EPTit is obvious that you are doing more damage if you are both lvl 6, for example, than lvl 5 vs lvl 6
is it a percentage thing?
Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 323
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mRpolite
189 Posts
it is obvious that you are doing more damage if you are both lvl 6, for example, than lvl 5 vs lvl 6 is it a percentage thing? | ||
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mRpolite
189 Posts
manta + s&y = you only get the better one | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
You have 3 carries with pretty strong midgame teamfight potential, but hugely lacking in disables. You need two supports that have powerful teamfight disables (Shaker, Jak, Rubick, etc.) to set up your QoP/Tinker/Gyro's damage. Undying doesn't do anything that you actually want. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
sleep them, kotl blast + gyro rocket, missile barrage for the finish | ||
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dgsdm
198 Posts
On February 04 2013 20:11 Sephyr wrote: It can't be called an offensive trilane if they have no killing potential and lack the ability to effective harass. Choosing Tree as a counter for PL was a huge waste of a pick. He doesn't really scale well with items and is even worse without items. I'm also guessing you ran him as 4-5. If you wanted to "counter-pick" PL, a hero like Sven is amazing. That cleave quickly gets rid of images and it barely relies on mana once the initial Ulti + Warcry + Stun is set off. A soul ring can fix any other mana problems after that. Most of the other problems have been said already though. WR > Tinker unless Tinker goes Missle/Rocket and ganks with it but then that'd be awkward because your trilane has no stuns it'd be fairly hard to catch Brew out unless he got caught out with a QoP slow. But ditching bot lane just for a kill on Brew isn't worth it since WR will farm twice what Brew lost. QoP would've dominated (for the most part) mid lane, but wouldn't have been anywhere near enough to turn the tide of the game. An SD would've boosted your trilane rating from a 3 to probably a 5-6. If played right, Gyro missile can land as the Disruption finishes along with Soul Catcher for 100% kills on the KoTL if caught out of pos which is possible with disruption. It would also allow SD to contest Lesh for the pulls without being out harassed too much. If anything tree doesn't need any items to be effective if you ask me, most people I've seen don't know how to play tree right. And with their lineup I was pretty sure they were sending their trilane bottom direside. Why else would you have KOTL, Lesh, PL. Thats some funky ass defensive trilane. But I did corner myself in a way because undying was the awkward pick. I didn't want KOTL undying laning together. I honestly wish I couldve seen how this would've played out. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
kotl undying + x makes a pretty strong trilane edit: lesh kotl pl is not that strong of a trilane but your trilane is a lot weaker also tinker gets wrecked by wr on a sidelane | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 04 2013 21:07 dgsdm wrote: If anything tree doesn't need any items to be effective if you ask me, most people I've seen don't know how to play tree right. Tree needs levels, though. He's dependent on his ulti, and other than his invis, his 2 other regular skills are garbage on low ranks. On February 04 2013 21:07 dgsdm wrote: Thats some funky ass defensive trilane. Not really. PL freefarm is worth more than whatever you're going to freefarm on your safe lane. Lesh gets a lot out of having early levels from being allowed to creep pull, and KotL in safe lane jungle gets levels/gold really fast from being able to Illuminate hard camp stacks. An aggressive tri gives up all of that. Generally if you're going to aggressive tri, you're going to do so with an express reason to do so. Not just "these heroes seem good for an aggressive tri". | ||
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Sephyr
Australia665 Posts
