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On April 08 2014 01:39 DavoS wrote:
C9 can't draft a 4 protect 1 ever. Envy isn't skilled enough/makes too many bad decisions to carry the team on his own
Aui himself has said that Envy has matches where he's the MVP/makes little to no mistakes. The problem is that this draft just didn't work.
I don't see people bitching about Envy when he's running around on Luna doing dem Luna things and end up winning.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On April 08 2014 01:41 Noya wrote:
4pArteezy isn't outdated tho
Except that 4pArteezy actually has a decent/good 2nd core. Especially now, with mason having a hero pool that has a size of what? 3 heroes?
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On April 08 2014 01:38 hariooo wrote:
luckily for c9 top 6 of 8 makes it out of group stage and liquid is guaranteed last already.
can't see them being in the right mindset to threaten navi with these kinds of losses to EG
They are a different team when they play alliance, Na'vi and empire. They draft a lineup they are comfortable with, they coordinate and they lane the game smartly.
Vs Liquid and EG they are try to get creative/weird drafts. They force really dumb lanes and bad picks. And then they play bad.
Honestly, I'm STILL not impressed by EG overall. They seem to be just like sigma, a team that has a new style, that is the Artz +4 style. Once teams learn how to beat that and they become much weaker team. C9 isn't a good metric imo, because C9 just plays bad dota versus EG and Liquid. Seriously, Forcing the shadow shaman pick with a naga ? he's a weak hero as a farmer unless you have the right draft with him.
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EG beating down C9 even harder than TL.
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On April 08 2014 01:41 wuhan_clan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 01:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Well, this is pretty embarrassing. I really want to see how scary they get once Fear is back in action. Pretty sure Fear is gonna come back right before Starladder Finals and we'll see how good they really are. Starladder is basically a TI4 preview.
He said he was starting to play on the 10th
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On April 08 2014 01:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Well, this is pretty embarrassing. I really want to see how scary they get once Fear is back in action. And if Fear sucks? They just put him in Coach position and run Mason.
Pfff, just kidding. Fear is exactly what they need to get to a ridiculous level.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On April 08 2014 01:43 Ravensong170 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 01:38 hariooo wrote:
luckily for c9 top 6 of 8 makes it out of group stage and liquid is guaranteed last already.
can't see them being in the right mindset to threaten navi with these kinds of losses to EG They are a different team when they play alliance, Na'vi and empire. They draft a lineup they are comfortable with, they coordinate and they lane the game smartly. Vs Liquid and EG they are try to get creative/weird drafts. They force really dumb lanes and bad picks. And then they play bad. Honestly, I'm STILL not impressed by EG overall. They seem to be just like sigma, a team that has a new style, that is the Artz +4 style. Once teams learn how to beat that and they become much weaker team. C9 isn't a good metric imo, because C9 just plays bad dota versus EG and Liquid. Seriously, Forcing the shadow shaman pick with a naga ? he's a weak hero as a farmer unless you have the right draft with him.
C9 probably scrims with Liquid and/or EG way too much, hence the crappy mindgames. Watching some team kills in SC2's tourneys feels worse.
Also, EG's style is draft something clever and proceed to bait enemy in the trap. Granted, it did fail against Fnatic when n0tail got wisp, yet it was rather clever with relocate baits there.
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On April 08 2014 01:43 lolfail9001 wrote:Except that 4pArteezy actually has a decent/good 2nd core. Especially now, with mason having a hero pool that has a size of what? 3 heroes?
Mason literally just played core dazzle and a bloodseeker in yesterdays matches. The criticism of him having a small hero pool is stupid.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On April 08 2014 01:46 blobrus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 01:43 lolfail9001 wrote:On April 08 2014 01:41 Noya wrote:
4pArteezy isn't outdated tho Except that 4pArteezy actually has a decent/good 2nd core. Especially now, with mason having a hero pool that has a size of what? 3 heroes? Mason literally just played core dazzle and a bloodseeker in yesterdays matches. The criticism of him having a small hero pool is stupid.
1 match of each versus what? 10+ matches of mirana and/or weaver? He does get unconventional 1s sometimes, but his venge certainly did not impress me at all.
