This should be an awesome tournament! With TL toppling OG last week I want to say that nearly every team besides DC and Mineski are contenders for the title.
Idk what's strange about the format. The bracket is standard double elim, and the scheduling is probably because they don't want to risk playing 4 series during 1 day and the event going too late. This way also half of the teams won't be playing on certain days so they may be more inclined to doing some casting instead of preparing for their own games.
Or they could have played 3 games a day like the Major did? I don't know seems daft to give teams 0 preparation to play a more important game then the previous one they won.
I understand that, the team that wins the earlier matchup is probably at an advantage because they have a break in between and can watch the other games. But I don't think it's that big of a deal if there's at least some time between the games.
I hope that they will cast iirc the last time , most teams where practicing cause the summit did a wayy too good of job providing them with everything they needed to scrim.
I'm pretty surprised that BTS didn't make the NA teams play today on account of them having less distance to travel, less jetlag to overcome etc but w/e.
Summit 4 only raised 10k, thats 160k less than Summit 3
holy shit, maybe it will sky rocket when the tournament starts ? but Summit 3 had a steady grow and it had a pretty worthless jump when the event started
On December 10 2015 02:29 Sn0_Man wrote: More than 200K less than summit 2 lol since that was when C9 went full sellout for the redemption with Universe + Aui videos etc
no hats mate, no hats. At least for me.
anyway, who is that on notail's right? He's so uneasy and clumsy, it's adorable!
On December 10 2015 02:29 Sn0_Man wrote: More than 200K less than summit 2 lol since that was when C9 went full sellout for the redemption with Universe + Aui videos etc
no hats mate, no hats. At least for me.
anyway, who is that on notail's right? He's so uneasy and clumsy, it's adorable!
I believe that's 8 0 0 0 M A T C H M A K I N G P O I N T S
On December 10 2015 02:29 Sn0_Man wrote: More than 200K less than summit 2 lol since that was when C9 went full sellout for the redemption with Universe + Aui videos etc
no hats mate, no hats. At least for me.
anyway, who is that on notail's right? He's so uneasy and clumsy, it's adorable!
is it just me or is kotlguy starting to get more and more arrogant? I cant even fixate in on a single statement he just seems kinda douchey and likes to play with his little playdolls in front of the camera since he has more confidence in front of the camera than most of the other guys. Maybe its just some irrational grumpyness but i really start to dislike this guy...
So when does the first game starts thought im going to catch the first map before a friend BD now im screwed .... eefff Never understood how you can miss the FIRST game time.... i can rather understand the following games having delays , but the FIRST ? you can prepare everything in advance...
On December 10 2015 03:12 uriel- wrote: Oh man the prize pool contribution is painful this time, reborn really screwed them over I think.
I hope this doesn't affect our chances of a TS5, I love this tournament.
I tried to talk about this a little bit in the preview article but it really isn't all bad. Players have a hard time having fun in front of the camera when they are playing in a $300,000 tournament (especially in the days before majors). Now, a $100,000 tournament is almost chump change and they can relax and have fun. Sure, we'd all like to see this have more success and have a compendium and redemption vote etc, but I feel like a lower prizepool could make the event a lot more fun.
For those wondering about the schedule, http://beyondthesummit.tv/the-summit-4-schedule/ is the official schedule that I used for adding the event it still says the old times even though the stream now says 10:30 pst start time for the first match. :shrug:
I hope the players will be abit more into it this time around , when SC had his homestory cup most of the players were game , and it made for glorious events , in Dota its like 1 player per team (OG have Fly as well willing to participate aside from NoTail which is a 1 man show tbh )))) , hoping for some Universe and Miracle casting , Universe is a funny dude with all his drawings and videos just need to open up At least we gonna get : Notail , PPD , Puppey and EE providing good insights and fun .
On December 10 2015 03:34 Snakesneaks wrote: i watch dendi stream in the meantime and wtf, this ebola spirit seems still broken to be included in 6.86 -cm
this is not news there's no expectation of ES making it into CM without substantial rework/nerfs
On December 10 2015 03:31 Latham wrote: So I dunno much about Myneski at all. Will this be a 1-sided stomp from OG?
that is the expected result. apparently bimbo/jay, who is their best player, is not playing, so it seems even less likely that they win. i'm pumped to see them play either way
On December 10 2015 03:35 bluzi wrote: I hope the players will be abit more into it this time around , when SC had his homestory cup most of the players were game , and it made for glorious events , in Dota its like 1 player per team (OG have Fly as well willing to participate aside from NoTail which is a 1 man show tbh )))) , hoping for some Universe and Miracle casting , Universe is a funny dude with all his drawings and videos just need to open up At least we gonna get : Notail , PPD , Puppey and EE providing good insights and fun .
On December 10 2015 03:35 bluzi wrote: I hope the players will be abit more into it this time around , when SC had his homestory cup most of the players were game , and it made for glorious events , in Dota its like 1 player per team (OG have Fly as well willing to participate aside from NoTail which is a 1 man show tbh )))) , hoping for some Universe and Miracle casting , Universe is a funny dude with all his drawings and videos just need to open up At least we gonna get : Notail , PPD , Puppey and EE providing good insights and fun .
Now, only half the bracket is playing today (OG/Mineski/VP/VG) and at this time of day I think some of them are kinda jetlagged so I wouldn't be surprised if most of the players weren't even at the house today. Especially since I think the practice areas aren't in the house due to space concerns. And if players aren't at the house, of course they won't be casting etc.
On December 10 2015 03:46 DucK- wrote: I mean from og. Night stalker is nothing to AM.
well that's just false lmao i mean it's true that Mski's lineup doesn't end up amazing vs AM but OG don't really have a lineup that supports an AM well either and the hero kinda sucks overall.
But seriously, Nightstalker is a fabulous AM counter especially with a lich in lane.
Ember against no stun/1 silence line up could have a nice game. But I think it's still a big outdraft, I don't see what mineski can do to win outside of snowballing very hard.
On December 10 2015 03:49 nojok wrote: Ember against no stun/1 silence line up could have a nice game. But I think it's still a big outdraft, I don't see what mineski can do to win outside of snowballing very hard.
On December 10 2015 03:49 nojok wrote: Ember against no stun/1 silence line up could have a nice game. But I think it's still a big outdraft, I don't see what mineski can do to win outside of snowballing very hard.
Yeah all lanes are kinda owned by OG except mid probably and OG has better scaling heroes. I think mineski's draft is too conservative, doom alone is gonna rip this lineup.
On December 10 2015 04:10 Nakama wrote: OG looks like the old alliance to me, when the new patch hits they wont ever come close to win anything again
They do seem to have a drafting edge over most teams at the moment, but the only player with a small hero pool atm seems to be NoTail. And he just switched over to a core role.
On December 10 2015 04:10 Nakama wrote: OG looks like the old alliance to me, when the new patch hits they wont ever come close to win anything again
They do seem to have a drafting edge over most teams at the moment, but the only player with a small hero pool atm seems to be NoTail. And he just switched over to a core role.
Sort of ironic as I've seen at least a few pros citing notail's massive hero pool as one of the strengths of the team. He's not like a top player on very many heroes (tiny/meepo but even he says w33 is better at meepo), but he's quite capable on most of them. If anyone on the team has a small pool, it seems to be miracle
On December 10 2015 04:10 Nakama wrote: OG looks like the old alliance to me, when the new patch hits they wont ever come close to win anything again
They do seem to have a drafting edge over most teams at the moment, but the only player with a small hero pool atm seems to be NoTail. And he just switched over to a core role.
Sort of ironic as I've seen at least a few pros citing notail's massive hero pool as one of the strengths of the team. He's not like a top player on very many heroes (tiny/meepo but even he says w33 is better at meepo), but he's quite capable on most of them. If anyone on the team has a small pool, it seems to be miracle
It's because he was bad during his last week-end lan. Don't go further than the previous lan to determine a player's ability.
On December 10 2015 04:10 Nakama wrote: OG looks like the old alliance to me, when the new patch hits they wont ever come close to win anything again
They do seem to have a drafting edge over most teams at the moment, but the only player with a small hero pool atm seems to be NoTail. And he just switched over to a core role.
Sort of ironic as I've seen at least a few pros citing notail's massive hero pool as one of the strengths of the team. He's not like a top player on very many heroes (tiny/meepo but even he says w33 is better at meepo), but he's quite capable on most of them. If anyone on the team has a small pool, it seems to be miracle
It's because he was bad during his last week-end lan. Don't go further than the previous lan to determine a player's ability.
He was playing gameboy during the drafts, I wouldn't take how they did that LAN very seriously.
Makes you wonder what's going on with pros sometimes.
dota is trendy most popular thing will continue to be done the most, even if it's not actually that good if you want a historical example, OD was the 3rd most picked/banned hero at TI3 but only had a 36.4% winrate
On December 10 2015 05:14 Dysisa wrote: Oops I forgot there was Dota on and played Max Payne 3 instead, did I already miss OG rolling over Mineski? Were the games any good?
i mean game 1 OG pooped on mineski game 2 mineski got literally teh BEST POSSIBLE start for alch with him vs like a meepo and he got stacks and bounties then he went treads radiance and fed 5 times and they lost super hard
OK I don't get this. If you are legitimately one of the weakest teams around, why is it wrong to just say that? It doesn't mean they are not here to try and pull an upset... I don't get this logic that we heard in this interview.
On December 10 2015 05:10 Dracolich70 wrote: Not sure why some think OG are dependant on patch. They are probably the team to be least dependant on patch.
If you look at their drafting style, you can see how similar they are to Alliance 2013. There is a fixed pattern.
For example:
1) If they are FP, they ban any heroes except Doom/SF/Wisp. They may 2nd ban Doom only if opponent doesn't first ban SF or Wisp. This way, it guarantees them always either of this 3 heroes, while they can control whether or not Doom is given away.
2) They often leave their mid and carry to 4th/5th pick. Their first 3 picks are generally flexible supports. This opens them to adapt and punish via Huskar/Meepo/PL/AM.
For a team so reliant on drafting with a rigid pattern, a patch can shake everything up easily.
