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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 07 2015 00:37 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 00:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 07 2015 00:33 Yoav wrote:On May 06 2015 23:51 KwarK wrote:On May 06 2015 23:42 Yoav wrote:On May 06 2015 23:38 ZasZ. wrote:On May 06 2015 23:23 Yoav wrote:On May 06 2015 18:19 zatic wrote:On May 06 2015 17:48 -Archangel- wrote:
I don't think Tommen gets it, he is officially a Baratheon, not Lannister. Oh, right. So it's Kevan right now and unless there are other sons of his we don't know about after him it looks grim for the Lannister line of succession. Yeah, I mean, I'm still a little confused by the way royal families work in this universe. Any real family can keep backing up generations to find more relatives, even if they have a different family name. Sometimes, as when the British had disqualified Catholic succession, you can jump to somebody who was 50-something on the list. But, barring bad bookkeeping, you should always be able to find someone. I'm sure they'd be able to find someone but when you go that deep on the succession list the claims get weaker and weaker and there are more and more people in a similar position as you. Even in the most stable systems this causes conflict and Westeros is anything but stable. Letting succession fall that far down the line is a surefire way to get another war in this universe. Fair enough, but it's just odd to me that everyone's treating Sansa like she's the "last Stark" when surely there are dozens of them running around somewhere. In the months before Robert's Rebellion the Starks went through a bit of a purging. Ned's father and brother were burned alive, his sister was abducted and died, his other brother ended up on the wall (we don't know the context behind that). Robb has no cousins on the Stark side that we know of, we'd have to go to second or third cousins. His closest relatives were the Tully's where he had first cousins. I guess the Stark question specifically can be explained by saying they lost a lot in the two wars and the associated murders. Any distant cousins probably keeping their head down for now while, and are basically irrelevant now that actual Stark kids are turning up. Yeah if there are some Starks running around I doubt they are bragging about it until this whole thing settles out. Or at least until Sansa gives them something to fight for. The North remembers.
That's not a problem to find someone's with Stark's blood, the real issue is to prove they have it. U can't simply tell that someone's somewhen in your family had Stark mom/dad and sit as Winterfells lord. Starks had a friendship with Baratheons/Arrens and had Tully's as cousins. I doubt other lands had that big connections with North somehow.
Karstarks are the other branch of Starks, so theoretically they fits, Rob made a huge mistake when beheaded Rikard Karstark tho.
On May 06 2015 06:55 Yoav wrote:
Hound sipping martinis with Gendry, Syrio Forel, and that dude who had to piss during the Red Wedding.
Btw, the guy who left to piss was Brinden "The black fish" Tully, i'd say he's the same tier as Barristan Selmy in terms of skills, but probably a bit smarter, too bad we don't see him  he's not that badass as Bronn, but not that "correct" as Ser Davos, something inbetween of those two.
And btw, I think Selisa were right about Jon Snow, he was exactly that type of son, that Stannis wants, but could never have. Jon is faithful to the oath, and doing everything by the law, even beheading Yanos Slint was an idea of Stannis and Jon executed everything properly.
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On May 06 2015 04:09 Mafe wrote:
Also, should Tommen and Myrcella die, nobody should have any legitimate reason to dispute Stannis' claim to the throne (even though I don't see Cersei, Jaime, and maybe even the Tyrells accepting this at all)?!
Stannis next in line after Myrcella. Assuming Tommen and Myrcella are legitimate.
Normally, heritage has children before brothers and then uncles, Tyrion should have been the current Lannister top dog, but he is exiled, that means Cersei is in charge (Males only take priority over Females in the same generation, so Cersei comes before Tywin's Brother). Shall Cersei die, Castle Rock should go to Tommen, and so the Lannister heritage falls to Baratheon name.
But since relationships are good between Tommen and Tywin's Brother, Tommen might as well pass it to him.
The Sand Snakes should just make sure that Tommen produces no heirs, and Myrcella is next in line for both the Iron Throne and the Rock. Myrcella sons will have the last name Martell because Tyrion in season 2 shipped her to Dorne to marry the Martell heir.
Still claims are claims, if if legitimate, wars were fought for less.
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I just can't shake this feeling that this will be Bronn's last ride
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I do belive he has some kind of plot armor, since he's sparring partner of Jaime and Jaime is still relativly bad with his left hand.
Jaime's trainings should be in a secret and Bronn knows how to keep em.
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Bronn seems too good of a fighter, as well as being smart. Didnt he say before that he might be able to take on the mountain? and im pretty sure he would have done what obyern did (even tho ithink obyern was better than bronn because obyern was super confident and fight wise completely outclassed the mountain T_T obyern whyyyyyy)
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Yep, it was Bronn, he exactly described the strategy he could to win vs mountain, and the same strat was picked by Oberyn.
