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Lalalaland34491 Posts
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/8/85/Lifestealer_Large.png) Lifestealer
In the dungeons of Devarque, a vengeful wizard lay in shackles, plotting his escape. He shared his cell with a gibbering creature known as N'aix, a thief cursed by the Vile Council with longevity, so that its life-sentence for theft and cozening might be as punishing as possible. Over the years, its chains had corroded, along with its sanity; N'aix retained no memory of its former life and no longer dreamt of escape. Seeing a perfect vessel for his plans, the wizard wove a spell of Infestation and cast his life-force into N'aix's body, intending to compel N'aix to sacrifice itself in a frenzy of violence while the mage returned to his body and crept away unnoticed. Instead, the wizard found his mind caught in a vortex of madness so powerful that it swept away his plans and shattered his will. Jarred to consciousness by the sudden infusion of fresh life, N'aix woke from its nightmare of madness and obeyed the disembodied voice that filled its skull, which had only the one thought: To escape. In that moment Lifestealer was born. The creature cast its mind into dungeon guards and soldiers, compelling them to open locks and cut down their companions, opening an unobstructed path to freedom while feeding on their lives. Lifestealer still wears the broken shackles as a warning that none may hold him, but on the inside remains a prisoner. Two minds inhabit the single form—a nameless creature of malevolent cunning, and the Master whose voice he pretends to obey.
For abilities, stats, and other information, visit this hero's Liquipedia page here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Lifestealer
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One of the better choke point junglers since he excels at 1v1 creeping. There's a tree you can cut down in the dire jungle's central medium camp that makes it so that you attack one creep at a time and the others just run around in a circle until their turn to die.
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I honestly feel this guy gets kited WAYYY to easily, especially when their is a Viper which makes him practically useless.
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Ur fine vs viper if u get a blink buddy to infest and blink on him. He can't kite u if u open wounds him and start at melee range.
But yes viper isn't a hero you want to face most of the time.
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On June 10 2014 03:32 Sn0_Man wrote:
Ur fine vs viper if u get a blink buddy to infest and blink on him. He can't kite u if u open wounds him and start at melee range.
But yes viper isn't a hero you want to face most of the time.
But aren't most heroes with blink also countered by Viper?? Riki, Phant, and AM rely on attack speed and QoP isn't melee. Riki would seem the best due to invis but GoT and your fucked.
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On June 10 2014 04:07 Mecha King Ghidorah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2014 03:32 Sn0_Man wrote:
Ur fine vs viper if u get a blink buddy to infest and blink on him. He can't kite u if u open wounds him and start at melee range.
But yes viper isn't a hero you want to face most of the time. But aren't most heroes with blink also countered by Viper?? Riki, Phant, and AM rely on attack speed and QoP isn't melee. Riki would seem the best due to invis but GoT and your fucked.
If you get initiated as a viper by someone with a blink, you can't do a lot about it.
However, Viper stops you from blinking to safety, yes.
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On June 10 2014 04:07 Mecha King Ghidorah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2014 03:32 Sn0_Man wrote:
Ur fine vs viper if u get a blink buddy to infest and blink on him. He can't kite u if u open wounds him and start at melee range.
But yes viper isn't a hero you want to face most of the time. But aren't most heroes with blink also countered by Viper?? Riki, Phant, and AM rely on attack speed and QoP isn't melee. Riki would seem the best due to invis but GoT and your fucked.
It doesn't have to be a hero that specifically has blink as a native skill. There are plenty of heroes that always buy blink dagger (e.g. puck, magnus) and also heroes that have other mobility skills (e.g. storm spirit w/ ball lightning).
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Storm Spirit, Puck, Sand King, Centaur, Axe, Tide, Batrider, Phoenix, Mirana, Clockwerk, Phoenix, Spirit Breaker, Nyx, Lina, Tinker, Magnus, Tusk, Slardar, Timbersaw, and probably more would all apply to a certain extent. It doesn't need to be an innate full disjointing blink. Really anything that closes a gap well would work to some degree.
Generally the ones you're looking at are the ones like Storm, Puck, Centaur, or Clock that can zip in and create good burst + immobilize the target to give you time to finish them off.
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Something as simple as running around inside an invis bounty hunter works provided ur opponents suck at placing detection.
Doing it inside riki sounds 10x funnier and 10x less viable.
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I don't like to build either drums or armlet on this hero. Drums because I dislike the item, and armlet because I hate toggling. I tend to rush a shadow blade, which is easily the best item in pubs. After which I get a basher or orchid. I may get halberd, or ac skadi etc depending on the game. Not saying its the ideal build though. Basically I build him just to pick off heroes.
If there's a naix carrier like storm or puck, I would still build shadowblade simply because of how broken it is in pubs.
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Naix can't really support the mana for consistent shadowblade ganking though, and with his extremely limited flash-farm potential it can be hard to dedicate time to hero-hunting with lothars if they group up. Lothars is unfortunately not a strong teamfight item either so it's very punishable in that manner.
I'm personally a big SnY believer as not only is the MS incredibly relevant on naix all game long, but the IAS and STR are both very attractive. Plus it's buildup is unbelievable, you can farm quite well with it and it's a very cheap "big" item for early fighting. Early game maim procs are often as good as bash procs too.
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On June 10 2014 04:56 Sn0_Man wrote:
Naix can't really support the mana for consistent shadowblade ganking though, and with his extremely limited flash-farm potential it can be hard to dedicate time to hero-hunting with lothars if they group up. Lothars is unfortunately not a strong teamfight item either so it's very punishable in that manner.
I'm personally a big SnY believer as not only is the MS incredibly relevant on naix all game long, but the IAS and STR are both very attractive. Plus it's buildup is unbelievable, you can farm quite well with it and it's a very cheap "big" item for early fighting. Early game maim procs are often as good as bash procs too.
Yep that's true. Mana pool is basically why drums is often gotten on naix, even if they went midas. I usually just ferry clarities over, and more often than not my second item is an orchid.
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United States47024 Posts
Shadow Blade is also stronger in pubs due to the fact that you're not always reliably going to have a Blink user in pubs to ride in on/gank with (either because your team didn't pick one, or the player in question didn't buy one/isn't using it well).
