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On August 07 2013 03:39 LemOn wrote:
Alliance has been dodging Na'Vi by losing on purpose 3x in a row in lesser tournaments, I so want to see the pocket strats they have ready just for them
Do you honestly believe that?
I don't seeing as na'vi are one of the only teams that will scrim with Alliance. You can check lodas twitter and his blog, and there is a video on the navi site where puppeys saying they will scrim.
I think the last 2 games sets they have played its been 2-2 this is since the new na'vi roster started playing well. Overall i do believe alliance has a better record.
I think though, that both teams will be saving pocket strats. Alliance vs LGD will be extremely interesting.
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On August 07 2013 04:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 03:20 Azarkon wrote:
Bulldog simply out farms everyone on LGD but Sylar. Alliance is able to find farm for all their heroes while still keeping Loda in decent shape I'm hesitant to really say this because finding farm on everyone is a pretty natural product of winning games. The only game of the tournament where Alliance really looked like they were losing was their game 1 vs. Tongfu, and in that game, their farm distribution was not really anything out of the ordinary.
But in that game, they were running an early game line up with S4 Timber, Bulldog Bounty, and Loda Weaver. Not exactly a line up designed to scale well with farm. It was a different play style for them and they kept up in the mid to late via track trading, though Loda did find monstrous farm on Weaver which is what allowed them to take fights against Alchemist QoP Magnus with Weaver Timber Bounty.
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United States47024 Posts
I think that's a fair assessment of that game, but my point is that it's hard to judge by the other games in the tournament because it's in losing games where a team's ability to allocate farm is really put to the test. In a winning game it's pretty natural that all 5 players get farmed, and I don't think Alliance has had a game other than that one where they were losing hard enough to feel that pressure.
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What alliance really shows imo is that execution is still superior to drafting, they're playing the same style for months now but they execute it really well.
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On August 07 2013 04:08 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 03:54 Azarkon wrote:
Loda = Sylar, S4 >= Yao, Bulldog > Xiao8, Akke & EGM > DD & DDC I would put s4 firmly ahead of Yao if this is how you're doing comparisons. Yao's shortcoming as a mid player has always been that he's somewhat passive, and has lackluster gank execution/sense, which means he provides fairly limited gank/countergank pressure on the sidelanes. This is exemplified by his most comfortable mid hero of TI2 being Invoker, who typically tends to stay on lane for a very long time. S4 definitely strikes me as by far the most improved DotA player of the past year. The rate at which he developed into a world-class solo mid player in all aspects is just amazing.
Yao's passivity goes hand in hand with the heroes he plays, though, and LGD's style.
I was impressed with his Magnus, while S4's Timber was nothing to write home about.
IMO, S4 is a solid mid player who doesn't simply snowball the game the way a player ie Dendi does, but who nonetheless has an impressive impact throughout the game. When Alliance stomps due to one player, that player is normally Bulldog on LD NP / EGM on Wisp. Loda and S4 are the backbone of the team, but they're not snowball players.
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On August 07 2013 04:16 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 04:08 TheYango wrote:On August 07 2013 03:54 Azarkon wrote:
Loda = Sylar, S4 >= Yao, Bulldog > Xiao8, Akke & EGM > DD & DDC I would put s4 firmly ahead of Yao if this is how you're doing comparisons. Yao's shortcoming as a mid player has always been that he's somewhat passive, and has lackluster gank execution/sense, which means he provides fairly limited gank/countergank pressure on the sidelanes. This is exemplified by his most comfortable mid hero of TI2 being Invoker, who typically tends to stay on lane for a very long time. S4 definitely strikes me as by far the most improved DotA player of the past year. The rate at which he developed into a world-class solo mid player in all aspects is just amazing. Yao's passivity goes hand in hand with the heroes he plays, though, and LGD's style. I was impressed with his Magnus, while S4's Timber was nothing to write home about. IMO, S4 is a solid mid player who doesn't simply snowball the game the way a player ie Dendi does, but who nonetheless has an impressive impact throughout the game. When Alliance stomps due to one player, that player is normally Bulldog on LD NP / EGM on Wisp. Loda and S4 are the backbone of the team, but they're not snowball players.
