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https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3011146267
So I am Jugg, I think this is an ez win for me. Offlane AM with a slark who gets 28 LH at 10 min. I farm pretty well in lane and deny the AM farm as much as possible. I know this meta revolves around early tempo, taking T1s and maybe T2, roshan, and attempting to end the game. I try to convince my team to do that because I think my mid SF did pretty well and have the ability to end.
My question is, since its a common belief at my poop MMR that you can carry ANY game if you are a good enough player. What specifically do I do in these kinds of situations. What I mean is, every time we 5 man push, a split pushing carry pushes T2/T3 tower and one of my team mates goes back to defend despite my plea to 5 man push T2/3. It weakens our team fight, they normally die solo to said carry and we lose HG fight or get forced back. Do I just buy BoTs and start split pushing myself?
Also slark is cancer on the map in mid game. I told my supports just to just push with us so they aren't food to slark making him stronger. We take a bad fight at the end of the game and they 5 man push and end with AM having farm. When we shit on him laning phase.
I am genuinely trying to improve my play and find out what exactly my response is at this mmr when the team does not know how to capitalize on an advantage and end the game. Any constructive critiques on my play would be amazing from a player 4k or higher.
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I am 5.1k
i watched it.
laning:
You positioned yourself behind the creep wave in a tri lane. You want to be playing up and aggressively, because you have 2 supports and can easily kill either hero, plus you want to keep them away from the wave as much as possible. Play up, trade hits on the AM/sky, aggressive play will turn in to mistakes and opportunities.
dont use spin if he hasnt blinked
you should have had their offlane tower down by 8-10 min at the latest. their lane has no depush and is very prone to dying under tower. their team depends on towers (slark/am) for vision and movement, easiest way to win this game is to take early objectives. Your DS was feeding and the added pressure top could have made his life easier. Don't forget the impact pushing has on the map it's generally undervalued.
game decisions stuff:
15 mins uve got all their t1s but then ur team stops and does nothing despite there being 0 resistance and no slark shadowblade to worry about. just start running down a lane and ur team will follow.
suddenly slark gets shadowblade and ur supports start feeding
when you are playing in a low teir game you have to recognize the threats like slark and figure out the best way to deal with them. the best way in this game was to take every t2 before 15 mins, strangle the slark and give ur supports tons of gold to get anti slark items / wards
you are the carry, you just go places and your team will follow. you have a kotl that can even force team mates to come to you. you also are pretty immune to most ganks anyway.
30 mins u get their rax but die because you didn't spin and hit rax, you spinned and wasted about 5 seconds. that wouldve been enough time to run away / safely tp. 1 rax is pretty meaningless in this kind of game.
you are about 1.5 items behind where you need to be @ 30-35 mins. needed abyssal and probably blink
and @ the end you ran in to a really bad fight with no chance of winning, slark already had 15+ stacks and you were down 2 important heroes. i understand you were frustrated but u and sf are the 2 heroes that cannot feed or the game ends
tbh you weren't the best player in the game despite ur frustrations. slark figured out what he needed to do to win and did it depsite making a ton of mistakes. 5 kills in a 40 min game isn't impact enough in that teir, you'd be 10-15k networth above if you found ways to get kills. it all starts with laning, then objective decisions, then teamfight decisions, then items and keeping farm up.
hope that helps dont mean to sound harsh
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Honestly thanks a lot man... I posted this on Dotabuff and got a bunch of stupid responses. I don't think you are too harsh you hit the nail on the head. If you don't mind, could you give me some advice on what to do if your team mates do not group and take objectives early?
I was thinking maybe get BoTs and just split push the hell out of them and force the enemy team to be uncoordinated if my team doesn't want to push.
Do you have any advice on my farming patterns? My efficiency in the mid game? I try to farm as best I could but maybe split pushing more will increase GPM.
At this MMR how would you achieve the 10-15k net worth lead if you run down lanes and you don't have a team behind you?
I was thinking about experimenting more with going HoTD into BoTs and maybe linkens. What are your thoughts on this?
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On February 22 2017 05:00 Usmc0302 wrote:
Honestly thanks a lot man... I posted this on Dotabuff and got a bunch of stupid responses. I don't think you are too harsh you hit the nail on the head. If you don't mind, could you give me some advice on what to do if your team mates do not group and take objectives early?
I was thinking maybe get BoTs and just split push the hell out of them and force the enemy team to be uncoordinated if my team doesn't want to push.
Do you have any advice on my farming patterns? My efficiency in the mid game? I try to farm as best I could but maybe split pushing more will increase GPM.
At this MMR how would you achieve the 10-15k net worth lead if you run down lanes and you don't have a team behind you?
I was thinking about experimenting more with going HoTD into BoTs and maybe linkens. What are your thoughts on this?
I think communication goes a long way. You can say things like, "we're against slark/am so lets take all their towers early, then you'll have tons of gold, etc" and just try to stay positive. Your team seemed somewhat together when it came to pushing, just everyone split off too quickly. "Lets keep going, they can't fight us" goes a long way, too. Or communicating that one person can go back to deal with a lane, and kotl can bring them back in a wave.
Split push would have worked well later in this game but still, with SF/kotl/DS/jug you want to push there's no way around that. I think phase or treads is better when ur team is stronger, and blink would have given you split push safety if you wanted to go that route.
I wouldn't worry about farming patterns. You needed a bit more GPM but you wouldve gotten it from towers and kills, which come from forcing fights at towers.
your ideal setup is phase or treads, manta, diffusal or mael, abyssal, blink around 30 mins. you get the blink as needed when split pushing vs team fighting.
in general just build items to get kills when it matters, ie blink abyssal is game winning
edit: also emphasize rosh way earlier with ur lineup
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Thank you for taking the time and providing quality feedback. I really appreciate it. As much as I love this game I hate it sometimes too because improving is very difficult, but it is rewarding when you do.