Naix has a really hard time engaging fights normally, so you either need to have a hero that can help you do that with Infest, or you need to buy an item for it. Getting a hero to help you is generally better, but the reality of pubs is that you simply don't always get to do that, so the item has to suffice.
On June 10 2014 04:49 DucK- wrote:
If there's a naix carrier like storm or puck, I would still build shadowblade simply because of how broken it is in pubs.
It's also just generally hard to manage ganks in such a way that it's smooth for both heroes' tempos if you're not constantly communicating with one another (basically an impossibility unless you're stacking with them). Lothar's lets you better manage your solo tempo, which is generally just better in pubs.
I personally wouldn't be so dismissive of Drums and Armlet, but Lothar's is quite strong on this hero in pubs.
On June 10 2014 04:56 Sn0_Man wrote:
Lothars is unfortunately not a strong teamfight item either so it's very punishable in that manner.
It actually is a teamfight item in that if you don't have a Blink hero to carry you in, you more or less need Lothar's or Blink as an engaging item (and yes, Blink Naix used to be a thing--though that's really not necessary given the wider pool of practical Blink users and the fact that Lothar's isn't a bad item anymore).
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Anyone tried to build MoM on this guy? On paper it seems really good but i haven't tested it myself yet. Insane chase + killing power early and faster jungle. With rage up you can blow up heroes really fast but i guess the downside is that with rage+open wounds you already kill 1 hero really fast and then MoM just leaves you more vulnerable after it. Im just trying to to think some alternatives to the usual phase,drums,armlet,sny
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SoCal8910 Posts
On June 12 2014 19:54 Daray wrote:
Anyone tried to build MoM on this guy? On paper it seems really good but i haven't tested it myself yet. Insane chase + killing power early and faster jungle. With rage up you can blow up heroes really fast but i guess the downside is that with rage+open wounds you already kill 1 hero really fast and then MoM just leaves you more vulnerable after it. Im just trying to to think some alternatives to the usual phase,drums,armlet,sny
usually with heroes that go for a mask of madness, there is a certain skill with an upside to the +%dmg. a common example would be spirit breaker and his greater bash bonus dmg based on movement speed, as well as his his ultimate dealing a greater bash.
while it wouldn't be downright horrendous to build MoM on lifestealer, the increased dmg taken makes an already highly focused target to be focused harder (especially with crumby base armor). on the bright side, magic nukes would not take the increased dmg since you have rage.
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Is there any reliable way to build him rather than race car(phase-drum/S&Y/yasha) or armlet car(phase-armlet)?
I.e treads as boots and other follow-ups? Excluding midas.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On June 12 2014 22:14 Laserist wrote:
Is there any reliable way to build him rather than race car(phase-drum/S&Y/yasha) or armlet car(phase-armlet)?
I.e treads as boots and other follow-ups? Excluding midas.
is treads + maelstrom/mjolnir still viable?
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I thought the same, probably works but if someone has any extended experiment on that or other build to see with downsides and upsides, it'd be awesome.
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On June 12 2014 22:17 BluemoonSC wrote:
is treads + maelstrom/mjolnir still viable?
What do you mean? Why is mjollnir a bad choice for naix nowadays?
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On June 12 2014 23:07 Brexas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2014 22:17 BluemoonSC wrote:
is treads + maelstrom/mjolnir still viable? What do you mean? Why is mjollnir a bad choice for naix nowadays?
Mjollnir is okay after your armlet / S&Y, but you typically want to get a basher and then mjollnir if you are going that route. (depending if you prefer armlet or not these days). Depends on the situation - but yeah its still super good. For the most part, the item after S&Y / armlet you get is extremely situational, but more often then not you want to grab basher / abyssal next.
I really dislike treads, however.
On June 12 2014 19:54 Daray wrote:
Anyone tried to build MoM on this guy? On paper it seems really good but i haven't tested it myself yet. Insane chase + killing power early and faster jungle. With rage up you can blow up heroes really fast but i guess the downside is that with rage+open wounds you already kill 1 hero really fast and then MoM just leaves you more vulnerable after it. Im just trying to to think some alternatives to the usual phase,drums,armlet,sny
Phase + drums are a much safer build than MoM.
MoM is great if you are just pubstomping and the other team is awful though.
Shadowblade is fine in 3k level pubs, but I wouldn't recommend it otherwise.
Note: I pretty much never get Armlet anymore on this hero.
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United States47024 Posts
It really depends on the game because how much movespeed/mobility you need on this hero is heavily dependent on both teamcomps
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On June 13 2014 00:19 TheYango wrote:
It really depends on the game because how much movespeed/mobility you need on this hero is heavily dependent on both teamcomps
Well, in pubs I don't often trust my team to really...lock down properly.
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United States47024 Posts
It still applies, especially since pubs have wider variance in team compositions.
No matter how bad your team is at locking things down, you probably aren't going to go racecar against a team that's like 4x melee because if they're incapable of kiting you, your primary concern is being able to manfight multiple melee heroes at once.
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Go HotD, Dominate a creep, then infest it. ez game ez life.
The only reason I rememberd that was because HotD is kinda not the worst manfight item on naix since armor 
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On June 13 2014 00:34 TheYango wrote:
It still applies, especially since pubs have wider variance in team compositions.
No matter how bad your team is at locking things down, you probably aren't going to go racecar against a team that's like 4x melee because if they're incapable of kiting you, your primary concern is being able to manfight multiple melee heroes at once.
I dont know, typically if I lose games on this hero, it isn't because I'm getting out man fighted by melee heroes with my racecar build. Typically its because other reasons (i'm playing like an idiot), or they have a SD, Enigma, Bane, and a beast master, or something, which armlet isn't particularly helpful for.
I just really don't like armlet after the toggle change.
Just my experience thus far.
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armlet is still a very good item on naix. it's just not completely broken anymore. the active on armlet is just so strong on str heroes and naix has feast/open wound which both works well to counteract the -life from the active. it allows you to beat down almost any hero before open wound/rage ends.
i still get treads if i see my opponents dont have that many fast heroes since naix isnt slow and has open wounds. treads provides alot more burst and works better with proc items like basher mkb lighting hammer. but if they have fast heroes like luna/am i probably go racecar build.
