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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On March 04 2012 17:13 mmp wrote:Book 4-5 questions for discussion: + Show Spoiler +- In book 4, why does the prologue feature one of Arya's assassin dudes (recall, the gold coin traded for iron, a similar death (biting the coin) as Arya uses in book 5). What was the whole deal with stealing iron, and is it related to anything else (assassins lurking in Oldtown, perhaps relevant to Sam's training in book 6... 7... )?
- In book 5, why do Varys+Illyrio send Tyrion to join Griff's company to Volantis? At face value: Tyrion says he dislikes Griff's plan, convinces Griff that it's better to just go home... Illyrio says that Varys spoke highly of Tyrion's intellect, Varys makes his support for Griff known in the epilogue... are we to believe that Varys intended for Griff to make it to Daenarys, and Tyrion simply foiled this plan? If not, did Varys have a hidden intention for Tyrion (e.g. to persuade Griff that dragon-hunting was foolish and to return to Westeros asap)? I feel like GRRM pulled the Griff plot out of his ass just to fill the void the war of 5 kings left behind, but no doubt he can salt the plot in later books with invented details if he wants to sow distrust between Tyrion & Varys.
- Do you think GRRM has too many story archs for his own good? Book 6 has the following to work with, not counting new characters:
- Bran
- Jon Snow (presumably dead, just when he was starting to get interesting)
- Sam + Sphinx
- Asha + Theon (+ Mance?)
- Davos (what good is he if Stannis is dead?)
- Aeron vs Euron (if anyone still cares)
- Victarion (this guy kicks ass)
- Myrcella + Nymeria, and the Dornish plot
- Tyrion + Penny + Jorah
- Griff + Aegon
- Jaime + Brienne vs Catelyn/Beric/Thoros/(Gendry?)
- Selmy the Hand
- Daenarys
- Quentyn's men, on Selmy's little mission
- Cersei + Tyrells
- Alayne Stone + Petyr
- Salty/Cat/No one
Am I forgetting anybody?
The dude in the prologue for book 4 is Jaqen H'ghar according to this
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jaqen_H'ghar
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On March 04 2012 18:23 hugedong wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 17:13 mmp wrote:Book 4-5 questions for discussion: + Show Spoiler +- In book 4, why does the prologue feature one of Arya's assassin dudes (recall, the gold coin traded for iron, a similar death (biting the coin) as Arya uses in book 5). What was the whole deal with stealing iron, and is it related to anything else (assassins lurking in Oldtown, perhaps relevant to Sam's training in book 6... 7... )?
- In book 5, why do Varys+Illyrio send Tyrion to join Griff's company to Volantis? At face value: Tyrion says he dislikes Griff's plan, convinces Griff that it's better to just go home... Illyrio says that Varys spoke highly of Tyrion's intellect, Varys makes his support for Griff known in the epilogue... are we to believe that Varys intended for Griff to make it to Daenarys, and Tyrion simply foiled this plan? If not, did Varys have a hidden intention for Tyrion (e.g. to persuade Griff that dragon-hunting was foolish and to return to Westeros asap)? I feel like GRRM pulled the Griff plot out of his ass just to fill the void the war of 5 kings left behind, but no doubt he can salt the plot in later books with invented details if he wants to sow distrust between Tyrion & Varys.
- Do you think GRRM has too many story archs for his own good? Book 6 has the following to work with, not counting new characters:
- Bran
- Jon Snow (presumably dead, just when he was starting to get interesting)
- Sam + Sphinx
- Asha + Theon (+ Mance?)
- Davos (what good is he if Stannis is dead?)
- Aeron vs Euron (if anyone still cares)
- Victarion (this guy kicks ass)
- Myrcella + Nymeria, and the Dornish plot
- Tyrion + Penny + Jorah
- Griff + Aegon
- Jaime + Brienne vs Catelyn/Beric/Thoros/(Gendry?)
- Selmy the Hand
- Daenarys
- Quentyn's men, on Selmy's little mission
- Cersei + Tyrells
- Alayne Stone + Petyr
- Salty/Cat/No one
Am I forgetting anybody?
