|
Echo sabre is a midgame item for melee cores. It's a popular pub item for popular pub heroes such as Slark, Sven and Riki.
While its stats come cost effectively due to the lack of a recipe, they have little synergy with each other. Mana regen doesn't do much to support the right click stats, and the extra HP is a nice bonus but isn't enough to buy much extra right-click time. Strength cores do get some bonus damage to go with their extra attacks, but not enough to justify paying for Int. Furthermore, the proc only works out to about 20-25 extra attack speed when constantly right-clicking.
While some melee cores do want all the stats individually, Echo sabre only shines when the active's used for more than just a flat attack speed bonus. And there are several concepts for doing so.
On November 21 2016 18:05 TriCkster135 wrote:
Echo sabre is best on heros that need some extra burst for their combo or have extremly high attack damage:
Tiny->ava/toss
Slark->pounce/dark
Sven->blink/stun/double attack
Lifestealer->infest damage
Concept 1: Three hit combo
The Sabre holder jumps on someone and lands a single right click. The echo sabre causes an immediate second hit and its slow allows them to land a third. They should have built enough damage that after the third hit (and whatever spell burst they have) the target should be dead. The sabre holder then disengages until their sabre and spells come off cooldown. Examples: Tiny, Sven
In this sort of engagement, the echo sabre effectively increases their total attack speed 50%.
Concept 2: Six second engagement
The Sabre holder locks onto a target just long enough to trigger Echo Sabre twice, killing them shortly after the second proc. Examples: Slark, anyone with a fully depleted BKB.
In this sort of engagement, the echo sabre effectively gives twice as much attack speed as normal.
Concept 3: Early hits are better than late ones
Some characters benefit from moving the bonus attack earlier in a right click combo. For example, Slark, Bloodseeker and Abaddon all gain extra DPS for attacking an enemy they've already damaged, and Riki wants to attack as many times as he can in the second or two before the enemy turns around.
Concept 4: Four-second time out
Echo Sabre's ability is especially beneficial when alternating between right-clicks and something else. Anyone can take advantage of this while chasing, attacking only when the slow lets them do so without falling behind. But a few heroes can be more proactive about forcing a time-out; in particular, Juggernaut can double slash someone and spin or omnislash; the Sabre will be off cooldown or close to it afterwards and he can use it to finish the kill.
Footnote: Farming
The best echo saber carriers often put the mana regen to use by flash-farming - most notably Slark and Tiny.
------
Forking this discussion from the Faceless Void thread. One of the side goals of this thread is to collect information for the sadly empty Liquipedia article.
|
When I play bloodseeker I find it effective to go phase-shadowblade-echosaber-abyssal. The items all work well together - phase/shadowblade/echo is a lot of damage as you break invis plus you sometimes get lucky with the bash right away. Also, BS is dumb as fuck and so the int and mana regen from echo really keeps you on the map.
I like the shadowblade/echo combo on spirit breaker for basically the same reasons.
I also think echo is notable on CK. With treads/armlet/echo you can erase people during ult really easily. I find those items plus wand/raindrops/TP is more than enough fighting items to allow you to push for bigger items like heart/abyssal.
|
Chaos Knight uses it to engage around his 6 second Rift cooldown?
|
It's also valuable on CK because it's is 2x a chance for a proc, and -armour procs on CK are almost always kills when you get tread armlet echo.
|
I think this item basically makes SnY obsolete. If you're playing melee carry, I can't really think of a reason why you would want SnY over echo sabre. Similar stats, both are early-to-mid game items. The main difference is of course, one is much cheaper than the other. Not only that, echo sabre also gives extra mana, which is a good bonus on many melee carries. You can argue that SnY can be disasssembled into manta and halberd, but I can't really think of a hero that would want those 2 items (maybe Chaos Knight or Bloodseeker?)
|
Sny is still better for movespeed.. heroes like troll
|
Yeah that's a weird comparison to make (sny/echo). Besides the ogre club and the slow, they don't share... anything?
Or maybe as a mid-tier item, then yeah, you'd rather make echo now, than sny before. Well, depending on the heroes.
Anyways, strong holders would be : slark, sven, LS, magnus, tiny, WK (?).
Controversial (bad?) holders would be : PA, ursa, jugg, LC.
edit : you mention CK, but does the effect propagate to illusions? I doubt it, and if not, I'm not sold on echo for CK... (I mean you can already erase people during ult, that's sort of what the hero does, because his illusions deal 100% dmg).
|
The double hit effect does not propagate to illusions. It's still pretty significant even without ult illusions though - you're reasonably likely to get 2 2hit procs in a rift-stun-rift combo.
|
Built it on Jugger yesterday (hard game needed a faster answer before the game ended) and it felt really good. It helps with farm, enable killing supps without using ult (using diffusal in my case). But I didn't observed if it proc-ed during the ult.
|
It should proc during omnislash if Juggernaut gets a bonus normal attack without it, which should happen guaranteed if you get three consecutive slashes on the same target.
You need to be careful not to accidentally proc the sabre during your spin; you can do it intentionally to cause a slow, which wastes the double strike.
|
On November 29 2016 02:08 Buckyman wrote:
It should proc during omnislash if Juggernaut gets a bonus normal attack without it, which should happen guaranteed if you get three consecutive slashes on the same target.
You need to be careful not to accidentally proc the sabre during your spin; you can do it intentionally to cause a slow, which wastes the double strike.
