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On August 06 2013 17:31 Azarkon wrote:
No cause for Alliance to fall now. LGD is very stubborn when it comes to sticking to the same strategy and style, and Alliance has come out and said that they think this is a stupid way to play the game and that they're prepared to counter it with greater flexibility. The best shot LGD has is via a prepared pocket strat, but I've not been impressed by LGD's pocket strats in other tournaments. Ultimately, I just don't see what advantage LGD has over Alliance. What LGD is able to do, Alliance is also able to do, but it's not the case the other way around. In every role except for carry, Alliance has greater skill, and that alone ought to be enough to beat LGD.
Na'Vi vs. Orange... You guys simply don't get how Orange chokes on LAN in important matches. Besides which, this is not a year ago when Na'Vi had a skill disadvantage vs. Orange in the middle and carry roles. Orange no longer has an in form Yamateh, nor is Dendi still < Mushi. Na'Vi vs. Orange ought to be a fun series with flashy plays from both sides, but Na'Vi is going to come out on top.
To me, the biggest swing match in the Ro8 is Fnatic vs. TF. Fnatic has looked great but they've also looked less than great. They have a lot of LAN experience and ought to not choke, but in skill they're not ahead of Tongfu. Hell, I think TF has a slight edge in skill on Fnatic, so that it comes down to the draft and how well each team prepares vs. the other.
iG vs. DK is another swing match. iG has greater clutch, while DK has finer form. Clutch vs. form, I go with clutch, but this math is very difficult to call even though DK looks ahead in the group stages.
A day's break gives these teams plenty of time to talk over the prelims and prepare strategies. I think the Ro8 is going to involve a different level of mind games and pocket strats.
I'm not even sure LGD has a stronger carry than Alliance either. Sylar has been the shining player in a disappointing team, whilst Loda has also been shining but in a team where it's harder to shine.
Sylar may have more fantasy points or whatever, but he hasn't played any better than Loda has. (Don't worry people, I don't think Loda is a god or anything, I'm actually surprised how well and consistent he's been this tournament) Not that any of this is even relevant as come game day anything can happen.
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On August 06 2013 20:27 Goshawk. wrote:
I really can't see LGD beating A, I think it's going to be a complete stomp especially seeing how LGD played against dig.
Navi VS Orange, can't see orange winning this one either. TF vs fnatic and iG vs DK should be the games to watch in the upper bracket.
Let's be honest, unless there is an upset, it's looking like a Na'Vi vs Alliance grand final. Not that that's bad though, actually I suspect it's going to be pretty much the most epic game that has ever been played in any tournament. (If it happens)
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On August 07 2013 01:37 Colston wrote:
Sylar has been the shining player in a disappointing team, whilst Loda has also been shining but in a team where it's harder to shine.
That's bullshit, to be honest.
On August 06 2013 17:31 Azarkon wrote:
LGD is very stubborn when it comes to sticking to the same strategy and style, and Alliance has come out and said that they think this is a stupid way to play the game and that they're prepared to counter it with greater flexibility. The best shot LGD has is via a prepared pocket strat, but I've not been impressed by LGD's pocket strats in other tournaments. Ultimately, I just don't see what advantage LGD has over Alliance. What LGD is able to do, Alliance is also able to do, but it's not the case the other way around. In every role except for carry, Alliance has greater skill, and that alone ought to be enough to beat LGD
Akke is more skilled than DD or DDC, Yao is less skilled than AB? How about you try to prove it and humilate yourself in process.
I remember only one LGD's POCKET strat that failed: Sylar's Brood against AB's LD. And people seem to have forgotten LGD changed their style competely for TI playoffs last time. I am not implying that they will do it this year or / and it will be enough to take Alliance down, but people should stop downgrading them for good measure. I know I am asking impossible from Azarkon, but I am as stubborn as my favorite team.
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On August 07 2013 01:37 Colston wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 17:31 Azarkon wrote:
No cause for Alliance to fall now. LGD is very stubborn when it comes to sticking to the same strategy and style, and Alliance has come out and said that they think this is a stupid way to play the game and that they're prepared to counter it with greater flexibility. The best shot LGD has is via a prepared pocket strat, but I've not been impressed by LGD's pocket strats in other tournaments. Ultimately, I just don't see what advantage LGD has over Alliance. What LGD is able to do, Alliance is also able to do, but it's not the case the other way around. In every role except for carry, Alliance has greater skill, and that alone ought to be enough to beat LGD.
