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So, I've been grinding out some games thanks to the battlepass and I was wondering how people feel about the game flow of the patch and heroes. Keep in mind this is around 4k ranked/unranked solo, so if you play with 5stack your experience might be different. My problems boil down to these issues:
1) Rax seem to matter less than ever. 1 lane by 35 minutes is mostly nothing, especially if you still have shrines up. Stash gives everybody a TP scroll, sustain is easy to come by for any hero who wants to farm. Until you get mega'd, the game really isn't over and with the way creep bounty and runes scale, catching up in the lategame is very much possible.
2) Shrines in the base are really punishing for the attacker. Basically, any kind of dive is met with what is essentially fountain regen. This usually leads to teams trying to cheese their way in, giving rise to long range carries, illusion spam or risking most of their advantage to progress the game. Since creep bounty keeps going up, once the team leaves and you have a lane to farm up, it's a lot less punishing to sit in your base.
3) Aegis feels weaker later thanks to stash & shrines. Carries can always have TP, boots and the sixth item somewhere, however they will be against somebody who is fully kitted out (assuming even game). If you use it to go for rax, thanks to shrines the defenders have time to heal by the time you ressurect.
There are essentially 2 types of games for me: Either one side pushes and contests high ground by 20-30 minutes, where, if successful, the game is over. Or you have 50 min+ nailbiting games where you are 1 teamfight (2 if you have buyback) away from losing, no matter the game state. Supports have easier time juggling all the items thanks to the stash, but it feels like I have less impact than in 6.88 when it comes to late game, which is quite frustrating.
So, yeah, what are your thoughts ?
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from my experience in this patch going down a lane of rax isn't quite as bad as before. Mostly due to teams willing to throw their advantage trying to take a 2nd and then you gain a bit of map control back with it lol. Shrines definitely play a large part in that as players just try to fight through the heal and die xD. I'd say I've enjoyed my games on 7.01 in general though.
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ban or pick pudge
i also agree with everything you typed
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Honestly my impression is still that midgame teamfight+push wins you games. Most high mmr high winrate heroes are snowbally skirmish/teamfight heroes that can push hg fairly easily (ember luna lycan necro are the top farmers atm in 5k+), hell even enigma is suddenly a top winrate hero again.
Btw if anything i find sup play stronger, now that a single good fight in lategame can turn the game. Hell if the game goes long enough sup talents are often extremely strong.
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I think there are two things:
1)Shrines are extremely durable, they have 20 armor, so unless your team is dead, nobody bothers to kill them in your base, so they effectively serve as a buffer for creep waves while you move around on the map.
2)The extra levels give you extra stats, so even without the old stat bonus, the heroes are flat out stronger, not to mention there's plenty of bonuses which you had to itemize for before, but now you get them as talents. Spell amplification is big in making lategame spells viable vs megacreeps.
Winning a teamfight is good and all, but unless you have a decisive advantage, if the other side has cooldowns and shrines up, even 5v3 might not be such a slamdunk, especially if they delay you and somebody respawns, which is easy to forget about in the heat of battle.
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I dont feel the same, the advantaged team at 15minutes manages to take down a couple of t1s and that snowballs into deathballing all other objectives while controlling the map. And subsequently winning at around 30-40 minutes after a rosh or two. Shrines in base doesnt matter to much unless the attacking team actually dives to far.
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On January 31 2017 18:27 Zaphid wrote:I think there are two things: 1)Shrines are extremely durable, they have 20 armor, so unless your team is dead, nobody bothers to kill them in your base, so they effectively serve as a buffer for creep waves while you move around on the map. 2)The extra levels give you extra stats, so even without the old stat bonus, the heroes are flat out stronger, not to mention there's plenty of bonuses which you had to itemize for before, but now you get them as talents. Spell amplification is big in making lategame spells viable vs megacreeps. Winning a teamfight is good and all, but unless you have a decisive advantage, if the other side has cooldowns and shrines up, even 5v3 might not be such a slamdunk, especially if they delay you and somebody respawns, which is easy to forget about in the heat of battle.
Yeah I suspect the talents are the big thing. I was in the 3rd game (as the kotl) and at level 25 with the increased illuminate damage/heal I could hold 2 lanes of megas by myself while the rest of the team pushed up mid. The shrine buffer also helps because it makes it harder for the enemy team to rush your throne, since the creeps won't be helping them. (Of course, both of these things take for granted that your team is strong enough to win teamfights)
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I feel you.
I had a couple games like that.
One game went to 90min+ even after raxing at 30min and dominating the map. We had, I believe, 5 roshans, and all those pushes were for nothing.
In the end we had to all buy necronomicons and throw bodies at it until megas, then we had at least a couple fights with megas advantage until we could overrun then.
Frustrating!
And it seems that after 25min raxes are superfluous, and after 50 or 60min even megas are very weak and easy to deal with.
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Well, they made highground even harder to pull off this patch - 5 shrines in the base with a really high regen rate is pretty ridiculous. Some of it has just to do with what heroes are popular. LD, sniper, ember, pudge makes it really hard to break the base, so if those heroes are adjusted then you'll see some of the problem alleviated.
Also, getting map control is a little less rewarding, as there is a little less gold as camps only respawn every 2 mins, so getting that needed advantage to push up the base is harder.
but yeah i hate those 5 shrines
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I wonder if the shrines themselves could use some adjusting, since they have double the armor of barracks, which makes them very difficult to attack and their position is perfect for defense. If there were only 2-3 and placed closer to the base edge, you could kill them from the outside, if you had the vision and right heroes.
