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Active: 3738 users

Badly need some insights on this picks

Forum Index > Dota 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
gotnowheels
Profile Joined June 2016
Philippines51 Posts
June 19 2016 17:11 GMT
#1
So in a few weeks from now we are competing on a local tournament here in my place. When we did our practice we decided that our main hero line up is

Lich
Magnus
Dark Seer
Void
Tide Hunter/Earth Shaker/Slardar

Now, I know this is a cheesy picks but we have been succesfull so far playing ranked gaming with these line ups. However, since we were not been able to have a game where we were out-drafted when we have these heroes, I don't know what's our disadvantages.

When we gank, we usually let DS or Magnus initiate first then lich dives in to cast his/her ult then Void will finish with a stun from ES.

They made me their captain (which I really don't like being one) and this is so far our go to line up per se. I don't have a lot of experience participating in tournaments as well as being a captain, so I need the help of someone who's has more knowledge on this. Just shifted from LOL to Dota 2 last few months ago. I preferred Dota than LOL thought the community is a bit harsh. I would really love your help, thank you!
We smoke together, gank as one!
ahw
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada1099 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-19 17:40:50
June 19 2016 17:20 GMT
#2
It's a 4p1 so you'd struggle against multicore, especially early push and split push lineups.

Ur too all in on ults. If you are split or take bad engagements, a good team will play around your chrono / rp and punish you.

It's just a "throw all ur ults in to a team fight" lineup. There's not much analysis. You'll win against not smart teams, you'll be shredded by a good draft.

Edit;

Examples that would punish you: NP, Chen / ench / nigma, dazzle/venge/phx, viper strats... Any strat that forces t1s around 10 mins is gunna wreck you hard cause ur all so level dependant

Also consider ur mid lane will likely lose 70-80% of match ups unless you dedicate lich there
Baggage
Profile Joined October 2012
Hong Kong593 Posts
June 19 2016 17:37 GMT
#3
Although it's great to practice and be familiar with a specific lineup, against smart opponents and in anything other than a Bo1 you're going to be punished for lack of flexibility.

My personal suggestion is to have each player make a list of 2-4 heroes that they feel super comfortable with then look for the synergy and practicing the draft around a certain pool. After practice/experimentation it'll help develop a style of play for your team.

I think in terms of drafting, your first 2 picks should generally be 1 support + core. If your team's hero pool is not particularly large, it's probably better to draft heroes for the less versatile players first.

[10:23pm] Gosi: I want to be famous and have many twitter followers and get blowjobs during tournements at the bathroom [10:23pm] Gosi: do i play mnid or support for thhat [10:23pm] Gosi: u tell me
gotnowheels
Profile Joined June 2016
Philippines51 Posts
June 19 2016 18:53 GMT
#4
thank you guys, your insights helped me a lot, now i have to go back to the drawing board... thankfully the tournament is 3 weeks away so i still have a week to think about our drafts... thank you really, this is a big help, i think i'm going to ask your feed back and maybe provide you the gameID during our tournaments so that i can get some feedbacks from our games? is that allowed in here?
We smoke together, gank as one!
gotnowheels
Profile Joined June 2016
Philippines51 Posts
June 19 2016 19:22 GMT
#5
On June 20 2016 02:20 ahw wrote:
It's a 4p1 so you'd struggle against multicore, especially early push and split push lineups.

Ur too all in on ults. If you are split or take bad engagements, a good team will play around your chrono / rp and punish you.

It's just a "throw all ur ults in to a team fight" lineup. There's not much analysis. You'll win against not smart teams, you'll be shredded by a good draft.

Edit;

Examples that would punish you: NP, Chen / ench / nigma, dazzle/venge/phx, viper strats... Any strat that forces t1s around 10 mins is gunna wreck you hard cause ur all so level dependant

Also consider ur mid lane will likely lose 70-80% of match ups unless you dedicate lich there


Examples that would punish you: NP, Chen / ench / nigma, dazzle/venge/phx, viper strats... Any strat that forces t1s around 10 mins is gunna wreck you hard cause ur all so level dependant

Also consider ur mid lane will likely lose 70-80% of match ups unless you dedicate lich there[/QUOTE]

Thank you, means a lot to me.

