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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On April 22 2015 01:07 sumsaR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 03:46 -Archangel- wrote:
I don't understand why are people upset with Dany. She's incompetent and has a Messiah Complex. Seems unlikely things won't get worse. She also screwed the pooch with her dragons, rather imprisoning all of them in a dungeon (instead of doing some real parenting) for what one of them did. That'll teach them not to fry kids!
If she was incompetent she would not accomplish so much with so little.
And how do you parent Dragons? It is not like you can send them to a corner for being bad LOL.
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On April 22 2015 04:16 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 02:10 oGoZenob wrote:On April 22 2015 01:07 sumsaR wrote:On April 21 2015 03:46 -Archangel- wrote:
I don't understand why are people upset with Dany. She's incompetent and has a Messiah Complex. Seems unlikely things won't get worse. She also screwed the pooch with her dragons, rather imprisoning all of them in a dungeon (instead of doing some real parenting) for what one of them did. That'll teach them not to fry kids! not to mention "I'll kill you without a trial for killing a man without a trial !" She is judge, jury, and executioner unless she wants to appoint a panel of judges like what was used for Tyrion's trial. The man confessed, she heard what he had to say, and sentenced him to death. I do not see a conflict in her application of the law. Whether or not she should have shown mercy is another question entirely. Robb Stark also followed the law without any interpretation or mercy...but only when it applied to people who weren't his immediate family. At least Dany is consistent (so far).
The thing about it was it seemed the former slaves really wanted her to show mercy and the former masters seemed rather indifferent about what she was going to do. It's not like they were chanting for his head as the former slaves chanted for mercy. Seems like a lesser punishment (than death) would of been preferable for everyone involved.
So what I think many people had an issue with is: how did not showing mercy help her in any way? Combined with her not wanting to open the fighting pits, it's hard to say which culture she was/is more oblivious about Meereen or the Dothraki.
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On April 22 2015 04:47 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 04:16 ZasZ. wrote:On April 22 2015 02:10 oGoZenob wrote:On April 22 2015 01:07 sumsaR wrote:On April 21 2015 03:46 -Archangel- wrote:
I don't understand why are people upset with Dany. She's incompetent and has a Messiah Complex. Seems unlikely things won't get worse. She also screwed the pooch with her dragons, rather imprisoning all of them in a dungeon (instead of doing some real parenting) for what one of them did. That'll teach them not to fry kids! not to mention "I'll kill you without a trial for killing a man without a trial !" She is judge, jury, and executioner unless she wants to appoint a panel of judges like what was used for Tyrion's trial. The man confessed, she heard what he had to say, and sentenced him to death. I do not see a conflict in her application of the law. Whether or not she should have shown mercy is another question entirely. Robb Stark also followed the law without any interpretation or mercy...but only when it applied to people who weren't his immediate family. At least Dany is consistent (so far). The thing about it was it seemed the former slaves really wanted her to show mercy and the former masters seemed rather indifferent about what she was going to do. It's not like they were chanting for his head as the former slaves chanted for mercy. Seems like a lesser punishment (than death) would of been preferable for everyone involved. So what I think many people had an issue with is: how did not showing mercy help her in any way? Combined with her not wanting to open the fighting pits, it's hard to say which culture she was/is more oblivious about Meereen or the Dothraki.
Oh I agree it was a bad move, but the people maintaining that she was inconsistent with her stance on a fair trial were wrong about why it was a bad move. Politically, she has a lot more to gain from showing mercy to a former slave, a member of her largest support group, than executing him in order to uphold the law. But she likely sees that as a slippery slope. At what point is it inappropriate to bend the law to seek a politically positive outcome? At what point does she become as bad as her father?