Na'Vi vs. Orange... You guys simply don't get how Orange chokes on LAN in important matches. Besides which, this is not a year ago when Na'Vi had a skill disadvantage vs. Orange in the middle and carry roles. Orange no longer has an in form Yamateh, nor is Dendi still < Mushi. Na'Vi vs. Orange ought to be a fun series with flashy plays from both sides, but Na'Vi is going to come out on top.
To me, the biggest swing match in the Ro8 is Fnatic vs. TF. Fnatic has looked great but they've also looked less than great. They have a lot of LAN experience and ought to not choke, but in skill they're not ahead of Tongfu. Hell, I think TF has a slight edge in skill on Fnatic, so that it comes down to the draft and how well each team prepares vs. the other.
iG vs. DK is another swing match. iG has greater clutch, while DK has finer form. Clutch vs. form, I go with clutch, but this math is very difficult to call even though DK looks ahead in the group stages.
A day's break gives these teams plenty of time to talk over the prelims and prepare strategies. I think the Ro8 is going to involve a different level of mind games and pocket strats. I'm not even sure LGD has a stronger carry than Alliance either. Sylar has been the shining player in a disappointing team, whilst Loda has also been shining but in a team where it's harder to shine. Sylar may have more fantasy points or whatever, but he hasn't played any better than Loda has. (Don't worry people, I don't think Loda is a god or anything, I'm actually surprised how well and consistent he's been this tournament) Not that any of this is even relevant as come game day anything can happen.
They don't, but I don't think Sylar < Loda, while I think Xiao8 < S4, Yao < Bulldog, DD < EGM, and DDC < Akke.
IMO, a lot of the success of Na'Vi and Alliance comes from them having simply a greater amount of raw skill in each role, on average.
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United States47024 Posts
Yao < Bulldog is pretty questionable. I'd say both are stellar on their comfort heroes, and both have questionable results on things outside their main few picks, but Alliance's drafts have set up Bulldog to play what he wants more often, whereas Xiao8's been giving Yao some weird shit a bunch of the time.
On August 06 2013 23:37 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
For me, it was their best draft so far. Treaver+Timber+BH+CM have so much synergy it hurts.
The problem is that team is painfully lacking in disables and nuking power. Synergy is nice, but you have to have the basics.
The teamcomp's midgame fighting power prior to Timber's Bloodstone should not be able to withstand Tongfu's draft that game, it's just that Tongfu made some rather critical errors at important moments that allowed Alliance to not lose control of the game.
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@TheYango, Yao Razor will be force to be reckoned with to the time ACE comes, I believe.
And there is only one hero at which Bulldog is better than Yao: LD. They both underperform with Bat.
But Yao is consistent not only in 3rd position, but as a solomid and support, like all LGD guys, except Sylar.
This is all due to vastly inferior skills, right?
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On August 07 2013 03:04 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
@TheYango, Yao Razor will be force to reckon with to the time ACE comes, I believe.
And there is only one hero at which Bulldog is better than Yao: LD. They both underperform with Bat.
But Yao is consistent not only in 3rd position, but as a solomid and support, like all LGD guys, except Sylar. This is all due to vastly inferior skills, right, guys?
It's the chinese Training. Guess why Na´Vi only went 11-3 in groupstages. Shit pulling them down like there's no tomorrow.
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On August 07 2013 02:28 ForTehDarkseid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 01:37 Colston wrote:
Sylar has been the shining player in a disappointing team, whilst Loda has also been shining but in a team where it's harder to shine. That's bullshit, to be honest. Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 17:31 Azarkon wrote:
LGD is very stubborn when it comes to sticking to the same strategy and style, and Alliance has come out and said that they think this is a stupid way to play the game and that they're prepared to counter it with greater flexibility. The best shot LGD has is via a prepared pocket strat, but I've not been impressed by LGD's pocket strats in other tournaments. Ultimately, I just don't see what advantage LGD has over Alliance. What LGD is able to do, Alliance is also able to do, but it's not the case the other way around. In every role except for carry, Alliance has greater skill, and that alone ought to be enough to beat LGD Akke is more skilled than DD or DDC, Yao is less skilled than AB? How about you try to prove it and humilate yourself in process.