On December 10 2015 05:14 Dysisa wrote: Oops I forgot there was Dota on and played Max Payne 3 instead, did I already miss OG rolling over Mineski? Were the games any good?
i mean game 1 OG pooped on mineski game 2 mineski got literally teh BEST POSSIBLE start for alch with him vs like a meepo and he got stacks and bounties then he went treads radiance and fed 5 times and they lost super hard
On December 10 2015 05:14 Spicy_Curry wrote: 1 fucking hour break?
Other teams were super bad, you need to play early now!!!!!!! I don't care if you want to get food, DANCE FOR THE VIEWERS!!!!!!!
It's their job...
Yeah and they can tell the Summit to "fuck off, we are playing at our time that you told us. Figure it out your production problems." Its not the team's job to care that the broadcast has a gap and the Summit can't really force them to play early.
Well you could say to teams that games start right after another if you wanted to. But this thing always comes up. Imo for viewers it can be better to have games start on predetermined times, you just have to act accordingly. Do something else in between and come back for the game when it starts. I like that much better than sitting around wondering how long the break is going to be.
Also for players set times are much better I think, they know exactly when they have to play and can prepare accordingly.
On December 10 2015 05:14 Spicy_Curry wrote: 1 fucking hour break?
Other teams were super bad, you need to play early now!!!!!!! I don't care if you want to get food, DANCE FOR THE VIEWERS!!!!!!!
It's their job...
Yeah and they can tell the Summit to "fuck off, we are playing at our time that you told us. Figure it out your production problems." Its not the team's job to care that the broadcast has a gap and the Summit can't really force them to play early.
Of course they can. Plenty of tournaments move matches to an earlier time if the previous match finished early.
Wraith King basically lets you play xboct/EE style carry where you farm aggressively and run at people and they have to constantly make the decision of "Is his team behind him I don't know but this weird ghost is running at me and waving a sword"
On December 10 2015 05:10 Dracolich70 wrote: Not sure why some think OG are dependant on patch. They are probably the team to be least dependant on patch.
If you look at their drafting style, you can see how similar they are to Alliance 2013. There is a fixed pattern.
For example:
1) If they are FP, they ban any heroes except Doom/SF/Wisp. They may 2nd ban Doom only if opponent doesn't first ban SF or Wisp. This way, it guarantees them always either of this 3 heroes, while they can control whether or not Doom is given away.
2) They often leave their mid and carry to 4th/5th pick. Their first 3 picks are generally flexible supports. This opens them to adapt and punish via Huskar/Meepo/PL/AM.
For a team so reliant on drafting with a rigid pattern, a patch can shake everything up easily.
They draft according to what they are comfortable with in this patch, but even in similar drafts they play it totally differently, and they will also swap heroes to other players.
Fact of the matter is they have a plethora of strategies, and it doesn't depend on heroes picked, thus patch is totally irrelevant. They are comfortable in playing a farm game, early to mid push, split push, counter push, 4 prot 1, 5 man. They have great team fight communication, and understand itemization and the timings.
Fact of the matter is wait until a team has played on more than one patch before you declare patch relevant or irrelevant also fact of the matter is OG aint playing atm lets discuss CHINA IN FLAMES AZARKON IS DOING IT
On December 10 2015 06:50 Sn0_Man wrote: Fact of the matter is wait until a team has played on more than one patch before you declare patch relevant or irrelevant also fact of the matter is OG aint playing atm lets discuss CHINA IN FLAMES AZARKON IS DOING IT
On December 10 2015 06:50 Sn0_Man wrote: Fact of the matter is wait until a team has played on more than one patch before you declare patch relevant or irrelevant also fact of the matter is OG aint playing atm lets discuss CHINA IN FLAMES AZARKON IS DOING IT
They have played two patches already. They have by far the most games by any post TI. I have watched 95% of them.
Patch is irrelevant because they are not dependant on heroes to pick strategies, and have not cornered themselves into strategies, but have the most by any..
On December 10 2015 05:10 Dracolich70 wrote: Not sure why some think OG are dependant on patch. They are probably the team to be least dependant on patch.
If you look at their drafting style, you can see how similar they are to Alliance 2013. There is a fixed pattern.
For example:
1) If they are FP, they ban any heroes except Doom/SF/Wisp. They may 2nd ban Doom only if opponent doesn't first ban SF or Wisp. This way, it guarantees them always either of this 3 heroes, while they can control whether or not Doom is given away.
2) They often leave their mid and carry to 4th/5th pick. Their first 3 picks are generally flexible supports. This opens them to adapt and punish via Huskar/Meepo/PL/AM.
For a team so reliant on drafting with a rigid pattern, a patch can shake everything up easily.
They draft according to what they are comfortable with in this patch, but even in similar drafts they play it totally differently, and they will also swap heroes to other players.
Fact of the matter is they have a plethora of strategies, and it doesn't depend on heroes picked, thus patch is totally irrelevant. They are comfortable in playing a farm game, early to mid push, split push, counter push, 4 prot 1, 5 man. They have great team fight communication, and understand itemization and the timings.
A big part of their arsenal is how teams fear their Meepo/Huskar 4th/5th picks, which means they often get free 2nd phase bans. It also allows them to draft around this. A new patch may make Meepo/Huskar irrelevant, and their drafting approach may no longer be effective. For example, they may have to secure cores earlier, which gives their opponents time to prepare.
So yes they do play a wide variety of strategies unlike Alliance 2013, but the major component of their success so far has been more due to their drafting edge.
On December 10 2015 05:10 Dracolich70 wrote: Not sure why some think OG are dependant on patch. They are probably the team to be least dependant on patch.
If you look at their drafting style, you can see how similar they are to Alliance 2013. There is a fixed pattern.
For example:
1) If they are FP, they ban any heroes except Doom/SF/Wisp. They may 2nd ban Doom only if opponent doesn't first ban SF or Wisp. This way, it guarantees them always either of this 3 heroes, while they can control whether or not Doom is given away.
2) They often leave their mid and carry to 4th/5th pick. Their first 3 picks are generally flexible supports. This opens them to adapt and punish via Huskar/Meepo/PL/AM.
For a team so reliant on drafting with a rigid pattern, a patch can shake everything up easily.
They draft according to what they are comfortable with in this patch, but even in similar drafts they play it totally differently, and they will also swap heroes to other players.
Fact of the matter is they have a plethora of strategies, and it doesn't depend on heroes picked, thus patch is totally irrelevant. They are comfortable in playing a farm game, early to mid push, split push, counter push, 4 prot 1, 5 man. They have great team fight communication, and understand itemization and the timings.
They still rely on a pretty small set of heroes, it's not particularly bad and it doesn't mean they will falter when the heroes they play get nerfed but you can't say that patches are irrelevant. Every team got hit by patches and some fell off drastically afterwards. OG have played one patch as a team, they might not be as successful in the next one or they might be even better we don't know.
On December 10 2015 06:50 Sn0_Man wrote: Fact of the matter is wait until a team has played on more than one patch before you declare patch relevant or irrelevant also fact of the matter is OG aint playing atm lets discuss CHINA IN FLAMES AZARKON IS DOING IT
They have played two patches already. They have by far the most games by any post TI. I have watched 95% of them.
Patch is irrelevant because they are not dependant on heroes to pick strategies.
In the previous patch they played zero LANs and made it through 1 out of 3 qualifiers they played. It's hardly big evidence.
Not that I think they will somehow crumble but at this time I don't really hold them as the big favorite to win the next major either.
i dont like it when teams put a solo slardar on a hard lane and leave him there. he needs at least some items to get going and only levels dont make him that scary. same thing happend last game.
edit: if i remember correctly vp always picked carry venge when they had two other strong cores and needed a hero to initiate fights who could start from the safelane. i think its a decent pick here with sf and a doom.
VP did an amazing job kicking the can down the road for the first 20 minutes of the game. Pickoffs here and there, a couple of favorable fights... and then fucked up and pushed high ground a little too fast.
On December 10 2015 07:36 SKC wrote: yeah VP is just outplaying them. This should have been VGs game
Not really. Although Vici were getting lots of kills, ta and gyro were still up there in net worth.
Because VP was outplaying them.
As in vg's good start did nothing much to hinder vp's core heroes from being farmed. Ta and gyro were pretty much farming creeps only before VP started going for fights.
On December 10 2015 07:36 SKC wrote: yeah VP is just outplaying them. This should have been VGs game
Not really. Although Vici were getting lots of kills, ta and gyro were still up there in net worth.
Because VP was outplaying them.
As in vg's good start did nothing much to hinder vp's core heroes from being farmed. Ta and gyro were pretty much farming creeps only before VP started going for fights.
Anyway classic virtus throw.
VG keeps fucking up half the game and then VP fucks up a single fight and you say they threw.
VG should have snowballed this game from the start.
On December 10 2015 05:10 Dracolich70 wrote: Not sure why some think OG are dependant on patch. They are probably the team to be least dependant on patch.
If you look at their drafting style, you can see how similar they are to Alliance 2013. There is a fixed pattern.
For example:
1) If they are FP, they ban any heroes except Doom/SF/Wisp. They may 2nd ban Doom only if opponent doesn't first ban SF or Wisp. This way, it guarantees them always either of this 3 heroes, while they can control whether or not Doom is given away.
2) They often leave their mid and carry to 4th/5th pick. Their first 3 picks are generally flexible supports. This opens them to adapt and punish via Huskar/Meepo/PL/AM.
For a team so reliant on drafting with a rigid pattern, a patch can shake everything up easily.
They draft according to what they are comfortable with in this patch, but even in similar drafts they play it totally differently, and they will also swap heroes to other players.
Fact of the matter is they have a plethora of strategies, and it doesn't depend on heroes picked, thus patch is totally irrelevant. They are comfortable in playing a farm game, early to mid push, split push, counter push, 4 prot 1, 5 man. They have great team fight communication, and understand itemization and the timings.
A big part of their arsenal is how teams fear their Meepo/Huskar 4th/5th picks, which means they often get free 2nd phase bans. It also allows them to draft around this. A new patch may make Meepo/Huskar irrelevant, and their drafting approach may no longer be effective. For example, they may have to secure cores earlier, which gives their opponents time to prepare.
So yes they do play a wide variety of strategies unlike Alliance 2013, but the major component of their success so far has been more due to their drafting edge.
They use this approach, as they can utilize powerful heroes, and what synergize with them, but that doesn't mean they are dependant on these patterns you describe.