As you have mentioned, map control pays off less, so even long term siege isn't very viable. If I want to win, I'm looking at heroes that scale well into lategame teamfights, since those are all that matter.
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On January 31 2017 18:27 Zaphid wrote:I think there are two things: 1)Shrines are extremely durable, they have 20 armor, so unless your team is dead, nobody bothers to kill them in your base, so they effectively serve as a buffer for creep waves while you move around on the map. 2)The extra levels give you extra stats, so even without the old stat bonus, the heroes are flat out stronger, not to mention there's plenty of bonuses which you had to itemize for before, but now you get them as talents. Spell amplification is big in making lategame spells viable vs megacreeps. Winning a teamfight is good and all, but unless you have a decisive advantage, if the other side has cooldowns and shrines up, even 5v3 might not be such a slamdunk, especially if they delay you and somebody respawns, which is easy to forget about in the heat of battle.
What extra levels are you talking about?
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On February 02 2017 05:03 Akara12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2017 18:27 Zaphid wrote:I think there are two things: 1)Shrines are extremely durable, they have 20 armor, so unless your team is dead, nobody bothers to kill them in your base, so they effectively serve as a buffer for creep waves while you move around on the map. 2)The extra levels give you extra stats, so even without the old stat bonus, the heroes are flat out stronger, not to mention there's plenty of bonuses which you had to itemize for before, but now you get them as talents. Spell amplification is big in making lategame spells viable vs megacreeps. Winning a teamfight is good and all, but unless you have a decisive advantage, if the other side has cooldowns and shrines up, even 5v3 might not be such a slamdunk, especially if they delay you and somebody respawns, which is easy to forget about in the heat of battle. What extra levels are you talking about?
I'm sure he means the talents, though tbh that is more hero-situational than anything. There are times i'd rather have my stat level up and my hero would be stronger with +stats then the talents.
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I believe he means because you level up faster you get additional stats from those levels. So even though you can't just skill stats anymore you actually end up stronger. plus not THAT many heroes skilled stats over their spells anyway.
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My 2 cents:
- Too many shrines and too many bounties are dragging the game long. I saw some very high mmr games from streams where good players clump up and roll around 20 ish minute or so, before the enemy organizes. But my experience is, game length is increased about 10+ minutes comparing 6xx patches. My approach would be, leave only 2 shrines at high ground very close to the ancient. Remove offlane bounties.
- Long range cancer should stop. Revamp dragon lance and give it something other than best stats and insane range.
- I like having a teamfight oriented game but current meta in pubs dominated by good late game heroes. There are too many sources of income to come back. Pro games are a little bit different it seems because pros make less mistakes.
- Worse part about late game is, it is a coinflip. Since everyone can get farm and items in a dragged game, regardless of what happened in early and mid(dead) game, the chance of winning a game boils down to %50. This is subjective but annoys me.
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Games are dragging more often for sure, I've had several 70+ minute games recently. Just yesterday it took 3 roshes and multiple buybacks to finally get megas, and we had a nicely fed slark and a refresher-aghs-bkb enigma with blink who too the 2 last aegises (and me on ember splitpushing constantly) :/ On the other hand, I've had more comeback games I feel, tho some games are still lost in the laning phase.
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i do not play for long games or rather i try to force them to be shorter because i don't believe in not being able to do a good push with a teamfight advantage. i'd much rather lose by overreaching and learn that way rather than playing safe and reliably to everyone's strengths as a player for +30 minutes, which may or may not lead to any real learning.
i'm not saying to depend on players playing poorly all of a sudden, or luck regarding that.
people are bound to make forced or unforced mistakes, so you can just jump on the bigger ones.
so i don't think there's much to do with the new patch, even as big as 600hp/200mp, and support talents are.
if you're faced against a sniper or a tinker early, also anticipating that it'll get harder for you as the game gets longer, it's not impossible to deal with those heroes early. that's also a part of learning, especially as a support.
it's unfortunate, but i don't think you will ever take away defender's advantages by passively progressing the game.
like in starcraft many players prefer to take the "macro" route, just reacting to the scouting they see and making units to win against that, as opposed to harassing using a strong build order that will ensure an advantage that you're specifically looking to exploit.
there's nothing preventing you from getting to a point where you can both harass effectively and macro at the same time,
or in dota making difficult kills happen with your heroes to open up the rest of the map by extension.
the kills you find difficult to make will typically become even more difficult as players get more items at the same pacing.
i will just quote some good old sun tzu, lol. "Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
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On February 02 2017 05:21 OmniEulogy wrote:
I believe he means because you level up faster you get additional stats from those levels. So even though you can't just skill stats anymore you actually end up stronger. plus not THAT many heroes skilled stats over their spells anyway.
Exactly, hitting level cap in 6.xx as a support was almost impossible, especially without midas. In 7.xx it is almost inevitable before 50-60 minutes provided you don't die first in every teamfight.
Basically all the changes make me question viability of contesting high ground even with number advantage. 5v5 at the high ground is straight up attempt to throw, uness you sit on aegis/20k+ and bkb advantage. 4v5 feels really risky, 3v5 feels somewhat secure for contesting T3/rax. What it also emphasizes is burst damage and positioning - if the enemy doesn't have time to use shrines, they become worthless, so I feel heroes like Lina and Lion might be stronger than their talents and changes suggest.
What I'm getting at is that the amount of downtime in the midgame where one side needs an aegis and gank or two before progressing the game further has increased, which imo hurts the flow.
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EPT