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On April 22 2015 05:29 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 04:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 22 2015 04:16 ZasZ. wrote:On April 22 2015 02:10 oGoZenob wrote:On April 22 2015 01:07 sumsaR wrote:On April 21 2015 03:46 -Archangel- wrote:
I don't understand why are people upset with Dany. She's incompetent and has a Messiah Complex. Seems unlikely things won't get worse. She also screwed the pooch with her dragons, rather imprisoning all of them in a dungeon (instead of doing some real parenting) for what one of them did. That'll teach them not to fry kids! not to mention "I'll kill you without a trial for killing a man without a trial !" She is judge, jury, and executioner unless she wants to appoint a panel of judges like what was used for Tyrion's trial. The man confessed, she heard what he had to say, and sentenced him to death. I do not see a conflict in her application of the law. Whether or not she should have shown mercy is another question entirely. Robb Stark also followed the law without any interpretation or mercy...but only when it applied to people who weren't his immediate family. At least Dany is consistent (so far). The thing about it was it seemed the former slaves really wanted her to show mercy and the former masters seemed rather indifferent about what she was going to do. It's not like they were chanting for his head as the former slaves chanted for mercy. Seems like a lesser punishment (than death) would of been preferable for everyone involved. So what I think many people had an issue with is: how did not showing mercy help her in any way? Combined with her not wanting to open the fighting pits, it's hard to say which culture she was/is more oblivious about Meereen or the Dothraki. Oh I agree it was a bad move, but the people maintaining that she was inconsistent with her stance on a fair trial were wrong about why it was a bad move. Politically, she has a lot more to gain from showing mercy to a former slave, a member of her largest support group, than executing him in order to uphold the law. But she likely sees that as a slippery slope. At what point is it inappropriate to bend the law to seek a politically positive outcome? At what point does she become as bad as her father?
When she get's paranoid and starts burning down innocent peoples homes and families? She's pulling the rules out of her ass anyway, if she said "the law says the punishment for this is 100 lashes" or whatever no one would of been the wiser. She will learn the lesson that every leader eventually learns, which is that you lead who you have not who you wish you had.
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On April 21 2015 01:14 LeeDawg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 19:40 SkelA wrote:
I hope Dany gets what coming to her just like Rob. She my most hated alive character in the show now. I don't see Danny dying, simply because her entire plot line would've been a waste of time for her to die. it seems like the only character who has any semblance of narrative protection is her, since every other story line could continue to exist minus any one of the other characters.
I always thought that Bran, Jon Snow, Tyrion, Arya and Dany were the unkillable characters.
Imagine Arya dying now. Then what, it's a total waste of time, and many many promising plot development goes to the trash. Oh in fact she only met Jaqar to go to Bravos and get killed. That don't make sense.
Bran can't die. We have followed him in a boring journey to a mysterious tree, and finally the three eye raven thing is starting to make sense. He hasn't played any part in the overall plot other than being thrown off a tower in Episode 1. You don't kill a character that has been developed for five season on a separate plotline and hasn't contributed to anything.
Jon Snow is basically the hero of the show imo. He is the most accomplished character, comes from nothing, gets there. He has a huge part to play in the story.
Dany can't die of course. At least not right now, for the same reasons than both Jon and Bran.
Tyrion is too cool to die. I think that would be a mistake. Also he didn't escape execution and got shipped to Braavos to get killed. That would make little sense too.
If you look like all the character that died, even when it was the most surprising, it made total sense in the overall arch-story. Ned or Robb has actually accomplished their role in the narrative and were ready to go.