If Meepo and Huskar is removed as a threat, thus not banned/picked, it still leaves other heroes like Dazzle, Undying, Sladar, SF, Razor, Tusk, Wyvern, Tiny, IO, BM, Gyro, NP etc all heroes they have built around. Their style of play is not really designed around heroes, but they show they are versatile, and just use current heroes to achieve objectives. They have played in a variety of ways to achieve objectives. They have a vast pool, and a vast set of strategies, thus the least likely team to be affected by patch nerfs, or even game changing mechanics than any.
VG started winning once the swap intiation from burning start working, no idea why he was doing it all game though. It was great with BKB and lvl 16 but it was costing them all fights before that.
On December 10 2015 07:44 Zeelah wrote: I hate those moments as a spectator,where you know their going to overextend,you know it won't work but all you can do is watch Q_Q
Could be worse, you could have been a C9 fan pre disband.
On December 10 2015 07:36 SKC wrote: yeah VP is just outplaying them. This should have been VGs game
Not really. Although Vici were getting lots of kills, ta and gyro were still up there in net worth.
Because VP was outplaying them.
As in vg's good start did nothing much to hinder vp's core heroes from being farmed. Ta and gyro were pretty much farming creeps only before VP started going for fights.
Anyway classic virtus throw.
VG keeps fucking up half the game and then VP fucks up a single fight and you say they threw.
VG should have snowballed this game from the start.
VG weren't fucking up hard at all, barring that single poor fight where they threw the wards down in a stupid location. VP were putting amazing pressure on, repeatedly bursting down heroes and forcing fights at all the right times. They just got cocky and pushed high ground about 10-15 minutes too early. If you do that, you ought to lose pretty much 100% of the time.
On December 10 2015 07:36 SKC wrote: yeah VP is just outplaying them. This should have been VGs game
Not really. Although Vici were getting lots of kills, ta and gyro were still up there in net worth.
Because VP was outplaying them.
As in vg's good start did nothing much to hinder vp's core heroes from being farmed. Ta and gyro were pretty much farming creeps only before VP started going for fights.
Anyway classic virtus throw.
VG keeps fucking up half the game and then VP fucks up a single fight and you say they threw.
VG should have snowballed this game from the start.
VG weren't fucking up hard at all, barring that single poor fight where they threw the wards down in a stupid location. VP were putting amazing pressure on, repeatedly bursting down heroes and forcing fights at all the right times. They just got cocky and pushed high ground about 10-15 minutes too early. If you do that, you ought to lose pretty much 100% of the time.
There was that fight, there was the Rosh fight that they should have won easily but lost 3 extra heroes for nothing chasing, there was Super getting picked off without popping BKB...
On December 10 2015 07:36 SKC wrote: yeah VP is just outplaying them. This should have been VGs game
Not really. Although Vici were getting lots of kills, ta and gyro were still up there in net worth.
Because VP was outplaying them.
As in vg's good start did nothing much to hinder vp's core heroes from being farmed. Ta and gyro were pretty much farming creeps only before VP started going for fights.
Anyway classic virtus throw.
VG keeps fucking up half the game and then VP fucks up a single fight and you say they threw.
VG should have snowballed this game from the start.
VG weren't fucking up hard at all, barring that single poor fight where they threw the wards down in a stupid location. VP were putting amazing pressure on, repeatedly bursting down heroes and forcing fights at all the right times. They just got cocky and pushed high ground about 10-15 minutes too early. If you do that, you ought to lose pretty much 100% of the time.
There was that fight, there was the Rosh fight that they should have won easily but lost 3 extra heroes chasing, there was Super getting picked off without popping BKB...
Oh, yeah, you mean the small errors that pop up in every game. Are any of those mechanical/tactical errors as bad as the massive strategic error of going to push high ground fifteen minutes too early?
On December 10 2015 07:36 SKC wrote: yeah VP is just outplaying them. This should have been VGs game
Not really. Although Vici were getting lots of kills, ta and gyro were still up there in net worth.
Because VP was outplaying them.
As in vg's good start did nothing much to hinder vp's core heroes from being farmed. Ta and gyro were pretty much farming creeps only before VP started going for fights.
Anyway classic virtus throw.
VG keeps fucking up half the game and then VP fucks up a single fight and you say they threw.
VG should have snowballed this game from the start.
VG weren't fucking up hard at all, barring that single poor fight where they threw the wards down in a stupid location. VP were putting amazing pressure on, repeatedly bursting down heroes and forcing fights at all the right times. They just got cocky and pushed high ground about 10-15 minutes too early. If you do that, you ought to lose pretty much 100% of the time.
There was that fight, there was the Rosh fight that they should have won easily but lost 3 extra heroes chasing, there was Super getting picked off without popping BKB...
Oh, yeah, you mean the small errors that pop up in every game. Are any of those mechanical/tactical errors as bad as the massive strategic error of going to push high ground fifteen minutes too early?
Yes.
Because in most games its making little key mistakes every fight, and losing fights you should win, that actually lose you the game.
On December 10 2015 07:36 SKC wrote: yeah VP is just outplaying them. This should have been VGs game
Not really. Although Vici were getting lots of kills, ta and gyro were still up there in net worth.
Because VP was outplaying them.
As in vg's good start did nothing much to hinder vp's core heroes from being farmed. Ta and gyro were pretty much farming creeps only before VP started going for fights.
Anyway classic virtus throw.
VG keeps fucking up half the game and then VP fucks up a single fight and you say they threw.
VG should have snowballed this game from the start.
?
Before Vici started losing fights, VP had a farmed ta and a farmed gyro. Pretty much same net worth as venge and sf. VP had AA and disruptor as supports that do not need gold. The sladar though had to catch up, but all he really needs is blink. I'm saying that VP was never in a sure lose situation. In fact, I'd say they're in quite a comfortable position, not ideal but still pretty decent.
I disagree that Vici was in a clearcut position to snowball.
On December 10 2015 07:44 Zeelah wrote: I hate those moments as a spectator,where you know their going to overextend,you know it won't work but all you can do is watch Q_Q
Could be worse, you could have been a C9 fan pre disband.
On December 10 2015 07:36 SKC wrote: yeah VP is just outplaying them. This should have been VGs game
Not really. Although Vici were getting lots of kills, ta and gyro were still up there in net worth.
Because VP was outplaying them.
As in vg's good start did nothing much to hinder vp's core heroes from being farmed. Ta and gyro were pretty much farming creeps only before VP started going for fights.
Anyway classic virtus throw.
VG keeps fucking up half the game and then VP fucks up a single fight and you say they threw.
VG should have snowballed this game from the start.
VG weren't fucking up hard at all, barring that single poor fight where they threw the wards down in a stupid location. VP were putting amazing pressure on, repeatedly bursting down heroes and forcing fights at all the right times. They just got cocky and pushed high ground about 10-15 minutes too early. If you do that, you ought to lose pretty much 100% of the time.
There was that fight, there was the Rosh fight that they should have won easily but lost 3 extra heroes chasing, there was Super getting picked off without popping BKB...
Oh, yeah, you mean the small errors that pop up in every game. Are any of those mechanical/tactical errors as bad as the massive strategic error of going to push high ground fifteen minutes too early?
Yes.
Because in most games its making little key mistakes every fight, and losing fights you should win, that actually lose you the game.
I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong. I mean, outright, no questions asked, completely and utterly incorrect about how you understand the game. The errors in question aren't even close to being on the same level. Any team that pushes high ground 15 minutes too early will lose the game almost all of the time. If you ever push too early, you are making a horrible mistake that you not only deserve to lose for, but most likely will. VP should have known it was too early, too. They were playing as a team with excellent pickoff and solid potential going into the lategame against a team with amazing teamfight that drops off sharply. They should have known that going for T3 pushes without Mek or Aegis was going to be suicidal. They got overconfident because they were getting to play their style of game out on the open map and followed up by making a critical strategic error. That is a throw.
Popping BKB late? Clumsy, but not a throw. Dropping heroes because you try too hard to chase a TA? Foolish, but not a throw (mostly because Rosh was already dead). Putting down wards in an awful location and dumping too many resources to try and save your 4 position? Inexplicable, but not a throw. Being even or ahead and deliberately making a play that, if it goes wrong, will lose you all that you've worked for over the past twenty minutes as well as a lane of rax? That's a throw.
On December 10 2015 05:10 Dracolich70 wrote: Not sure why some think OG are dependant on patch. They are probably the team to be least dependant on patch.
If you look at their drafting style, you can see how similar they are to Alliance 2013. There is a fixed pattern.
For example:
1) If they are FP, they ban any heroes except Doom/SF/Wisp. They may 2nd ban Doom only if opponent doesn't first ban SF or Wisp. This way, it guarantees them always either of this 3 heroes, while they can control whether or not Doom is given away.
2) They often leave their mid and carry to 4th/5th pick. Their first 3 picks are generally flexible supports. This opens them to adapt and punish via Huskar/Meepo/PL/AM.
For a team so reliant on drafting with a rigid pattern, a patch can shake everything up easily.
They draft according to what they are comfortable with in this patch, but even in similar drafts they play it totally differently, and they will also swap heroes to other players.
Fact of the matter is they have a plethora of strategies, and it doesn't depend on heroes picked, thus patch is totally irrelevant. They are comfortable in playing a farm game, early to mid push, split push, counter push, 4 prot 1, 5 man. They have great team fight communication, and understand itemization and the timings.
A big part of their arsenal is how teams fear their Meepo/Huskar 4th/5th picks, which means they often get free 2nd phase bans. It also allows them to draft around this. A new patch may make Meepo/Huskar irrelevant, and their drafting approach may no longer be effective. For example, they may have to secure cores earlier, which gives their opponents time to prepare.
So yes they do play a wide variety of strategies unlike Alliance 2013, but the major component of their success so far has been more due to their drafting edge.
They use this approach, as they can utilize powerful heroes, and what synergize with them, but that doesn't mean they are dependant on these patterns you describe.
If Meepo and Huskar is removed as a threat, thus not banned/picked, it still leaves other heroes like Dazzle, Undying, Sladar, SF, Razor, Tusk, Wyvern, Tiny, IO, BM, Gyro, NP etc all heroes they have built around. Their style of play is not really designed around heroes, but they show they are versatile, and just use current heroes to achieve objectives. They have played in a variety of ways to achieve objectives. They have a vast pool, and a vast set of strategies, thus the least likely team to be affected by patch nerfs, or even game changing mechanics than any.
