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If you want to read previous installments you can find Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3 in our strategy forum. |
"If you count how much enemy movement is spotted by wards, you can determine between good and bad wards. Good wards show a lot of enemy movement, while bad wards show literally no movement."
Oh I get it, so instead of wasting money on sentry to deward, we can stick to lanes for about 12 minutes and render their wards completely useless + their support will look like a total fool.
Win-Win.
But no seriously now; I'd argue that ward that spots 0 movement is still a legit ward because in case of defensive warding you don't have to know exactly where they are, you have to know where they aren't. If you know 100% that they aren't on a point X, you know that from that point, there will be no hooks, spears, hookshots, etc. You ward defensively so you can farm without fear of getting ganked and if they don't gank you, your ward is useless? It's stupid not to ward to protect farm (protect yourself from a gank, that is). Because the risk is too great and 150 gold is nothing compared to the amount you're going to farm given the vision from the wards.
I don't see why people have the need to quantify everything. If they don't decide to gank, my defensive wards are bad? They could have been invested in something else (gold), but that's too great of a risk. Without wards all they have to do is decide, and I'm dead.
That definition seems kind of only partially right, I don't know...
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On September 20 2014 16:26 Badjas wrote:
Applause for Ler, great contribution!
There is nothing better for pro dota than to increase the skill level of the breeding pool.
What is a "breeding pool"?
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This is fucking amazing, thank you! Makes me wanna play support again.  In fact its so good that it got me to contribute to LD for the first time, by linking the 3rd and 4th part of this guide to Liquipedia! Yay!
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On September 20 2014 17:13 Hexo_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 16:26 Badjas wrote:
Applause for Ler, great contribution!
There is nothing better for pro dota than to increase the skill level of the breeding pool. What is a "breeding pool"?
Trash tier
Everyone started there. Many high-potential players will quit the game in favor of other activities for various reasons, one of them being that they have a hard time improving.
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On September 20 2014 11:46 Acritter wrote:
The main thing you're missing here is a section that details when it is acceptable to skip wards as a support. I've included the text here, so you can copy it right into the guide easily.
6.3 Skipping the Purchasing of Wards
6.3.1 When can I skip buying wards?
-Never.
(this is probably an important point to make)
I have to say that i had games where buying wards on cd was just plainly wrong. The main purpose of warding is to understand your enemies plans and movements and e.g. in a game where your enemy pretty much just 5-man pushes you more than two wards are hardly necessary.
Don't get me wrong, it would be good for the enemy to 5-man smoke gank into the push, but that rarely ever happens in pubs. Also in that scenario you need very aggressive wards and guess by their absence that they are 5-man-smoking, which is usually risky if your enemies have the better skirmish/teamfight.
@Ler: Thank you for the guides, that had to be a lot of work.
When is it acceptable to risk not seeing a rosh attempt? Cause I tend to have a ward down at rosh after 15 mins always, but 99% of the rosh attempts that aren't done by lycan/troll/ursa (who pretty much always smoke anyways) are done after big won teamfights. Which makes the ward very underwhelming on average.
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Shift-queuing a move command in the same direction you're going after a ward placement can make it hard/impossible to spot you placing a ward (unless they look at your inventory).
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Just want to add on the point that not seeing any enemies in 1 side of the map under your ward vision means you can infer that the heroes are on the other side on maps. Sometimes you just have to weigh the choice of planting sub-optimal wards VS the difficulty of planting the best possible ward.
Using the same logic, aggressive wards can also part of the roles which defensive wards perform. If you see no heroes farming their lanes and jungle on the other side of the map, you can safely back off and not risk losing any farming time because you know they are not farming anything either. Whereas with just only defensive wards, you have to somewhat make an intelligent guess whether they are smoked up or actually still farming outside your vision.
Also another category of wards where you place before battles to help you teamfight better. Vision that helps the team to initiate or prevent enemy initiation (e.g. playing against void during night time), and also reveals positioning of their backline heroes.
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On September 20 2014 09:48 Chewbacca. wrote:
I know putting in every common ward spot would be too much work. But I would suggest at least the common pull camp blocking/dewarding spots and maybe the off map tinker hunting spots. People seem to screw those up all the time.
I'll just drop a link to CritWhale's map here: http://critwhale.com/DotaMap.jpg
It shows the spawn block boxes, and all (?) the juke points and where you need to cut the trees down to get there.
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On September 20 2014 17:13 Hexo_ wrote:
"If you count how much enemy movement is spotted by wards, you can determine between good and bad wards. Good wards show a lot of enemy movement, while bad wards show literally no movement."
Oh I get it, so instead of wasting money on sentry to deward, we can stick to lanes for about 12 minutes and render their wards completely useless + their support will look like a total fool.
Win-Win.
But no seriously now; I'd argue that ward that spots 0 movement is still a legit ward because in case of defensive warding you don't have to know exactly where they are, you have to know where they aren't. If you know 100% that they aren't on a point X, you know that from that point, there will be no hooks, spears, hookshots, etc. You ward defensively so you can farm without fear of getting ganked and if they don't gank you, your ward is useless? It's stupid not to ward to protect farm (protect yourself from a gank, that is). Because the risk is too great and 150 gold is nothing compared to the amount you're going to farm given the vision from the wards.
I don't see why people have the need to quantify everything. If they don't decide to gank, my defensive wards are bad? They could have been invested in something else (gold), but that's too great of a risk. Without wards all they have to do is decide, and I'm dead.