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Has anyone had any succes with MoM on Naix? I've been curious about a Treads MoM Mjolnir build on Naix for a while but my games have either been won/lost before i've had the chance to try it out for real :<
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More attack speed is nice, but that's only really effective if you're up against heroes with a lot of hp or if you already have damage to boost DPS with speed. That's from the damage standpoint, for the usefulness of increased movespeed it's eh; it gives some chaseability and survivability but it also makes him squishier. You also need to consider that MoM doesn't really add any type of survivability unless naix is actually hitting something. This is all assuming you are getting MoM kind of early, for later game it's kind of overshadowed by other IAS items that also grant some surivability/proc effects.
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How about blink? I've seen a lot of people have success with blink after armlet (into basher or something).
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if you have no other hero to close the gap for you and you are ahead blink is fine on most carries like sven naix etc. with the manacost removal icefrog made blink much more viable/popular on pretty much all heroes.
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On June 13 2014 03:52 synapse wrote:
How about blink? I've seen a lot of people have success with blink after armlet (into basher or something).
Blink can be legit in some situations, I just can't figure out when those situations are.
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I can't see this hero picked much in this patch. This was a great counter pick to pre nerf alchemist and lycan with the high hp they get from the ult. But now days PA Luna morphling Mirana, these high mobility carry just kites naix all day. And you have to buy mkb to counter their evasion. I dont think naix want to buy mkb its a bad item on naix compared to abyssal.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On June 13 2014 09:12 Eternalobi wrote:
I can't see this hero picked much in this patch. This was a great counter pick to pre nerf alchemist and lycan with the high hp they get from the ult. But now days PA Luna morphling Mirana, these high mobility carry just kites naix all day. And you have to buy mkb to counter their evasion. I dont think naix want to buy mkb its a bad item on naix compared to abyssal.
he'll still be a niche pick when combo'd with an aggressive initiator for naix bombs (like storm spirit), but there are other carries that do his job better. MKB isn't bad on naix considering it gives dmg and attack speed, but something like a basher (into abyssal) is better for sure because it gives you strength and boosts your survivability. you can't guarantee that those carries will go for a butterfly either, but I see what you mean for the evasion on PA.
the problem is that everyone has figured out how to deal with him AND he's received 2 consecutive nerfs to the CD on rage. he also needs some items that give him armor or he will just be right clicked down in a team fight. there are better carries with better synergy out there right now than naix.
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Would this guy and Spirit Breaker be a good combo??? SB gives mobility to Naix due to charge and then when the target has been reached Naix just pops out?? The speed aura would also go well due to Naix's slow speed.
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Naix is quite a fast hero innately. Also charge is a super questionable form of initiation compared to a blink buddy. Also having not one but two fat melee heroes that have to right click all fight to be relevant is not good.
I mean sure if you are snowballing it works but what doesn't?
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On June 14 2014 00:38 Sn0_Man wrote:
Naix is quite a fast hero innately. Also charge is a super questionable form of initiation compared to a blink buddy. Also having not one but two fat melee heroes that have to right click all fight to be relevant is not good.
I mean sure if you are snowballing it works but what doesn't?
He's fast?? I've always thought of him as a really slow hero, maybe it is because it is just because he is a super short ranged hero. I've always been able to kite him to hell.
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Naix has 310 or 315 ms, which is faster than probably 80+% of heroes (average is 300 i think). The difference isn't huge but it's there. The ability to go magic immune also helps with being kited, as does his 70% slow on open wounds.
That said, mobility remains a big issue for naix which is why phase + drums was so big for a long time (burst mobility in fights), and why racecar is still good (phase + SnY, drums optional).
Don't forget, theres really 2 parts to "mobility". 1) Getting into the fight. For lifestealer this is his ult. 2) Getting to hit people. For lifestealer this is often open wounds but also either basher/abyssal or move-speed increases are very important here.
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pretty sure naix one of the fastest heroes in the game and with rage/open wounds theres really no reason to get kited unless they have something like sd/bm/veno to slow/stun you during rage and your team doesnt have any lockdown.
see sven gets kited lol. naix not so much. still a beast in pubs since nobody really picks to counter things even at high levels (well doom being the exception cuz he gets picked alot nowdays and counters everyone)
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Always seems to me like teams either really know how to deal with LS and he feels underwhelming, or teams don't and he just rolls over people. Or the other team is coordinating Naix bomb initiations really well..
Eul's is so good vs. LS though, dispels OW and gives you MS to kite him.
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I usually build phase, drums, armlet, ac, basher, abyssal and it usually feels quite powerful and flows pretty well, but sometimes I seem to have trouble getting my hyperstone or finishing off the AC, even if my early game has gone really well. I have tried SnY a few times before, and I don't mind it, but I don't remember it feeling too impactful.
Is it probably best to go SnY or some other item smaller than AC if I don't have the space/time to farm?
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if you dont need the extra movespeed from sny/drums i would just skip those items. it all depends on what enemy heroes you are facing and how the game is going. imo sny is not a good item to get when you cant find space to farm and/or is behind in farm.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On June 14 2014 03:25 Skyro wrote:
Always seems to me like teams either really know how to deal with LS and he feels underwhelming, or teams don't and he just rolls over people. Or the other team is coordinating Naix bomb initiations really well..
Eul's is so good vs. LS though, dispels OW and gives you MS to kite him.
yup, that's why he'll only be a niche pick in pro matches, but will still be able to stomp (some) pubs. he's very figured out at the moment. especially since all you have to do is pick doom and get an initiation item. the hero is useless at that point.
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On June 14 2014 06:12 HighTimeDotA wrote:
if you dont need the extra movespeed from sny/drums i would just skip those items. it all depends on what enemy heroes you are facing and how the game is going. imo sny is not a good item to get when you cant find space to farm and/or is behind in farm.
Thanks for the reply but you're answer doesn't really help, AC has a lot of big parts so it's hard to farm up without space which is why I was thinking SnY since it's made up of smaller parts, but if you think that it's not the best item to go for what would you recommend?
I know I can skip drums but I like the racecar build, it seems to fit my playstyle, I don't really like passively farming on naix, I prefer to start fighting early and as long as fights are going well I don't have trouble progressing past this point, but if they aren't I have to resort to farming and AC just seems to take so long to finish that by the time I get it the game is sometimes too far gone.
