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On January 06 2014 03:22 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2014 03:18 BlackMagister wrote:On January 06 2014 02:16 Forikorder wrote:On January 06 2014 01:42 BlackMagister wrote:On January 05 2014 13:50 Forikorder wrote:On January 05 2014 09:23 BlackMagister wrote:
You can hit Logia users with physical attacks if they aren't paying attention. They have to train themselves in order to become elemental to dodge attacks. The surprise attack by Luffy onto Smoker+Ace would be a good example though people debated it because of the rule of funny like how Nami can beat up Luffy. Logias can turn off their ability as seeen Caribou when he jumped onto the Sunny let himself get beat up to hide his Logia ability which I think proves you do need to turn the ability on as I'm guessing using your DF uses some stamina. Monet was injured and not ready for Caesars attack so she didn't turn on her snow ability. then how come Zoro missed Monet? she was so freaked out that she couldnt even put herself back to together, she was so convinced that Zoro was 100% going to cut her that even after she realised she was still alive she was unable to really do anything you expect me to believe she managed to dodge the attack despite all that? imo Monet got stabbed because Law had seperated the heart from her body, it was under his domain so she couldnt control it, same reason smoker didnt jsut turn his heart into smoke and have it fly back or why Caeser never did Law's ability might negate DF power in separated parts, but the heart is still connected to the rest of the body pumping blood and Kinnemon showed individual parts can still move. For Monet when she was fighting Zoro it could be easier to simply turn elemental than it is to reform the body. None of us know the trigger for turning elemental it could be thinking about turning elemental, a certain emotion, tensing your muscles or all of these ways and more. It seem possible that she used her power even though she was paralyzed with fear out of a fear response, but couldn't do something more complicated like reforming her cut body. so your saying changing into elemental form is jsut an instinctual response that just happens automatically, jsut like ive been saying I thought you were arguing that logia are elemental all the time since my original post was arguing that it needs to be a reflex that is trained and I would consider instinct a form of reflex. If the logia user is hit by a surprise attack even without haki the attack will hit. Hence even if Monet could use her DF power on her heart when it was separated by Law's ability she wouldn't know to do it to stop Caesar's attack. instinct isnt a form of reflex, instionct is something you simply jsut know how to do like breathing or how to work your muscles or move your eyes its not something you learn or train its something that simply happens and yes i do believe that after eating a logia there always made of there element like how luffy is always made of rubber or how Mr.1 is always made of metal theres no turning it off and on the fruit rebuilds there body as that element
How does Crocodile take a a bath then.
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Gotta actually agree with Fori this time that the state of of logias being invulnerable to non haki attacks just comes with them eating the fruit and isn't something they actually had to train for.
I know it's a weak argument but the scene with Luffy Ace and Smoker, I always regarded as a comic relieve scene and since it was in the early stages of the manga (first 100 ish chapters irrc) Oda probably didn't know which direction he wanted to take with Devil Fruit classifications and Haki.
As for crocodile why would he not be able to just bath like any other devil fruit user, he'd be severely weakened while taking it but although water is his weakness it's not like he falls apart when he comes in contact with it. It just stops him from becoming intangible (which would be the case for every logia user taking a bath.)