The dude in the prologue for book 4 is Jaqen H'ghar according to this http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jaqen_H'ghar
GRRM has the perfect number, I reckon most of them will collide and he'll end up with 4 main strong storylines or so
I think most of them will end up with Daenerys or Jon as they seem to be becoming the stories 2 main characters at some point what with Jon being Azor Ahi and part Targeryn and Daenerys having Dragons which are pretty good against the Others
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Ok ok, so then what is up with Patchface? That guy scares me the most.
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On March 04 2012 18:55 mmp wrote:
Ok ok, so then what is up with Patchface? That guy scares me the most.
Living life with half a dead face isn't a good life for a princess, life loses it's thrills
thus patchface
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On March 04 2012 18:59 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 18:55 mmp wrote:
Ok ok, so then what is up with Patchface? That guy scares me the most. Living life with half a dead face isn't a good life for a princess, life loses it's thrills thus patchface
His songs. He knows, he knows!
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It very well could be Jaquen H'agar, i still think that prologue will gain importance in Sam's storyline.
You were speaking about Varrys's plan regarding Tyrion, and i answered to that. What does Tyrion have to do with Dragons? That's a different question, some speculate he will end up as one of the 3 riders, some even speculate that he has Targaryan heritage because of how he is drawn to dragons ever since he was a child, and studies them and dreams about them.
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Most worrisome question - will GRRM manage to FINISH the damn series before he drops, or is he going to pull a Jordan on us?
I mean, he did just make us wait 6 damn years for a new book, and if not for HBO I don't know that we wouldn't still be waiting on it.
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On March 04 2012 19:11 felisconcolori wrote:
Most worrisome question - will GRRM manage to FINISH the damn series before he drops, or is he going to pull a Jordan on us?
I mean, he did just make us wait 6 damn years for a new book, and if not for HBO I don't know that we wouldn't still be waiting on it.
This is also my biggest concern. And i'm sure he canot finish it in 2 more books, im expecting an announcement form him within a year that he'll have to make 8 or 9. Remember, first he wanted 3 books, than he wrote the first which ended up being close to 2k pages (1st, 2nd, and the half of the third book)
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On March 04 2012 19:02 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 18:59 Denzil wrote:On March 04 2012 18:55 mmp wrote:
Ok ok, so then what is up with Patchface? That guy scares me the most. Living life with half a dead face isn't a good life for a princess, life loses it's thrills thus patchface His songs. He knows, he knows!
oh oh oh!
+ Show Spoiler +
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On March 04 2012 19:13 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 19:11 felisconcolori wrote:
Most worrisome question - will GRRM manage to FINISH the damn series before he drops, or is he going to pull a Jordan on us?
I mean, he did just make us wait 6 damn years for a new book, and if not for HBO I don't know that we wouldn't still be waiting on it.
This is also my biggest concern. And i'm sure he canot finish it in 2 more books, im expecting an announcement form him within a year that he'll have to make 8 or 9. Remember, first he wanted 3 books, than he wrote the first which ended up being close to 2k pages (1st, 2nd, and the half of the third book)
The books correlate in this way. His originally planned first book is actually just book 1. Planned book 2 is clash/storm. Then what he was planning for the last book is the tail end of DwD and the last 2 books now. Feast and most of DWD wasnt ever planned and is part of the reason for most of the delays.
It might be too much optimism but GRRM has said from here on out the threads of the story will start coming together instead of coming apart. We have spent 4?5? thousand pages of a story that cant ever seem to diverge more and stay somewhat on point, but still does. I'd like to think that once things start coming together it becomes possible for it to be finished in his current plan of 2 books.
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Sandor the Monk versus FrankenGregor would be the an amazing fight. Up until I found out that there is a possiblilty of this happening I didn't really care if Sandor had died or not but now I really hope that he is the novice on the Quiet Isle.
Also I'm a bit confused about why everyone is so worried about GRRM dying before finishing the last two books. He's only 63, even if he took another 6 years for each book he'd still be below the average life expectancy. I mean I guess since Robert Jordan died when he was younger than GRRM is now there's some reason to be worried, but the chances of GRRM getting a fatal disease are probably quite a bit lower than the chances of him being fine.
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Russian Federation1401 Posts
well, GRMM is obese... and he is probably not writing cause he is enjoying his last years of fame and fortune. Both of these factors increase fatal disease risk by a lot!
