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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
 StarLadder StarLadder/i-League Invitational/5StreamsFormat
Teams!![[image loading]](/staff/Julmust/lr_threads/team_logos/234x90/no_logo.png){kind=logo} ![[image loading]](/staff/Julmust/lr_threads/team_logos/234x90/navi.png) ![[image loading]](/staff/tehh4ck3r/team_logos/kinguin.png) ![[image loading]](/staff/Julmust/lr_threads/team_logos/234x90/Team_VGJ.png) ![[image loading]](/staff/Julmust/lr_threads/team_logos/234x90/vega.png) ![[image loading]](/staff/tehh4ck3r/team_logos/optic_white.png) ![[image loading]](/staff/Julmust/lr_threads/team_logos/234x90/sg.png) ![[image loading]](/staff/Julmust/lr_threads/team_logos/234x90/fnatic.png) Fixtures & ResultsThursday, Apr 12 12:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) Thursday, Apr 12 3:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) Winners Match ![[image loading]](/staff/Nixer/other/tba_white.png) ![[image loading]](https://i.gyazo.com/9fa68d31242c2837aa52f4e0297bd98c.png) CSS: FO-nTTaX Awesomeness: Panda Banner: StarLadder | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
For Day 1, VGJ.T has a lot to prove. They went 2-5 in their DAC group then got dumpstered by TL, with only wins against Pain & Effect. And those weren't terribly convincing, either. VGJ.T is in a bad place and have a lot to prove. They should come out of the group, but Optic, in current form, should be the favorite in the group. However, FTM and Kinguin aren't scrubs. Optic & VGJ.T are the most likely to make it out of this group, but FTM or Kinguin getting out isn't any big upset. | ||
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Vertical
Indonesia4317 Posts
this is a true test for both of them where they'll be duking it out against a solid tier 3 team, Kinguin and Fly to Moon whose occasionally keep winning qualifiers. all in all I dont believe VGJT and Optic can fail getting through the group stage. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 12 2018 16:59 Vertical wrote: Optic and VGJ.T is a tier 2 team that peaked out at certain point otherwise just another tier 3 team. VGJ.T peak were a while ago at a major where stakes are high. With Optic peaked were recent. But I personally think Optic run in DAC is more as Chinese team being weak instead of them being good. for example Optic lost against Keen & OG. this is a true test for both of them where they'll be duking it out against a solid tier 3 team, Kinguin and Fly to Moon whose occasionally keep winning qualifiers. all in all I dont believe VGJT and Optic can fail getting through the group stage. Optic is a Tier 2 team and will likely remain there unless CCnC can find that next improvement. I'm not sure if VGJ.T still is, given how they looked at DAC. VGJ just looked on completely different pages and while I don't expect FTM to exploit that, if FTM wins, I wouldn't be shocked. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 12 2018 18:06 Pandemona wrote: FTM are unknown to right to an extent, yes they have played a few qualifiers, but there is limit knowledge on them in form of replays and such. That is always a big factor when you don't have much knowledge on a team and how the play. Full scale CIS attack style. This should be fun. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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Vertical
Indonesia4317 Posts
On April 12 2018 18:03 Taf the Ghost wrote: Optic is a Tier 2 team and will likely remain there unless CCnC can find that next improvement. I'm not sure if VGJ.T still is, given how they looked at DAC. VGJ just looked on completely different pages and while I don't expect FTM to exploit that, if FTM wins, I wouldn't be shocked. I was about to rate FTM as high as you are until I saw they're not so hot either in qualifier. They lost to Vega twice for MDL and GESC Thailand, and just realized their Epicenter qualifier is from Madness Qualifier, meaning they also lost CIS qualifier. So FTM is not that stable, but so is VGJ.T. But if I had to choose between 2 unstable team, I'd choose the one that have two 2nd place in DPC tournament. Optic as I said, they're just riding the general Chinese under performance in DAC. This is also same thing happen to CoL during Shanghai major where Chinese team flopping and CoL placed really well, then we all know how CoL ends up. So Optic currently is tier 2, but I'll hold my hype until their result in Epicenter XL | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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Vertical
Indonesia4317 Posts
On April 12 2018 18:30 Pandemona wrote: They beat Vega in the EPICENTER madness qualifier though and obviously beat Vega in this qualifier as well. MDL Changsa qualifier is the only one they have lost recently to what i can see. The ESL Birmingham qualifiers will be soon, if they win that qualifier then they are defo a good force in CIS. sure they do won these qualifiers. I'm not saying Vega is 100% better than them. I'm saying FTM is not that great. It's not like Optic tearing every latest qualifier where even EG a super solid tier 2, is in it. btw, is there a delay? EDIT: ok I need to correct myself, apparently even Optic aren't so dominant in NA qualifier losing to VGJ.S and CoL. