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On June 21 2012 08:46 Courthead wrote:
[*]But there's still the mystery of who Tobi is, and how Madara was resurrectable, so who really knows wtf is going to happen here.
Itachi found Tobi rummaging through the old tombs of the uchiha, so maybe he stole some of madara's remains which allowed Kabuto to summon him. Why he stole it in the first place would still be mysterious though.
But I do not see how Sasuke can be stronger than anybody with the Rinnegan, considering that Madara claimed that it was the form that comes after the Sharingan.
And I do not see how Nagato managed to get himself a pair of Rinnegan eyes, as he doesn't seem very Uchiha-like to me. Somewhere, Tobi has do come in line there, as he was the head of Akatsuki.
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Im upset, by the current plot path i suspect Tobi in fact will be the last villain, i was really hoping that Oro will surpress Kabuto (or something like that) and throw away this gimmick Tobi as last villain. Kabuto, hmm i really hoped that Kishimoto will plot it better, basically Kabuto got schooled by Itachi (who werent schooled by Itachi ehh), and this jutsu "that will never end" was simply de-casted by few signs.
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On June 21 2012 22:47 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 08:46 Courthead wrote:
[*]But there's still the mystery of who Tobi is, and how Madara was resurrectable, so who really knows wtf is going to happen here.
Itachi found Tobi rummaging through the old tombs of the uchiha, so maybe he stole some of madara's remains which allowed Kabuto to summon him. Why he stole it in the first place would still be mysterious though. But I do not see how Sasuke can be stronger than anybody with the Rinnegan, considering that Madara claimed that it was the form that comes after the Sharingan. And I do not see how Nagato managed to get himself a pair of Rinnegan eyes, as he doesn't seem very Uchiha-like to me. Somewhere, Tobi has do come in line there, as he was the head of Akatsuki.
Tobi said that it was him who gave the eyes to Nagato, although that could be a lie. The Sage of Six Paths was born with it, obviously it's rare like all birth mutations so it makes sense that it took a few hundred years for next born Rinnegan user (if that is indeed the case and Tobi is lying).
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On June 21 2012 22:24 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 21:47 bgx wrote:On June 20 2012 19:23 TheKefka wrote:
The way that eyes are passed around in this manga is so freakin funny.
It's like "O wait a second as I just pull my only eye out of my skull and hand it over to you" rofl One of my biggest turn aways since i started to read it 5-6 years ago. Itachi first ecnounter was awesome unique, OP(overpowered) but cool and we felt like it should be the boundries, like "Kishi pls dont push it further", nope. It was just an excuse to start nonsensical buff series for sasuke and Naruto turning it into one of many shounen's that are only interesting in first stages before OP stage comes in. When it was Kakashi and Sasuke it was very good, super rare almost non existant bloodline with 1 user not exactly utilizing it to 100% efficiency, then Itachi came which was kinda okayish, but no one knew the series will evolve into bloodline trade between 5 characters that will troll the whole universe + out of ass rinnegan. I think Sharingan was amazing when Itachi was introduced, and what Mangekyu Sharingan can do. Up to Itachi was good because it showed what a master of the user is capable of. Amaterasu is still one of my favorite techniques. I think it started going overboard with the introduction of Susanoo, Izanagi / Izanami. Then the whole eye trading thing was weird. And now super bloodline rinnegan + sharingan just killed everything. What's the point of training, becoming a Jonin, learning all these jutsus when you can just have sharingan?
Every sharingan user trains extensively, you see this in the beginning of shippuden where Sasuke doesn't even use his eyes to defeat a lot of his enemies (including an army)
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On June 22 2012 00:50 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 22:24 GhostOwl wrote:On June 20 2012 21:47 bgx wrote:On June 20 2012 19:23 TheKefka wrote:
The way that eyes are passed around in this manga is so freakin funny.