Just use move command, it's the most efficient anyway
|
On November 25 2016 03:47 Murlox wrote:
Yeah that's a weird comparison to make (sny/echo). Besides the ogre club and the slow, they don't share... anything?
Or maybe as a mid-tier item, then yeah, you'd rather make echo now, than sny before. Well, depending on the heroes.
Anyways, strong holders would be : slark, sven, LS, magnus, tiny, WK (?).
Controversial (bad?) holders would be : PA, ursa, jugg, LC.
edit : you mention CK, but does the effect propagate to illusions? I doubt it, and if not, I'm not sold on echo for CK... (I mean you can already erase people during ult, that's sort of what the hero does, because his illusions deal 100% dmg).
Why would it be "bad" on PA? Just curious.
|
Cause blink strike gives high as. So one extra hit wont matter. Also she doesn't really need that much mana regen, so she only gets 10 strength.
|
I guess I get that it's not ideal, but at the and of the day, isn't the potential for that extra life-ending crit worth it?
|
I learned something potentially very useful during a game yesterday about Echo sabre by accidentally doing it. Maybe its already common knowledge but im all about dota and had no idea.
You apply the first hit, it applies the AS/MS debuff, you can then move command closer to them to cancel the attack animation on the 2nd echo sabre free hit), waiting for a second before hitting again, and it will apply ANOTHER AS/MS debuff.
I haven't tested this thoroughly for super accurate timing on how long you can wait before losing the bonus on your 2nd hit, but this could be very useful in many situations, it slows the opponent for twice as long, giving you and your team the advantage to ensure a catch/kill.
On another subject, one of my favorite echo sabre heroes that is more unorthodox is Bristleback. I build it in some games on him and have had success (mana regen really helps, STR, warpath is strong ATK steroid, so a free hit is great, and the snot slow + echo debuff allows easy chase and gank.
|
On November 30 2016 01:53 wheelchairs wrote:
I learned something potentially very useful during a game yesterday about Echo sabre by accidentally doing it. Maybe its already common knowledge but im all about dota and had no idea.
You apply the first hit, it applies the AS/MS debuff, you can then move command closer to them to cancel the attack animation on the 2nd echo sabre free hit), waiting for a second before hitting again, and it will apply ANOTHER AS/MS debuff.
You always apply the debuff on both hits. Usually it just refreshes the duration with a lot of overlap, but you can delay the second hit a bit more without losing the proc.
Or you can target a different enemy with the second hit and slow both.
|
On November 30 2016 01:29 Ayaz2810 wrote:
I guess I get that it's not ideal, but at the and of the day, isn't the potential for that extra life-ending crit worth it?
Of course it can be worth it. But is it worth to delay bkb or deso for echo sabre?
Pa is really good midgame, but falls of lategame when mkbs/bkb on cores and ghosts on supports are online. So you need items that let you win at that timing and as gold is limited you can only buy so much before the 30 min mark
|
On November 30 2016 01:29 Ayaz2810 wrote:
I guess I get that it's not ideal, but at the and of the day, isn't the potential for that extra life-ending crit worth it?
On Juggernaut or Chaos Knight that might work, but not Phantom Assassin. PA usually wastes the bonus attack.
PA usually engages with Blink Strike, which gives an attack speed bonus for a certain number of hits. The Echo Saber hit counts as one of those hits. So PA doesn't get any more hits than normal in a Blink Strike burst. At best, the burst finishes a fraction of a second earlier and he gets an extra normal attack as a result.
The other way PA starts fights is by throwing Stifling Dagger at range. The dagger counts as an attack and therefore procs Echo Sabre and applies an extra slow, but PA usually isn't in a position to make a bonus attack before the proc expires and therefore engages with the Sabre on cooldown.
Contrast that with Chaos Knight who uses Reality Rift to start the fight with one big hit and a nuke, which the Sabre turns into two hits and a nuke.
|
On December 01 2016 06:12 Buckyman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2016 01:29 Ayaz2810 wrote:
I guess I get that it's not ideal, but at the and of the day, isn't the potential for that extra life-ending crit worth it? On Juggernaut or Chaos Knight that might work, but not Phantom Assassin. PA usually wastes the bonus attack. PA usually engages with Blink Strike, which gives an attack speed bonus for a certain number of hits. The Echo Saber hit counts as one of those hits. So PA doesn't get any more hits than normal in a Blink Strike burst. At best, the burst finishes a fraction of a second earlier and he gets an extra normal attack as a result. The other way PA starts fights is by throwing Stifling Dagger at range. The dagger counts as an attack and therefore procs Echo Sabre and applies an extra slow, but PA usually isn't in a position to make a bonus attack before the proc expires and therefore engages with the Sabre on cooldown. Contrast that with Chaos Knight who uses Reality Rift to start the fight with one big hit and a nuke, which the Sabre turns into two hits and a nuke.
Excellent explanation. Thanks!
|
A little unconventional, but I've been toying with an early echo sabre on Spectre, instead of aquila/urn (kinda fell out of love with the urn build lately). I'll get phase/wand/vanguard/echo and around 20 mins I'm quite the formidable fighting force. A double desolate hit + the echo slow is all but guaranteed death for a hero caught away from allies, then the followup slow from the dagger makes a second echo sabre proc likely.
The extra strength is also very welcome
Finally, the mana regen is amazing, as it lets me spam dagger constantly, which significantly speeds up my farm speed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