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On March 04 2012 20:21 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 19:02 mmp wrote:On March 04 2012 18:59 Denzil wrote:On March 04 2012 18:55 mmp wrote:
Ok ok, so then what is up with Patchface? That guy scares me the most. Living life with half a dead face isn't a good life for a princess, life loses it's thrills thus patchface His songs. He knows, he knows! oh oh oh! + Show Spoiler +
I'm willing to bet he's feasted beneath the waves , in the watery halls of the drowned god. What is dead can never die...
well, GRMM is obese... and he is probably not writing cause he is enjoying his last years of fame and fortune. Both of these factors increase fatal disease risk by a lot!
Very classy "Fork".
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On March 04 2012 19:08 Geo.Rion wrote:It very well could be Jaquen H'agar, i still think that prologue will gain importance in Sam's storyline. You were speaking about Varrys's plan regarding Tyrion, and i answered to that. What does Tyrion have to do with Dragons? That's a different question, some speculate he will end up as one of the 3 riders, some even speculate that he has Targaryan heritage because of how he is drawn to dragons ever since he was a child, and studies them and dreams about them.
(2)
You didn't answer my question. My question is why did Varys send Tyrion on the dragon hunt? At face value, he wanted Tyrion to assist Daenerys in her conquest & return to Westeros (this is through Illyrio). Then, his river companions are none other than Griff & Aegon, who wish to secure Daenerys's support (was this part of Varys's plan, or Illyrio's, or both?). But does that reasoning actually hold up? I don't think it does. Tyrion stays on his quest, but convinces Aegon that the time for conquest is now and Daenerys won't share power with him (was this part of Varys's plan, Illyrio's, both, or neither?). Aegon enlists the Golden Company, attacks Westeros, meanwhile Varys murders Kevan & Pycelle.
With those considerations in mind, what does Casterly Rock have to do with Griff or Daenerys? Nothing.
Varys orchestrated a genuine plot to kill Daenerys.
Tyrion is a loose cannon, and has inconvenienced Varys by killing Tywin.
Illyrio tells Tyrion that Varys spoke highly of his intellect.
Tyrion doesn't trust Illyrio or Varys.
So the big question is... what is the relationship between Varys and Illyrio?
You have two covert powers on opposite sides of the Narrow Sea. Varys appears to be in it for Griff, as the end of book 5 suggests. Illyrio gave Daenerys protection, Drogo, and her dragons, while Varys went along with a plot to kill her. Griff's company meet Illyrio on the road to escort Tyrion (Varys ought to have known about this plan, no?). I don't think Illyrio & Varys are on the same team, so what does that make Tyrion to them? An asset or liability?
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On March 05 2012 04:58 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 19:08 Geo.Rion wrote:It very well could be Jaquen H'agar, i still think that prologue will gain importance in Sam's storyline. You were speaking about Varrys's plan regarding Tyrion, and i answered to that. What does Tyrion have to do with Dragons? That's a different question, some speculate he will end up as one of the 3 riders, some even speculate that he has Targaryan heritage because of how he is drawn to dragons ever since he was a child, and studies them and dreams about them. (2) You didn't answer my question. My question is why did Varys send Tyrion on the dragon hunt? At face value, he wanted Tyrion to assist Daenerys in her conquest & return to Westeros (this is through Illyrio). Then, his river companions are none other than Griff & Aegon, who wish to secure Daenerys's support (was this part of Varys's plan, or Illyrio's, or both?). But does that reasoning actually hold up? I don't think it does. Tyrion stays on his quest, but convinces Aegon that the time for conquest is now and Daenerys won't share power with him (was this part of Varys's plan, Illyrio's, both, or neither?). With those considerations in mind, what does Casterly Rock have to do with Griff or Daenerys? Nothing. Varys orchestrated a genuine plot to kill Daenerys. Tyrion is a loose cannon, and has inconvenienced Varys by killing Tywin. Illyrio tells Tyrion that Varys spoke highly of his intellect. Tyrion doesn't trust Illyrio or Varys. So the big question is... what is the relationship between Varys and Illyrio?
Did Varys actually intend to kill Dany via the poisoner? It seems pretty evident to me that he tipped off ser Jorah to the assassin so that he would keep Dany safe. Then the poisoning plot would serve him 2 fold. 1. He maintains a veil of loyalty to Robert, thus keeping him safe and in a position of influence. 2. It gets Drogo all riled up and motivated him to march on Westeros.