You're merely stating heroes that they can play. They don't build around many of those heroes like brew beast razor, but utilize them as a response pick to complement the draft.
They build around io, sf, tusk, undying, dazzle and ww. These heroes form the backbone of their drafts. Sf to powerfarm and be the main carry, undying to win lanes, ww/dazzle to sustain their 5man and make it hard to kill their cores, io for io combos, and early tusk pick for draft flexibility (option for moon or Cr1t to play). This is why they are 'limited' in their drafts, even though they seem to play a lot of heroes. They need those key ingredients.
On December 10 2015 05:10 Dracolich70 wrote: Not sure why some think OG are dependant on patch. They are probably the team to be least dependant on patch.
If you look at their drafting style, you can see how similar they are to Alliance 2013. There is a fixed pattern.
For example:
1) If they are FP, they ban any heroes except Doom/SF/Wisp. They may 2nd ban Doom only if opponent doesn't first ban SF or Wisp. This way, it guarantees them always either of this 3 heroes, while they can control whether or not Doom is given away.
2) They often leave their mid and carry to 4th/5th pick. Their first 3 picks are generally flexible supports. This opens them to adapt and punish via Huskar/Meepo/PL/AM.
For a team so reliant on drafting with a rigid pattern, a patch can shake everything up easily.
They draft according to what they are comfortable with in this patch, but even in similar drafts they play it totally differently, and they will also swap heroes to other players.
Fact of the matter is they have a plethora of strategies, and it doesn't depend on heroes picked, thus patch is totally irrelevant. They are comfortable in playing a farm game, early to mid push, split push, counter push, 4 prot 1, 5 man. They have great team fight communication, and understand itemization and the timings.
A big part of their arsenal is how teams fear their Meepo/Huskar 4th/5th picks, which means they often get free 2nd phase bans. It also allows them to draft around this. A new patch may make Meepo/Huskar irrelevant, and their drafting approach may no longer be effective. For example, they may have to secure cores earlier, which gives their opponents time to prepare.
So yes they do play a wide variety of strategies unlike Alliance 2013, but the major component of their success so far has been more due to their drafting edge.
They use this approach, as they can utilize powerful heroes, and what synergize with them, but that doesn't mean they are dependant on these patterns you describe.
If Meepo and Huskar is removed as a threat, thus not banned/picked, it still leaves other heroes like Dazzle, Undying, Sladar, SF, Razor, Tusk, Wyvern, Tiny, IO, BM, Gyro, NP etc all heroes they have built around. Their style of play is not really designed around heroes, but they show they are versatile, and just use current heroes to achieve objectives. They have played in a variety of ways to achieve objectives. They have a vast pool, and a vast set of strategies, thus the least likely team to be affected by patch nerfs, or even game changing mechanics than any.
You're merely stating heroes that they can play. They don't build around many of those heroes like brew beast, but utilize them as a response pick to complement the draft.
They build around io, sf, tusk, undying, dazzle and ww. These heroes form the backbone of their drafts. Sf to powerfarm and be the main carry, undying to win lanes, ww/dazzle to sustain their 5man and make it hard to kill their cores, io for io combos, and early tusk pick for draft flexibility (option for moon or Cr1t to play). This is why they are 'limited' in their drafts, even though they seem to play a lot of heroes.
I have mentioned the vast variety of strats they have used. All with different timings. I have responded to your mentioning for certain heroes losing strength, thus not viable for ban slots against them. Thing is that even in this current patch, they are feared for a vast variety of hero picks. Even if they all got nerfed, they still have a plethora of strategies which other heroes would be able to fill and synergize with one another. Since they have a vast number of strats, timings and itemization, thus showing flexability they have not cornered themselves with picks. They can pick the same heroes, place them on other players, and they can totally alter how they play it.
Not sure how you come to the conclusion they are limited in their drafts, when they have split pushed with a number of heroes; NP, BM, AM, Jakiro and IO/Tiny. They have chosen team fight heroes like Undying, Slardar, Bane, Tusk, Doom, Shaker and Brew. Early core heroes like Gyro. Farmers like SF, PL, AM, and Alchemist.
You admit they have a vast number of strategies. Moon has a big hero pool. So has N0tail, Miracle and Cr1t-. They have a lot of heroes they still haven't used, as there is little reason to, or were nerfed, or there are better options right now. A lot of other teams, have been forced into using heroes their players haven't played a lot, unlike OG.
Few teams know how to pick/ban against them. Why would this change due to a few nerfs on "their" heroes?
They are nothing like [A] that lost much due to jungle nerfs and split push mechanics got much weaker.
Does VP players all speak the same language? Their team fighting abilities is atrocious. It seems like every single player is doing their kwn thing. Where's the coordination and communication?
I actually wouldn't call this game a throw as game 2 was,just well executed by Vici.The game turned when they picked off the gyro and the Dk,and Vg took both those fights understanding that the gyro bkb and dk bkb were both down respectively.More of an outplay than throw and as soon as the dk died the game was always going to slow down
The draft and the build gave me the impression that VG would win even as VP was going through their best phase of the game.
At this point VP's victory entirely depends on killing Ember Spirit and getting his Rapier, but even that could be somewhat mitigated if Burning buys another Rapier first.
On December 10 2015 09:00 ptbl wrote: Does VP players all speak the same language? Their team fighting abilities is atrocious. It seems like every single player is doing their kwn thing. Where's the coordination and communication?
On December 10 2015 09:00 ptbl wrote: Does VP players all speak the same language? Their team fighting abilities is atrocious. It seems like every single player is doing their kwn thing. Where's the coordination and communication?
DED GAEM
That's starcraft 2. Leave this shit out of muh doto threads D:
On December 10 2015 09:37 BobMcJohnson wrote: wasnt there a game where bone7 went orchid dagon on clock
bone7 has bought orchid on clock 12 times, and won all 12 games as for dagon i can't find any clock dagon games from him you might be thinking of the C9 vs SFZ game where everyone on C9 except EE and bone bought Dagons
On December 10 2015 10:06 ch33psh33p wrote: if you guys honestly think all the downtime is acceptable when they have everyone on site, i don't even.
I only started watching around 50min into the last game, but I do think some downtime is acceptable right after that game. And more generally I think that if you go into this expecting it to feel and operate like a normal lan--one without, for instance, a kitchen in the middle--you're going to be disappointed.
VG draft looks awful. They shouldn't win the lanes and they can't do anything unless they do. Only hope is that OG fuck up in the first 10 minutes and gift them the game.
I still think that VG isn't winning hard enough. That they need to win hard and win now. Problem is they don't have the best pushing heroes to win and push and end. No rhasta with wards. No great high ground heroes.
On December 10 2015 10:55 goody153 wrote: just woke up and wow that venge is fat
wait what the fuck
that's a core venge
check VG vs VP game 2
i can totally see this happening with VP they do that from time to time but VG? lol
who played venge during the vg vs vp g2 ?
It was Burning Vengeful earlier too.
ROFL oh dear
why not luna instead of venge i wonder , they're kinda similar (both deal heavy single target damage and provide damage aura ) of couse they have differences
and how are they gonna survive lategame against PL .. they need to push fast
On December 10 2015 11:15 syw651 wrote: Maybe carry VS somewhat legit. I was sure they'd be unable to get anything done by the 40 minute mark, but they seem to still think otherwise.
the hero is legit, it's good enough to meme push
however they're bound to lose since they are against PL, not because it's PL but because they don't have a clear answer to PL
On December 10 2015 11:15 syw651 wrote: Maybe carry VS somewhat legit. I was sure they'd be unable to get anything done by the 40 minute mark, but they seem to still think otherwise.
When Miracle is going for a 0 damage build and Notail opts for Heart over Skadi, carry VS will seem legit.
Venge carry is super legit in this patch. I used to laugh at the concept but it actually makes a lot of sense. She has the third highest stat gain in the game and can actually defend the safe lane, which seems to be a requirement in the offlane bruiser era.
On December 10 2015 11:24 goody153 wrote: ok they won ? they shouldn't have lol
Fiend's grip is an amazing ability when you can fully channel it every fight. And VG did an excellent job taking out rubick so they couldn't cancel and fiend's grip destroy SF and the swap pick offs were on point.
On December 10 2015 11:25 dutchfriese wrote: Venge carry is super legit in this patch. I used to laugh at the concept but it actually makes a lot of sense. She has the third highest stat gain in the game and can actually defend the safe lane, which seems to be a requirement in the offlane bruiser era.
I think in theory it makes more sense when you have like SF or TA mid just for the aura (like they run it on VP). But yeah, hotd on venge seems really strong.
On December 10 2015 11:25 dutchfriese wrote: Venge carry is super legit in this patch. I used to laugh at the concept but it actually makes a lot of sense. She has the third highest stat gain in the game and can actually defend the safe lane, which seems to be a requirement in the offlane bruiser era.
I think in theory it makes more sense when you have like SF or TA mid just for the aura (like they run it on VP). But yeah, hotd on venge seems really strong.
Venge aura only affects base damage, so not really. Running it with Morphling is a blast though.
On December 10 2015 11:25 dutchfriese wrote: Venge carry is super legit in this patch. I used to laugh at the concept but it actually makes a lot of sense. She has the third highest stat gain in the game and can actually defend the safe lane, which seems to be a requirement in the offlane bruiser era.
I kinda like her when playing a stack but it's awful in soloqueue. But with a bit coordination with your supports it's insane how easy you can get kills early game.
On December 10 2015 11:24 goody153 wrote: ok they won ? they shouldn't have lol
Fiend's grip is an amazing ability when you can fully channel it every fight. And VG did an excellent job taking out rubick so they couldn't cancel and fiend's grip destroy SF and the swap pick offs were on point.
Yeah the bane did a really good job, if that was i wouldn't get a single grip on pl and i'm just gonna die to illusions or something without getting my ult off.
On December 10 2015 11:24 FuzzyJAM wrote: Tiny pick was fucking awful. Don't understand it at all for this game.
Even so, VG's draft was better than I initially thought. Swap is so good when your opposition have no damage vs. BKB.
Who should they have picked instead of tiny? Slardar wouldn't have done shit in the lane and would have never recovered because he can't farm. Nightstalker maybe could have worked, but would have encountered the same problems as Slardar.