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 12 2018 18:25 Vertical wrote: I was about to rate FTM as high as you are until I saw they're not so hot either in qualifier. They lost to Vega twice for MDL and another one I dont remember. A lot of "Regionality" this year in the scenes, so we'll see. I still expect VGJ.T to win, but they looked pretty bad at DAC. They came in 6th in their group and couldn't beat iG. While a bit steep of a drop-off from Bucharest, it wasn't unexpected. Their 2nd place there was a gift from Slacks more than anything else. The GESC:Indonesia they got passed Fnatic, should have lost to Infamous and got stomped by EG. The important question, since it's China vs CIS, is "can VGJ.T hold their rax to 35 minutes?". VGJ.T should have better Late Game, but they have to get there to win. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 12 2018 18:32 Vertical wrote: sure they do won these qualifiers. I'm not saying Vega is 100% better than them. I'm saying FTM is not that great. It's not like Optic tearing every latest qualifier where even EG a super solid tier 2, is in it. btw, is there a delay? Delay. Not sure why. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
 Gief dota!Oh we are in draft xD | ||
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Vertical
Indonesia4317 Posts
On April 12 2018 18:33 Taf the Ghost wrote: A lot of "Regionality" this year in the scenes, so we'll see. I still expect VGJ.T to win, but they looked pretty bad at DAC. They came in 6th in their group and couldn't beat iG. While a bit steep of a drop-off from Bucharest, it wasn't unexpected. Their 2nd place there was a gift from Slacks more than anything else. The GESC:Indonesia they got passed Fnatic, should have lost to Infamous and got stomped by EG. The important question, since it's China vs CIS, is "can VGJ.T hold their rax to 35 minutes?". VGJ.T should have better Late Game, but they have to get there to win. yes I completely agree with this. just with different wording  do you mind clarify what gift from slacks that you mean? | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 12 2018 18:36 Vertical wrote: yes I completely agree with this. just with different wording do you mind clarify what gift from slacks that you mean? PGL/Bucharest Major/2018VGJ.T Plays: VG, Secret & TNC in the Swiss Group Stage. And TNC threw their game really, really hard with some bad mistakes. Then, in bracket, they beat TNC 2-1, got lucky that Newbee beat Secret and got utterly stomped by VP. That's why I said Slacks did more for them. They got a fairly easy group stage, one blessed throw their direction, Newbee finding a weakness in Secret and TNC wasn't quite ready to win big Bo3s on LAN. (TNC is better now than then.) | ||
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Vertical
Indonesia4317 Posts
On April 12 2018 18:46 Taf the Ghost wrote: PGL/Bucharest Major/2018VGJ.T Plays: VG, Secret & TNC in the Swiss Group Stage. And TNC threw their game really, really hard with some bad mistakes. Then, in bracket, they beat TNC 2-1, got lucky that Newbee beat Secret and got utterly stomped by VP. That's why I said Slacks did more for them. They got a fairly easy group stage, one blessed throw their direction, Newbee finding a weakness in Secret and TNC wasn't quite ready to win big Bo3s on LAN. (TNC is better now than then.) ah you're meme'ing the swiss format yeah that format suck I despise it soo much honestly that TNC "throw" is a meta changing game ever since that game rapier is a common build for example we're seeing Luna & Gyro team already winning and still buying it | ||
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babysimba
10466 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 12 2018 18:51 babysimba wrote: Treant died to tower and fed 126 gold each x 5 heroes. Did I see wrongly lol Not sure. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 12 2018 19:13 Pandemona wrote: Ok not if they fight like that they wont. They were very split up and attacking differnet heroes. They clearly haven't played against Willow enough, that's really what's causing them issues. And they're definitely a Tier 3 team, though that doesn't mean they can't win this. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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babysimba
10466 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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babysimba
10466 Posts
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babysimba
10466 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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OmniEulogy
Canada6600 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
CIS really does like the treant and like you say, just keeps the towers alive whilst also being good in the lane. Oh it's also a walking ward! | ||
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Vertical
Indonesia4317 Posts
On April 12 2018 19:36 Taf the Ghost wrote: The core of the DAC meta was getting the Tier 1s down early so you could farm better until 25 minutes. Treant keeps T1s alive, which is why it helps. Also, big lockdown meta, so the pos 4 Treant worked. great nice insight | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 12 2018 19:43 Pandemona wrote: Plus the gyro has to be banned still because whilst it doesn't farm as well until it has levels it still is fine in the lane and as soon as its level 6, call down is just stupidly strong. CIS really does like the treant and like you say, just keeps the towers alive whilst also being good in the lane. Oh it's also a walking ward! Against the Tier 1 teams, I'm sure they'd have warded better and put more pressure on in the early game. Also, against Treant, you have to commit a bit more to taking towers, which VGJ.T just didn't do. They traded even in a few team fights or ahead, but they didn't 5-man the towers. Treant just isn't as useful when you take his towers early. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