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On April 22 2015 06:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 01:14 LeeDawg wrote:On April 20 2015 19:40 SkelA wrote:
I hope Dany gets what coming to her just like Rob. She my most hated alive character in the show now. I don't see Danny dying, simply because her entire plot line would've been a waste of time for her to die. it seems like the only character who has any semblance of narrative protection is her, since every other story line could continue to exist minus any one of the other characters. I always thought that Bran, Jon Snow, Tyrion, Arya and Dany were the unkillable characters. Imagine Arya dying now. Then what, it's a total waste of time, and many many promising plot development goes to the trash. Oh in fact she only met Jaqar to go to Bravos and get killed. That don't make sense. Bran can't die. We have followed him in a boring journey to a mysterious tree, and finally the three eye raven thing is starting to make sense. He hasn't played any part in the overall plot other than being thrown off a tower in Episode 1. You don't kill a character that has been developed for five season on a separate plotline and hasn't contributed to anything. Jon Snow is basically the hero of the show imo. He is the most accomplished character, comes from nothing, gets there. He has a huge part to play in the story. Dany can't die of course. At least not right now, for the same reasons than both Jon and Bran. Tyrion is too cool to die. I think that would be a mistake. Also he didn't escape execution and got shipped to Braavos to get killed. That would make little sense too. If you look like all the character that died, even when it was the most surprising, it made total sense in the overall arch-story. Ned or Robb has actually accomplished their role in the narrative and were ready to go.
I think any of them could die except Bran. That would be the most pointless story line ever. Of the people you listed I could see Tyrion being the easiest to kill off. Probably one of the most universally liked characters, but isn't really necessary to anything at this point.
Arya failing in an assasination and it costing her her life would be disappointing but totally plausible.
Jon could easily be killed off by stubborn wildlings probably some Thenns
Dany could get replaced with Varus and Tyrion if Varus learned of some way to control the dragons.
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Canada11265 Posts
That would be the most pointless story line ever. Unless a major theme was everything is meaningless, meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
Plot twist! Rocks fall and everyone dies. The End.
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Game of Thrones is actually a political commentary on global warming and the end of civilization due to the coming ice age.
:O
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On April 22 2015 06:40 Falling wrote: Unless a major theme was everything is meaningless, meaningless, a chasing after the wind. Plot twist! Rocks fall and everyone dies. The End.
Also the Dragons are still on their way. And winter is coming.
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On April 22 2015 06:40 Falling wrote: Unless a major theme was everything is meaningless, meaningless, a chasing after the wind. Plot twist! Rocks fall and everyone dies. The End.
Yeah, I don't buy it. No plotline has been meaningless thus far. Everyone who's died did so in a pretty classically tragic way, usually on account of the tragic flaw of themself or someone close to them. The story is certainly "ruthless," but it's a far cry from "meaningless" even if the characters themselves can't see the unifying threads.
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On April 22 2015 04:38 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 01:07 sumsaR wrote:On April 21 2015 03:46 -Archangel- wrote:
I don't understand why are people upset with Dany. She's incompetent and has a Messiah Complex. Seems unlikely things won't get worse. She also screwed the pooch with her dragons, rather imprisoning all of them in a dungeon (instead of doing some real parenting) for what one of them did. That'll teach them not to fry kids! If she was incompetent she would not accomplish so much with so little. And how do you parent Dragons? It is not like you can send them to a corner for being bad LOL.
But she doesn't have "so little". She's pretty much scathed through with luck/help/circumstances so far. Comparatively very little she's accomplished so far has been due to her own competence, and not her family name, being the mother of dragons or having competent advisors (she rarely listens to). Imagine where she'd been without those. Either dead before the tv series started or dead from starving due to not being let into Qohor.
No, you don't send them to a corner for being bad. But you also don't send them into the cellar, chain them up and lock the door. That can only make it worse.
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On April 22 2015 16:28 sumsaR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 04:38 -Archangel- wrote:On April 22 2015 01:07 sumsaR wrote:On April 21 2015 03:46 -Archangel- wrote:
I don't understand why are people upset with Dany. She's incompetent and has a Messiah Complex. Seems unlikely things won't get worse. She also screwed the pooch with her dragons, rather imprisoning all of them in a dungeon (instead of doing some real parenting) for what one of them did. That'll teach them not to fry kids! If she was incompetent she would not accomplish so much with so little. And how do you parent Dragons? It is not like you can send them to a corner for being bad LOL. But she doesn't have "so little". She's pretty much scathed through with luck/help/circumstances so far. Comparatively very little she's accomplished so far has been due to her own competence, and not her family name, being the mother of dragons or having competent advisors (she rarely listens to). Imagine where she'd been without those. Either dead before the tv series started or dead from starving due to not being let into Qohor. No, you don't send them to a corner for being bad. But you also don't send them into the cellar, chain them up and lock the door. That can only make it worse.