I find Akke to be the backbone of the Team TBH..I've seen S4 and Loda have bad games and in case of loda even fail spectacularly sometimes but Akke and EGM are forever Solid..
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On August 07 2013 03:54 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 03:35 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On August 07 2013 03:15 Azarkon wrote:On August 07 2013 02:28 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On August 07 2013 01:37 Colston wrote:
Sylar has been the shining player in a disappointing team, whilst Loda has also been shining but in a team where it's harder to shine. That's bullshit, to be honest. On August 06 2013 17:31 Azarkon wrote:
LGD is very stubborn when it comes to sticking to the same strategy and style, and Alliance has come out and said that they think this is a stupid way to play the game and that they're prepared to counter it with greater flexibility. The best shot LGD has is via a prepared pocket strat, but I've not been impressed by LGD's pocket strats in other tournaments. Ultimately, I just don't see what advantage LGD has over Alliance. What LGD is able to do, Alliance is also able to do, but it's not the case the other way around. In every role except for carry, Alliance has greater skill, and that alone ought to be enough to beat LGD Akke is more skilled than DD or DDC, Yao is less skilled than AB? How about you try to prove it and humilate yourself in process. Yao is spectacular on no hero presently played in the off lane. I am smart enough to ask for PROOFS, not your OPINION, dude. I take back what I said about Yao being the position 3 player. From a cursory look at his results in TI 3, the bulk of the times he's the position 2 player for LGD in TI 3 even though he doesn't mid solo every time.
>I take back what I said about Yao being the position 3 player.
>Yao is spectacular on no hero presently played in the off lane.
When would you stop treating people stupid enough to not see through your blatant sugarcoating? Despite that, it's significant progress at our hands - I don't remember you retreating from your biased statements even once. Now show me why you think Akke is better than DD and DDC, and we are done.
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that allstar match is so hard to predict..
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^ Are the Allstar matches like this with players thrown randomly together usually any good? Maybe I'm way underestimating how quickly people can figure out how to work together, but it seems like it'd be a clusterfuck of players either doing their own thing or trying to work together and messing up horribly.
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On August 07 2013 04:25 ForTehDarkseid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 03:54 Azarkon wrote:On August 07 2013 03:35 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On August 07 2013 03:15 Azarkon wrote:On August 07 2013 02:28 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On August 07 2013 01:37 Colston wrote:
Sylar has been the shining player in a disappointing team, whilst Loda has also been shining but in a team where it's harder to shine. That's bullshit, to be honest. On August 06 2013 17:31 Azarkon wrote:
LGD is very stubborn when it comes to sticking to the same strategy and style, and Alliance has come out and said that they think this is a stupid way to play the game and that they're prepared to counter it with greater flexibility. The best shot LGD has is via a prepared pocket strat, but I've not been impressed by LGD's pocket strats in other tournaments. Ultimately, I just don't see what advantage LGD has over Alliance. What LGD is able to do, Alliance is also able to do, but it's not the case the other way around. In every role except for carry, Alliance has greater skill, and that alone ought to be enough to beat LGD Akke is more skilled than DD or DDC, Yao is less skilled than AB? How about you try to prove it and humilate yourself in process. Yao is spectacular on no hero presently played in the off lane. I am smart enough to ask for PROOFS, not your OPINION, dude. I take back what I said about Yao being the position 3 player. From a cursory look at his results in TI 3, the bulk of the times he's the position 2 player for LGD in TI 3 even though he doesn't mid solo every time. >I take back what I said about Yao being the position 3 player. >Yao is spectacular on no hero presently played in the off lane. When would you stop treating people stupid enough to not see through your blatant sugarcoating? Despite that, it's significant progress at our hands - I don't remember you retreating from your biased statements even once. Now show me why you think Akke is better than DD and DDC, and we are done.
His micro. See TF vs. Alliance.
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On August 07 2013 04:50 babylon wrote:
^ Are the Allstar matches like this with players thrown randomly together usually any good? Maybe I'm way underestimating how quickly people can figure out how to work together, but it seems like it'd be a clusterfuck of players either doing their own thing or trying to work together and messing up horribly.
Here is my way of approaching it:
Expect fun and craziness.