It's like "O wait a second as I just pull my only eye out of my skull and hand it over to you" rofl One of my biggest turn aways since i started to read it 5-6 years ago. Itachi first ecnounter was awesome unique, OP(overpowered) but cool and we felt like it should be the boundries, like "Kishi pls dont push it further", nope. It was just an excuse to start nonsensical buff series for sasuke and Naruto turning it into one of many shounen's that are only interesting in first stages before OP stage comes in. When it was Kakashi and Sasuke it was very good, super rare almost non existant bloodline with 1 user not exactly utilizing it to 100% efficiency, then Itachi came which was kinda okayish, but no one knew the series will evolve into bloodline trade between 5 characters that will troll the whole universe + out of ass rinnegan. I think Sharingan was amazing when Itachi was introduced, and what Mangekyu Sharingan can do. Up to Itachi was good because it showed what a master of the user is capable of. Amaterasu is still one of my favorite techniques. I think it started going overboard with the introduction of Susanoo, Izanagi / Izanami. Then the whole eye trading thing was weird. And now super bloodline rinnegan + sharingan just killed everything. What's the point of training, becoming a Jonin, learning all these jutsus when you can just have sharingan? Every sharingan user trains extensively, you see this in the beginning of shippuden where Sasuke doesn't even use his eyes to defeat a lot of his enemies (including an army)
The point is that sharingan has become so OP that you don't need anything else. A pair of eyeballs > all.
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On June 22 2012 00:57 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 00:50 ixi.genocide wrote:On June 21 2012 22:24 GhostOwl wrote:On June 20 2012 21:47 bgx wrote:On June 20 2012 19:23 TheKefka wrote:
The way that eyes are passed around in this manga is so freakin funny.
It's like "O wait a second as I just pull my only eye out of my skull and hand it over to you" rofl One of my biggest turn aways since i started to read it 5-6 years ago. Itachi first ecnounter was awesome unique, OP(overpowered) but cool and we felt like it should be the boundries, like "Kishi pls dont push it further", nope. It was just an excuse to start nonsensical buff series for sasuke and Naruto turning it into one of many shounen's that are only interesting in first stages before OP stage comes in. When it was Kakashi and Sasuke it was very good, super rare almost non existant bloodline with 1 user not exactly utilizing it to 100% efficiency, then Itachi came which was kinda okayish, but no one knew the series will evolve into bloodline trade between 5 characters that will troll the whole universe + out of ass rinnegan. I think Sharingan was amazing when Itachi was introduced, and what Mangekyu Sharingan can do. Up to Itachi was good because it showed what a master of the user is capable of. Amaterasu is still one of my favorite techniques. I think it started going overboard with the introduction of Susanoo, Izanagi / Izanami. Then the whole eye trading thing was weird. And now super bloodline rinnegan + sharingan just killed everything. What's the point of training, becoming a Jonin, learning all these jutsus when you can just have sharingan? Every sharingan user trains extensively, you see this in the beginning of shippuden where Sasuke doesn't even use his eyes to defeat a lot of his enemies (including an army) The point is that sharingan has become so OP that you don't need anything else. A pair of eyeballs > all.
Yes but it's worth noting how exclusive it is lauded to be... Few of the Uchiha ever get Sharingan, few of those Sharingan users get Mangekyo, so on and so forth. Obviously the story focuses on the few that make it all the way; if it did not, it'd be the equivalent of a show about regular people doing blue collar jobs or something instead of a show about crocodile hunters or whatnot. Yes it's OP but it took a lot of pain, hard work, and chance to achieve.
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Yeah but the greater point is how awesome was it when we first saw Itachi and Kakshi whip out the sharingan. It gave them a new set of options and augmented them by allowing them to win by making better decisions than their opponents. Decisions in the sense that they could engage in taijutsu at a superior level and have access to an expanded set of ninjutsu to fight in a creative way.
Now we have Sasuke and Madara just brute forcing people by using the direct strength of the sharingan to win rather than the cunning that Itachi and Kakashi used.
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On June 22 2012 03:28 Sabu113 wrote:
Yeah but the greater point is how awesome was it when we first saw Itachi and Kakshi whip out the sharingan. It gave them a new set of options and augmented them by allowing them to win by making better decisions than their opponents. Decisions in the sense that they could engage in taijutsu at a superior level and have access to an expanded set of ninjutsu to fight in a creative way.
Now we have Sasuke and Madara just brute forcing people by using the direct strength of the sharingan to win rather than the cunning that Itachi and Kakashi used.