Yao is spectacular on no hero presently played in the off lane, while Bulldog is spectacular on, at the minimum, two - Furion and Lone Druid. In that position, Yao is the weaker player.
Yao's advantage is that he's able to play mid solo ie Magnus, Razor, and DK. Bulldog doesn't. However, because Xiao8 is ALSO a worse player than Bulldog in the offlane, there is simply no way for LGD to have a spectacular offlane player, and at the end of the day, S4 has greater flexibility than Yao in mid, thus resulting in the 4-1 advantage I gave Alliance.
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On August 07 2013 02:58 TheYango wrote:
Yao < Bulldog is pretty questionable. I'd say both are stellar on their comfort heroes, and both have questionable results on things outside their main few picks, but Alliance's drafts have set up Bulldog to play what he wants more often, whereas Xiao8's been giving Yao some weird shit a bunch of the time.
Bulldog simply out farms everyone on LGD but Sylar. Alliance is able to find farm for all their heroes while still keeping Loda in decent shape, while LGD plays 4 protect 1 and puts all the farm on Sylar, resulting in a lackluster late game in which they're up against 3-4 farmed heroes on the side of Alliance with only 1-2 farmed heroes on their own side.
Top Western teams this tournament have been doing this a lot in matches - out farming the Chinese, that is - due to greedy builds, ie Midas first, effective stacking, advantageous laning, and not playing 5 man Doto around the map.
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On August 07 2013 02:58 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 23:37 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
For me, it was their best draft so far. Treaver+Timber+BH+CM have so much synergy it hurts.
The problem is that team is painfully lacking in disables and nuking power. Synergy is nice, but you have to have the basics. The teamcomp's midgame fighting power prior to Timber's Bloodstone should not be able to withstand Tongfu's draft that game, it's just that Tongfu made some rather critical errors at important moments that allowed Alliance to not lose control of the game.
Well, I can't competely agree. Alliance have completely shutdowned Magnus at top, haven't lost mid to QoP, and got quick 6 level on BH at bottom. TF have nothing against this lineup early game. SD+Ench+QoP is quite an agressive trio, but [A] have all three cores with escape abilities and Tree on top of that. If [A]kke played Rubick instead of CM, this lineup would have prevailed over TF in midgame too, instead of somehow trading even. It only falls off in lategame, but, hey, you have BH to snowball out of every kill you got, it's not instant lose.
TLDR: The draft was not perfect, but is thoroughly thought out and wasn't a mistake. Personally I enjoyed this strat over everything else Alliance have shown us: EGM is best Tree at this TI3.
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On August 07 2013 03:15 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 02:28 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On August 07 2013 01:37 Colston wrote:
Sylar has been the shining player in a disappointing team, whilst Loda has also been shining but in a team where it's harder to shine. That's bullshit, to be honest. On August 06 2013 17:31 Azarkon wrote:
LGD is very stubborn when it comes to sticking to the same strategy and style, and Alliance has come out and said that they think this is a stupid way to play the game and that they're prepared to counter it with greater flexibility. The best shot LGD has is via a prepared pocket strat, but I've not been impressed by LGD's pocket strats in other tournaments. Ultimately, I just don't see what advantage LGD has over Alliance. What LGD is able to do, Alliance is also able to do, but it's not the case the other way around. In every role except for carry, Alliance has greater skill, and that alone ought to be enough to beat LGD Akke is more skilled than DD or DDC, Yao is less skilled than AB? How about you try to prove it and humilate yourself in process. Yao is spectacular on no hero presently played in the off lane.
I am smart enough to ask for PROOFS, not your OPINION, dude.
On August 07 2013 03:20 Azarkon wrote:
Bulldog simply out farms everyone on LGD but Sylar. Alliance is able to find farm for all their heroes while still keeping Loda in decent shape, while LGD plays 4 protect 1 and puts all the farm on Sylar, resulting in a lackluster late game in which they're up against 3-4 farmed heroes on the side of Alliance with only 1-2 farmed heroes on their own side.
When will you learn to get your facts straight? LGD played against Alliance 3 games. Only first game went late, where Alliance played 4 protect 1 against duo-core. Bulldog played on Clockwerk with no-means to outfarm anyone. Next game Bulldog played LD against BM, the matchup he is BOUND to outfarm the opponent.