That definition seems kind of only partially right, I don't know...
that is exactly what I wanted to post!
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On September 20 2014 06:03 Heyoka wrote:
Aaaaaaaaand now that it's done I'll get a post up that has the whole guide in something like a PDF so you can reference it all at once easier.
Can't wait!
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how did you guys determine the circumference of the ward vision when scaling it down for the minimap. and is the radius of the vision accurate in proportion? i would like to know due to the fact i keep a log of specific ward spots and would like to use the same image for my own.
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On September 20 2014 17:13 Hexo_ wrote:
"If you count how much enemy movement is spotted by wards, you can determine between good and bad wards. Good wards show a lot of enemy movement, while bad wards show literally no movement."
Oh I get it, so instead of wasting money on sentry to deward, we can stick to lanes for about 12 minutes and render their wards completely useless + their support will look like a total fool.
Win-Win.
But no seriously now; I'd argue that ward that spots 0 movement is still a legit ward because in case of defensive warding you don't have to know exactly where they are, you have to know where they aren't. If you know 100% that they aren't on a point X, you know that from that point, there will be no hooks, spears, hookshots, etc. You ward defensively so you can farm without fear of getting ganked and if they don't gank you, your ward is useless? It's stupid not to ward to protect farm (protect yourself from a gank, that is). Because the risk is too great and 150 gold is nothing compared to the amount you're going to farm given the vision from the wards.
I don't see why people have the need to quantify everything. If they don't decide to gank, my defensive wards are bad? They could have been invested in something else (gold), but that's too great of a risk. Without wards all they have to do is decide, and I'm dead.
That definition seems kind of only partially right, I don't know...
this is faulty. this also contrast with objective wards. a simple example would be, placing a defensive safelane ward at 2 mins when it was clear the composition had a solo offlaner & the safelaner had a dual lane. this is one of the worst mistakes i always see happen. the offlaner could have used that ward for incoming ganks or to block spawn or the mid laner could have used the ward to spot high ground & rune. there is literally no ganks coming unless the enemy team has a level 1 roam pair like mirana & sd, but too often this is not the case.
EDIT:sorry didnt mean to double post.
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On September 21 2014 23:40 saocyn wrote:
how did you guys determine the circumference of the ward vision when scaling it down for the minimap. and is the radius of the vision accurate in proportion? i would like to know due to the fact i keep a log of specific ward spots and would like to use the same image for my own.
its not accurate
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Awesome series, I disagree somewhat about rune wards though. If you're placing a ward JUST for the rune and nothing else then I agree, but several ward positions give vision of the rune AND important paths. Examples: ward near radiant ancients, dire jungle ward that everyone uses, wards that cover rune and rosh, etc.
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Great warding guide, thanks for this
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On September 22 2014 04:53 R3DT1D3 wrote:
Awesome series, I disagree somewhat about rune wards though. If you're placing a ward JUST for the rune and nothing else then I agree, but several ward positions give vision of the rune AND important paths. Examples: ward near radiant ancients, dire jungle ward that everyone uses, wards that cover rune and rosh, etc.
However this is exactly what he meant. For example it may be smarter to block the ancients with the ward near the radiant ancient instead of providing rune vision, if the opponents have a tinker on their team. In this case blocking the ancients is worth more than having rune vision.
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On September 20 2014 17:13 Hexo_ wrote:
"If you count how much enemy movement is spotted by wards, you can determine between good and bad wards. Good wards show a lot of enemy movement, while bad wards show literally no movement."
Oh I get it, so instead of wasting money on sentry to deward, we can stick to lanes for about 12 minutes and render their wards completely useless + their support will look like a total fool.
Win-Win.
But no seriously now; I'd argue that ward that spots 0 movement is still a legit ward because in case of defensive warding you don't have to know exactly where they are, you have to know where they aren't. If you know 100% that they aren't on a point X, you know that from that point, there will be no hooks, spears, hookshots, etc. You ward defensively so you can farm without fear of getting ganked and if they don't gank you, your ward is useless? It's stupid not to ward to protect farm (protect yourself from a gank, that is). Because the risk is too great and 150 gold is nothing compared to the amount you're going to farm given the vision from the wards.
I don't see why people have the need to quantify everything. If they don't decide to gank, my defensive wards are bad? They could have been invested in something else (gold), but that's too great of a risk. Without wards all they have to do is decide, and I'm dead.
That definition seems kind of only partially right, I don't know...
I do agree with you. However he is still right on average. Wards that see more movement are in general more valuable.
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I like the guide but I agree that some points may be too vague for people that have trouble warding in the first place.
A prime example is defensive wards aren't always for your safe lane. I regularly use them for my mid lane to be safe from incoming ganks, and they usually see the rune as well (which you say is not necessary but always a perk whenever you can't defend a rune you can know what to expect if the opposing mid doesn't get it).
A lot of times too I will use wards in some what less optimal way because you either aren't in a spot to get your best ward, or because you want to accomplish an immediate objective at the cost of your ward becoming less effective after you accomplish you objective. This is common when warding behind outer towers to take them and see how aggressive you can be pushing into it.
Most of my points though don't include the effect of smoke since that is used to get around wards efficiently but you can't down play the effect of some wards covering runes/other defensive positions.
Overall good guide for newer players and I like it.
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EPT
