EPTWhat Are You Reading 2015 - Page 41
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21242 Posts
In terms of translation, I would agree with the (consensus?) view that the newer John Woods translations are superior to the old HT Lowe Porter translations. | ||
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Exoplanet
9 Posts
Im quite split about Doctor Faustus. There is the fact that Mann copied large parts of the (admittedly fascinating) musical analysis word for word out of Adornos letters and didn't even fully understand all of the technicalities (a couple of times he couldnt read Adornos handwriting and put in words that dont make any sense whatsoever haha). On the other hand as a proper German I'm in love with the Faust-saga (Faust II by Geothe contains like the best writing and human analysis ever) and loved how Mann managed to tie in the "Faust-stuff" with his central notion of sickness elevating artists (maybe even being a prerequisite for art). And when it comes to intertextuality nothing beats reading Iwan Karamasow vs Devil and Adrian Leverkühn vs Devil. The more standard (Proustlike) depiction of Munichs society felt sometimes out of place (might just be the case of me being annoyed to read about some dinner society meeting in every second 19/20 century novel lol) So i think i prefer Joseph because it's somewhat lighter and not so much concerned with artists, rather with stories.. regarding the list, it has a lot of the best, but as soon as you put Sword of Shannara on it, you disqualify yourself! (i read the first book of these utter crap novels when I was like 12 and still liked Eragon and stuff and nearly had to vomit when they reached the Moria ripoff, i didnt continue from there.... | ||
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Exoplanet
9 Posts
Ed. Come to think of it, the english language is most likely completely unsuited for Manns style. The way sentences work in English is like the polar opposite of how Mann likes to create his monsters.. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
I'll note that, thanks Exoplanet  Have just read Death in Venice by Mann so far though, and I was not enthusiastic, but I have to retry him, and I like the premise.Almost finished with what's been translated of Man ohne Eigenschaften, even Musil's draft are dope. Pretty clear why this is so underestimated by french litt teachers though, it's almost philosophy ! | ||
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Exoplanet
9 Posts
Death in venice is the worst entry point for Mann (its popularity can only be explained by german teachers liking it because its short and suited for easy "interpretation"; and the Mann=gay part..if you know his other works I really wouldn't give too much thought about what he failed to do there (even the title is very unlike Mann, unfitting, just horrible) If you are interested in the culmination and turning point for the german "Gesellschaftsroman" (social novel maybe, ist that a term?) the Buddenbrooks are unfallable (but also very tame in many ways) Magic mountain on the other hand (if you want to put a label on it, it certainly contains elemens of a Bildungsroman..) is quite universal and a good starting point, the clashes/ discourses between Settembrini (italian freemason) and Naphta (jewish jesuit, brilliant fanatic) make it mandatory reading alone actually in Infinite Jest the dicussions of Marathe and Steeply on the stone (best parts of the book honestly) feel like a direct continuation from magic mountainDoes the french translation also contain the (unpuplished) chapters 39-58 (book 2 part 3) of Mann ohne Eigenschaften, i hope so, because the published part really lets you hanging.. (but if you have acces to the drafts that should be the case..) I rly dont know what to read after Joseph, I think i am in the mood for some historical thriller (think name of the rose) any suggestions? I need to post in some other threads as well now, but in dota there is only drama going on......... | ||
Flicky
England2657 Posts
I am currently reading Harry Mulisch's The Discovery of Heaven (De ontdekking van de hemel) and it's quite wonderful. had never heard of it before, but it was a friend's favourite novel. I find it hard to read much more than an hour of it at a time, but still very enjoyable. | ||
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sperY
Serbia444 Posts
Damn I love this series. Almost half way into the book and majority of old characters appear Lot of past things explained, that were pretty unclear from first three books. I like the way its going so far. | ||
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
On August 19 2015 18:44 Exoplanet wrote: As the list was voted on, i wouldn't judge it too much on what is missing from it or how they sorted it (no person in their sane mind would put 1984 among the best sci fi books, if it were to publish such a list; and a lot of the really interesting sci fi is niche; how could Tau zero for example ever get any votes..). Just out of interest, why does 1984 not belong in this list? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17852 Posts