I think the most awesome part about Kakashi vs Itachi back in the first season was when Gai came in and was like "we can do this, just look at their feet to predict their movement". It made it seem as if even with the sharingan, you could still be beaten. When Naruto faced Pain (although extremely weakened) it was awesome that even though he had the rinnegan, Naruto could still pull through (though this may be a bad example as he had to use the fox). It was cool to see that the so-called extremely cool kekkei genkai could be beaten with enough skill/tactics/force.
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On June 22 2012 04:36 Dark_Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 03:28 Sabu113 wrote:
Yeah but the greater point is how awesome was it when we first saw Itachi and Kakshi whip out the sharingan. It gave them a new set of options and augmented them by allowing them to win by making better decisions than their opponents. Decisions in the sense that they could engage in taijutsu at a superior level and have access to an expanded set of ninjutsu to fight in a creative way.
Now we have Sasuke and Madara just brute forcing people by using the direct strength of the sharingan to win rather than the cunning that Itachi and Kakashi used. I think the most awesome part about Kakashi vs Itachi back in the first season was when Gai came in and was like "we can do this, just look at their feet to predict their movement". It made it seem as if even with the sharingan, you could still be beaten. When Naruto faced Pain (although extremely weakened) it was awesome that even though he had the rinnegan, Naruto could still pull through (though this may be a bad example as he had to use the fox). It was cool to see that the so-called extremely cool kekkei genkai could be beaten with enough skill/tactics/force.
You still see this with people fighting Sasuke, the exception that we really have is itachi, who is the real hero of the Naruto universe, and Madara, who says quite clearly that hashirama could beat him and his power level is just that much higher than the current kage's. While this seems excessive you can't really say that the sharingan is commonly used. In fact this seems like the sharingan chapter of naruto more than anything.
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The Sharingan is very rare, especially at the highest levels of power as we are seeing now. Even so, every single level of Sharingan we've seen is defeatable. Even the resurrected Madara admits that Hashirama could defeat him. But you have to be aware that we're seeing absolutely legendary ninjas now. People who are easily in the top 5 strength in the history of the Naruto universe. Not only have they inherited exceedingly powerful techniques and abilities, but they're also expert strategists with more real-world battle experience than anyone else. You can't expect average-level ninja to be able to defeat them simply by being clever.
In fact, I think that's one of the major themes of Naruto: Hard work vs natural-born talent. Learned techniques vs kekkei genkai. And the cold, hard answer in the Naruto universe (as well as in the real world) is that hard work + natural talent beats hard work by itself. Personally, I enjoy watching some of the characters struggle with this realization, yet push on to find their place in the world regardless.
For example, Gai and Rock Lee bemoan the natural talent of people like Neji and Kakashi. And, through unparalleled amounts of hard work, they've been able to match their rivals. But even though Kakashi seems like a genius in comparison to Gai, he's actually at quite a natural disadvantage compared to many other ninjas. He has extremely low chakra reserves, for example. And he doesn't have a natural kekkei genkai, a tailed beast, or anything like that. So from one perspective he's almost unfairly gifted, but at other times (when he fights Pain and Sasuke, for example) you realize the limits of his talent.
Then you have people like Orochimaru. He worked hard, but in more creative (and unethical) ways than people like Gai and Rock Lee. But he realized that none of his research could compare to the power of a fully-developed Sharingan, and that tore him up inside. It was his prime source of internal conflict. It affected his entire being -- and this is a hokage-level ninja we're talking about. The entirety of his goals lied in using his head and hard work to acquire the rare powers he wasn't fortunate enough to be born with. All this, despite the fact that he was obviously born with a genius mind and developed great ninja abilities of his own.
So people at pretty much all skill levels have to deal with this balance and accept it. The only exceptions are the select few who seem to be direct descendants of the sons of the original Sage of the Six Paths.
It's easy to claim that such-and-such is OP, but I think that's a shallow analysis and is missing the point. Ironically, that complaint probably echoes the exact sentiments and frustrations of many of the characters in the Naruto universe itself.
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A lot of people just simply do not understand Naruto. They should read it all again to get some perspective.
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On June 22 2012 09:01 Courthead wrote:
The Sharingan is very rare, especially at the highest levels of power as we are seeing now. Even so, every single level of Sharingan we've seen is defeatable. Even the resurrected Madara admits that Hashirama could defeat him. But you have to be aware that we're seeing absolutely legendary ninjas now. People who are easily in the top 5 strength in the history of the Naruto universe. Not only have they inherited exceedingly powerful techniques and abilities, but they're also expert strategists with more real-world battle experience than anyone else. You can't expect average-level ninja to be able to defeat them simply by being clever.