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On June 14 2014 15:35 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2014 06:12 HighTimeDotA wrote:
if you dont need the extra movespeed from sny/drums i would just skip those items. it all depends on what enemy heroes you are facing and how the game is going. imo sny is not a good item to get when you cant find space to farm and/or is behind in farm. Thanks for the reply but you're answer doesn't really help, AC has a lot of big parts so it's hard to farm up without space which is why I was thinking SnY since it's made up of smaller parts, but if you think that it's not the best item to go for what would you recommend? I know I can skip drums but I like the racecar build, it seems to fit my playstyle, I don't really like passively farming on naix, I prefer to start fighting early and as long as fights are going well I don't have trouble progressing past this point, but if they aren't I have to resort to farming and AC just seems to take so long to finish that by the time I get it the game is sometimes too far gone.
armlet if you dont need movespeed will give you your midgame / maelstrom is an ok pushing item / blink if you need to blink on a high priority target / shadowblade for pubstomp pickoff style
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theoretically if your team can win from the added push you could go necro3 but thats pretty allin
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On June 14 2014 16:39 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2014 15:35 Myrddraal wrote:On June 14 2014 06:12 HighTimeDotA wrote:
if you dont need the extra movespeed from sny/drums i would just skip those items. it all depends on what enemy heroes you are facing and how the game is going. imo sny is not a good item to get when you cant find space to farm and/or is behind in farm. Thanks for the reply but you're answer doesn't really help, AC has a lot of big parts so it's hard to farm up without space which is why I was thinking SnY since it's made up of smaller parts, but if you think that it's not the best item to go for what would you recommend? I know I can skip drums but I like the racecar build, it seems to fit my playstyle, I don't really like passively farming on naix, I prefer to start fighting early and as long as fights are going well I don't have trouble progressing past this point, but if they aren't I have to resort to farming and AC just seems to take so long to finish that by the time I get it the game is sometimes too far gone. armlet if you dont need movespeed will give you your midgame / maelstrom is an ok pushing item / blink if you need to blink on a high priority target / shadowblade for pubstomp pickoff style
Okay cheers, I'll try maelstrom next time, for some reason I used to almost always choose AC over Mjollnir in most situations, but lately I have been mixing it up a bit more and have been quite liking it, of course just as I start to like it they nerf it haha.
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i havnt played naix after the mega mjollnir buffs, does rage dispell the active?
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dota2wiki says static charge can be placed on magic immune allies, it doesn't say it doesn't dispel, but you can rage-staticcharge for sure
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thx rolled this as my daily gonna play when i get off work. gonna try a derpy build with sange/reaver + fs/blink + mjollnir (ofcourse not in that progression).
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How do you skill this hero in the safelane as opposed to jungle?
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On July 06 2014 05:15 Fencar wrote:
How do you skill this hero in the safelane as opposed to jungle?
2-1-2 or 3-1-1 depending on the lane, sometimes that range upgrade on your Open Wounds is really needed. Usually you want to max Rage as soon as possible and after that you start maxing Feast, skill Infest whenever you can obviously.
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On July 06 2014 05:15 Fencar wrote:
How do you skill this hero in the safelane as opposed to jungle?
Its really going to depend on your playstyle and your laning partners. If you have opportunity to be aggressive then the extra range on open wounds is going to be really strong. If you are more on the back foot or they have a lot of nuke damage maxing rage is going to benefit you more. In lane youre rarely going to need more than 1 level in feast and youre going to want to have a point in each of his skills before long. You just need to feel out the lane because its flexible.
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How to ULTIMATE RAT with Lifestealer
Step 1: Farm Phase Boots and Assault Cuirass in addition to your midgame items
Step 2: One or more teammates buys Boots of Travel and Necronomicon
Step 3: Activate Phase and Infest one of your lane creeps.
Step 4: Move it to the opponent's base via their jungle, rather than through a lane
Step 5: Teammate(s) BoT to the infested creep.
Step 6: Consume the infested creep
Result: Your team has multiple heroes inside their base, with backdoor protection disabled, with basically no advance warning compared to pushing a creep wave.
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On December 31 2014 08:01 Buckyman wrote:
Infest one of your lane creeps.
Move it to the opponent's base via their jungle, rather than through a lane
Teammate(s) BoT to the infested creep.
Consume the infested creep
Basically like playing Chen and Tinker but less freedom than Chen or with a Helm of the Dominator. Neat little niche tactic and good to put on a core hero for global ganks but I wouldn't hold my breath to use it for ratting.
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Chen/HotD can't disable backdoor protection*. This is the main benefit of Lifestealer instead; you can 'push' tier 3 towers without showing yourself anywhere near a creep wave.
*unless an enemy steals a lane creep and you steal it back.
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Alright now I get it. My apologies. That's definitely going to be patched definitely if it catches on, don't think that should be intended at all!
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SoCal8910 Posts
i was curious about a situation i was in earlier today...i really wanted an ac but the huskar on my team purchased one..what can i do for armor in that scenario? they had a tiny and wk and i was getting right clicked for a ton
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butterfly or heavens halberd
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SoCal8910 Posts
so opt for evasion? what happens when they get mkb? go heart and raw hp?
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In theory you can get Satanic or Abyssal and use the active to just win the melee right click contest. But I don't see Satanic often at all.
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SoCal8910 Posts
ill consider that in the future too after my dmg items are up and running
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Have the changes to infest(6.83) been successfully used so far?
I was curious and found out that works in infest. When not controlling your host creep, radiance will actually still damage it if it was hostile before. Once you mindcontrol your host creep, positive auras like mekansm and assault cuirass apply.
Weirdly, shiva's guard aura doesn't seem to apply to enemies in range, which I think must be a bug.
Theoretically one could play a chen like role with these new lifestealer changes after lvl 6.
At this point this sounds like a big gimmick to me, but maybe it can be improved to the point that it is actually viable. Concerning auras, radiance and assault cuirass are probably too expensive to be gotten for the sole privilege of being utilised from inside a creep.
I also like that the host creep gains Lifestealers own movement speed after mind control has been activated, including sange & yasha.