Considering Oberyns past I think he was like S+ fighter overall, while Bronn somewhere near S or A+
emotions killed the viper
just my personal tier list of fighters based in our show so far:
S+
+ Show Spoiler +Jaime (when he had both hands)
Oberyn
Jaqen Hagar (arguably, and I agree with Spaylz post)
S
+ Show Spoiler +The Mountain
Bronn
Ned Stark
Ser Baristan Selmy
Khal Drogo
Dario Naharis
Brienne
Grey Worm
A
+ Show Spoiler +Jon Snow
Ser Jorah Mormont
Ser Aliser Torne
Syrio Forel
The Hound
Ser Loras Tyrell
Berik Dondarrion
B
+ Show Spoiler +
probably i forgot someone 
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On May 07 2015 22:04 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Yep, it was Bronn, he exactly described the strategy he could to win vs mountain, and the same strat was picked by Oberyn. Considering Oberyns past I think he was like S+ fighter overall, while Bronn somewhere near S or A+ emotions killed the viper just my personal tier list of fighters based in our show so far: S+ Jaime (when he had both hands) Oberyn Jaqen Hagar S The Mountain Bronn Ned Stark Ser Baristan Selmy Khal Drogo Dario Naharis Brienne Grey Worm A Jon Snow Ser Jorah Mormont Ser Aliser Torne Syrio Forel The Hound Ser Loras Tyrell probably i forgot someone
I don't think Jaqen fits in there. He is not a fighter, he is an assassin. That means that 99% of the time, he'll resort to killing someone without having to actually fight them. He will poison them, shoot an arrow from afar (as he did with Amaury Loch in S2, when he was about to tell Tywin about Arya stealing the note), but he won't go out and duel them in single combat.
Don't get me wrong, Jaqen is truly scary. I simply would not count him as a fighter of any sort. He is a deceitful killer.
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On May 07 2015 22:09 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 22:04 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Yep, it was Bronn, he exactly described the strategy he could to win vs mountain, and the same strat was picked by Oberyn. Considering Oberyns past I think he was like S+ fighter overall, while Bronn somewhere near S or A+ emotions killed the viper just my personal tier list of fighters based in our show so far: S+ + Show Spoiler +Jaime (when he had both hands)
Oberyn
Jaqen Hagar (arguably, and I agree with Spaylz post)
S + Show Spoiler +The Mountain
Bronn
Ned Stark
Ser Baristan Selmy
Khal Drogo
Dario Naharis
Brienne
Grey Worm A + Show Spoiler +Jon Snow
Ser Jorah Mormont
Ser Aliser Torne
Syrio Forel
The Hound
Ser Loras Tyrell
Berik Dondarrion B + Show Spoiler +probably i forgot someone I don't think Jaqen fits in there. He is not a fighter, he is an assassin. That means that 99% of the time, he'll resort to killing someone without having to actually fight them. He will poison them, shoot an arrow from afar (as he did with Amaury Loch in S2, when he was about to tell Tywin about Arya stealing the note), but he won't go out and duel them in single combat. Don't get me wrong, Jaqen is truly scary. I simply would not count him as a fighter of any sort. He is a deceitful killer.
I get your point, sounds reasonable, so I made some edits.
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Not sure I would consider Grey worm that high. Or Syrio Forel that low.
Sure Grey worm is good but imo he is 'just' an above average unsullied. Not on equal terms with some of the best fighters in the realms. Syrio on the other hand is (was) the first sword of Bravos. That has to stand for something.
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Syrio was the first sword, it means someone else moved him away. And most likely he's dead, while Grey Worm might be still alive and survived in those slaugher while his mates are dead.
Although, if he's dead, I'll move him one step lower
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Difficult to make an absolute rating. Let's make diagrams with strength/speed/cunning/fighting experience/proficiency with each weapon and specific tool of the trade (horse, armor, dark humour, falling next to a handy sharp rock when disarmed). I still believe Loras Tyrel is S+ at getting people to fall from horses with a pointy stick and Oberyn is B when fighting in full plate in a swamp.
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Khal Drogo had the biggest Khalasar. To be at the very top of a huge group of people who only value strength is something else.
Also, Robert Baratheon at his prime.
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Please dont do the rating thing again.
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United States41944 Posts
Bran S++ because he can mind control nerds and rides Hodor into battle.
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On May 07 2015 22:04 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Yep, it was Bronn, he exactly described the strategy he could to win vs mountain, and the same strat was picked by Oberyn. Considering Oberyns past I think he was like S+ fighter overall, while Bronn somewhere near S or A+ emotions killed the viper just my personal tier list of fighters based in our show so far: S+ + Show Spoiler +Jaime (when he had both hands)
Oberyn
Jaqen Hagar (arguably, and I agree with Spaylz post)
S + Show Spoiler +The Mountain
Bronn
Ned Stark
Ser Baristan Selmy
Khal Drogo
Dario Naharis
Brienne
Grey Worm A + Show Spoiler +Jon Snow
Ser Jorah Mormont
Ser Aliser Torne
Syrio Forel
The Hound
Ser Loras Tyrell
Berik Dondarrion B + Show Spoiler +probably i forgot someone
Yeah obviously tier lists are a silly exercise, if fun.