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Vertical
Indonesia4317 Posts
On April 12 2018 19:51 Taf the Ghost wrote: Against the Tier 1 teams, I'm sure they'd have warded better and put more pressure on in the early game. Also, against Treant, you have to commit a bit more to taking towers, which VGJ.T just didn't do. They traded even in a few team fights or ahead, but they didn't 5-man the towers. Treant just isn't as useful when you take his towers early. okay you started to sound like a treant gay-boy now not that you're wrong though :p | ||
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Vertical
Indonesia4317 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 12 2018 20:02 Vertical wrote: is there another delay? ALWAYSWANNAFLY needed time to puke in a bucket. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 12 2018 18:33 Taf the Ghost wrote: The important question, since it's China vs CIS, is "can VGJ.T hold their rax to 35 minutes?". VGJ.T should have better Late Game, but they have to get there to win. Still will be! | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
Edit 1: VGJ.T stopped playing down to the competition. Edit 2: Maybe not. If FTM didn't draft themselves into such terrible lanes, they could have won this. As it stands, VGJ.T is just going to trip their way to the win. | ||
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Vertical
Indonesia4317 Posts
otherwise their treant cheese already got them through | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 12 2018 21:43 Vertical wrote: unfortunately for FTM this is not a BO1 otherwise their treant cheese already got them through Treant wasn't a cheese, just something VGJ.T didn't know how to play against. FTM could have won that if they hadn't drafted themselves into a corner. You see this from most Tier 3 teams when they make it to a LAN. They go for something they play a lot rather than the obvious strong Meta pick just because. They picked a WK when TB was still in the pool. That's why VGJ.T picked it. I'd say this is LAN Drafting 101, but drafting is a skill lost on nearly everyone. | ||
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DropBear
Australia4400 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
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Achaian
United States3369 Posts
ccnc pops exorcism 1.5 seconds before he dies, nisha pops exorcism before the fight begins (and then the fight doesn't happen) | ||
CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On April 12 2018 23:43 Taf the Ghost wrote: There's apparently a super abusive Viper build, though I don't remember what it was. Veil into Radiance? It's only good if you can survive the buildup period, and you need another item on top to make it rise above novelty. Maelstrom/Aghs is super-abusive if you can find a way around BKB. This NA build is terrible and deserves to be buried in an unmarked grave. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 13 2018 00:32 CosmicSpiral wrote: It's only good if you can survive the buildup period, and you need another item on top to make it rise above novelty. Maelstrom/Aghs is super-abusive if you can find a way around BKB. Ah, okay. And all Optic has to do is jump the Bane. How do they keep messing that up. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
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Achaian
United States3369 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 13 2018 00:39 Achaian wrote: there were some seriously trashy plays by both teams that game. Puzzling item choices by DK. 33 is the offlaner, but he wasn't supposed to be 2nd net worth and they didn't adjust. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
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goody153
44260 Posts
or Optic tilts and kinguin runs through them midgame | ||
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goody153
44260 Posts
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korendir
Singapore259 Posts
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goody153
44260 Posts
On April 13 2018 01:16 korendir wrote: only just got on, any youtube channel i can watch the vods on? vods can be found here https://www.reddit.com/r/DotaVods/comments/8axhm4/starladder_imbatv_invitational/ | ||
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goody153
44260 Posts
Optic already won this , kinguin is just giving up their entire map without contesting even though they weren't really losing on skirmishes | ||
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Achaian
United States3369 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 13 2018 01:29 CosmicSpiral wrote: Did Dendi fool everyone into thinking Blink first on SF was a good build? Very possible. | ||
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babysimba
10466 Posts
Think the only way SF can be played right now is a 4p1 setup with 2 really strong sidelane cores, but even Liquid, the best team in 4p1, isn't confident in running SF. | ||
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goody153
44260 Posts