On August 19 2015 18:44 Exoplanet wrote: As the list was voted on, i wouldn't judge it too much on what is missing from it or how they sorted it (no person in their sane mind would put 1984 among the best sci fi books, if it were to publish such a list; and a lot of the really interesting sci fi is niche; how could Tau zero for example ever get any votes..). Death in venice is the worst entry point for Mann (its popularity can only be explained by german teachers liking it because its short and suited for easy "interpretation"; and the Mann=gay part..if you know his other works I really wouldn't give too much thought about what he failed to do there (even the title is very unlike Mann, unfitting, just horrible) If you are interested in the culmination and turning point for the german "Gesellschaftsroman" (social novel maybe, ist that a term?) the Buddenbrooks are unfallable (but also very tame in many ways) Magic mountain on the other hand (if you want to put a label on it, it certainly contains elemens of a Bildungsroman..) is quite universal and a good starting point, the clashes/ discourses between Settembrini (italian freemason) and Naphta (jewish jesuit, brilliant fanatic) make it mandatory reading alone actually in Infinite Jest the dicussions of Marathe and Steeply on the stone (best parts of the book honestly) feel like a direct continuation from magic mountainDoes the french translation also contain the (unpuplished) chapters 39-58 (book 2 part 3) of Mann ohne Eigenschaften, i hope so, because the published part really lets you hanging.. (but if you have acces to the drafts that should be the case..) I rly dont know what to read after Joseph, I think i am in the mood for some historical thriller (think name of the rose) any suggestions? I need to post in some other threads as well now, but in dota there is only drama going on......... If it were up to me, 1984 would definitely be in a list of the top 100 scifi+fantasy novels. In fact, it would probably be in my top 10 (debatable). And I'm sure the New Statesman author would chalk that up to nostalgia, but I think that is flatout wrong: it's because the critique of society is so obviously still valid (maybe even more so than in the 40s when Welles wrote the book), and the book is a brilliant exposé of it. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21242 Posts
On August 19 2015 07:02 Exoplanet wrote: Sure I will discuss Mann with pleasure, the old translation misses the tone and style of the Joseph books completely (its like a weird medieval biblical english, not elegant at all, while in german it's reinventing archaic language to become light and even funny, its far less philosophical than the discurses in the magic mountain for example). Im quite split about Doctor Faustus. There is the fact that Mann copied large parts of the (admittedly fascinating) musical analysis word for word out of Adornos letters and didn't even fully understand all of the technicalities (a couple of times he couldnt read Adornos handwriting and put in words that dont make any sense whatsoever haha). On the other hand as a proper German I'm in love with the Faust-saga (Faust II by Geothe contains like the best writing and human analysis ever) and loved how Mann managed to tie in the "Faust-stuff" with his central notion of sickness elevating artists (maybe even being a prerequisite for art). And when it comes to intertextuality nothing beats reading Iwan Karamasow vs Devil and Adrian Leverkühn vs Devil. The more standard (Proustlike) depiction of Munichs society felt sometimes out of place (might just be the case of me being annoyed to read about some dinner society meeting in every second 19/20 century novel lol) So i think i prefer Joseph because it's somewhat lighter and not so much concerned with artists, rather with stories.. regarding the list, it has a lot of the best, but as soon as you put Sword of Shannara on it, you disqualify yourself! (i read the first book of these utter crap novels when I was like 12 and still liked Eragon and stuff and nearly had to vomit when they reached the Moria ripoff, i didnt continue from there.... Well that's unfortunate, since the focus on art, artists, and artistry is one of my favorite parts of Mann novels. I'm a sucker for ~meta~ things  As a classical music fan, I thought the music parts were fine in Doctor Faustus. Adorno's musical analysis wasn't always the most cogent either, so I'm not particularly upset by slight misinterpretation or misrecording of his words. I particularly enjoyed Kretzschmar's lecture of Beethoven's Piano Sonata 32. Faust is excellent. I always cite it as my favorite work of the western canon. It's unfortunate that Faust/Goethe's reputation has diminished greatly in America over the past decade. On August 19 2015 07:09 Exoplanet wrote: Manns language/ style is like one of the most discussed topics among German scholars i think (im not studying literature just law..) i personally love his general style (very long exact sentences he worked on -- thats why i think u can translate him quite well) but its never a revelation like Kafka for example. Still his style has never really been replicated and in the Joseph books he creates an entirely new (readable!) form of expression (very playful and rich). Ed. Come to think of it, the english language is most likely completely unsuited for Manns style. The way sentences work in English is like the polar opposite of how Mann likes to create his monsters.. I don't predict myself ever becoming fluent in German, so unfortunately I'll have to make do with English | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21242 Posts