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a lot of players don't give dota 2 enough credit for being a very strategic game, where nearly everything you do matters, and timing is everything.
you gotta give something up (farm at times) to do the right thing, and everyone will learn to play better as the game goes (so long as tilting is not a thing). that is why positivity and direction is good for pubs imo.
as a carry it is your privilege to be playing your role, and a lot of your fate is actually up to you as well.
like ahw says, a lot of it starts when the creeps first meet and how you handle the early levels.
if their offlane starts poorly for instance, they won't show up to lane, or they will gradually start to feed.
try to think of this one game simply. if your kotl gets and aghs, and then a gem shortly afterwards, highground at 20-25m is pretty trivial and they're in a do-or-lose-rax situation while they're weak.
24m or 32m would be the start of day and your push may last up to 4m from those times. earlier if your KotL has the farm for it. because your kotl is skipping items like mek, he can do it after the first round of warding.
he may jungle after the trilane works spectacularly, lion may roam earlier under that same circumstance, you may jungle efficiently when heroes are off the map or you're missing a ward (at their offlane tower for instance) to ensure your safety.
often the move for a safelane after taking the tower is to TP to their safelane/mid to take those towers and snowball those lanes as well. in your case, you have the opportunity to farm their jungle when KotL is farming yours.
with that in mind, all you have to do in a push like this is to bring wards to the push, sent behind/ontop yourself so you can deal with the slark, and ideally ask someone to focus on getting a pipe. someone like lion, DS. make sure they're something of a priority when they suffered through laning, farm out their jungle after an easy and successful push, use the wards you brought to the push to ward out their jungle and starve them out some more.
this is where the early blink on jugg comes into play. you and lion or really anyone can just walk up to someone farming jungle and erase them.
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additonal points
-slark is forced to build bkb 2nd/3rd item when he can't afford it without jungling heavily and letting towers fall. if you find and kill him once during this transition, he will pretty much never be able to fight without dying.
-AM is in recovery mode because his lane didn't work. same deal, except that it is an even weaker hero for fighting.
really, invoker's first round of spells and the nukes from their supports are the only things that could stop your push, but only when they use their CD's the first time.
-your team has some mana issues unless they're using it efficiently or fresh off respawn, so one good push to a T2 is about all you can afford at a time, which is perfectly fine since your team can be quite cooldown dependant earlier on.
-they have to walk into you with those heroes to kill your ward. so you just push the ward behind yourself while you spin-hit their t3's. if they walk up, DS initiates, they get wiped, sometimes without even casting their spells. if slark and AM go in, you back up from rax and drop their HP, DS initiates all the same.
-with pipe and hotd, your team has additional 14hp regen. spells pretty much don't do lasting damage unless they blow them all at once. i would say it's the perfect highground item this game.
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Enemy team has 0 depush, even with their spells, you should be able to auto attack to shove creep wave, have healing ward active, spin, hit tower and back as spin is ending.
As other people mentioned, a blink to blink, omnislash and kill the supports would of been useful. Combined with an abyssal later to kill the invoker.
This game boils down to, didn't push your early advantage and abuse your better early tempo. As the carry and the strongest hero early on the map, you had to make your team take advantage of that and be the aggressor.
I understand it can be tough to get your team to group and push, but that is what lost you the game, not pushing. Be as positive as possible, make sure they know, "we push, i am pushing mid" or "their cooldowns are down, push while they are weak." Just be as positive as possible and work on your early game.
The skywrath and ore the am should of died on that offlane. With the disables you had, they should of died.
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I'm going to look only at the first 5 minutes.
Look for opportunities to be more active in your laning.
Let's start at 1:17 just after you kill a creep
You're left with 2 creeps vs 2 creeps and their creeps have full hp while AM is hitting lion nearby.
You choose to hard deny your own creep here and last hit their melee creep at 1:29.
You had 12 seconds here to do something aggressive for free while missing zero cs.
Now KOTL has pulled after you hard denied which means you're going to be tanking creeps under the tower.
Hard denying made you miss the range creep that was still full hp when the next creepwave came.
You could've eaten a tango immediately knowing that you're going to be taking damage.
Instead you start your tango at 2:02. That's 33 seconds, or 2 full tangos worth of time late.
You're down 263 hp, 2 tangos would've healed you for 230 hp.
There is a clear kill opportunity on AM here, lion decided he also doesn't like being at high hp and didn't eat his tango.
This makes him scared to fully commit to this kill but you can't control him. Lion splits his disables between the two heroes which is unfortunate and you don't come at all. AM also barely gets level 2 which would've made this kill harder (he wouldn't be level 2 and probably would've had less hp if you used the earlier 12 second window to hit him)
The next time you make a go on AM he is right under his tower, there is no chance to kill him and you miss 2 of 3 creeps entirely by going for it as well as wasting your mana.
This attempt and the next one, you have boots and he doesn't, he's mana leaked. as well. You run up and immediately spin at which point he immediately blinks, you managed to do 33 damage to AM for 110 mana with bladefury.
Instead run up and hit him force him to run or blink, then run after him and bladefury while his blink is on cooldown.
4:12 the last ranged creep dies there is a big wave going under AM's tower, unfortunate but even made even worse by you doing nothing of value until 4:39. Your supports pulled into the hard camp, go over there and kill some jungle creeps in this 27 seconds of downtime.
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EPT