You are acting like it is well known fact that in ancient times people without powerful families and lineages often accomplished much... she did more than people like Alexander did (in this part of their lives) who started as part of a ruling family with access to an army. She had her name and access to defenseless dragons and everything she did was her own doing. You can call it luck or whatever but people don't follow her and listen to her because of magic clouding their minds or something. The decisions she made got her an army and followers, nothing happened by itself while she was swimming in pools, eating fruit and fucking young boys. People seem to forget the trials she went through and act like they are meaningless. Her trials were greater than anyone else in the show.
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Mainly she got Dragons and had a retard brother, else she would be long dead by now... Assassin attempt was also "neatly" stopped in the last moment...
If you call getting Dragons and having a stupid Brother a "skillset" then you might be right...
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Daenerys did have a lot of luck. She got the dragons, family name and immunity to fire for free, her oppressive brother was killed without any backlash, and then she inherited the Dothraki army. Only then did she need to do work to achieve her goals. She did that well and things are working out pretty well for her, but it wouldn't be right to say she had it harder than anyone else. The only real hardship she ever had to endure was losing her beloved husband.
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On April 22 2015 16:28 sumsaR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 04:38 -Archangel- wrote:On April 22 2015 01:07 sumsaR wrote:On April 21 2015 03:46 -Archangel- wrote:
I don't understand why are people upset with Dany. She's incompetent and has a Messiah Complex. Seems unlikely things won't get worse. She also screwed the pooch with her dragons, rather imprisoning all of them in a dungeon (instead of doing some real parenting) for what one of them did. That'll teach them not to fry kids! If she was incompetent she would not accomplish so much with so little. And how do you parent Dragons? It is not like you can send them to a corner for being bad LOL. But she doesn't have "so little". She's pretty much scathed through with luck/help/circumstances so far. Comparatively very little she's accomplished so far has been due to her own competence, and not her family name, being the mother of dragons or having competent advisors (she rarely listens to). Imagine where she'd been without those. Either dead before the tv series started or dead from starving due to not being let into Qohor. No, you don't send them to a corner for being bad. But you also don't send them into the cellar, chain them up and lock the door. That can only make it worse.
Pretty much spot on.
Dany has accomplished pretty much nothing of note on her own. She has been given a lot and it's pretty much only due to her 1) family name, 2) good looks, and 3) the fact that she has dragons.
Seriously, what has she actually done? The only smart thing that I can think of (since her husband died and she became a ruler) was conning that prick into giving her the army and then roasting him so she didn't have to pay anything. Other than that, she has just had a bunch of military-minded people do all her work for her because of various reasons that she doesn't actually contribute to. Not only that, but all of the things her army has actually accomplished (freeing a bunch of slaves) are going out the window because she has no idea how to rule and wants to just waltz in and force her moral views on Slaver's Bay, causing widespread political upheaval.
A lot of people have called it right in saying that she has pretty much had zero development over the last couple seasons. She keeps making the same mistakes when ruling by being a naive, overly-ideological ruler and it's getting really, really dull. She was a really interesting character that went through a lot and had a lot of development in seasons 1 and some of 2, but since then, it's been horribly dull.