During the game, what are the priorities as a captain? I know it's a vague question, but I haven't got any experience playing in this position.
We smoke together, gank as one!
Archeon
Profile Joined May 2011
3265 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-20 16:53:32
June 19 2016 23:06 GMT
#6
I'm a shitty 3-4k player, so take my words with salt. I did captain some though, read a lot on the topic and am 7:1 with the stack that I captained some, so either I'm a lucky bastard or I got at least some things right.

@Draft: How exactly do you intend to lane this? Somehow your draft lacks a second support, unless you intend to play jungle ds or pick shaker.
Weaknesses of your draft:
1. Push in any form:
As Ahw already said you are very vulnerable to early push strats that hit before all your heroes come online. You are also very vulnerable to any form of splitpush, because you have 3-4 heroes without tp cancel that isn't a huge cd spell. You don't push very fast either, so any pushing hero will just splitpush a tower in the same time your entire stack pushes a tower.
2. Lanes and rotations:
Your lanes are rather weak aside from whichever lane lich is helping, your safelane is 100% lost against anything mobile, your midlane can only work if lich babysits and will probably eat a lot of harass against common ranged mids like invoker, has a hard time contesting runes, the only thing that will work well on average without major outplays is offlane ds.
You also are terrible at rotating and reacting to rotations. All your slotted heroes are bad at ganking unless they fire their lvl 6 skill off, which in conjunction with the fact that you'll likely loose 2 of three lanes anyways means that there's a good chance to never actually get to the point where you can teamfight successful. Any roaming support is gonna make your lanes hell, your lineup has almost zero defensiveness that again isn't ulti-based.
3. Damage
Your only real source of damage is lich ult honestly. If you don't combo well with it, you have lots of long cd control that might win you a teamfight and kill two heroes, but there's barely enough for more. Alch f.e. is probably unkillable for your entire lineup until ~40 minutes when your void starts dishing out enough damage to counteract alchs regeneration.

@ingame calls & general behavior: The most important thing is to have a plan, ideally already when you are drafting and then make adjustments. Identify your win conditions and imagine a way towards your win condition. Communicate that way/plan and make calls about what you think should be done. Reflect on where you stand, where you need to go and what you need to do for that all the time.
Don't micro ppl, don't tell them to "use that spell now", trust in your players that they can play their role (even if they can't). There's nothing more annoying than ppl telling you how to play your hero. But there's nothing wrong with a person telling you when you play sup that your mid is getting slaughtered and really needs a rotation badly if you want to push the tower and mid is supposed to do something in the fight that might happen.
Accept ideas of others, discuss them if you have the time and don't like them, but in the worst case you are supposed to be the man with the plan, so following your gut feeling isn't bad.
Don't give orders, ask people to do something. If they say no develop alternatives.

Also quoting swindlez: "the first rule of leadership is to accept more than your share of the blame and less than your share of the credit."
Aka don't point fingers. Tell ppl that your draft could have been better, that you made a bad call, take their blame and put it on yourself. Don't call the void out for missing 3 chronos, just draft him something else next time. The guy who sucked will be thankful, the other guys will still see the truth, but they won't slaughter the guy who did the mistake and your team will continue to exist instead of imploding.

I assume your ranked matches were ap?
low gravity, yes-yes!
gotnowheels
Profile Joined June 2016
Philippines51 Posts
June 20 2016 15:17 GMT
#7
On June 20 2016 08:06 Blackfeather wrote:
I'm a shitty 3-4k player, so take my words with salt. I did captain some though, read a lot on the topic and am 7:1 with the stack that I captained some, so either I'm a lucky bastard or I got at least some things right.