In fact, I think that's one of the major themes of Naruto: Hard work vs natural-born talent. Learned techniques vs kekkei genkai. And the cold, hard answer in the Naruto universe (as well as in the real world) is that hard work + natural talent beats hard work by itself. Personally, I enjoy watching some of the characters struggle with this realization, yet push on to find their place in the world regardless.
For example, Gai and Rock Lee bemoan the natural talent of people like Neji and Kakashi. And, through unparalleled amounts of hard work, they've been able to match their rivals. But even though Kakashi seems like a genius in comparison to Gai, he's actually at quite a natural disadvantage compared to many other ninjas. He has extremely low chakra reserves, for example. And he doesn't have a natural kekkei genkai, a tailed beast, or anything like that. So from one perspective he's almost unfairly gifted, but at other times (when he fights Pain and Sasuke, for example) you realize the limits of his talent.
Then you have people like Orochimaru. He worked hard, but in more creative (and unethical) ways than people like Gai and Rock Lee. But he realized that none of his research could compare to the power of a fully-developed Sharingan, and that tore him up inside. It was his prime source of internal conflict. It affected his entire being -- and this is a hokage-level ninja we're talking about. The entirety of his goals lied in using his head and hard work to acquire the rare powers he wasn't fortunate enough to be born with. All this, despite the fact that he was obviously born with a genius mind and developed great ninja abilities of his own.
So people at pretty much all skill levels have to deal with this balance and accept it. The only exceptions are the select few who seem to be direct descendants of the sons of the original Sage of the Six Paths.
It's easy to claim that such-and-such is OP, but I think that's a shallow analysis and is missing the point. Ironically, that complaint probably echoes the exact sentiments and frustrations of many of the characters in the Naruto universe itself.
I can't speak for other people, but what I'm unhappy about is 1: the characters are getting exponentially stronger, and 2: sharingan is an overused ability. You'll naturally see stronger characters, but the increase in strength is so ridiculous that all previously-introduced characters pale in comparison. Do you remember that kage bunshin was once considered a really powerful technique? Now the shadow clones are getting swatted like flies... It's like someone going super saiyan among a bunch of ants.... And sharingan is lulz. Why fight with whatever skills you've learned... when a pair of eyeballs can do everything.. and more.
As you've said, Gai and Rock Lee are pretty strong, based on their own effort. But their strength pales in comparison to the recently introduced characters, with the main offenders being the sharingan users.
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Eh shadow clones were considered standard yet dangerous to use because it splits your chakra. (in order to graduate academy and become a genin you had to make a shadow clone) Mass shadow clones, which is the scroll that naruto stole, was considered a forbidden technique because it splits your chakra into far too many bodies. Naruto is the only one in the entire series with the chakra amounts to actually use it without it being dangerous. That aside, I fully agree with you. I'm sure soon the sharingan will become it's own setinent being capable of defeating the 5 kage single handedly.... >_>
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We've known about the Sage of the Six Paths for quite some time. He single-handedly created ninjutsu, defeated the 10-tails, created the moon, and tamed all 9 tailed beasts. I just don't see the rationale behind complaining about the fact that 2 or 3 legendarily-strong characters have about half of his power just because the earlier parts of the manga focused on relatively-weak ninjas.
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On June 22 2012 10:23 BlackPaladin wrote:
Eh shadow clones were considered standard yet dangerous to use because it splits your chakra. (in order to graduate academy and become a genin you had to make a shadow clone) Mass shadow clones, which is the scroll that naruto stole, was considered a forbidden technique because it splits your chakra into far too many bodies. Naruto is the only one in the entire series with the chakra amounts to actually use it without it being dangerous. That aside, I fully agree with you. I'm sure soon the sharingan will become it's own setinent being capable of defeating the 5 kage single handedly.... >_>
Eh those clones to pass the genin exam aren't shadow clones. They're generic clones without a name, and apparently require a tree stump in order to materialize. Naruto learned the shadow clone technique, which doesn't require a dummy object nor composed of elements like water or earth. He just had too much chakra to spam a million of them.