Expect hilarious fails due to players having trouble communicating, trying to teamplay, or playing intuitively like they are with their proper teams, thus failing horribly in this particular matchup.
Expect some brilliant plays and a lot of individual flair.
Expect the team who fails less to win.
Expect the players trying to have fun, not hardcore win. Expect to be entertained, and I hope, no butthurt feelings from stupid fanboys.
Will the match skill be high? No. Will it be fun? Yes!
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On August 07 2013 02:28 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
That's bullshit, to be honest.
What is bullshit about it?
Has LGD not disappointed? Has Loda been worse than Sylar? Haven't Alliance played better as a team?
Please tell me what was bullshit?
...Well, as long as you are honest.
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On August 07 2013 02:32 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 01:37 Colston wrote:On August 06 2013 17:31 Azarkon wrote:
No cause for Alliance to fall now. LGD is very stubborn when it comes to sticking to the same strategy and style, and Alliance has come out and said that they think this is a stupid way to play the game and that they're prepared to counter it with greater flexibility. The best shot LGD has is via a prepared pocket strat, but I've not been impressed by LGD's pocket strats in other tournaments. Ultimately, I just don't see what advantage LGD has over Alliance. What LGD is able to do, Alliance is also able to do, but it's not the case the other way around. In every role except for carry, Alliance has greater skill, and that alone ought to be enough to beat LGD.
Na'Vi vs. Orange... You guys simply don't get how Orange chokes on LAN in important matches. Besides which, this is not a year ago when Na'Vi had a skill disadvantage vs. Orange in the middle and carry roles. Orange no longer has an in form Yamateh, nor is Dendi still < Mushi. Na'Vi vs. Orange ought to be a fun series with flashy plays from both sides, but Na'Vi is going to come out on top.
To me, the biggest swing match in the Ro8 is Fnatic vs. TF. Fnatic has looked great but they've also looked less than great. They have a lot of LAN experience and ought to not choke, but in skill they're not ahead of Tongfu. Hell, I think TF has a slight edge in skill on Fnatic, so that it comes down to the draft and how well each team prepares vs. the other.
iG vs. DK is another swing match. iG has greater clutch, while DK has finer form. Clutch vs. form, I go with clutch, but this math is very difficult to call even though DK looks ahead in the group stages.
A day's break gives these teams plenty of time to talk over the prelims and prepare strategies. I think the Ro8 is going to involve a different level of mind games and pocket strats. I'm not even sure LGD has a stronger carry than Alliance either. Sylar has been the shining player in a disappointing team, whilst Loda has also been shining but in a team where it's harder to shine. Sylar may have more fantasy points or whatever, but he hasn't played any better than Loda has. (Don't worry people, I don't think Loda is a god or anything, I'm actually surprised how well and consistent he's been this tournament) Not that any of this is even relevant as come game day anything can happen. They don't, but I don't think Sylar < Loda, while I think Xiao8 < S4, Yao < Bulldog, DD < EGM, and DDC < Akke. IMO, a lot of the success of Na'Vi and Alliance comes from them having simply a greater amount of raw skill in each role, on average.
I never tried to say Sylar is worse than Loda, all I said is he hasn't been so much better that it's actually noticable if you try to compare.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
guys LGD-alliance is playoffs day 2, spread the love by arguing over in that thread as well plz ;p
i still challenge you guys to break 2k pages in total for TI3 ;p
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cant wait guys, cant wait, probably going to bet some rares against Alliance for fun.
Go mous
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On August 07 2013 02:32 Azarkon wrote:
They don't, but I don't think Sylar < Loda, while I think Xiao8 < S4, Yao < Bulldog, DD < EGM, and DDC < Akke.
IMO, a lot of the success of Na'Vi and Alliance comes from them having simply a greater amount of raw skill in each role, on average.
Historically i think that's probably true but i don't think 'form' is way more important. I would actually state that Na'vi are more highly skilled than Alliance the results over the past 6 months don't show that. I think if both teams played at the top of their level Na'vi would win, this doesn't happen though and form and strategy count. When your form is poor or your having an off day you have to rely on strategy and this is Alliances' strength. They've managed to play consistently amazing through good drafting and everyone knowing precisely what to do at specific times.