@Draft: How exactly do you intend to lane this? Somehow your draft lacks a second support, unless you intend to play jungle ds or pick shaker.
Weaknesses of your draft:
1. Push in any form:
As Ahw already said you are very vulnerable to early push strats that hit before all your heroes come online. You are also very vulnerable to any form of splitpush, because you have 3-4 heroes without tp cancel that isn't a huge cd spell. You don't push very fast either, so any pushing hero will just splitpush a tower in the same time your entire stack pushes a tower.
2. Lanes and rotations:
Your lanes are rather weak aside from whichever lane lich is helping, your safelane is 100% lost against anything mobile, your midlane can only work if lich babysits and will probably eat a lot of harass against common ranged mids like invoker, has a hard time contesting runes, the only thing that will work well on average without major outplays is offlane ds.
You also are terrible at rotating and reacting to rotations. All your slotted heroes are bad at ganking unless they fire their lvl 6 skill off, which in conjunction with the fact that you'll likely loose 2 of three lanes anyways means that there's a good chance to never actually get to the point where you can teamfight successful. Any roaming support is gonna make your lanes hell, your lineup has almost zero defensiveness that again isn't ulti-based.
3. Damage
Your only real source of damage is lich ult honestly. If you don't combo well with it, you have lots of long cd control that might win you a teamfight and kill two heroes, but there's barely enough for more. Alch f.e. is probably unkillable for your entire lineup until ~40 minutes when your void starts dishing out enough damage to counteract alchs regeneration.

@ingame calls & general behavior: The most important thing is to have a plan, ideally already when you are drafting and then make adjustments. Identify your win conditions and imagine a way towards your win condition. Communicate that way/plan and make calls about what you think should be done. Reflect on where you stand, where you need to go and what you need to do for that all the time.
Don't micro ppl, don't tell them to "use that spell now", trust in your players that they can play their role (even if they can't). There's nothing more annoying than ppl telling you how to play your hero. But there's nothing wrong with a person telling you when you play sup that your mid is getting slaughtered and really needs a rotation badly if you want to push the tower and mid is supposed to do something in the fight that might happen.
Accept ideas of others, discuss them if you have the time and don't like them, but in the worst case you are supposed to be the man with the plan, so following your gut feeling isn't bad.
Don't give orders, ask people to do something. If they say no develop alternatives.

Also quoting swindlez: "the first rule of leadership is to accept more than your share of the blame and less than your share of the credit."
Aka don't point fingers. Tell ppl that your draft could have been better, that you made a bad call, take their blame and put it on yourself. Don't call the void out for missing 3 chronos, just draft him something else next time. The guy who sucked will be thankful, the other guys will still see the truth, but they won't slaughter the guy who did the mistake and your team will continue to exist instead of imploding.

Btw you'll probably get slaughtered in your first draft, that happens to everyone I believe. Don't give up!

I assume your ranked matches were ap?



We play both ap and cm mode. Right now we are trying to learn playing CM. The only reason why I became captain because I am the oldest amongst my team mates. I really do think that age doesn't determine who's going to lead.
We smoke together, gank as one!
gotnowheels
Profile Joined June 2016
Philippines51 Posts
October 17 2016 14:46 GMT
#8
I wanna update you guys about what happened in the tournament. So basically during our semi-finals match, we were able to pick this exact line-up. As you can see, we were having a hard time when the match is at 24 minutes of the game. Our opponents never allowed us to gank them perfectly, our timings was off, and they were picking us 2 heroes or 3 heroes at a time. Never did they attempted to gank us when we were all present. However though, for some reason, we were able to comeback at 41 minutes of the game, our void and slardar went crazy, and the turning points was when we were able to wipe them out in Roshan pit, we went to their mid racks and go for GG push right away. Unfortunately we lost at the finals, I just want you to know that we really appreciate you guys helping me, we won't be able to land at second place without you, so thank you and thank you Team Liquid for providing us a forum where the members are really helpful.
We smoke together, gank as one!
nanaoei
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
3358 Posts
October 17 2016 19:44 GMT
#9
i want to wish you congratulations. this is what a community is for.
*@boesthius' FF7 nostalgia stream bomb* "we should work on a 'Final Progamer' fangame»whitera can be a protagonist---lastlie: "we save world and then defense it"
HarryKlein
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany220 Posts
October 19 2016 08:20 GMT
#10
Congrats man
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