On August 19 2015 18:44 Exoplanet wrote: As the list was voted on, i wouldn't judge it too much on what is missing from it or how they sorted it (no person in their sane mind would put 1984 among the best sci fi books, if it were to publish such a list; and a lot of the really interesting sci fi is niche; how could Tau zero for example ever get any votes..). The fact that it's niche means it probably won't win any popularity/voting based awards/lists soon  Death in venice is the worst entry point for Mann (its popularity can only be explained by german teachers liking it because its short and suited for easy "interpretation"; and the Mann=gay part..if you know his other works I really wouldn't give too much thought about what he failed to do there (even the title is very unlike Mann, unfitting, just horrible) If you are interested in the culmination and turning point for the german "Gesellschaftsroman" (social novel maybe, ist that a term?) the Buddenbrooks are unfallable (but also very tame in many ways) Magic mountain on the other hand (if you want to put a label on it, it certainly contains elemens of a Bildungsroman..) is quite universal and a good starting point, the clashes/ discourses between Settembrini (italian freemason) and Naphta (jewish jesuit, brilliant fanatic) make it mandatory reading alone actually in Infinite Jest the dicussions of Marathe and Steeply on the stone (best parts of the book honestly) feel like a direct continuation from magic mountainHm, I quite liked Death in Venice personally. Why do you say it's a poor starting point for Mann? It encroaches on many of the themes that would repeat themselves in Mann's later works, specifically the relationship of art to life and the role of the artist in the world; death and decay as a result of culture/art/society, etc. I also found a nice quality of elegiac beauty in the story. And, certainly, its length is probably a plus in terms of introducing brand new readers to Mann who might shy away from the monstrous, erudite tomes like The Magic Mountain. On August 19 2015 19:05 Flicky wrote: I am currently reading Harry Mulisch's The Discovery of Heaven (De ontdekking van de hemel) and it's quite wonderful. had never heard of it before, but it was a friend's favourite novel. I find it hard to read much more than an hour of it at a time, but still very enjoyable. I read Mulisch's The Assault and hated it so much that the mere mention of Mulisch triggers me these days On August 19 2015 21:46 phagga wrote: Just out of interest, why does 1984 not belong in this list? On August 19 2015 22:33 Acrofales wrote: If it were up to me, 1984 would definitely be in a list of the top 100 scifi+fantasy novels. In fact, it would probably be in my top 10 (debatable). I found 1984 to be heavy handed and uninteresting. As a sci-fi work, its relation to science and speculation is marginal at best, and it doesn't carry the same grace and beauty that something like Roadside Picnic does. I would also exclude it from a top 100 sci fi list. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21242 Posts
On August 19 2015 18:44 Exoplanet wrote: I rly dont know what to read after Joseph, I think i am in the mood for some historical thriller (think name of the rose) any suggestions? Name of the Rose is excellent, but I'm not sure if I'd classify it under historical thriller. In any case if you enjoy Mann then Eco should be a perfectly fine choice. | ||
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farvacola
United States18819 Posts
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On August 19 2015 18:44 Exoplanet wrote: As the list was voted on, i wouldn't judge it too much on what is missing from it or how they sorted it (no person in their sane mind would put 1984 among the best sci fi books, if it were to publish such a list; and a lot of the really interesting sci fi is niche; how could Tau zero for example ever get any votes..). Death in venice is the worst entry point for Mann (its popularity can only be explained by german teachers liking it because its short and suited for easy "interpretation"; and the Mann=gay part..if you know his other works I really wouldn't give too much thought about what he failed to do there (even the title is very unlike Mann, unfitting, just horrible) If you are interested in the culmination and turning point for the german "Gesellschaftsroman" (social novel maybe, ist that a term?) the Buddenbrooks are unfallable (but also very tame in many ways) Magic mountain on the other hand (if you want to put a label on it, it certainly contains elemens of a Bildungsroman..) is quite universal and a good starting point, the clashes/ discourses between Settembrini (italian freemason) and Naphta (jewish jesuit, brilliant fanatic) make it mandatory reading alone actually in Infinite Jest the dicussions of Marathe and Steeply on the stone (best parts of the book honestly) feel like a direct continuation from magic mountainDoes the french translation also contain the (unpuplished) chapters 39-58 (book 2 part 