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On January 06 2014 03:22 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2014 03:18 BlackMagister wrote:On January 06 2014 02:16 Forikorder wrote:On January 06 2014 01:42 BlackMagister wrote:On January 05 2014 13:50 Forikorder wrote:On January 05 2014 09:23 BlackMagister wrote:
You can hit Logia users with physical attacks if they aren't paying attention. They have to train themselves in order to become elemental to dodge attacks. The surprise attack by Luffy onto Smoker+Ace would be a good example though people debated it because of the rule of funny like how Nami can beat up Luffy. Logias can turn off their ability as seeen Caribou when he jumped onto the Sunny let himself get beat up to hide his Logia ability which I think proves you do need to turn the ability on as I'm guessing using your DF uses some stamina. Monet was injured and not ready for Caesars attack so she didn't turn on her snow ability. then how come Zoro missed Monet? she was so freaked out that she couldnt even put herself back to together, she was so convinced that Zoro was 100% going to cut her that even after she realised she was still alive she was unable to really do anything you expect me to believe she managed to dodge the attack despite all that? imo Monet got stabbed because Law had seperated the heart from her body, it was under his domain so she couldnt control it, same reason smoker didnt jsut turn his heart into smoke and have it fly back or why Caeser never did Law's ability might negate DF power in separated parts, but the heart is still connected to the rest of the body pumping blood and Kinnemon showed individual parts can still move. For Monet when she was fighting Zoro it could be easier to simply turn elemental than it is to reform the body. None of us know the trigger for turning elemental it could be thinking about turning elemental, a certain emotion, tensing your muscles or all of these ways and more. It seem possible that she used her power even though she was paralyzed with fear out of a fear response, but couldn't do something more complicated like reforming her cut body. so your saying changing into elemental form is jsut an instinctual response that just happens automatically, jsut like ive been saying I thought you were arguing that logia are elemental all the time since my original post was arguing that it needs to be a reflex that is trained and I would consider instinct a form of reflex. If the logia user is hit by a surprise attack even without haki the attack will hit. Hence even if Monet could use her DF power on her heart when it was separated by Law's ability she wouldn't know to do it to stop Caesar's attack. instinct isnt a form of reflex, instionct is something you simply jsut know how to do like breathing or how to work your muscles or move your eyes its not something you learn or train its something that simply happens and yes i do believe that after eating a logia there always made of there element like how luffy is always made of rubber or how Mr.1 is always made of metal theres no turning it off and on the fruit rebuilds there body as that element
Ok the use of instinct still throws me off because if they are always elemental it would require thought to turn solid and hold objects. Being elemental would simply be the state they are in, you wouldn't say it's human instinct to exist or be solid.
The way logia users works is funky because Oda deliberately made it not consistent because their powers don't damage their clothes and can be turned elemental as well so they wouldn't be naked, even body parts that are attached count with Monet. So you can't draw any conclusions by Ace's clothes not burning which they would if he were always elemental without the exemption Oda made.
You are free to believe logias are always elemental the world could still work either way. It would just change the training involved and viability of sneak attacks. When Ace sleeps does he burn beds? Could Ace have been killed when he was sleeping on Buggy's ship? I suppose they could train to be solid even when asleep, but then that would mean they could be killed because they fell asleep solid. Though if they require thought to turn elemental like I think they could fall asleep without training because being solid is their normal state.
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On January 06 2014 03:22 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2014 03:18 BlackMagister wrote:On January 06 2014 02:16 Forikorder wrote:On January 06 2014 01:42 BlackMagister wrote:On January 05 2014 13:50 Forikorder wrote:On January 05 2014 09:23 BlackMagister wrote:
You can hit Logia users with physical attacks if they aren't paying attention. They have to train themselves in order to become elemental to dodge attacks. The surprise attack by Luffy onto Smoker+Ace would be a good example though people debated it because of the rule of funny like how Nami can beat up Luffy. Logias can turn off their ability as seeen Caribou when he jumped onto the Sunny let himself get beat up to hide his Logia ability which I think proves you do need to turn the ability on as I'm guessing using your DF uses some stamina. Monet was injured and not ready for Caesars attack so she didn't turn on her snow ability. then how come Zoro missed Monet? she was so freaked out that she couldnt even put herself back to together, she was so convinced that Zoro was 100% going to cut her that even after she realised she was still alive she