how did they take a game of optic On April 13 2018 01:29 CosmicSpiral wrote: Did Dendi fool everyone into thinking Blink first on SF was a good build? maybe that was good 4 years ago even the eventual bkb just beats all the aggressive options of that item | ||
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Achaian
United States3369 Posts
how did they take a game of optic optic did not match their item choices with their draft and played sloppily g2 | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 13 2018 01:39 goody153 wrote: kinguin is pretty bad how did they take a game of optic maybe that was good 4 years ago even the eventual bkb just beats all the aggressive options of that item CCnC got shut down in lane, 33's item build didn't adjust and Kinguin got 4-5 straight team fights without their bane getting jumped so he could lock down Pajkatt the entire fight. Though FTM threw away a chance to win the series against VGJ.T in game 3 with just a terrible draft. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
Huh, Pajkatt on Sand King. | ||
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babysimba
10466 Posts
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 13 2018 02:36 babysimba wrote: Wow there's an invoker in the sidelane He'd be out of the game in any other setup, so it was necessary for them. | ||
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babysimba
10466 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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ironcell
Chile1127 Posts
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babysimba
10466 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
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ironcell
Chile1127 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 13 2018 02:55 ironcell wrote: Scary Spiders. Invoker + Nix too greedy? Was greedy before the Brood. Was suicidal after Brood came out. Peter is really trying to force them to at least always ban Brood in 1st or 2nd phase. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
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GOHF
United States1864 Posts
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On April 13 2018 03:01 M.S.Bismarck wrote: Chinese teams also seem to be the most susceptible to "cheese" picks. They pick a bunch of basic, safe heroes and then get caught off guard by a last pick Broodmother or Arc Warden or Meepo. Their meta is incredibly stale right now, so it's easy to sink their drafts with an unexpected pick. | ||
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goody153
44260 Posts
On April 13 2018 03:01 M.S.Bismarck wrote: Chinese teams also seem to be the most susceptible to "cheese" picks. They pick a bunch of basic, safe heroes and then get caught off guard by a last pick Broodmother or Arc Warden or Meepo. Western teams gets brooded more (Secret eg ). They aren't always safe, you won't see shit like lesh cores being picked on high profile matches from the western teams. And currently VG.J is pretty weak with the past few tournaments. They just lost their edge | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 13 2018 03:10 goody153 wrote: Western teams gets brooded more (Secret eg ). They aren't always safe, you won't see shit like lesh cores being picked on high profile matches from the western teams. And currently VG.J is pretty weak with the past few tournaments. They just lost their edge They got the blessing of Slacks at Bucharest and got stomped by EG the next week. They had a good LAN, some great bracket luck and are currently 8th in the DPC because of it. | ||
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
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ironcell
Chile1127 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
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ironcell
Chile1127 Posts
On April 13 2018 03:57 Taf the Ghost wrote: Well, that game was over fast. Yeah they grouped and as the casters were saying the magic amplification was over the top (ice vortex+veil + rubick aura + BM axes debuff) in Optic and VGT had nothing to answer that. | ||
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Deleted User 173346
16169 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 13 2018 04:00 ironcell wrote: Yeah they grouped and as the casters were saying the magic amplification was over the top (ice vortex+veil + rubick aura + BM axes debuff) in Optic and VGT had nothing to answer that. VGJ.T took the Anti-Timing fight. Kunkka got caught out in the midlane, the hawk saw the team on the shrine-side stairs, 33 got the roar on the DP before Exorcism got out and the entire beast squad from BM is on VGJ.T's high ground with no buybacks after killing all 3 cores. Oddly enough, I don't know if Optic actually win there if VGJ.T doesn't gg out. They probably get 2 lanes before they realize that there were no available buybacks, though in game 1 they went for the Tier 4s to force it, which is probably a good thing to always test in the current iteration of the game. And, now, what does the new patch bring? haha. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On April 13 2018 06:55 FuzzyJAM wrote: Any games from today worth watching? The panel for Game 1 of VGJ.T vs Optic. Not joking. Rest of Game 1 is probably worth watching as well. Game 1 of FTM vs VJG.T was decently entertaining, and game 3 of Optic vs Kinguin was a great display of Lina play. | ||
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