On December 10 2015 11:25 dutchfriese wrote: Venge carry is super legit in this patch. I used to laugh at the concept but it actually makes a lot of sense. She has the third highest stat gain in the game and can actually defend the safe lane, which seems to be a requirement in the offlane bruiser era.
I kinda like her when playing a stack but it's awful in soloqueue. But with a bit coordination with your supports it's insane how easy you can get kills early game.
Yeah solo queue carry vengeful safelane seems awful, with a stack and coordination as VG just showed, it can be legit, but you gotta use the swap for pick offs and even in a stack that kind of coordination can be hard to find.
On December 10 2015 11:25 dutchfriese wrote: Venge carry is super legit in this patch. I used to laugh at the concept but it actually makes a lot of sense. She has the third highest stat gain in the game and can actually defend the safe lane, which seems to be a requirement in the offlane bruiser era.
I think in theory it makes more sense when you have like SF or TA mid just for the aura (like they run it on VP). But yeah, hotd on venge seems really strong.
It could also be because VS has been falling off as a support lately. So IF is trying to give her slight buffs by giving her strong changes that aren't great for support, but he forgot to consider how much better those changes would make her as a carry.
On December 10 2015 11:25 dutchfriese wrote: Venge carry is super legit in this patch. I used to laugh at the concept but it actually makes a lot of sense. She has the third highest stat gain in the game and can actually defend the safe lane, which seems to be a requirement in the offlane bruiser era.
I think in theory it makes more sense when you have like SF or TA mid just for the aura (like they run it on VP). But yeah, hotd on venge seems really strong.
Venge aura only affects base damage, so not really. Running it with Morphling is a blast though.
Huh, in that case I guess the lina mid makes pretty good use of the aura due to fiery soul stacks.
On December 10 2015 11:24 FuzzyJAM wrote: Tiny pick was fucking awful. Don't understand it at all for this game.
Even so, VG's draft was better than I initially thought. Swap is so good when your opposition have no damage vs. BKB.
Who should they have picked instead of tiny? Slardar wouldn't have done shit in the lane and would have never recovered because he can't farm. Nightstalker maybe could have worked, but would have encountered the same problems as Slardar.
On December 10 2015 11:24 FuzzyJAM wrote: Tiny pick was fucking awful. Don't understand it at all for this game.
Even so, VG's draft was better than I initially thought. Swap is so good when your opposition have no damage vs. BKB.
Who should they have picked instead of tiny? Slardar wouldn't have done shit in the lane and would have never recovered because he can't farm. Nightstalker maybe could have worked, but would have encountered the same problems as Slardar.
Veno.
They definitely needed to be creative. Veno could have worked, along with a lot of other heroes that are unorthodox 6.86 offlaners.
My guess is that they settled on Tiny because that is the hero Moon was most comfortable playing vs that trilane. Tiny at least has legitimate comeback potential since he can clear stacks quickly.
On December 10 2015 11:24 FuzzyJAM wrote: Tiny pick was fucking awful. Don't understand it at all for this game.
Even so, VG's draft was better than I initially thought. Swap is so good when your opposition have no damage vs. BKB.
Who should they have picked instead of tiny? Slardar wouldn't have done shit in the lane and would have never recovered because he can't farm. Nightstalker maybe could have worked, but would have encountered the same problems as Slardar.
would tide have worked for moon ? the hero seems durable enough if they don't focus him down until lina/vs hits their peak and forces them to go bkb immediately or lose alot of fights
On December 10 2015 11:24 FuzzyJAM wrote: Tiny pick was fucking awful. Don't understand it at all for this game.
Even so, VG's draft was better than I initially thought. Swap is so good when your opposition have no damage vs. BKB.
Who should they have picked instead of tiny? Slardar wouldn't have done shit in the lane and would have never recovered because he can't farm. Nightstalker maybe could have worked, but would have encountered the same problems as Slardar.
Clock is perfect.
Unless I'm stupid and it was banned?
Clock works i guess, until he's tracked all game and nobody is afraid of him.
It's easy to shit on the tiny pick, but he was doing a lot of work in that game. He had quite a bit of farm and was absolutely pulling his weight despite being in an impossible lane to start.
On December 10 2015 11:24 FuzzyJAM wrote: Tiny pick was fucking awful. Don't understand it at all for this game.
Even so, VG's draft was better than I initially thought. Swap is so good when your opposition have no damage vs. BKB.
Who should they have picked instead of tiny? Slardar wouldn't have done shit in the lane and would have never recovered because he can't farm. Nightstalker maybe could have worked, but would have encountered the same problems as Slardar.
Clock is perfect.
Unless I'm stupid and it was banned?
Clock works i guess, until he's tracked all game and nobody is afraid of him.
It's easy to shit on the tiny pick, but he was doing a lot of work in that game. He had quite a bit of farm and was absolutely pulling his weight despite being in an impossible lane to start.
He did next to nothing of importance aside from help Venge get to a good start by being useless in lane.
Huskar has a 60.6% winrate, the 12th highest among all heroes, and 3rd highest among heroes that have been picked more than 50 times Silencer is 1-3 against Huskar, 0-1 against Meepo, and 16-12 against Dazzle
edit: Ember Spirit is 51-54 against Dazzle, 6-15 against Huskar, and 0-2 against Meepo
How does cleave work with regards to armour? Say you hit a creep with SoF and huskar is in the cleave range, does he take 35% of whatever damage the creep took or does he take 35% of the original number mitigated by his own armour/MR?
On December 10 2015 11:54 syw651 wrote: How does cleave work with regards to armour? Say you hit a creep with SoF and huskar is in the cleave range, does he take 35% of whatever damage the creep took or does he take 35% of the original number mitigated by his own armour/MR?
On December 10 2015 11:54 syw651 wrote: How does cleave work with regards to armour? Say you hit a creep with SoF and huskar is in the cleave range, does he take 35% of whatever damage the creep took or does he take 35% of the original number mitigated by his own armour/MR?
cleave considers armor type but not armor value so he takes 35% of what the creep took
On December 10 2015 11:54 syw651 wrote: How does cleave work with regards to armour? Say you hit a creep with SoF and huskar is in the cleave range, does he take 35% of whatever damage the creep took or does he take 35% of the original number mitigated by his own armour/MR?
On December 10 2015 11:54 syw651 wrote: How does cleave work with regards to armour? Say you hit a creep with SoF and huskar is in the cleave range, does he take 35% of whatever damage the creep took or does he take 35% of the original number mitigated by his own armour/MR?
On December 10 2015 11:54 syw651 wrote: How does cleave work with regards to armour? Say you hit a creep with SoF and huskar is in the cleave range, does he take 35% of whatever damage the creep took or does he take 35% of the original number mitigated by his own armour/MR?
cleave is pure damage afaik
yep, it is.
It's not, actually.
It's physical but it ignores armor.
ah
i think you should be able to ghost scepter against it, right ?
On December 10 2015 11:54 syw651 wrote: How does cleave work with regards to armour? Say you hit a creep with SoF and huskar is in the cleave range, does he take 35% of whatever damage the creep took or does he take 35% of the original number mitigated by his own armour/MR?
cleave considers armor type but not armor value so he takes 35% of what the creep took
That's not true. Cleave is based on attack damage, you always deal 35% of your damage, regardless of the damage your primary target actually takes.
On December 10 2015 11:24 FuzzyJAM wrote: Tiny pick was fucking awful. Don't understand it at all for this game.
Even so, VG's draft was better than I initially thought. Swap is so good when your opposition have no damage vs. BKB.
Who should they have picked instead of tiny? Slardar wouldn't have done shit in the lane and would have never recovered because he can't farm. Nightstalker maybe could have worked, but would have encountered the same problems as Slardar.
Clock is perfect.
Unless I'm stupid and it was banned?
Clock works i guess, until he's tracked all game and nobody is afraid of him.
It's easy to shit on the tiny pick, but he was doing a lot of work in that game. He had quite a bit of farm and was absolutely pulling his weight despite being in an impossible lane to start.
He did next to nothing of importance aside from help Venge get to a good start by being useless in lane.
If you saw "next to nothing of importance" then you aren't a very sophisticated dota viewer. Sorry.
On December 10 2015 11:54 syw651 wrote: How does cleave work with regards to armour? Say you hit a creep with SoF and huskar is in the cleave range, does he take 35% of whatever damage the creep took or does he take 35% of the original number mitigated by his own armour/MR?
cleave is pure damage afaik
yep, it is.
It's not, actually.
It's physical but it ignores armor.
ah
i think you should be able to ghost scepter against it, right ?
On December 10 2015 12:02 Chewbacca. wrote: You know you're talking to a real position 6 support when they don't know that broken tranqs is faster than the other boots.
On December 10 2015 11:24 FuzzyJAM wrote: Tiny pick was fucking awful. Don't understand it at all for this game.
Even so, VG's draft was better than I initially thought. Swap is so good when your opposition have no damage vs. BKB.
Who should they have picked instead of tiny? Slardar wouldn't have done shit in the lane and would have never recovered because he can't farm. Nightstalker maybe could have worked, but would have encountered the same problems as Slardar.
Clock is perfect.
Unless I'm stupid and it was banned?
Clock works i guess, until he's tracked all game and nobody is afraid of him.
It's easy to shit on the tiny pick, but he was doing a lot of work in that game. He had quite a bit of farm and was absolutely pulling his weight despite being in an impossible lane to start.
He did next to nothing of importance aside from help Venge get to a good start by being useless in lane.
If you saw "next to nothing of importance" then you aren't a very sophisticated dota viewer. Sorry.
On December 10 2015 12:09 TheTenthDoc wrote: It really amuses me which armlet toggles impress the casters and which ones don't.
Because armlet toggle puts you at such low health for a second, it looks really dramatic whether or not there's any real danger. Seeing a hero on 1 health under a grave always looks exciting, even if you know objectively that he's actually got 250 effective health.
On December 10 2015 11:24 FuzzyJAM wrote: Tiny pick was fucking awful. Don't understand it at all for this game.
Even so, VG's draft was better than I initially thought. Swap is so good when your opposition have no damage vs. BKB.