was unable to really do anything you expect me to believe she managed to dodge the attack despite all that? imo Monet got stabbed because Law had seperated the heart from her body, it was under his domain so she couldnt control it, same reason smoker didnt jsut turn his heart into smoke and have it fly back or why Caeser never did Law's ability might negate DF power in separated parts, but the heart is still connected to the rest of the body pumping blood and Kinnemon showed individual parts can still move. For Monet when she was fighting Zoro it could be easier to simply turn elemental than it is to reform the body. None of us know the trigger for turning elemental it could be thinking about turning elemental, a certain emotion, tensing your muscles or all of these ways and more. It seem possible that she used her power even though she was paralyzed with fear out of a fear response, but couldn't do something more complicated like reforming her cut body. so your saying changing into elemental form is jsut an instinctual response that just happens automatically, jsut like ive been saying I thought you were arguing that logia are elemental all the time since my original post was arguing that it needs to be a reflex that is trained and I would consider instinct a form of reflex. If the logia user is hit by a surprise attack even without haki the attack will hit. Hence even if Monet could use her DF power on her heart when it was separated by Law's ability she wouldn't know to do it to stop Caesar's attack. instinct isnt a form of reflex, instionct is something you simply jsut know how to do like breathing or how to work your muscles or move your eyes its not something you learn or train its something that simply happens
While instincts aren't reflexes, reflexes can be instinctual. Coughing is a form of reflex that's also an instinct, for example.
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How does Crocodile take a a bath then.
in a very secure room
Ok the use of instinct still throws me off because if they are always elemental it would require thought to turn solid and hold objects. Being elemental would simply be the state they are in, you wouldn't say it's human instinct to exist or be solid.
remember that Ace had trouble stitching the huge giant dudes hat because his first 2 attempts went upo in flames, he even got ridiculed by the crew for trying to stitch straw while being made of fire
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Its probably the reverse then, they have to concentrate on materializing into their non-element form. The clothes issues is just for convenience.
The bath issue is fine, I mean they can be in a certain level of water before they start to feel weak (like knee deep) so they can easily bathe in that much water.
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What with all these new posts I was hoping for a new chapter.
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Watched the newest filler episode that came out today 8/10 would recommend. Luffy was especially cool in it.
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Isn't it more possible that Logia users exists in 2 states. Their physical form as a person and their "elemental form" simulatenously. The elemental form is somewhat "magical" anyway so you can't really say it is impossible in that universe.
Haki would just disable/break the elemental form (as I recall being stated) or ki to cause damage to the Logia user as he is only left with his physical form with "ki" disrupted. How is Ha in haki written? I just realized this now but if the net translation is right for ha in japanese, it could mean break or in Haki, break/destroy "ki"/"energy"
I would argue that the logia element is a "ki" type thing and is an expression of what is inate in each individual. Hence why when they eat it, they already are in that elemental state. And training allows you to control your "ki" or elemental form better and more proficiently.
Saw the translation here. http://www.jp41.com/kanji/ha.html
The 6th character down the page.
As to why Monet was killed with the heart stabbing eventhough she is technically a logia. Law's DF power is quite unique in the sense that he can rearrange a whole person or just leave the head separate from the body. What happens though when the brain is separated from the head itself, I have no idea.
But perhaps the reason why Money died is because her Logia form/ ki couldn't reach that distance/range to even be able to "connect" as it were to its elemental form/state. The example being how far Law's Room range is or Buggy's power can activate away from his feet on the ground.
This is just my speculation.
I can't really agree with instinct because how can being a new elemental state be instinctual if you weren't in that state to begin with from your birth. But at least with the logia being ki related and this having asian influences, at least that gives it more benefit of the doubt as they believe ki exists in everyone but not everyone can harness it properly or it is harnessed differently (Dragonball, heck Hunter X hunter has a lot of ways to show harnessing ki.) =)
Hence why all physical attacks are useless to all Logia's regardless of training or how elite they are, unless they are imbued with Haki.
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It's just that Caesar can use Haki and used it because Smoker is a logia anyway. The sea-stone handcuffs wouldn't have prevented him from using Haki, since they negate DF power only.