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On April 22 2015 06:27 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 06:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:On April 21 2015 01:14 LeeDawg wrote:On April 20 2015 19:40 SkelA wrote:
I hope Dany gets what coming to her just like Rob. She my most hated alive character in the show now. I don't see Danny dying, simply because her entire plot line would've been a waste of time for her to die. it seems like the only character who has any semblance of narrative protection is her, since every other story line could continue to exist minus any one of the other characters. I always thought that Bran, Jon Snow, Tyrion, Arya and Dany were the unkillable characters. Imagine Arya dying now. Then what, it's a total waste of time, and many many promising plot development goes to the trash. Oh in fact she only met Jaqar to go to Bravos and get killed. That don't make sense. Bran can't die. We have followed him in a boring journey to a mysterious tree, and finally the three eye raven thing is starting to make sense. He hasn't played any part in the overall plot other than being thrown off a tower in Episode 1. You don't kill a character that has been developed for five season on a separate plotline and hasn't contributed to anything. Jon Snow is basically the hero of the show imo. He is the most accomplished character, comes from nothing, gets there. He has a huge part to play in the story. Dany can't die of course. At least not right now, for the same reasons than both Jon and Bran. Tyrion is too cool to die. I think that would be a mistake. Also he didn't escape execution and got shipped to Braavos to get killed. That would make little sense too. If you look like all the character that died, even when it was the most surprising, it made total sense in the overall arch-story. Ned or Robb has actually accomplished their role in the narrative and were ready to go. I think any of them could die except Bran. That would be the most pointless story line ever. Of the people you listed I could see Tyrion being the easiest to kill off. Probably one of the most universally liked characters, but isn't really necessary to anything at this point. Arya failing in an assasination and it costing her her life would be disappointing but totally plausible. Jon could easily be killed off by stubborn wildlings probably some Thenns Dany could get replaced with Varus and Tyrion if Varus learned of some way to control the dragons.
Arya is the most unkillable, plot-wise imo. She's already assumed dead by everyone, so nothing would change if she died. If Bran died, at least a little would change in that his little brother would be the next in line for Winterfel (for whatever that's worth). Of course, Bran for now is safe with the magic grenade faries.
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On April 22 2015 21:08 Scorch wrote:
Daenerys did have a lot of luck. She got the dragons, family name and immunity to fire for free, her oppressive brother was killed without any backlash, and then she inherited the Dothraki army. Only then did she need to do work to achieve her goals. She did that well and things are working out pretty well for her, but it wouldn't be right to say she had it harder than anyone else. The only real hardship she ever had to endure was losing her beloved husband.
Wtf?!
0. She was exiled from her home and family and almost everyone in her family was slaughtered. She was on the run her whole life with nothing but charity to sustain her. She inherited this life because of her name. This is a hardship.
1. She got the dragon eggs which nobody could awake for who knows how long. And it wasn't luck because Illyrio knew only Targaryans had any connection with Dragons in all of history. So she inherited her name and got the eggs. It is not luck or most people in the world accomplish great things by being lucky to be born in special families.
2. She consciously decided to awake the eggs through the bonfire, it didn't happen by luck. She inherited the family connection with dragons and used it to awake the dragons. It is not luck or most people in the world accomplish great things by being lucky to be born in special families.
3. Her brother died because of his stupid actions. He was already irrelevant by that point. And you know why? Because Dany wasn't playing the subservient wife/sex slave role (which was a hardship as well) but took control of her marriage and her husband and her brother could not accept that and got himself killed as a result. This had nothing to do with her family name or heritage.
4. After the events of her husband dying (which was her fault for trusting the witch or just being naive; it is also a hardship, imagine knowing your actions got your husband and unborn son killed), she didn't inherit any Dothraki army but old men and children with very little of anything. She had her bloodriders but they were useless for anything but making them safe from random bandits.
5. They survived through very harsh environments (hardship) and got into a position of power through her decisions (and treachery) of obtaining the slave army.
6. After that she did conquests that were again her own doing (seducing Dario) and having stealth missions to open the gates of the city.
7. Now she lost control of her Dragons (hardship) but have yet to see how she gets through it.
Please tell me more how she had no hardships or got everything through Luck.
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Uhm...
No one claimed that she didn't have hardship? Just not Harder than the others.
But she was way more lucky than anyone else.
Brother was a Retard.
The Witch that killed her husband (and her Baby iirc) spared her for some reason (or that pregnancy alone).
She got Dragon Eggs and firing them up actually worked.
Warlock underestimated her.