Who should they have picked instead of tiny? Slardar wouldn't have done shit in the lane and would have never recovered because he can't farm. Nightstalker maybe could have worked, but would have encountered the same problems as Slardar.
Clock is perfect.
Unless I'm stupid and it was banned?
Clock works i guess, until he's tracked all game and nobody is afraid of him.
It's easy to shit on the tiny pick, but he was doing a lot of work in that game. He had quite a bit of farm and was absolutely pulling his weight despite being in an impossible lane to start.
He did next to nothing of importance aside from help Venge get to a good start by being useless in lane.
If you saw "next to nothing of importance" then you aren't a very sophisticated dota viewer. Sorry.
Tell us all the important things he did.
Doing as much damage as SF while providing all kinds of utility via lotus orb / force staff, items he would have never even dreamed of buying as a clockwork in that particular game.
On December 10 2015 11:24 FuzzyJAM wrote: Tiny pick was fucking awful. Don't understand it at all for this game.
Even so, VG's draft was better than I initially thought. Swap is so good when your opposition have no damage vs. BKB.
Who should they have picked instead of tiny? Slardar wouldn't have done shit in the lane and would have never recovered because he can't farm. Nightstalker maybe could have worked, but would have encountered the same problems as Slardar.
Clock is perfect.
Unless I'm stupid and it was banned?
Clock works i guess, until he's tracked all game and nobody is afraid of him.
It's easy to shit on the tiny pick, but he was doing a lot of work in that game. He had quite a bit of farm and was absolutely pulling his weight despite being in an impossible lane to start.
He did next to nothing of importance aside from help Venge get to a good start by being useless in lane.
If you saw "next to nothing of importance" then you aren't a very sophisticated dota viewer. Sorry.
Tell us all the important things he did.
Doing as much damage as SF while providing all kinds of utility via lotus orb / force staff, items he would have never even dreamed of buying as a clockwork in that particular game.
Literally just called me an "unsophisticated viewer" whilst saying Clock would never dream of buying Force.
On December 10 2015 11:24 FuzzyJAM wrote: Tiny pick was fucking awful. Don't understand it at all for this game.
Even so, VG's draft was better than I initially thought. Swap is so good when your opposition have no damage vs. BKB.
Who should they have picked instead of tiny? Slardar wouldn't have done shit in the lane and would have never recovered because he can't farm. Nightstalker maybe could have worked, but would have encountered the same problems as Slardar.
Clock is perfect.
Unless I'm stupid and it was banned?
Clock works i guess, until he's tracked all game and nobody is afraid of him.
It's easy to shit on the tiny pick, but he was doing a lot of work in that game. He had quite a bit of farm and was absolutely pulling his weight despite being in an impossible lane to start.
He did next to nothing of importance aside from help Venge get to a good start by being useless in lane.
If you saw "next to nothing of importance" then you aren't a very sophisticated dota viewer. Sorry.
Tell us all the important things he did.
Doing as much damage as SF while providing all kinds of utility via lotus orb / force staff, items he would have never even dreamed of buying as a clockwork in that particular game.
Literally just called me an "unsophisticated viewer" whilst saying Clock would never dream of buying Force.
OK then.
I'm sure clock would have gotten a force, and 12 deaths to his name. Probably near dead last in net worth as well.
And I called you an unsophisticated viewer because your comment was a laughable observation of the game that took place.
On December 10 2015 11:24 FuzzyJAM wrote: Tiny pick was fucking awful. Don't understand it at all for this game.
Even so, VG's draft was better than I initially thought. Swap is so good when your opposition have no damage vs. BKB.
Who should they have picked instead of tiny? Slardar wouldn't have done shit in the lane and would have never recovered because he can't farm. Nightstalker maybe could have worked, but would have encountered the same problems as Slardar.
Clock is perfect.
Unless I'm stupid and it was banned?
Clock works i guess, until he's tracked all game and nobody is afraid of him.
It's easy to shit on the tiny pick, but he was doing a lot of work in that game. He had quite a bit of farm and was absolutely pulling his weight despite being in an impossible lane to start.
He did next to nothing of importance aside from help Venge get to a good start by being useless in lane.
If you saw "next to nothing of importance" then you aren't a very sophisticated dota viewer. Sorry.
Tell us all the important things he did.
Doing as much damage as SF while providing all kinds of utility via lotus orb / force staff, items he would have never even dreamed of buying as a clockwork in that particular game.
Literally just called me an "unsophisticated viewer" whilst saying Clock would never dream of buying Force.
OK then.
I'm sure clock would have gotten a force, and 12 deaths to his name. Probably near dead last in net worth as well.
And I called you an unsophisticated viewer because your comment was a laughable observation of the game that took place.
Totally contradicting yourself.
Anyway, here is what OG needed for an offlaner: someone who wasn't going to constantly die in lane - didn't need to risk himself because it's fine to be mostly starved, even in levels. Further, someone who is good at initiation despite not having an item, and also good at counter-initiation, and also good at scouting. Because they did not have this, Venge could rely on kills and Bounty to keep her up in networth (key weakness of VG draft), and also OG had no vision for the constant swaps. Further, because of the importance and lack of proper ways of dealing with the Swaps and other disables, SF had to build tanky - which meant he wasn't doing damage. Tiny doing damage is not actually a particularly good thing - OG already had damaging hereos, they needed an offlaner to allow their cores to build for that and unleash it, not spread out who was doing damage.
There you go, that's an extremely brief semi-drunk analysis. No doubt yours is much deeper, but given that you've literally said there's no way a Clock would dream of building a Force I'm not too fussed.
They were a game up in the upper bracket of a double elimination tournament. Maybe it wouldn't be the worst timing in the world to find out whether or not they can handle OG's dazzle/huskar combo or BDN's meepo. Lesson learnt. They can potentially do it, but they need to respect the huskar's tankiness in the mid-game a bit more.
On December 10 2015 12:29 syw651 wrote: They were a game up in the upper bracket of a double elimination tournament. Maybe it wouldn't be the worst timing in the world to find out whether or not they can handle OG's dazzle/huskar combo or BDN's meepo. Lesson learnt. They can potentially do it, but they need to respect the huskar's tankiness in the mid-game a bit more.
Watch there be massive huskar/dazzle nerfs by tomorrow morning :3
On December 10 2015 12:28 FuzzyJAM wrote: Anyway, here is what OG needed for an offlaner: someone who wasn't going to constantly die in lane - didn't need to risk himself because it's fine to be mostly starved, even in levels. Further, someone who is good at initiation despite not having an item, and also good at counter-initiation, and also good at scouting.
On December 10 2015 12:28 FuzzyJAM wrote: Anyway, here is what OG needed for an offlaner: someone who wasn't going to constantly die in lane - didn't need to risk himself because it's fine to be mostly starved, even in levels. Further, someone who is good at initiation despite not having an item, and also good at counter-initiation, and also good at scouting.
so... they needed Tusk?
Tusk is a pretty broken here and would have been nice but he was not available so. . .
On December 10 2015 11:30 dutchfriese wrote: [quote]
Who should they have picked instead of tiny? Slardar wouldn't have done shit in the lane and would have never recovered because he can't farm. Nightstalker maybe could have worked, but would have encountered the same problems as Slardar.
Clock is perfect.
Unless I'm stupid and it was banned?
Clock works i guess, until he's tracked all game and nobody is afraid of him.
It's easy to shit on the tiny pick, but he was doing a lot of work in that game. He had quite a bit of farm and was absolutely pulling his weight despite being in an impossible lane to start.
He did next to nothing of importance aside from help Venge get to a good start by being useless in lane.
If you saw "next to nothing of importance" then you aren't a very sophisticated dota viewer. Sorry.
Tell us all the important things he did.
Doing as much damage as SF while providing all kinds of utility via lotus orb / force staff, items he would have never even dreamed of buying as a clockwork in that particular game.
Literally just called me an "unsophisticated viewer" whilst saying Clock would never dream of buying Force.
OK then.
I'm sure clock would have gotten a force, and 12 deaths to his name. Probably near dead last in net worth as well.
And I called you an unsophisticated viewer because your comment was a laughable observation of the game that took place.
Totally contradicting yourself.
Anyway, here is what OG needed for an offlaner: someone who wasn't going to constantly die in lane - didn't need to risk himself because it's fine to be mostly starved, even in levels. Further, someone who is good at initiation despite not having an item, and also good at counter-initiation, and also good at scouting. Because they did not have this, Venge could rely on kills and Bounty to keep her up in networth (key weakness of VG draft), and also OG had no vision for the constant swaps. Further, because of the importance and lack of proper ways of dealing with the Swaps and other disables, SF had to build tanky - which meant he wasn't doing damage. Tiny doing damage is not actually a particularly good thing - OG already had damaging hereos, they needed an offlaner to allow their cores to build for that and unleash it, not spread out who was doing damage.
There you go, that's an extremely brief semi-drunk analysis. No doubt yours is much deeper, but given that you've literally said there's no way a Clock would dream of building a Force I'm not too fussed.
You should try reading my posts. My case for Tiny the entire time has been his ability to clear stacks. It didn't really matter which melee offlane hero they put in that lane, it was going to get destroyed no matter what. Here's the key difference between clockwork and Tiny, one can farm and one cannot. Ergo Clock would have never even come close to farming as much as a Tiny in that particular game.
Between track, being forced out of lane, 3 ranged heroes, nether swap, and snowball, there just wasn't that much merit to the clockwerk pick. It should be fairly obvious why they decided not to pick him.
On December 10 2015 12:48 snow2.0 wrote: What are these tiny bottles everyone has sitting next to them at the PCs? Water? Why is it portioned so small?
On December 10 2015 11:37 FuzzyJAM wrote: [quote] Clock is perfect.
Unless I'm stupid and it was banned?
Clock works i guess, until he's tracked all game and nobody is afraid of him.
It's easy to shit on the tiny pick, but he was doing a lot of work in that game. He had quite a bit of farm and was absolutely pulling his weight despite being in an impossible lane to start.
He did next to nothing of importance aside from help Venge get to a good start by being useless in lane.
If you saw "next to nothing of importance" then you aren't a very sophisticated dota viewer. Sorry.
Tell us all the important things he did.
Doing as much damage as SF while providing all kinds of utility via lotus orb / force staff, items he would have never even dreamed of buying as a clockwork in that particular game.