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On April 08 2014 01:46 blobrus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 01:43 lolfail9001 wrote:On April 08 2014 01:41 Noya wrote:
4pArteezy isn't outdated tho Except that 4pArteezy actually has a decent/good 2nd core. Especially now, with mason having a hero pool that has a size of what? 3 heroes? Mason literally just played core dazzle and a bloodseeker in yesterdays matches. The criticism of him having a small hero pool is stupid.
Agreed. He plays heros that are very much in the same grain, but he can play a wide array heroes. All the do shit heros. He's not really a farming 1, more of a do shit one. Almost like a role reversal of the traditional 1 and 2 with this iteration of EG.
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On April 08 2014 01:46 blobrus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 01:43 lolfail9001 wrote:On April 08 2014 01:41 Noya wrote:
4pArteezy isn't outdated tho Except that 4pArteezy actually has a decent/good 2nd core. Especially now, with mason having a hero pool that has a size of what? 3 heroes? Mason literally just played core dazzle and a bloodseeker in yesterdays matches. The criticism of him having a small hero pool is stupid.
To be fair his bloodseeker didn't do very much, but I'm pretty sure that pick was for the sole purpose of crushing TL's morale. We give so few fucks about you we'll take one of the worst heroes in DotA and still win.
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On April 08 2014 01:47 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 01:46 blobrus wrote:On April 08 2014 01:43 lolfail9001 wrote:On April 08 2014 01:41 Noya wrote:
4pArteezy isn't outdated tho Except that 4pArteezy actually has a decent/good 2nd core. Especially now, with mason having a hero pool that has a size of what? 3 heroes? Mason literally just played core dazzle and a bloodseeker in yesterdays matches. The criticism of him having a small hero pool is stupid. 1 match of each versus what? 10+ matches of mirana and/or weaver? He does get unconventional 1s sometimes, but his venge certainly did not impress me at all.
Teams can't fit in bans for mason because of how many bans they use on universe/arteezy heroes. Why wouldn't he stick with heroes that they keep winning games with?
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On April 08 2014 01:38 Ravensong170 wrote:
C9 seems to play and draft much worse than they usually do versus Liquid and EG. I really don't understand why they do. They try all these mindgames but seriously play stupid.
C9 scrims mostly against EG, so either:
- their usual stuff doesn't work against them anymore and they try something else
- they are drafting themselves in a corner trying to be clever
On April 08 2014 01:47 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 01:46 blobrus wrote:On April 08 2014 01:43 lolfail9001 wrote:On April 08 2014 01:41 Noya wrote:
4pArteezy isn't outdated tho Except that 4pArteezy actually has a decent/good 2nd core. Especially now, with mason having a hero pool that has a size of what? 3 heroes? Mason literally just played core dazzle and a bloodseeker in yesterdays matches. The criticism of him having a small hero pool is stupid. 1 match of each versus what? 10+ matches of mirana and/or weaver? He does get unconventional 1s sometimes, but his venge certainly did not impress me at all.
His storm and puck are pretty fucking good too, and so is his invoker
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On April 08 2014 01:43 ymir233 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 01:39 DavoS wrote:
C9 can't draft a 4 protect 1 ever. Envy isn't skilled enough/makes too many bad decisions to carry the team on his own Aui himself has said that Envy has matches where he's the MVP/makes little to no mistakes. The problem is that this draft just didn't work. I don't see people bitching about Envy when he's running around on Luna doing dem Luna things and end up winning.
Envy's Luna and Gyro are both really strong for sure, but most other heroes he gets caught out too often or makes bad decisions.
But C9 also tries a lot of new strategies in group stages, so a lot of their losses are because they're being smart about trying to broaden their possibilities before lan season starts. But hopefully they realize 4 protect Envy is not a good plan
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On April 08 2014 01:45 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 01:43 Ravensong170 wrote:On April 08 2014 01:38 hariooo wrote:
luckily for c9 top 6 of 8 makes it out of group stage and liquid is guaranteed last already.