Another thing I wonder about is if boots of travel will become more popular, since you can now use a centaur khan with your regular movespeed to get into the fight. Likewise you can't use the phase boots active to accelerate your host creep, so overall BoT are fastest boots for your host creeps.
You know, when your teammates don't want to initiate with a naixbomb.
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Control is mostly a gimmick.
It has like 4 uses, and is trash outside that.
Use 1: Popping techies mines.
You run around in a creep and run over red mines, ezy mine clear.
Use 2: Stopping pre-emptive rages.
What used to happen is that you run at someone, and they would stun you. So what would happen is that you would have to rage like 2/3 seconds before you got to them, just so they can't stun you. Now you run at them in a centaur, and you pop out when your close, and you can rage instantly. The means you can get a few seconds more out of rage.
Use 3: Putting blinks on cooldown.
If you run at someone, they would sometimes just blink away. If you run at someone in a creep, you can pop out and do damage in a 700 aoe. This allows you to cooldown blinks from 700 units away. Of course, then you probably still have to rage early.
Use 4: Running away
Sometimes control can be handy when running away. Especially in a hectic fight, control an ally's treant and he doesn't have to micro for you.
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S&Y is super good on this hero, i wouldn't skip it unless you have a super good infest combo. Deso is kinda meh, i think both basher and maelstrom are better options as they offer more utility (lockdown and aoe/farm speed respectively) and can be upgraded into items that are more powerful than deso lategame.
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Maybe I'm stupid for even considering it but with the changes to Feast and BF building out of Quelling is BF rush on Naix going to be a thing? I kinda wanna try it when the patch hits but skeptical that it'd be better than standard armlet stuff.
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Just because a big item builds from a small useful item doesn't mean that you have to upgrade it.
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On May 01 2015 02:21 DucK- wrote:
Just because a big item builds from a small useful item doesn't mean that you have to upgrade it.
Yeah was just considering if it'd be good since Feast can cleave and it'll give you 60% quelling damage. The problem though is that armlet exists and not only is armlet significantly cheaper you probably won't see much quicker farm speed from BF over armlet. Especially since you have constant +10 AS on armlet and armlet will be better in early skirmishes.
Still might try it but I doubt BF first would be better than armlet first. And I don't think BF would be very good at all if you aren't getting it as your first major item.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
The only thing the feast cleave thing is good at is magnus-naix combo against tanky hero + few less tanky heroes.
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I've tried to play some games as this guy recently and it just seems like he's terrible. I need a decent amount of gold to get kills reliably, but I have this fear that if I spend too much time farming I'll fall behind the inevitable PA/hard carry who's probably slaughtering my team's offlaner while I'm whacking lane creeps. Abusing the infest ancient thing also doesn't seem that good, I mean they're super tanky but their damage is uninspiring and they're not particularly fast. What am I missing?
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On October 21 2015 01:14 RuiBarbO wrote:
I've tried to play some games as this guy recently and it just seems like he's terrible. I need a decent amount of gold to get kills reliably, but I have this fear that if I spend too much time farming I'll fall behind the inevitable PA/hard carry who's probably slaughtering my team's offlaner while I'm whacking lane creeps. Abusing the infest ancient thing also doesn't seem that good, I mean they're super tanky but their damage is uninspiring and they're not particularly fast. What am I missing?
he was top pick between ti2-ti3 then he got nerfed too much
ure not missing much
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On October 21 2015 01:14 RuiBarbO wrote:
I've tried to play some games as this guy recently and it just seems like he's terrible. I need a decent amount of gold to get kills reliably, but I have this fear that if I spend too much time farming I'll fall behind the inevitable PA/hard carry who's probably slaughtering my team's offlaner while I'm whacking lane creeps. Abusing the infest ancient thing also doesn't seem that good, I mean they're super tanky but their damage is uninspiring and they're not particularly fast. What am I missing?
Well PA specifically counters this hero so no surprise.
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On October 21 2015 01:14 RuiBarbO wrote:
I've tried to play some games as this guy recently and it just seems like he's terrible. I need a decent amount of gold to get kills reliably, but I have this fear that if I spend too much time farming I'll fall behind the inevitable PA/hard carry who's probably slaughtering my team's offlaner while I'm whacking lane creeps. Abusing the infest ancient thing also doesn't seem that good, I mean they're super tanky but their damage is uninspiring and they're not particularly fast. What am I missing?
this is what you're missing:
+ Show Spoiler +
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Recently Team Liquid seem to be using the ancient-infesting Lifestealer pretty heavily. But from watching some of their games it seems to me that this strategy has some serious drawbacks, especially when playing from behind. Ancients, for all their tankiness, have quite unsatisfying DPS, and seeing TL having their Lifestealer farm while in an ancient (non-black dragon) seems like a horrible waste of time and farm potential. What do you think?
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What's the timing window for ancients? I'm not convinced that anything other than black dragon is useful, unless you have a dark seer or just need a meat tank for your push.
I'm not convinced that spending 5k on radiance is the way to go. I think its window of effectiveness is too short, and you're better off with normal items (or my shadowblade style ^^).
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Going all in with your build for the ancient gimmick seems pretty silly to me. I don't think the idea of jungling the Naix and using the ancients is necessarily bad. Typically if you run a "carry" in the jungle it takes quite a while for them to really contribute to the game. But Naix essentially hits 6, hops into an ancient and you can for example push towers with the Naix frontlining and being really annoying. You also have at least 1 alternative carry in the team, so Naix being a bit kited in fights later on is not as big of an issue. But I don't really see why you would go for radiance at that point. At least in the games I saw Kuro was very high on the net worth charts early on, he could have just played somewhat standard after using the ancients to his advantage early.
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I think this hero needs a rework with his ulti.This hero's greatest issue revolves around being kited like a dog with no lockdown. I think what they can do is make a passive ulti for him such that it improves his first second and third skill, like adding a ministun to open wounds, giving him more lifesteal with feast, and a longer duration for rage. With SnY drums phase armlet this hero is a monster for like 15 to 25 mins. A scaling ulti will make him a better hero I suppose. Currently the dumb radiance build seems to be the wtg though 
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Just read the lore, by far one of the better ones in the game.