Literally just called me an "unsophisticated viewer" whilst saying Clock would never dream of buying Force.
OK then.
I'm sure clock would have gotten a force, and 12 deaths to his name. Probably near dead last in net worth as well.
And I called you an unsophisticated viewer because your comment was a laughable observation of the game that took place.
Totally contradicting yourself.
Anyway, here is what OG needed for an offlaner: someone who wasn't going to constantly die in lane - didn't need to risk himself because it's fine to be mostly starved, even in levels. Further, someone who is good at initiation despite not having an item, and also good at counter-initiation, and also good at scouting. Because they did not have this, Venge could rely on kills and Bounty to keep her up in networth (key weakness of VG draft), and also OG had no vision for the constant swaps. Further, because of the importance and lack of proper ways of dealing with the Swaps and other disables, SF had to build tanky - which meant he wasn't doing damage. Tiny doing damage is not actually a particularly good thing - OG already had damaging hereos, they needed an offlaner to allow their cores to build for that and unleash it, not spread out who was doing damage.
There you go, that's an extremely brief semi-drunk analysis. No doubt yours is much deeper, but given that you've literally said there's no way a Clock would dream of building a Force I'm not too fussed.
You should try reading my posts. My case for Tiny the entire time has been his ability to clear stacks. It didn't really matter which melee offlane hero they put in that lane, it was going to get destroyed no matter what. Here's the key difference between clockwork and Tiny, one can farm and one cannot. Ergo Clock would have never even come close to farming as much as a Tiny in that particular game.
Between track, being forced out of lane, 3 ranged heroes, nether swap, and snowball, there just wasn't that much merit to the clockwerk pick. It should be fairly obvious why they decided not to pick him.
An offlaner being able to clear stacks is good when you have an SF and PL on your team because. . .? You think they needed more jungling ability? Oh well, OK.
For my part, I'd say they needed a hero who was OK without farming, e.g. Clock, who, as I said, doesn't mind if he's starved in lane and is fundamentally about enabling without items. An offlaner who doesn't need to risk himself early, has strong initiation without items and strong counter-initiation and vision were what they needed way more than your argument that they needed an offlaner who could jungle quick. Clock is sacrificial and they needed at least one sacrifice for that draft.
(I also think Nightstalker would work well too, for the record - maybe moreso, I'm not sure. Vision was really really really important.)
But oh well, I don't think we're going to reach agreement here and we're onto game 3.
It's good to see VG winning through their draft, opposed to despite their drafts. Still have to see how their drafting holds up against EG or Secret though.
On December 10 2015 13:20 syw651 wrote: It's good to see VG winning through their draft, opposed to despite their drafts. Still have to see how their drafting holds up against EG or Secret though.
Very nicely done by Vici. I'm sure that someone will cite an earlier instance of them playing WK, but it almost seems like they picked the idea up from their loss to VP earlier. If they did get the idea from that, then it's a prime example of flexibility.
On December 10 2015 13:20 syw651 wrote: It's good to see VG winning through their draft, opposed to despite their drafts. Still have to see how their drafting holds up against EG or Secret though.
Secret is not in this tournament
I don't mean in this tournament, I just mean their drafting in general which has been rather lackluster.
On December 10 2015 13:20 syw651 wrote: It's good to see VG winning through their draft, opposed to despite their drafts. Still have to see how their drafting holds up against EG or Secret though.
yeah yeah sure everytime a western team lost to china always come "how will they do against EG and secret"
its like "bohooo west team lost, im going to tell my daddy team secret best doto ever"
On December 10 2015 13:16 plasmidghost wrote: Don't let Azarkon hear that ppd said that China is back Edit: Too late
Oh, he wants them to be back.
Because his team does well against them, not so much against European teams.
dunno old c9 with aui+pie(though c9 lost during the important elimination series and only won 2 elimination series against them .. the overall record against each other was like 10-10 or something) and secret 2.0 are the only teams that actually had good amount of wins against them
the rest not so much .. of course others had some series wins but everybody has series wins against everybody
On December 10 2015 13:23 Acritter wrote: Very nicely done by Vici. I'm sure that someone will cite an earlier instance of them playing WK, but it almost seems like they picked the idea up from their loss to VP earlier. If they did get the idea from that, then it's a prime example of flexibility.
Vici can play pretty much anything, so it is not out of the question they learn a lot of strategies from studying EU, that plays all the time.
Silencer, WK, Carry Venge, Disruptor, etc are proofs of studying opponents and their picks.
On December 10 2015 13:20 syw651 wrote: It's good to see VG winning through their draft, opposed to despite their drafts. Still have to see how their drafting holds up against EG or Secret though.
yeah yeah sure everytime a western team lost to china always come "how will they do against EG and secret"
Whenever a team does well, the next question is how they'll do against top competitors. I mean, VG really have beaten a top competitor here, but it always remains to be seen how they'll do against the other big Western teams. It's a sign of respect, more than anything.
On December 10 2015 13:20 syw651 wrote: It's good to see VG winning through their draft, opposed to despite their drafts. Still have to see how their drafting holds up against EG or Secret though.
yeah yeah sure everytime a western team lost to china always come "how will they do against EG and secret"
its like "bohooo west team lost, im going to tell my daddy team secret best doto ever"
He just hoped that VG's draft won't lose to EG's and Secret's like before. VG's draft is pretty infamous after all.
On December 10 2015 13:23 Acritter wrote: Very nicely done by Vici. I'm sure that someone will cite an earlier instance of them playing WK, but it almost seems like they picked the idea up from their loss to VP earlier. If they did get the idea from that, then it's a prime example of flexibility.
VG played WK 2 other times this patch (one of them was fy support WK though) Burning has played it a total of 4 times in pro games (twice on DK, twice on VG)
On December 10 2015 13:23 Acritter wrote: Very nicely done by Vici. I'm sure that someone will cite an earlier instance of them playing WK, but it almost seems like they picked the idea up from their loss to VP earlier. If they did get the idea from that, then it's a prime example of flexibility.
Vici can play pretty much anything, so it is not out of the question they learn a lot of strategies from studying EU, that plays all the time.
Silencer, WK, Disruptor, etc are proofs of studying opponents and their picks.
Thing is the past 3 months have been them trying all these things and mostly failing.
Just really happy that they are finally getting some solid wins against good teams, using a variety of drafts.
On December 10 2015 13:23 Acritter wrote: Very nicely done by Vici. I'm sure that someone will cite an earlier instance of them playing WK, but it almost seems like they picked the idea up from their loss to VP earlier. If they did get the idea from that, then it's a prime example of flexibility.
Vici can play pretty much anything, so it is not out of the question they learn a lot of strategies from studying EU, that plays all the time.
Silencer, WK, Disruptor, etc are proofs of studying opponents and their picks.
Thing is the past 3 months have been them trying all these things and mostly failing.
Just really happy that they are finally getting some solid wins against good teams, using a variety of drafts.
The past 3 months had Super captaining. They only just gave it back to Fy.
On December 10 2015 13:20 syw651 wrote: It's good to see VG winning through their draft, opposed to despite their drafts. Still have to see how their drafting holds up against EG or Secret though.
yeah yeah sure everytime a western team lost to china always come "how will they do against EG and secret"
its like "bohooo west team lost, im going to tell my daddy team secret best doto ever"
If you look at my flair, clearly I'm not pro-western teams vs the east in general. What I mean by my previous statement is that VG seem to have been playing a bit below expectations lately and my personal opinion is that it is due to their drafting. In many games against teams they are favoured against, they lost because of their drafts and even in some games were they won they seem to have won despite them because they were a better team mechanically. So I'm just glad to see the team I support making progress in an area that hadn't been their strongest previously and I hope they continue this trend.
I mention Secret and EG because they have captain that are well known for their drafting ability, but if xiao8 was active atm I would have mentioned his team too.
On December 10 2015 13:23 Acritter wrote: Very nicely done by Vici. I'm sure that someone will cite an earlier instance of them playing WK, but it almost seems like they picked the idea up from their loss to VP earlier. If they did get the idea from that, then it's a prime example of flexibility.
Vici can play pretty much anything, so it is not out of the question they learn a lot of strategies from studying EU, that plays all the time.
Silencer, WK, Disruptor, etc are proofs of studying opponents and their picks.
Thing is the past 3 months have been them trying all these things and mostly failing.
Just really happy that they are finally getting some solid wins against good teams, using a variety of drafts.
The past 3 months had Super captaining. They only just gave it back to Fy.
1-Fuck huskar-dazzle 2-OG dont seem hot at all after the major 3-I'd love if vici and some other team figure out new things of this patch just before the new one hits and we will be like "DAMN there was more things to be discovered".
On December 10 2015 13:23 Acritter wrote: Very nicely done by Vici. I'm sure that someone will cite an earlier instance of them playing WK, but it almost seems like they picked the idea up from their loss to VP earlier. If they did get the idea from that, then it's a prime example of flexibility.
Vici can play pretty much anything, so it is not out of the question they learn a lot of strategies from studying EU, that plays all the time.
Silencer, WK, Disruptor, etc are proofs of studying opponents and their picks.
Thing is the past 3 months have been them trying all these things and mostly failing.
Just really happy that they are finally getting some solid wins against good teams, using a variety of drafts.
The past 3 months had Super captaining. They only just gave it back to Fy.
why would they remove Fy from captain again ?
I don't know the real reason, but I felt like it was because fy couldn't captain and play at his usual level at the same time. It wouldn't be so bad if he played at 80% all the time, but it felt more like he was playing at 100% some games and 50% in others which was a serious liability.
On December 10 2015 13:20 syw651 wrote: It's good to see VG winning through their draft, opposed to despite their drafts. Still have to see how their drafting holds up against EG or Secret though.
yeah yeah sure everytime a western team lost to china always come "how will they do against EG and secret"
its like "bohooo west team lost, im going to tell my daddy team secret best doto ever"
I mention Secret and EG because they have captain that are well known for their drafting ability, but if xiao8 was active atm I would have mentioned his team too.
I would argue that lanm is a better drafter than xiao8
1-Fuck huskar-dazzle 2-OG dont seem hot at all after the major 3-I'd love if vici and some other team figure out new things of this patch just before the new one hits and we will be like "DAMN there was more things to be discovered".