Sir Friendzone was the only thing that held it together for her for the longest time (while spying on her and falling in love just at the right time, else he would just have killed her himself, he had plenty of time for that).
Unsullied-Slaveholder somehow tought she can be trusted/would uphold her side of the bargain.
Sir Supersoldier saved her from Assassination attempt just in time.
Dario just sponatenously falls for her and decides to betray his equals.
If any of the dead Starks (let alone Baratheons) would have had that amount of luck, they would be universally accepted kings by now...
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On April 22 2015 21:41 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 21:08 Scorch wrote:
Daenerys did have a lot of luck. She got the dragons, family name and immunity to fire for free, her oppressive brother was killed without any backlash, and then she inherited the Dothraki army. Only then did she need to do work to achieve her goals. She did that well and things are working out pretty well for her, but it wouldn't be right to say she had it harder than anyone else. The only real hardship she ever had to endure was losing her beloved husband. Wtf?! 0. She was exiled from her home and family and almost everyone in her family was slaughtered. She was on the run her whole life with nothing but charity to sustain her. She inherited this life because of her name. This is a hardship. 1. She got the dragon eggs which nobody could awake for who knows how long. And it wasn't luck because Illyrio knew only Targaryans had any connection with Dragons in all of history. So she inherited her name and got the eggs. It is not luck or most people in the world accomplish great things by being lucky to be born in special families. 2. She consciously decided to awake the eggs through the bonfire, it didn't happen by luck. She inherited the family connection with dragons and used it to awake the dragons. It is not luck or most people in the world accomplish great things by being lucky to be born in special families. 3. Her brother died because of his stupid actions. He was already irrelevant by that point. And you know why? Because Dany wasn't playing the subservient wife/sex slave role (which was a hardship as well) but took control of her marriage and her husband and her brother could not accept that and got himself killed as a result. This had nothing to do with her family name or heritage. 4. After the events of her husband dying (which was her fault for trusting the witch or just being naive; it is also a hardship, imagine knowing your actions got your husband and unborn son killed), she didn't inherit any Dothraki army but old men and children with very little of anything. She had her bloodriders but they were useless for anything but making them safe from random bandits. 5. They survived through very harsh environments (hardship) and got into a position of power through her decisions (and treachery) of obtaining the slave army. 6. After that she did conquests that were again her own doing (seducing Dario) and having stealth missions to open the gates of the city. 7. Now she lost control of her Dragons (hardship) but have yet to see how she gets through it. Please tell me more how she had no hardships or got everything through Luck.
Who said anything about hardhships? People are commenting about her lack of judgement, and somehow Alexander is drawn in for comparison.
She basically survived through 3 assassinations because 2 people wanted to bone her and the last just so happened to show up at the right time-- she walked alone, by herself, into a warlock's den that has her dragons. She killed her husband. etc etc.
Edit: ninja'd
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On April 22 2015 21:56 Velr wrote:
Uhm...
No one claimed that she didn't have hardship? Just not Harder than the others.
But she was way more lucky than anyone else.
Brother was a Retard.
The Witch that killed her husband (and her Baby iirc) spared her for some reason (or that pregnancy alone).
She got Dragon Eggs and firing them up actually worked.
Warlock underestimated her.
Sir Friendzone was the only thing that held it together for her for the longest time (while spying on her and falling in love just at the right time, else he would just have killed her himself, he had plenty of time for that).
Unsullied-Slaveholder somehow tought she can be trusted/would uphold her side of the bargain.
Sir Supersoldier saved her from Assassination attempt just in time.
Dario just sponatenously falls for her and decides to betray his equals.
If any of the dead Starks (let alone Baratheons) would have had that amount of luck, they would be universally accepted kings by now...
None of that is luck and I explained why. And I also listed her hardships and they are more than what others endured up to this point while having a better start when compared to what they accomplished from the start. Only Cersei endured similar hardships but she had a much better start and accomplished little by herself (she got Robert and Ned killed and Robert's death was also "luck")
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EPT