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On January 22 2016 18:51 spudde123 wrote:
Going all in with your build for the ancient gimmick seems pretty silly to me. I don't think the idea of jungling the Naix and using the ancients is necessarily bad. Typically if you run a "carry" in the jungle it takes quite a while for them to really contribute to the game. But Naix essentially hits 6, hops into an ancient and you can for example push towers with the Naix frontlining and being really annoying. You also have at least 1 alternative carry in the team, so Naix being a bit kited in fights later on is not as big of an issue. But I don't really see why you would go for radiance at that point. At least in the games I saw Kuro was very high on the net worth charts early on, he could have just played somewhat standard after using the ancients to his advantage early.
Dunno, you are pretty all-in with Naix in most situations anyways. If you have another pos 1 carry then Naix just steals farm from him and the pos2, while not necessarily scaling better with it.
I think radiance is what the build is all about, the goal with the build seems to trade a sup for an early midgame teamfight radiance. Essentially a super tanky bear.
On October 21 2015 02:00 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 01:14 RuiBarbO wrote:
I've tried to play some games as this guy recently and it just seems like he's terrible. I need a decent amount of gold to get kills reliably, but I have this fear that if I spend too much time farming I'll fall behind the inevitable PA/hard carry who's probably slaughtering my team's offlaner while I'm whacking lane creeps. Abusing the infest ancient thing also doesn't seem that good, I mean they're super tanky but their damage is uninspiring and they're not particularly fast. What am I missing? this is what you're missing: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFlHvTwM30g
That's pretty cool, some people are really creative with the tools they get.
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On October 21 2015 01:20 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 01:14 RuiBarbO wrote:
I've tried to play some games as this guy recently and it just seems like he's terrible. I need a decent amount of gold to get kills reliably, but I have this fear that if I spend too much time farming I'll fall behind the inevitable PA/hard carry who's probably slaughtering my team's offlaner while I'm whacking lane creeps. Abusing the infest ancient thing also doesn't seem that good, I mean they're super tanky but their damage is uninspiring and they're not particularly fast. What am I missing? he was top pick between ti2-ti3 then he got nerfed too much ure not missing much
The hardest nerf was Open Wounds range decrease. Naix always had problems against kiting but range nerf on OW ruined his laning phase. (Actually not only laning phase. He have to get so close his enemies till level 9)
I think he is in a rought spot to be properly balanced. He has a god damn free bkb! (On 10 second cooldown!) If Frog somewhat buffes his early game he will snowball like mad. If Frog buffes his late game he may turn to a beast.
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I'm trying to play a better carry Lifestealer. But I can't seem to understand how some pro players reach Armlet in about 10 minutes consistently
I feel without Armlet reaching at (approx. 10 minutes), everything else is severely delayed and I miss my timing.
Right now, my farming method is nothing unusual; last-hit in lane, when it is pushed -> go farm the jungle camps nearby, then come back.
But I still am exceedingly slow for some reason.
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what are you building before armlet? phase qb armlet timing is more or less around 9-10 mins given complete free farm.
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On May 18 2016 17:41 Kaj wrote:
what are you building before armlet? phase qb armlet timing is more or less around 9-10 mins given complete free farm.
I open Boots, Faerie Fire, two branches (maybe) and maybe tango if I knew the lane will be trouble.
Then I go Boots -> QB -> Phase
and then maybe blightstone.
I just played a game where I got Armlet, but I had to get two kills (and die once) to get it. That's not always achievable for me.
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On May 18 2016 18:40 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2016 17:41 Kaj wrote:
what are you building before armlet? phase qb armlet timing is more or less around 9-10 mins given complete free farm. I open Boots, Faerie Fire, two branches (maybe) and maybe tango if I knew the lane will be trouble. Then I go Boots -> QB -> Phase and then maybe blightstone. I just played a game where I got Armlet, but I had to get two kills (and die once) to get it. That's not always achievable for me.
I don't think opening boots is correct every game. You have no kill potential until level 2 (usually), so I prefer stout qb tangos and not missing a lh at all so you can buy a fast boots at the sideshop. Skip stout for orb of venom if the offlane is like a BB or NP or some shit. But if you go boots first and miss lh/not kill the offlane in the first two minutes, you spent 400 gold on nothing.
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Sorry.
I don't go with Boots first, I get that after, I mistyped.
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If you don't miss CS you should be getting it at 8-9 mins no problem even without kills
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On May 19 2016 01:58 Skank wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2016 18:40 Torte de Lini wrote:On May 18 2016 17:41 Kaj wrote:
what are you building before armlet? phase qb armlet timing is more or less around 9-10 mins given complete free farm. I open Boots, Faerie Fire, two branches (maybe) and maybe tango if I knew the lane will be trouble. Then I go Boots -> QB -> Phase and then maybe blightstone. I just played a game where I got Armlet, but I had to get two kills (and die once) to get it. That's not always achievable for me. I don't think opening boots is correct every game. You have no kill potential until level 2 (usually), so I prefer stout qb tangos and not missing a lh at all so you can buy a fast boots at the sideshop. Skip stout for orb of venom if the offlane is like a BB or NP or some shit. But if you go boots first and miss lh/not kill the offlane in the first two minutes, you spent 400 gold on nothing.
Wait isn't stout really good vs BB / NP?
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On May 23 2016 04:18 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2016 01:58 Skank wrote:On May 18 2016 18:40 Torte de Lini wrote:On May 18 2016 17:41 Kaj wrote:
what are you building before armlet? phase qb armlet timing is more or less around 9-10 mins given complete free farm. I open Boots, Faerie Fire, two branches (maybe) and maybe tango if I knew the lane will be trouble. Then I go Boots -> QB -> Phase and then maybe blightstone. I just played a game where I got Armlet, but I had to get two kills (and die once) to get it. That's not always achievable for me. I don't think opening boots is correct every game. You have no kill potential until level 2 (usually), so I prefer stout qb tangos and not missing a lh at all so you can buy a fast boots at the sideshop. Skip stout for orb of venom if the offlane is like a BB or NP or some shit. But if you go boots first and miss lh/not kill the offlane in the first two minutes, you spent 400 gold on nothing. Wait isn't stout really good vs BB / NP?