On December 10 2015 13:20 syw651 wrote: It's good to see VG winning through their draft, opposed to despite their drafts. Still have to see how their drafting holds up against EG or Secret though.
yeah yeah sure everytime a western team lost to china always come "how will they do against EG and secret"
its like "bohooo west team lost, im going to tell my daddy team secret best doto ever"
I mention Secret and EG because they have captain that are well known for their drafting ability, but if xiao8 was active atm I would have mentioned his team too.
I would argue that lanm is a better drafter than xiao8
Fair enough. I would like to see them put up strong drafts against Ehome as well. There's the added benefit of Ehome actually being in this tournament, so it could happen soon.
Edit: I should clarify I mean in this tournament opposed to Secret. I am aware of who that voice smack talking DC belongs to and which team he plays on.
This iteration of VG with fy captain seems like focussing on squeezing as much of out of BurNing as possible making use of his versatileness..
and not surprised to see him play ember and venge pretty good after seeing him play those 2 in CDEC inhouse leagues...i ,like watch his games regularly and never saw him playing am there...it's always ember or venge or PL(though he lost 2 out of 4 games on this hero)
On December 10 2015 13:56 lolfail9001 wrote: Wait a fucking minute, Burning wrecking shit on carry Venge.
Damn, my netbook died in worst possible moment.
i am still baffled by how the fucking fuck burning managed to get 643 gpm and 27k networth on venge...
The amazing thing for me that game was how he did it with a Lina and a tusk as his other two cores. Normally, when VP run VS as their safelane farmer she has more right-click orientated cores in pos 2/3 and ends up feeling more like a safelane QoP than a safelane AM.
On December 10 2015 13:23 Acritter wrote: Very nicely done by Vici. I'm sure that someone will cite an earlier instance of them playing WK, but it almost seems like they picked the idea up from their loss to VP earlier. If they did get the idea from that, then it's a prime example of flexibility.
Vici can play pretty much anything, so it is not out of the question they learn a lot of strategies from studying EU, that plays all the time.
Silencer, WK, Disruptor, etc are proofs of studying opponents and their picks.
Thing is the past 3 months have been them trying all these things and mostly failing.
Just really happy that they are finally getting some solid wins against good teams, using a variety of drafts.
The past 3 months had Super captaining. They only just gave it back to Fy.
why would they remove Fy from captain again ?
It was initially because Hao's an idiot. Not sure about after that.
On December 10 2015 13:23 Acritter wrote: Very nicely done by Vici. I'm sure that someone will cite an earlier instance of them playing WK, but it almost seems like they picked the idea up from their loss to VP earlier. If they did get the idea from that, then it's a prime example of flexibility.
Vici can play pretty much anything, so it is not out of the question they learn a lot of strategies from studying EU, that plays all the time.
Silencer, WK, Disruptor, etc are proofs of studying opponents and their picks.
Thing is the past 3 months have been them trying all these things and mostly failing.
Just really happy that they are finally getting some solid wins against good teams, using a variety of drafts.
The past 3 months had Super captaining. They only just gave it back to Fy.
why would they remove Fy from captain again ?
I don't know the real reason, but I felt like it was because fy couldn't captain and play at his usual level at the same time. It wouldn't be so bad if he played at 80% all the time, but it felt more like he was playing at 100% some games and 50% in others which was a serious liability.
On December 10 2015 13:56 lolfail9001 wrote: Wait a fucking minute, Burning wrecking shit on carry Venge.
Damn, my netbook died in worst possible moment.
i am still baffled by how the fucking fuck burning managed to get 643 gpm and 27k networth on venge...
how can core venge, lina, tusk beat core nevermore, PL, tiny in a 50 min game ?
OG were ahead for exactly 2 minutes that entire game also reminder that carry Venge's issue isn't her ability to scale, it's that she sucks at farming, which isn't a problem when you have a BH on your team and you're constantly getting kills
also VG were really good about killing Rubick at the start of every fight and getting full duration Fiend's Grip on SF/PL
On December 10 2015 13:23 Acritter wrote: Very nicely done by Vici. I'm sure that someone will cite an earlier instance of them playing WK, but it almost seems like they picked the idea up from their loss to VP earlier. If they did get the idea from that, then it's a prime example of flexibility.
Vici can play pretty much anything, so it is not out of the question they learn a lot of strategies from studying EU, that plays all the time.
Silencer, WK, Disruptor, etc are proofs of studying opponents and their picks.
Thing is the past 3 months have been them trying all these things and mostly failing.
Just really happy that they are finally getting some solid wins against good teams, using a variety of drafts.
The past 3 months had Super captaining. They only just gave it back to Fy.
why would they remove Fy from captain again ?
I don't know the real reason, but I felt like it was because fy couldn't captain and play at his usual level at the same time. It wouldn't be so bad if he played at 80% all the time, but it felt more like he was playing at 100% some games and 50% in others which was a serious liability.
pretty sure it's super captain fy drafter
edit: is it? or is fy both captain and drafter?
from memory, fy posted on weibo just before their flight back to china after frankfurt saying he;s back to being captain and drafter
On December 10 2015 13:56 lolfail9001 wrote: Wait a fucking minute, Burning wrecking shit on carry Venge.
Damn, my netbook died in worst possible moment.
i am still baffled by how the fucking fuck burning managed to get 643 gpm and 27k networth on venge...
how can core venge, lina, tusk beat core nevermore, PL, tiny in a 50 min game ?
OG were ahead for exactly 2 minutes that entire game also reminder that carry Venge's issue isn't her ability to scale, it's that she sucks at farming, which isn't a problem when you have a BH on your team and you're constantly getting kills
also VG were really good about killing Rubick at the start of every fight and getting full duration Fiend's Grip on SF/PL
Venge can scale in late game ? I know her stat growth is great but none of her skill set is late game-ish ? and isnt she's supposed to be so soft
anyway grabbing fiends grip 8/10 on a PL is Godlike job I have to say
On December 10 2015 13:56 lolfail9001 wrote: Wait a fucking minute, Burning wrecking shit on carry Venge.
Damn, my netbook died in worst possible moment.
i am still baffled by how the fucking fuck burning managed to get 643 gpm and 27k networth on venge...
how can core venge, lina, tusk beat core nevermore, PL, tiny in a 50 min game ?
OG were ahead for exactly 2 minutes that entire game also reminder that carry Venge's issue isn't her ability to scale, it's that she sucks at farming, which isn't a problem when you have a BH on your team and you're constantly getting kills
also VG were really good about killing Rubick at the start of every fight and getting full duration Fiend's Grip on SF/PL
Venge can scale in late game ? I know her stat growth is great but none of her skill set is late game-ish ? and isnt she's supposed to be so soft
anyway grabbing fiends grip 8/10 on a PL is Godlike job I have to say
On December 10 2015 13:56 lolfail9001 wrote: Wait a fucking minute, Burning wrecking shit on carry Venge.
Damn, my netbook died in worst possible moment.
i am still baffled by how the fucking fuck burning managed to get 643 gpm and 27k networth on venge...
how can core venge, lina, tusk beat core nevermore, PL, tiny in a 50 min game ?
OG were ahead for exactly 2 minutes that entire game also reminder that carry Venge's issue isn't her ability to scale, it's that she sucks at farming, which isn't a problem when you have a BH on your team and you're constantly getting kills
also VG were really good about killing Rubick at the start of every fight and getting full duration Fiend's Grip on SF/PL
Venge can scale in late game ? I know her stat growth is great but none of her skill set is late game-ish ? and isnt she's supposed to be so soft
anyway grabbing fiends grip 8/10 on a PL is Godlike job I have to say
On December 10 2015 13:56 lolfail9001 wrote: Wait a fucking minute, Burning wrecking shit on carry Venge.
Damn, my netbook died in worst possible moment.
i am still baffled by how the fucking fuck burning managed to get 643 gpm and 27k networth on venge...
a lot of kills and a lot of farm
my point was not that....the thing that u said is often not done with vengeful spirit..when her idea as a carry came into existence ,she was like played as a role between offlane and semi carry ..but burning took it too the am level carry
On December 10 2015 13:56 lolfail9001 wrote: Wait a fucking minute, Burning wrecking shit on carry Venge.
Damn, my netbook died in worst possible moment.
i am still baffled by how the fucking fuck burning managed to get 643 gpm and 27k networth on venge...
how can core venge, lina, tusk beat core nevermore, PL, tiny in a 50 min game ?
OG were ahead for exactly 2 minutes that entire game also reminder that carry Venge's issue isn't her ability to scale, it's that she sucks at farming, which isn't a problem when you have a BH on your team and you're constantly getting kills
also VG were really good about killing Rubick at the start of every fight and getting full duration Fiend's Grip on SF/PL
Venge can scale in late game ? I know her stat growth is great but none of her skill set is late game-ish ? and isnt she's supposed to be so soft
Both the aura and the minus armor are % type modifyers so they actually scale better lategame, and swap is always good no matter what. The only reason you don't often see VS carry is the fact that all three of this ability are actual "team wide" so other carry in your team would benefit even if VS itself is a support. The only drawback for VS lategame is her lack of AOE clear for flashfarming, compared to razes, glaives, calldown/flack ecc.
On December 10 2015 13:56 lolfail9001 wrote: Wait a fucking minute, Burning wrecking shit on carry Venge.
Damn, my netbook died in worst possible moment.
i am still baffled by how the fucking fuck burning managed to get 643 gpm and 27k networth on venge...
how can core venge, lina, tusk beat core nevermore, PL, tiny in a 50 min game ?
OG were ahead for exactly 2 minutes that entire game also reminder that carry Venge's issue isn't her ability to scale, it's that she sucks at farming, which isn't a problem when you have a BH on your team and you're constantly getting kills
also VG were really good about killing Rubick at the start of every fight and getting full duration Fiend's Grip on SF/PL
Venge can scale in late game ? I know her stat growth is great but none of her skill set is late game-ish ? and isnt she's supposed to be so soft
anyway grabbing fiends grip 8/10 on a PL is Godlike job I have to say
Swap and her aura are both very good lategame
yes, but it's a support stuff, no ?
It's not exclusively carry, but Venge definitely uses her own aura and -armor just fine. I would not risk running that without BH though.
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thought im going to catch the first map before a friend BD 
)))) , hoping for some Universe and Miracle casting , Universe is a funny dude with all his drawings and videos just need to open up 
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