3) of Mann ohne Eigenschaften, i hope so, because the published part really lets you hanging.. (but if you have acces to the drafts that should be the case..) I rly dont know what to read after Joseph, I think i am in the mood for some historical thriller (think name of the rose) any suggestions? I need to post in some other threads as well now, but in dota there is only drama going on......... Yes, my version had those, first translation by the awesome Philippe Jaccottet even had it, they just took some more drafts and classed them in a way that doesn't make it sound like the ending was definitive, closer to latest german editions apparently. Thanks for your explanation, I probably feel closer to you than to Csheep  I'll probably try Magic Mountain too. The german tradition of Bildungsroman really is awesome. I'd have to reread Faust also, part II proably flew over my head when I was 19 :/ | ||
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Exoplanet
9 Posts
Hm, I quite liked Death in Venice personally. Why do you say it's a poor starting point for Mann? It encroaches on many of the themes that would repeat themselves in Mann's later works, specifically the relationship of art to life and the role of the artist in the world; death and decay as a result of culture/art/society, etc. I also found a nice quality of elegiac beauty in the story. And, certainly, its length is probably a plus in terms of introducing brand new readers to Mann who might shy away from the monstrous, erudite tomes like The Magic Mountain. I actually dont think Death in venice is bad (I am just used to react to it very harshly when people mention Mann and bring it up immediately; e.g. when i was at school and already a Mann fan I got so angry when our teacher tried to "explain" Mann to us through Death in venice) I personally don't rate it that highly excactly due to the reason you mentioned: his "ideas" are too evident. I've always felt that while - of course - being important, his ideas and themes get too much attention. I think Mann is at his greatest when he lets his characters do the thinking (Settembrini - Naphta or that passage in Dr. Faustus where Leverkühn describes his imaginary deep-sea dives in a submarine..that was so utterly amazing) As a classical music fan, I thought the music parts were fine in Doctor Faustus. Adorno's musical analysis wasn't always the most cogent either, so I'm not particularly upset by slight misinterpretation or misrecording of his words. I particularly enjoyed Kretzschmar's lecture of Beethoven's Piano Sonata 32. I too like the musical parts, but when "judging" the book, it has always somehow bothered me that Mann might have become a little too ambitious with his musical theory... Now Joseph certainly is "meta" too, it's after all about storytelling, culture, myths and individualism, but not as up-front/ far less theoretical than his other works. And coming back to my point that Mann's ideas are overemphasized: isnt it ironic that the central work of his life (he spent his whole akmé writing the Joseph books) is nearly always forgotten when talking about Mann.. he accomplished true mastery not when thinking about artists but when exploring stories (yeah im being overly dramatic) I'd have to reread Faust also, part II proably flew over my head when I was 19 :/ There are parts in Faust II where I ask myself how a human being could put so much thought into a language as energetic and resonating and there are parts where all the references and sudden changes make me feel really, really lost... Im going to buy name of the rose now, i think i watched the movie a long, long time ago, and the only thing i remember was feeling extremely creeped out by some kind of sex scene?, while watching it with my mother (was like 12 or sth) and i know the "clue" of course (poison on the pages of Aristotle...) | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
I liked that some of the elements from Dune were expanded upon, which helped to flesh out certain aspects of the world, but felt as though some details were omitted which might have made the time jump from the first novel clearer. The plot felt more involved than in Dune, which was nice. Unfortunately, most of the characters remain flat, and the writing is repetitive and sometimes a slog to get through. I'll be continuing the rest of the Dune series, but for now I've started reading Neil Gaiman's American Gods. On August 13 2015 07:47 Acrofales wrote: On the contrary. While Dune had its excellent worldbuilding and a somewhat interesting plot to lift you through the drag of Frank Herbert's awful writing, there is absolutely nothing redeeming about Messiah. I cannot say anything about the other 2, because Messiah put me off reading another Dune novel for the rest of my life. It was funny, I was actually in a bookstore holding a copy of Messiah when I opened the thread for some recommendations and saw your post. I hope it didn't colour my perception of the novel going in, haha. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
How did the conservative ideas of Friedrich Hayek and the Austrian school become our economic reality? By turning the market into the realm of great politics and morals. | ||
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