Id only skip stout if the lane is going to be complete free farm, there's high kill potential, or i'm laning against someone who'd trade last hits passively.
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On May 23 2016 04:18 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2016 01:58 Skank wrote:On May 18 2016 18:40 Torte de Lini wrote:On May 18 2016 17:41 Kaj wrote:
what are you building before armlet? phase qb armlet timing is more or less around 9-10 mins given complete free farm. I open Boots, Faerie Fire, two branches (maybe) and maybe tango if I knew the lane will be trouble. Then I go Boots -> QB -> Phase and then maybe blightstone. I just played a game where I got Armlet, but I had to get two kills (and die once) to get it. That's not always achievable for me. I don't think opening boots is correct every game. You have no kill potential until level 2 (usually), so I prefer stout qb tangos and not missing a lh at all so you can buy a fast boots at the sideshop. Skip stout for orb of venom if the offlane is like a BB or NP or some shit. But if you go boots first and miss lh/not kill the offlane in the first two minutes, you spent 400 gold on nothing. Wait isn't stout really good vs BB / NP?
Yea skipping stout is a really bad idea vs NP. You'll just eat harass left and right between autos and treant right clicks if you get near the creeps, especially if your support is bad and doesn't know how to zone properly.
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On May 25 2016 12:52 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2016 04:18 clickrush wrote:On May 19 2016 01:58 Skank wrote:On May 18 2016 18:40 Torte de Lini wrote:On May 18 2016 17:41 Kaj wrote:
what are you building before armlet? phase qb armlet timing is more or less around 9-10 mins given complete free farm. I open Boots, Faerie Fire, two branches (maybe) and maybe tango if I knew the lane will be trouble. Then I go Boots -> QB -> Phase and then maybe blightstone. I just played a game where I got Armlet, but I had to get two kills (and die once) to get it. That's not always achievable for me. I don't think opening boots is correct every game. You have no kill potential until level 2 (usually), so I prefer stout qb tangos and not missing a lh at all so you can buy a fast boots at the sideshop. Skip stout for orb of venom if the offlane is like a BB or NP or some shit. But if you go boots first and miss lh/not kill the offlane in the first two minutes, you spent 400 gold on nothing. Wait isn't stout really good vs BB / NP? Yea skipping stout is a really bad idea vs NP. You'll just eat harass left and right between autos and treant right clicks if you get near the creeps, especially if your support is bad and doesn't know how to zone properly.
It's potentially good vs BB though since it does nothing vs Quill Spray. I have no idea why the two heroes were grouped together.
I don't know why vs BB you'd opt for Orb of Venom though. Seems like you'd just get a stick.
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SoCal8910 Posts
you don't want the bristleback in lane at all because otherwise you're just gonna be eating quill sprays to the point where your stick isn't going to save you. instead of eating quill sprays, chase him out of lane. he cant man up to you, so if you go in early enough, you can get a kill and scare him off of the creep wave
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On May 26 2016 02:49 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 12:52 superstartran wrote:On May 23 2016 04:18 clickrush wrote:On May 19 2016 01:58 Skank wrote:On May 18 2016 18:40 Torte de Lini wrote:On May 18 2016 17:41 Kaj wrote:
what are you building before armlet? phase qb armlet timing is more or less around 9-10 mins given complete free farm. I open Boots, Faerie Fire, two branches (maybe) and maybe tango if I knew the lane will be trouble. Then I go Boots -> QB -> Phase and then maybe blightstone. I just played a game where I got Armlet, but I had to get two kills (and die once) to get it. That's not always achievable for me. I don't think opening boots is correct every game. You have no kill potential until level 2 (usually), so I prefer stout qb tangos and not missing a lh at all so you can buy a fast boots at the sideshop. Skip stout for orb of venom if the offlane is like a BB or NP or some shit. But if you go boots first and miss lh/not kill the offlane in the first two minutes, you spent 400 gold on nothing. Wait isn't stout really good vs BB / NP? Yea skipping stout is a really bad idea vs NP. You'll just eat harass left and right between autos and treant right clicks if you get near the creeps, especially if your support is bad and doesn't know how to zone properly. It's potentially good vs BB though since it does nothing vs Quill Spray. I have no idea why the two heroes were grouped together. I don't know why vs BB you'd opt for Orb of Venom though. Seems like you'd just get a stick.
Wait a minute I was pretty sure quill spray gets blocked by stout shield. Did they change that?
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On May 27 2016 14:23 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2016 02:49 Logo wrote:On May 25 2016 12:52 superstartran wrote:On May 23 2016 04:18 clickrush wrote:On May 19 2016 01:58 Skank wrote:On May 18 2016 18:40 Torte de Lini wrote:On May 18 2016 17:41 Kaj wrote:
what are you building before armlet? phase qb armlet timing is more or less around 9-10 mins given complete free farm. I open Boots, Faerie Fire, two branches (maybe) and maybe tango if I knew the lane will be trouble. Then I go Boots -> QB -> Phase and then maybe blightstone. I just played a game where I got Armlet, but I had to get two kills (and die once) to get it. That's not always achievable for me. I don't think opening boots is correct every game. You have no kill potential until level 2 (usually), so I prefer stout qb tangos and not missing a lh at all so you can buy a fast boots at the sideshop. Skip stout for orb of venom if the offlane is like a BB or NP or some shit. But if you go boots first and miss lh/not kill the offlane in the first two minutes, you spent 400 gold on nothing. Wait isn't stout really good vs BB / NP? Yea skipping stout is a really bad idea vs NP. You'll just eat harass left and right between autos and treant right clicks if you get near the creeps, especially if your support is bad and doesn't know how to zone properly. It's potentially good vs BB though since it does nothing vs Quill Spray. I have no idea why the two heroes were grouped together. I don't know why vs BB you'd opt for Orb of Venom though. Seems like you'd just get a stick. Wait a minute I was pretty sure quill spray gets blocked by stout shield. Did they change that?
ya they changed damage block to not work with spells that do physical dmg
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![[image loading]](http://puu.sh/pcweA/724ac1c59c.png)
This hero is balanced im sure, at this rate 7k should be no problem
Phase armlet echo deso daedalus for free mmr
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Why do people get echo on this hero
honestly it makes no sense to me
someone explain the logic.
str and damage, ya ok great but you get that in a sange. Int and mana regen? okay...but its a $2650 item. .6 second slow...when you have open wounds and its a .6 second slow. attack speed...when you have rage and no major procs you need to desire.