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perform or go home time. gooo lanm
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Alliance has been dodging Na'Vi by losing on purpose 3x in a row in lesser tournaments, I so want to see the pocket strats they have ready just for them
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xiao8 draft is whats going to lose lgd the game. his draft as of late are just so 1 dimensional and bad, wouldve lost to dignitas and been in losers if dig didnt throw. just so sad. too bad they are still my favorite team cuz i like yao and sylar.
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On August 07 2013 03:35 ForTehDarkseid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 03:15 Azarkon wrote:On August 07 2013 02:28 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On August 07 2013 01:37 Colston wrote:
Sylar has been the shining player in a disappointing team, whilst Loda has also been shining but in a team where it's harder to shine. That's bullshit, to be honest. On August 06 2013 17:31 Azarkon wrote:
LGD is very stubborn when it comes to sticking to the same strategy and style, and Alliance has come out and said that they think this is a stupid way to play the game and that they're prepared to counter it with greater flexibility. The best shot LGD has is via a prepared pocket strat, but I've not been impressed by LGD's pocket strats in other tournaments. Ultimately, I just don't see what advantage LGD has over Alliance. What LGD is able to do, Alliance is also able to do, but it's not the case the other way around. In every role except for carry, Alliance has greater skill, and that alone ought to be enough to beat LGD Akke is more skilled than DD or DDC, Yao is less skilled than AB? How about you try to prove it and humilate yourself in process. Yao is spectacular on no hero presently played in the off lane. I am smart enough to ask for PROOFS, not your OPINION, dude.
I take back what I said about Yao being the position 3 player. From a cursory look at his results in TI 3, the bulk of the times he's the position 2 player for LGD in TI 3 even though he doesn't mid solo every time. It's Xiao8 that's in 3, so the list ought to be:
Loda = Sylar, S4 >= Yao, Bulldog > Xiao8, Akke & EGM > DD & DDC
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On August 07 2013 03:49 aintz wrote:
his draft as of late are just so 1 dimensional and bad
One hard carry == one dimension? Okay, bro, you got deeper knowledge in Dota than anyone here.
wouldve lost to dignitas and been in losers if dig didnt throw.
Early-game teamfight and push vs mid-game superior teamfight and antipush.
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its pointless to made these judgements. on thursday we will see who wins. last time however when they met in g1 lan alliance won handily but xiao8s draft was even more awful than it was at ti3. lets hope he was just trolling and draft proper heroes tmr.
i think alliance probably win though. either way i like both teams and who ever loses shouldnt have that hard a time in losers bracket.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 07 2013 03:20 Azarkon wrote:
Bulldog simply out farms everyone on LGD but Sylar. Alliance is able to find farm for all their heroes while still keeping Loda in decent shape
I'm hesitant to really say this because finding farm on everyone is a pretty natural product of winning games.
The only game of the tournament where Alliance really looked like they were losing was their game 1 vs. Tongfu, and in that game, their farm distribution was not really anything out of the ordinary.
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Azarkon's going strong.
On August 07 2013 04:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 03:20 Azarkon wrote:
Bulldog simply out farms everyone on LGD but Sylar. Alliance is able to find farm for all their heroes while still keeping Loda in decent shape I'm hesitant to really say this because finding farm on everyone is a pretty natural product of winning games. The only game of the tournament where Alliance really looked like they were losing was their game 1 vs. Tongfu, and in that game, their farm distribution was not really anything out of the ordinary.
Actually, iG was in a good position before the throw/finolpause happened.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 07 2013 03:54 Azarkon wrote:
Loda = Sylar, S4 >= Yao, Bulldog > Xiao8, Akke & EGM > DD & DDC
I would put s4 firmly ahead of Yao if this is how you're doing comparisons. Yao's shortcoming as a mid player has always been that he's somewhat passive, and has lackluster gank execution/sense, which means he provides fairly limited gank/countergank pressure on the sidelanes. This is exemplified by his most comfortable mid hero of TI2 being Invoker, who typically tends to stay on lane for a very long time.
S4 definitely strikes me as by far the most improved DotA player of the past year. The rate at which he developed into a world-class solo mid player in all aspects is just amazing.
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EPT