/discussion
(yes i'm trolling)
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On January 06 2014 03:50 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2014 03:22 Forikorder wrote:On January 06 2014 03:18 BlackMagister wrote:On January 06 2014 02:16 Forikorder wrote:On January 06 2014 01:42 BlackMagister wrote:On January 05 2014 13:50 Forikorder wrote:On January 05 2014 09:23 BlackMagister wrote:
You can hit Logia users with physical attacks if they aren't paying attention. They have to train themselves in order to become elemental to dodge attacks. The surprise attack by Luffy onto Smoker+Ace would be a good example though people debated it because of the rule of funny like how Nami can beat up Luffy. Logias can turn off their ability as seeen Caribou when he jumped onto the Sunny let himself get beat up to hide his Logia ability which I think proves you do need to turn the ability on as I'm guessing using your DF uses some stamina. Monet was injured and not ready for Caesars attack so she didn't turn on her snow ability. then how come Zoro missed Monet? she was so freaked out that she couldnt even put herself back to together, she was so convinced that Zoro was 100% going to cut her that even after she realised she was still alive she was unable to really do anything you expect me to believe she managed to dodge the attack despite all that? imo Monet got stabbed because Law had seperated the heart from her body, it was under his domain so she couldnt control it, same reason smoker didnt jsut turn his heart into smoke and have it fly back or why Caeser never did Law's ability might negate DF power in separated parts, but the heart is still connected to the rest of the body pumping blood and Kinnemon showed individual parts can still move. For Monet when she was fighting Zoro it could be easier to simply turn elemental than it is to reform the body. None of us know the trigger for turning elemental it could be thinking about turning elemental, a certain emotion, tensing your muscles or all of these ways and more. It seem possible that she used her power even though she was paralyzed with fear out of a fear response, but couldn't do something more complicated like reforming her cut body. so your saying changing into elemental form is jsut an instinctual response that just happens automatically, jsut like ive been saying I thought you were arguing that logia are elemental all the time since my original post was arguing that it needs to be a reflex that is trained and I would consider instinct a form of reflex. If the logia user is hit by a surprise attack even without haki the attack will hit. Hence even if Monet could use her DF power on her heart when it was separated by Law's ability she wouldn't know to do it to stop Caesar's attack. instinct isnt a form of reflex, instionct is something you simply jsut know how to do like breathing or how to work your muscles or move your eyes its not something you learn or train its something that simply happens and yes i do believe that after eating a logia there always made of there element like how luffy is always made of rubber or how Mr.1 is always made of metal theres no turning it off and on the fruit rebuilds there body as that element How does Crocodile take a a bath then.
He takes a bath in sand! EL OH EL!
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On January 06 2014 12:35 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +
Ok the use of instinct still throws me off because if they are always elemental it would require thought to turn solid and hold objects. Being elemental would simply be the state they are in, you wouldn't say it's human instinct to exist or be solid.
remember that Ace had trouble stitching the huge giant dudes hat because his first 2 attempts went upo in flames, he even got ridiculed by the crew for trying to stitch straw while being made of fire
Ok that's something then.
Crocodile and bathing has already been addressed by Oda and was talked about a few pages back.
http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/SBS_Volume_41#Chapter_398.2C_Page_206
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On Haki in Japanese: Haki in Japanese is written as 覇気, literally translated as ambition. The first kanji is the 11th one on the page Sphinx linked, meaning leadership or supremacy. It does not, however, carry the meaning of breaking. The second kanji can possibly refer to what westerners refer to as "Ki" or "Chi".
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To be honest I never even considered that Logia users could be elemental all the time right after eating a fruit.
Kind of because I assumed like other devil fruits it takes time to get used to the powers.
If being elemental was their natural state and being solid was an effort, then wouldn't at least 1 of the logia users run around half transformed or fully transformed casually?