Also was killing Tywin an inconvenience to Varys. It seems to me from the epilogue to ADWD that Tywin's death served him just as well, if not better, than Kevan's.
Was the story of Varys and Illyrio's boyhood friendship and mutual rise to wealth and power not convincing enough? I'm more concerned with their true motivations for wanting a targaryen on the iron throne.
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I'm not sure I agree with the idea that Vary's wants Dany dead. I will say that , of all the characters in the novel, his motives are probably the hardest to pin down.
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On March 04 2012 20:21 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 19:02 mmp wrote:On March 04 2012 18:59 Denzil wrote:On March 04 2012 18:55 mmp wrote:
Ok ok, so then what is up with Patchface? That guy scares me the most. Living life with half a dead face isn't a good life for a princess, life loses it's thrills thus patchface His songs. He knows, he knows! oh oh oh! + Show Spoiler +
Well, there is a quote in book 5 where Melisandre is saying that Patchface is very very evil. So I'm curious what Patchface really is.
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On March 05 2012 05:21 scudst0rm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 04:58 mmp wrote:On March 04 2012 19:08 Geo.Rion wrote:It very well could be Jaquen H'agar, i still think that prologue will gain importance in Sam's storyline. You were speaking about Varrys's plan regarding Tyrion, and i answered to that. What does Tyrion have to do with Dragons? That's a different question, some speculate he will end up as one of the 3 riders, some even speculate that he has Targaryan heritage because of how he is drawn to dragons ever since he was a child, and studies them and dreams about them. (2) You didn't answer my question. My question is why did Varys send Tyrion on the dragon hunt? At face value, he wanted Tyrion to assist Daenerys in her conquest & return to Westeros (this is through Illyrio). Then, his river companions are none other than Griff & Aegon, who wish to secure Daenerys's support (was this part of Varys's plan, or Illyrio's, or both?). But does that reasoning actually hold up? I don't think it does. Tyrion stays on his quest, but convinces Aegon that the time for conquest is now and Daenerys won't share power with him (was this part of Varys's plan, Illyrio's, both, or neither?). With those considerations in mind, what does Casterly Rock have to do with Griff or Daenerys? Nothing. Varys orchestrated a genuine plot to kill Daenerys. Tyrion is a loose cannon, and has inconvenienced Varys by killing Tywin. Illyrio tells Tyrion that Varys spoke highly of his intellect. Tyrion doesn't trust Illyrio or Varys. So the big question is... what is the relationship between Varys and Illyrio? Did Varys actually intend to kill Dany via the poisoner? It seems pretty evident to me that he tipped off ser Jorah to the assassin so that he would keep Dany safe. Then the poisoning plot would serve him 2 fold. 1. He maintains a veil of loyalty to Robert, thus keeping him safe and in a position of influence. 2. It gets Drogo all riled up and motivated him to march on Westeros. Also was killing Tywin an inconvenience to Varys. It seems to me from the epilogue to ADWD that Tywin's death served him just as well, if not better, than Kevan's. Was the story of Varys and Illyrio's boyhood friendship and mutual rise to wealth and power not convincing enough? I'm more concerned with their true motivations for wanting a targaryen on the iron throne.
He did not tip off Ser Jorah, so much as Ser Jorah genuinely believed that by killing Dany he would get a pardon home. In book 3, Jorah confesses that he was a part of the plot, but changed his mind after he fell in love. So there is the effect that Jorah looks like the hero, and by some mastermind prompted Drogo into hating Westeros, but I think it all came down to Jorah deciding not to let her die, which means that the pardon offer was sincere. To argue Varys's intention was to keep Dany alive & motivate Drogo, you'd have to include Jorah's misgivings in the planning, which is a stretch of logic in my opinion.
If Tyrion's reasoning is sound, then Daenerys won't share power with Aegon, or at least cannot be trusted to make her move any time soon, hence the need to enlist the Golden Company and attack now. If that's so logical, why didn't Illyrio suggest it? Why not Varys? As GRRM introduces the characters, Griff has been waiting for an opportunity in Westeros & hesitating for Aegon's safety. But if Tyrion's right, and trying to tow Dany is foolish, then does that make Illyrio & Varys fools?
The boyhood friendship story? I'm sure that's 100% truthful.
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