Like...i'd just rather have 60% of a S&Y. Doesn't seem worth a 2650 gold item
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Well Echo Sabre does solve any mana issues the hero might have while providing more damage, attack speed and burst dmg then a Sange. I think that last part is pretty important, helps you kill supports during Rage. It's 600 more expensive of course, but unless your going for a full S&Y I don't really see the point of getting a Sange.
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On June 02 2016 22:58 Comeh wrote:
Why do people get echo on this hero
honestly it makes no sense to me
someone explain the logic.
str and damage, ya ok great but you get that in a sange. Int and mana regen? okay...but its a $2650 item. .6 second slow...when you have open wounds and its a .6 second slow. attack speed...when you have rage and no major procs you need to desire.
Like...i'd just rather have 60% of a S&Y. Doesn't seem worth a 2650 gold item
While it is true that you have an attack speed steroid, you also have a damage one (feast) and if you build into desolator you have another damage source. Ah and you also have phase. So yeah the damage that item gives is insane and also works very well with daedalus to 2 shot people.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
im with comeh here, sabre is a waste of gold and a slot
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On June 02 2016 23:53 Gotuso wrote:
Well Echo Sabre does solve any mana issues the hero might have while providing more damage, attack speed and burst dmg then a Sange. I think that last part is pretty important, helps you kill supports during Rage. It's 600 more expensive of course, but unless your going for a full S&Y I don't really see the point of getting a Sange.
It gives one hit every 5 seconds, which equates to like 20 AS, and LS already has a lot of AS from rage and armlet, but the whole implication is that of course you'll be going S&Y. Movement speed is the most valuable statistic on this hero, especially considering how kiteable he is. My argument is i'd rather have a S&Y 3 mins later than an echo saber right now...
maybe its a timing thing. That's the only argument i've found persuasive is that the timing of an echo saber + phase + armlet is more valuable than phase + armlet + S&Y 2-3 mins later, even though the latter will be more valuable throughout the game. The impact if having that earlier item will make the game more winnable then having a more superior build. Hard to say, i'd have to play with it, but my gut says its bullshit.
beesa convince me otherwise please.
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On June 03 2016 00:40 Comeh wrote:
It gives one hit every 5 seconds, which equates to like 20 AS, and LS already has a lot of AS from rage and armlet, but the whole implication is that of course you'll be going S&Y. Movement speed is the most valuable statistic on this hero, especially considering how kiteable he is.
looking at it as one hit every 5 seconds is a common trap many people fall into when evaluating the item. how often do you actually get to hit one hero for 5 seconds uninterrupted?
the correct way to look at it is - how many hits can you usually get on a target before they get a chance to use any kiting skills or whatever?
armlet+echo comes online around 13-15 min, which is usually when one of the initiators on your team get blink or something. how many hits can you normally get in during a infest-crush? infest-call? etc etc.
if you could get in 4 hits on that slark normally in the stun duration, and echo sabre lets you get in one more hit, it is equivalent to giving you a 25% increase in damage when trying to burst people. if you could only have got in 3 hits, it is equivalent to 33% more damage.
building the follow up damage to maintain this burst is important - deso which amplifies feast, and daedalus which also can crit on feast. With these two sources of damage as follow up you ensure that your burst is always sufficient that ghosts/forces/etc will not be able to help people due to just how utterly fast they die.
once your damage threshold exceeds a certain level kiting isnt an issue as they basically die before they can do anything, and start most fights one hero down. blink/force are situational if you don't have infest targets but that is usually not the case.
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lots of people don't actually click on heroes to check their damage potential, or have an accurate guesstimate until they themsleves try out right clicking someone with a right-click hero like lifestealer. that's an experience thing, if you're really into it, you can do the real-time mathing during game and have good understanding of situations, or a better understanding of what items fit during that timeline.
by saying that i'm not addressing the echo sabre item on LS, but rather that when ganking or doing engagements most people just associate certain heroes with small or large health pools/low or high armor, and feel it from there--all relative to where and how fast your item progression has been.
then, you further itemize. we had a 6k player in this thread who clearly shows that he gets away with it just fine. he itemizes further damage and takes advantage of it. you could try and ask him why he prefers it over other options yourself.
however, you don't need somebody to convince you, just play with it and see how it feels.
anyway
here's some basic situational stuff just to throw it out there.
-sometimes you do not immediately open wounds a target that you're on. they can manta or dispel it off immediately and you're stuck hoping for sange procs while you chase. i mean at least the echo sabre is a guaranteed slow.
-so as you say there's a kiting issue and you've got limited number of attacks per fight. i am sure some people build echo sabre for that reason whether as a snowball item or not. double feast/open wounds heal off of double armlet hit with minus armor or crit is and can be insanity value.
-sometimes you only need those first three or four hits to get that initial kill. it leaves you with different options like S&Y would. maybe you don't have to rage at the start, maybe you don't open wounds. maybe sometimes we're not thinking about making use of the ability 5 seconds down the line, but that the first hits increase your chances of doing something you wouldn't normally have, like again, not having to blow your entire load (spells).
i mean hello, mr.S&Y (Era) built manta on lifestealer, with nothing to dispel.
no need to think it's bullshit. it's just a solid option that may not be for the way you play LS.
edit: alright i did not refresh for zenotha's newest post before composing mine. lol.
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im just gonna say everytime i get echo sabre i do considerably worse than when i get sny and lose
for fighting build armlet midas sny deso is rly solid
against svens and maybe dks u wud want mjollnir/mkb instead of deso for more dmg
i wud like to try treads over phase like i used to but i dont think it wud make much of a difference
also ure strong enough early with just armlet, so i just get midas to make sure ill get everything else fast enough to start 2-3 shotting supports
ac/deso feels too important to have coz its how u end the game thru rosh and buildings...
getting too many mid game items usually traps u
thing is sny vs echo doesnt make too much of a difference in like < 7.5k pubs coz lifestealer is broken anyway
but in scrims/officials/high avg mmr games you start feeling the difference
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EPT