What really matters is different expertise, and how it matters in practice and as regards the character. Brienne is insanely good at dueling--she's repeatedly taken on the best in Westeros and beaten them in swordplay with efficient bladework and skillful disarms. But we have no idea what she's like in a battle. The Mountain would be a terror on the battlefield, capable of cleaving through groups of enemies, but his relative lack of finesse made him vulnerable in 1v1. Oberyrn was an insane fighter, who ended up biting it because of overconfidence. Bronn would probably be up there for generally being useful in any situation.
Or how about this situation: who loses in a one-on-one in an open field against a competent archer? That's actually bad news for a few of the best: Snow, Oberyn, and Bronn are all probably hosed. Loras, Brienne, and even fucking Tywin might well make it.
On May 07 2015 20:01 TMG26 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2015 04:09 Mafe wrote:
Also, should Tommen and Myrcella die, nobody should have any legitimate reason to dispute Stannis' claim to the throne (even though I don't see Cersei, Jaime, and maybe even the Tyrells accepting this at all)?! Stannis next in line after Myrcella. Assuming Tommen and Myrcella are legitimate. Normally, heritage has children before brothers and then uncles, Tyrion should have been the current Lannister top dog, but he is exiled, that means Cersei is in charge (Males only take priority over Females in the same generation, so Cersei comes before Tywin's Brother). Shall Cersei die, Castle Rock should go to Tommen, and so the Lannister heritage falls to Baratheon name. But since relationships are good between Tommen and Tywin's Brother, Tommen might as well pass it to him. The Sand Snakes should just make sure that Tommen produces no heirs, and Myrcella is next in line for both the Iron Throne and the Rock. Myrcella sons will have the last name Martell because Tyrion in season 2 shipped her to Dorne to marry the Martell heir. Still claims are claims, if if legitimate, wars were fought for less.
This is a good analysis. I'm not sure the Sand Snakes are that rational, but if I were Doran, I'd be explaining this to them, and set them off to take out Tommen, not harm their only hope out of a silly idea of revenge.
Also, there's a chance that Stannis would have his claim considered disqualified by some on the grounds of his religion. We haven't seen clear laws on this in Westeros, but I can easily imagine that somebody could oppose it on religious grounds (heck, most viewers do).
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On May 07 2015 22:04 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Yep, it was Bronn, he exactly described the strategy he could to win vs mountain, and the same strat was picked by Oberyn. Considering Oberyns past I think he was like S+ fighter overall, while Bronn somewhere near S or A+ emotions killed the viper just my personal tier list of fighters based in our show so far: S+ + Show Spoiler +Jaime (when he had both hands)
Oberyn
Jaqen Hagar (arguably, and I agree with Spaylz post)
S + Show Spoiler +The Mountain
Bronn
Ned Stark
Ser Baristan Selmy
Khal Drogo
Dario Naharis
Brienne
Grey Worm A + Show Spoiler +Jon Snow
Ser Jorah Mormont
Ser Aliser Torne
Syrio Forel
The Hound
Ser Loras Tyrell
Berik Dondarrion B + Show Spoiler +probably i forgot someone
F-
+ Show Spoiler +
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I would not put Oberyn above Mountain because he uses poison on his weapons to slow down the enemy
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On May 08 2015 04:05 -Archangel- wrote:
I would not put Oberyn above Mountain because he uses poison on his weapons to slow down the enemy
That's just smart. Is Bronn rated any lower for being a dirty fighter? It's so easy for these guys to die I can't really blame them for using every possible advantage to their favor.
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On May 08 2015 04:18 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 04:05 -Archangel- wrote:
I would not put Oberyn above Mountain because he uses poison on his weapons to slow down the enemy That's just smart. Is Bronn rated any lower for being a dirty fighter? It's so easy for these guys to die I can't really blame them for using every possible advantage to their favor.
well in that case, joffrey is the best fighter ever for using a crossbow ^^
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On May 08 2015 04:25 oGoZenob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 04:18 ZasZ. wrote:On May 08 2015 04:05 -Archangel- wrote:
I would not put Oberyn above Mountain because he uses poison on his weapons to slow down the enemy That's just smart. Is Bronn rated any lower for being a dirty fighter? It's so easy for these guys to die I can't really blame them for using every possible advantage to their favor. well in that case, joffrey is the best fighter ever for using a crossbow ^^
Tyrion still would be "higher" in this list than Joffrey
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EPT