can't see them being in the right mindset to threaten navi with these kinds of losses to EG They are a different team when they play alliance, Na'vi and empire. They draft a lineup they are comfortable with, they coordinate and they lane the game smartly. Vs Liquid and EG they are try to get creative/weird drafts. They force really dumb lanes and bad picks. And then they play bad. Honestly, I'm STILL not impressed by EG overall. They seem to be just like sigma, a team that has a new style, that is the Artz +4 style. Once teams learn how to beat that and they become much weaker team. C9 isn't a good metric imo, because C9 just plays bad dota versus EG and Liquid. Seriously, Forcing the shadow shaman pick with a naga ? he's a weak hero as a farmer unless you have the right draft with him. C9 probably scrims with Liquid and/or EG way too much, hence the crappy mindgames. Watching some team kills in SC2's tourneys feels worse. Also, EG's style is draft something clever and proceed to bait enemy in the trap. Granted, it did fail against Fnatic when n0tail got wisp, yet it was rather clever with relocate baits there.
They scrim with EG a lot, supposedly. But yea EG doesn't try to mindgame whereas C9 overthink everything. At Monster SxSW invite, the games they won, were won through comfortable lanes and draft. I mean Drafting Dark Seer is fine and all, but they have no damage behind him.... a SS aa and CM are way to weak to have in the same lineup. Puck would've been a good hero for sing in that lineup. (though i'm not sure if it was banned or not)
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I think RTZ just knows C9 too well, having played with them for so long. The few heroes that he has that overlap with Envy are in his favour too, like Tinker/Naga/etc. Envy probably plays a better traditional safe lane 1 position but RTZ really has the advantage over him mid lane. I believe they used to practice 1v1's a lot? At least I remember hearing Envy talk about how he knew RTZ was godlike mid because they played those mid matchups a bunch.
But yeah, a Naga first pick completely reveals C9's game plan. RTZ is gonna know exactly how Envy will want to play her and reintroducing the OD which he hasn't played since last patch was a pretty brilliant choice.
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On April 08 2014 01:41 wuhan_clan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 01:39 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Well, this is pretty embarrassing. I really want to see how scary they get once Fear is back in action. Pretty sure Fear is gonna come back right before Starladder Finals and we'll see how good they really are. Starladder is basically a TI4 preview.
Starladder won't have a bunch of eastern teams that are likely gonna be in the 4-8th range for TI4
and missing Alliance lol
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I actually don't know how the hell c9 was going to survive with their draft.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On April 08 2014 01:48 blobrus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 01:47 lolfail9001 wrote:On April 08 2014 01:46 blobrus wrote:On April 08 2014 01:43 lolfail9001 wrote:On April 08 2014 01:41 Noya wrote:
4pArteezy isn't outdated tho Except that 4pArteezy actually has a decent/good 2nd core. Especially now, with mason having a hero pool that has a size of what? 3 heroes? Mason literally just played core dazzle and a bloodseeker in yesterdays matches. The criticism of him having a small hero pool is stupid. 1 match of each versus what? 10+ matches of mirana and/or weaver? He does get unconventional 1s sometimes, but his venge certainly did not impress me at all. Teams can't fit in bans for mason because of how many bans they use on universe/arteezy heroes. Why wouldn't he stick with heroes that they keep winning games with?
No reason not to, yet my original reference was about mason having a hero pool of rather few heroes, all of which he plays more like farming ones, rather than utility ones, so saying that EG runs 4pRTZ is plain wrong, their line-ups atm are at worst 4pRTZ when mason gets someone like venge/dazzle and most of time are duo-cores.
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On April 08 2014 01:47 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 01:46 blobrus wrote:On April 08 2014 01:43 lolfail9001 wrote:On April 08 2014 01:41 Noya wrote:
4pArteezy isn't outdated tho Except that 4pArteezy actually has a decent/good 2nd core. Especially now, with mason having a hero pool that has a size of what? 3 heroes? Mason literally just played core dazzle and a bloodseeker in yesterdays matches. The criticism of him having a small hero pool is stupid. To be fair his bloodseeker didn't do very much, but I'm pretty sure that pick was for the sole purpose of crushing TL's morale. We give so few fucks about you we'll take one of the worst heroes in DotA and still win.
His Dazzle didn't matter and neither did his Mirana this game.
EG could have just about anyone stand in for 5th against TL and C9 right now. Whatever psychological advantage they have right now is real.
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EPT