And the sharingan almost defeated the 5 kage singlehandedly lol. We'll see what happens after the edo tensei has been unsummoned. Will the eyes pop out of the dead body and have a life of their own?
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On June 22 2012 11:02 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 10:23 BlackPaladin wrote:
Eh shadow clones were considered standard yet dangerous to use because it splits your chakra. (in order to graduate academy and become a genin you had to make a shadow clone) Mass shadow clones, which is the scroll that naruto stole, was considered a forbidden technique because it splits your chakra into far too many bodies. Naruto is the only one in the entire series with the chakra amounts to actually use it without it being dangerous. That aside, I fully agree with you. I'm sure soon the sharingan will become it's own setinent being capable of defeating the 5 kage single handedly.... >_> Eh those clones to pass the genin exam aren't shadow clones. They're generic clones without a name, and apparently require a tree stump in order to materialize. Naruto learned the shadow clone technique, which doesn't require a dummy object nor composed of elements like water or earth. He just had too much chakra to spam a million of them. And the sharingan almost defeated the 5 kage singlehandedly lol. We'll see what happens after the edo tensei has been unsummoned. Will the eyes pop out of the dead body and have a life of their own?
hashirama would have also beat the 5 kage's and possibly even minato
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On June 22 2012 10:23 BlackPaladin wrote:
Eh shadow clones were considered standard yet dangerous to use because it splits your chakra. (in order to graduate academy and become a genin you had to make a shadow clone) Mass shadow clones, which is the scroll that naruto stole, was considered a forbidden technique because it splits your chakra into far too many bodies. Naruto is the only one in the entire series with the chakra amounts to actually use it without it being dangerous. That aside, I fully agree with you. I'm sure soon the sharingan will become it's own setinent being capable of defeating the 5 kage single handedly.... >_>
you're completely wrong the genin test required Bunshin no jutsu and the technique inside naruto's scroll was Kage Bunshin No Jutsu, a forbidden technique because it splits the chakra in half and b-level technique, meaning one rank under the regular rasengan which is A level
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Some of the guys have made a mistake with their reasoning. They said that Mangekyu Sharingan was a rare technique and apparently only a handful of ninja could use it. This is wrong. Izanami was introduced because too many people used Izanagi to create their own fates without caring about the consequences. To use Izanagi you need Mangekyu/(Blood of the first hokage)
Do you guys wanna tell me, that Izanami was created so three or four Uchihas coulkd not use Izanagi? As it was overused before?
2-3 Uchihas before Itachie got Mangekyu ->making it up to 6 possible uses of Izanagi. -> We have to subtract 3 uses as otherwise the ninjas would be fully blind ->3 uses left ->Lets say it was used twice and defined as "overused" (1 use left) ->Izanami was created to stop them from doing so (Izanami requires the same things as Izanagi.)
=> We have one fully seeing Mangekyu Uchiha left who can stop the other 2 Mangekyu Uchihas from going fully blind and use Izanagi once more?
Result: For Izanami to make sense Mangekyu seemed to be a common Uchiha Powerup back in the days.
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You do not need Mangekyou for Izangi. Proved by Danzo, and Tobi !
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I've been liking the new chapters, but I think it also introduced my only big complaint about the manga as a whole so far. I don't have a problem with certain powers being OP or anything like that, Sharingan and the Wood Style were always meant to be stronger. However, I think the power balance between the characters themselves are a bit messed up now.
Madara is taking on 5 Kages, I understand that he was from an era of stronger ninjas, but the fact that he's taking on all 5 of them without breaking a sweat is a bit too much. He's died carelessly knowing he had the Edo Tensei, but even without that now, his complete Susano and clones are already beating the shit out of the Kages. The fights not even close...
I admit I've had this complaint since the Pain arc when he pretty much destroys a country on his own, but I'll contribute that to Konoha not having enough ninjas near Pain's level. Also, Pain's use of body doubles enabled him to fight large groups of ninja better. With Madara though, even really strong ninja like Kakashi wouldn't even be able to beat half of him or maybe even a fourth. Having a character like that makes the other characters seem so weak. Even with all Naruto's improvement, he never seemed like he was much higher than a Kage class ninja, and now we have a ninja that destroys Kage leveled ninja.
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EPT
