caliber. Right at this moment pre-bane-speed the marines are so daunting for the lings to engage, and the tanks don’t let the banes close in, it’s a tough spot where a better surrround and almost pure ling with just a few banes peppered in is probably ideal. This would have been the perfect response vs anyone else - but ended up being quite a bad trade for Dark 4th base and macro hatch potentially could start a bit sooner - struggles for larva during the assauly Greedy extra 3 drones Darks play from behind 7:30 - super uncomfrotable position - already losing mining on his natural, counter attack is blocked. Forced into pretty bad trades Expands away from Byuns push out of necessity despite the problematic cliffs nearby Had to pull every single queen Never gets 3-3 Realises that an answer to the libs is far more valuable usage of his limited gas Incredible multi-tasking 10:00 onwards first person view from Dark - the most godlike defence ever The whole intense period where he avoids libs, moves spores, focuses them with queens while microing 2 battles is INSANE 14:00 - SICK LING SURROUND - revenge of the Winner mine gets 19 ling kills 16:55 - focus-fires baneling flank in the middle of a huge fight - insanee DROPS A CREEP TUMOR IN THE MIDDLE OF A FIGHT LOL - his multi-tasking instincts take over - he knows how spent all his actions are and has to get the most out of every moment, rather than look back he throws it in at the end of a sequence of micro actions - super cute Constantly goes in - forces stim + sniping medivacs every engage so the bio steadily gets worn down simplly by the way Dark constantly feints engages Also taxes Byuns APM and disrupts his rhythm Terran bio is incredibly sensitive especially against the explosive lingbane - can’t afford to ignore these feints or the real one will kill him Dark’s ability to expand to an awkward area of the map and then defend 4 locations at once consistently for several minutes forced Byun to focus on the frontal engagements - Dark was just as good in those, and showed exceptional skill expanding constantly in the midst of the chaos. The constant feinting to force stims and sniping of the valuable air units whittled Byun down Hitting Byun’s exposed orbital commands on his 5th in the lategame is what ended up pushing the scales his way. Perhaps Byun taking a 5th CC as a planetary could have allowed him to win Potentially adding ghosts also. Remember that Dark never got 3-3 and was always one bad engagement away from having no answer to the liberators | ||
PiGStarcraft
Australia984 Posts
Show Notes + Show Spoiler + THE ONE GAME WHERE DARK GOES HATCH FIRST - and Byun takes a ballsy gamble, hoping it’s not cross-spawns.\ Gets the fastest possible rush distance (⅓ chance) Talk through pressure from Byuns side Dark takes a little more damage than he should Byuns micro is godlike but a little luck like hitting the lings the moment they pop from the eggs into the reapers etc Great pulling back of weak reapers Always keeps some reapers on cooldown Talk through response and mistakes from Darks side Dark tries to do the True style mass ling defence with a few extra queens - However: He forgets to pull off gas - you only want that gas if you’re going all-in with ling-bane in response He gets supply blocked on 36 - can’t capitalise on the moment ling speed kicks in to surround and shut down the reapers As the reaper count grows it gets harder and harder Getting out of his choke is super difficult Goes 2-base evo chambers which reeks of desperation 3-rax reaper gets him way ahead Dark scouts the late 3rd rax and should know this is a 3-rax reaper. The rax is far too late too late to be the first or 2nd rax off a CC-first This is a game that flows on from the previous one - Dark expended so much energy to survive the previous game Some small yet fatal errors in this most intense moment, tired and drained and under the pressure of Byun’s most intense aggression - on the map where he really didn’t expect it Byun rotates between frontal pushes and drops + multiprong constantly making it impossible for Dark to have the units in the correct place. Dark can’t get map control cos the army is right outside He can’t see when the army splits into many drops and has to react last second and TRY to micro + split correctly with no warning Byun does make some small mistakes but the pressure is on Dark and ultimately he takes way more drastic drone/mining losses and bad trades than the few good defences he can pull off Defeat and Victory https://youtu.be/c2IlcS7AHxM?t=6042 | ||
PiGStarcraft
Australia984 Posts
Show Notes + Show Spoiler + Hop straight into game while You intro. Really cool unique style Showtime showed vs Byun in the ro16 Blizzcon This build looks a lot like the generic macro fast colossus openings that Stats and Zest have been using a lot But from there it becomes quite different Rather than transitioning into storm to counter vikings and help survive then tempests to counter range liberators - Showtime adds disruptors to have EVERY TYPE OF AOE and then controls the map, counter-attacks a lot and finds a way to play a much more ASSERTIVE style of PvT Earlygame: Probe scout waits to see if it’s a reaper or marine out of the barracks 1:45 marine pops Robo-twilight-3g Gases on natural as close to saturation Colossus bay 3rd base Very defensive pylon setup Lots of observers to spot drops Gas on 3rd base delayed a long time because 3rd is very late for byun - needs to make more adepts to ensure he survives More gates Glaives Double forge Templar archives After 3-4 collosi into disruptors DT tech a little later Then finally storm tech Why this did Showtime use this style? We saw in many games that Terran players would try to hit a viking + bio timing to kill colossus players and most of the game was decided by this attack. With Showtime’s style he adds the huge power of the disruptors so early into his composition it makes it even harder for Terran to engage. 12:30 - Watch how Showtime zones out the bio with the disruptor balls whilst blinking forward to snipe vikings with his stalkers. This makes it SUPER hard for Terran to force an engage Normally Terran likes to poke with the vikings superior range and force the Protoss to engage into him, but Showtime just seems to be able to buy a little bit more space for his stalkers to come forward and hit the vikings. Control 5 - main army + collosus Ctrl + click to pull back/focus-fire 6 - templar 7 - disruptors Very important to have these spellcasters on separate hotkeys to manually control them very quickly Storm is mostly for smashing the vikings and defending drops DTs and adept warpins offer super powerful counter-attack options DTs offer great drop defence and are the trump card in a basetrade Disruptors give you AOE that can’t be countered by the vikings - helps you survive hard viking timings Transition? There’s nothing stopping you from going for very delayed tempests behind this and playing it out as standard - kiting with tempests and using spread out templar to storm all over them whenever they try to close the distance with the tempests OR you can really focus on winning at this stage of the game through getting a super high gateway count. 15-20 gateways for huge reinforce Massive reinforce of units during the big fight to overwhelm with sheer numbers Massive counter-attack warp-ins Can’t wait to see this play out to a later midgame/lategame. Fingers crossed to see Showtime vs Maru or TY at the WESG main event! | ||
Probe1
United States17920 Posts
Thanks man. | ||
PiGStarcraft
Australia984 Posts
On November 21 2016 17:01 Probe1 wrote: Really appreciate the straight from the cuff notes. I don't have time to watch now. But I do have time to glance over the notes, start thinking about what the video is about, and then when I do watch it I'm listening more closely and following instead of hearing it for a first time. Thanks man. np mate, it's just an exact copy paste of the notes I write up beforehand when prepping and then glance at every now and then while doing the show - figure it's helpful for some people so easy habit to just always share those | ||
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