On the other hand Na'vi seem to rely way more on 1vs1 matchups and dominating the opponent skill wise. Dendi was in a slump 2/3 months ago and people were saying s4 and fata were better players than him and there was a big debate full of the usual morons on the JD forums. Now hes playing better again and the team are functioning better.
Another example vs fnatic xboct said their loss was because they didn't have a strategy prepared they just picked groups of 2 heroes that they thought would synergise with each other and tried to win that way.
I expect the Chinese teams to be a completely different beast in the playoffs. Fnatic had 1 really good series against Na'vi they beat zenith with a wisp and LGD with a nice strat. They are going to need some very nice pocket strats in the playoffs to beat Tongfu who are a very good team, unfortunately they may well end up like Complexity and EG last year.
I also think LGD will raise their game significantly in the playoffs, they were bottom in the groupstages of the alienware cup and then beat zenith, DK who one could argue were the favourites as well as Na'vi to get to the final. It was an interesting decision by Alliance and it could be because they fear pocketstrats and they feel they can beat LGD straight up. It will be a great series hopefully.
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On August 07 2013 05:34 Colston wrote:Has Loda been worse than Sylar? Haven't Alliance played better as a team? What is bullshit about it?
On August 07 2013 01:37 Colston wrote:
Sylar has been the shining player in a disappointing team, whilst Loda has also been shining but in a team where it's harder to shine.
OK, here is the deal. I quoted your own sentence and you apparently don't understand what your own sentence was supposed to mean. Well, we could divide it into two parts:
The statement about Alliance being the team where it's harder for carry to "shine" is bullshit.
The statement about Sylar being the only one who are doing well, while all his teammates suck is bullshit.
Hope it helps.
Has LGD not disappointed?
Differs from person to person, I suppose.
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On August 07 2013 05:11 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 04:25 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On August 07 2013 03:54 Azarkon wrote:On August 07 2013 03:35 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On August 07 2013 03:15 Azarkon wrote:On August 07 2013 02:28 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On August 07 2013 01:37 Colston wrote:
Sylar has been the shining player in a disappointing team, whilst Loda has also been shining but in a team where it's harder to shine. That's bullshit, to be honest. On August 06 2013 17:31 Azarkon wrote:
LGD is very stubborn when it comes to sticking to the same strategy and style, and Alliance has come out and said that they think this is a stupid way to play the game and that they're prepared to counter it with greater flexibility. The best shot LGD has is via a prepared pocket strat, but I've not been impressed by LGD's pocket strats in other tournaments. Ultimately, I just don't see what advantage LGD has over Alliance. What LGD is able to do, Alliance is also able to do, but it's not the case the other way around. In every role except for carry, Alliance has greater skill, and that alone ought to be enough to beat LGD Akke is more skilled than DD or DDC, Yao is less skilled than AB? How about you try to prove it and humilate yourself in process. Yao is spectacular on no hero presently played in the off lane. I am smart enough to ask for PROOFS, not your OPINION, dude. I take back what I said about Yao being the position 3 player. From a cursory look at his results in TI 3, the bulk of the times he's the position 2 player for LGD in TI 3 even though he doesn't mid solo every time. >I take back what I said about Yao being the position 3 player. >Yao is spectacular on no hero presently played in the off lane. When would you stop treating people stupid enough to not see through your blatant sugarcoating? Despite that, it's significant progress at our hands - I don't remember you retreating from your biased statements even once. Now show me why you think Akke is better than DD and DDC, and we are done. His micro. See TF vs. Alliance.
I could agree Akke is better Ench / Chen than DD. But that's not enough. DD / ddc 's heropools are twice as larger and Akke is rather bad with Visage on top of that.
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Akke hasn't played Visage for Alliance this TI 3. He gets Chen / Enchant in 70-80% of the games and the in the rest he plays KOTL / Venom / CM, which he's no worse than DD / DDC at. I see no cause to believe his hero pool is small; that's up to the drafter and given that Alliance has yet to lose, I don't think their draft is a problem.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://31.media.tumblr.com/403a3c9da2995bcdf90b59604e737ec0/tumblr_mqefvfpsI61qbxlyfo1_500.jpg)