Anyway, I figured that after eating a logia fruit they would sometimes accidentally use their power(like Ace creating fire) just as other new fruit users have shown to accidentally use their powers(Kaku/giraffe man accidentally made his arms and legs longer instead of his neck).
I find it much more likely that turning into element form for defense is something logia users have to train, like other people train to evade or block attacks. And then in battle they can turn into element form by reflex, just as normal people would jump out of the way by reflex.
That would for example explain how Enel and Admirals just turn very little of their body into element form and a scrub like Smoker in Logue Town/Alabasta nearly turns his whole body to smoke for every single occasion.
Also so far in the series only paramecia fruits were shown to have passive effects, like Luffy turning instantly to gum, Buggy claiming that he simply cannot be cut thanks to his fruit, Alvida's fruit giving her a very smooth skin and Brooks fruit giving him a second life.
Completely unrelated, don't the Strawhats currently have lots of treasure from Fishman Island?
They will probably soon buy something expensive or lose the money, then. Last time they had lots of money was on Water 7 and they bought the Sunny with it. That was the only time they had lots of money in the Grand Line, from Skypiea until Water 7. Before that Nami collected 100 million Beli but didn't keep the money when leaving her home island.
Having lots of money is something the Strawhats just don't do, apparently.
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Completely unrelated, don't the Strawhats currently have lots of treasure from Fishman Island?
They will probably soon buy something expensive or lose the money, then. Last time they had lots of money was on Water 7 and they bought the Sunny with it. That was the only time they had lots of money in the Grand Line, from Skypiea until Water 7. Before that Nami collected 100 million Beli but didn't keep the money when leaving her home island.
Having lots of money is something the Strawhats just don't do, apparently.
they gave it to big mam
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On January 07 2014 10:54 Mataza wrote:
Completely unrelated, don't the Strawhats currently have lots of treasure from Fishman Island?
They will probably soon buy something expensive or lose the money, then. Last time they had lots of money was on Water 7 and they bought the Sunny with it. That was the only time they had lots of money in the Grand Line, from Skypiea until Water 7. Before that Nami collected 100 million Beli but didn't keep the money when leaving her home island.
Having lots of money is something the Strawhats just don't do, apparently.
The money from Fishman Island was given to Big Mam. Nami's money was taken away by the marines who were helping Arlong way back in the beginning.
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On January 07 2014 11:14 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2014 10:54 Mataza wrote:
Completely unrelated, don't the Strawhats currently have lots of treasure from Fishman Island?
They will probably soon buy something expensive or lose the money, then. Last time they had lots of money was on Water 7 and they bought the Sunny with it. That was the only time they had lots of money in the Grand Line, from Skypiea until Water 7. Before that Nami collected 100 million Beli but didn't keep the money when leaving her home island.
Having lots of money is something the Strawhats just don't do, apparently. The money from Fishman Island was given to Big Mam. Nami's money was taken away by the marines who were helping Arlong way back in the beginning.
IIRC they got Nami's money back, and she left it with her village.
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I think they only have the treasure they got from Thriller Bark (about 200 mill).
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On January 07 2014 08:22 BlackMagister wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2014 12:35 Forikorder wrote:
Ok the use of instinct still throws me off because if they are always elemental it would require thought to turn solid and hold objects. Being elemental would simply be the state they are in, you wouldn't say it's human instinct to exist or be solid.
remember that Ace had trouble stitching the huge giant dudes hat because his first 2 attempts went upo in flames, he even got ridiculed by the crew for trying to stitch straw while being made of fire Ok that's something then. Crocodile and bathing has already been addressed by Oda and was talked about a few pages back. http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/SBS_Volume_41#Chapter_398.2C_Page_206
That's a very good link because it explains how Crocodile's weakness is "water" whereas the devil fruit's weakness is the "sea". There's a difference. It explained why Luffy was able to to fight crocodile with water without being weakened himself. Excellent, excellent.
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EPT