On February 04 2013 20:11 mRpolite wrote: how much of an advantage you have (damage wise) when you are 1 lvl ahead? it is obvious that you are doing more damage if you are both lvl 6, for example, than lvl 5 vs lvl 6 is it a percentage thing? Every hero is different. If you're purely talking about damage then it's solely dependent on match-up. Every hero has their own unique stats etc therefore no two heroes are the same. If you include spells then the huge difference between level 5 and level 6 would defs be the ultimate. Usually if you're playing mid and you're level 6 whilst the enemy is level 5 and they're pushing in, it's almost always a free kill depending on how you/he plays it out. But if you're talking about level 4 and level 5 then again like I said, it's dependent on match up. On February 04 2013 21:07 dgsdm wrote: If anything tree doesn't need any items to be effective if you ask me, most people I've seen don't know how to play tree right. And with their lineup I was pretty sure they were sending their trilane bottom direside. Why else would you have KOTL, Lesh, PL. Thats some funky ass defensive trilane. But I did corner myself in a way because undying was the awkward pick. I didn't want KOTL undying laning together. I honestly wish I couldve seen how this would've played out. Well yeah, it's not really item dependent but on the contrary like Yango said, it's level dependent; and you put him in a lane where he'd get levels the slowest. If you knew that then why did you do it? That's a crucial mistake as a Captain. I'm not taking this as personal offence but play Tree? You could be the best Tree player and that still wouldn't make the lane any stronger than it currently is. It also doesn't matter where they send their trilane, because anywhere they place it, it would've completely dominated it. Undying wasn't the awkward pick o.O, Tree was. How don't you see that? e; If you want some ideas of an aggressive trilane then some good ones are CK + Lesh + SD with SD initiating with disruption/soul catcher and Lesh timing a stun with CK rifting the hero back to him. Basically free kills 95% of the time. If you want 100% free kills then CK can waste his mana on a stun but it severely limits the amount of times you can initate that combo. Another good aggressive trilane is SD, Lesh (or Kunkka) (any carry, or support if Kunkka is chosen) with Invoker mid and a timed sunstrike on the disrupted target etc. There are many, manyyyyyy formations of aggressive trilanes. You just need to keep in mind what type of strat you want. Complete lane dominance with aggressive trilanes and good solo lanes, a meh early game but insane mid-game wombo combos, or a 4+1 strat for late game. (Obviously there are more team strats etc) When it comes to choosing heroes for lanes, you MUST think about synergy. | ||
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dgsdm
198 Posts
On February 04 2013 21:35 Sephyr wrote: Well yeah, it's not really item dependent but on the contrary like Yango said, it's level dependent; and you put him in a lane where he'd get levels the slowest. If you knew that then why did you do it? That's a crucial mistake as a Captain. I'm not taking this as personal offence but play Tree? You could be the best Tree player and that still wouldn't make the lane any stronger than it currently is. It also doesn't matter where they send their trilane, because anywhere they place it, it would've completely dominated it. Undying wasn't the awkward pick o.O, Tree was. How don't you see that? e; If you want some ideas of an aggressive trilane then some good ones are CK + Lesh + SD with SD initiating with disruption/soul catcher and Lesh timing a stun with CK rifting the hero back to him. Basically free kills 95% of the time. If you want 100% free kills then CK can waste his mana on a stun but it severely limits the amount of times you can initate that combo. Another good aggressive trilane is SD, Lesh (or Kunkka) (any carry, or support if Kunkka is chosen) with Invoker mid and a timed sunstrike on the disrupted target etc. There are many, manyyyyyy formations of aggressive trilanes. You just need to keep in mind what type of strat you want. Complete lane dominance with aggressive trilanes and good solo lanes, a meh early game but insane mid-game wombo combos, or a 4+1 strat for late game. (Obviously there are more team strats etc) When it comes to choosing heroes for lanes, you MUST think about synergy. These are fair points you bring up, thanks. Also does WR absolute dominate tinker 1v1? If tinker gets an early soul ring I think he can hold his own 1v1. | ||
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1179 Posts
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Arcadia92
135 Posts
On February 04 2013 22:08 dgsdm wrote: These are fair points you bring up, thanks. Also does WR absolute dominate tinker 1v1? If tinker gets an early soul ring I think he can hold his own 1v1. If its side lane, WR has the obvious advantage in lane. In your game Tinker should mid since Tinker > Brew and QoP > WR. Next time you want to go offensive tri-lane, don't pick heroes with no notable slow/stun/nuke like Treant and for safe measure ban out KotL. | ||
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Sephyr
Australia665 Posts
On February 04 2013 22:08 dgsdm wrote: These are fair points you bring up, thanks. Also does WR absolute dominate tinker 1v1? If tinker gets an early soul ring I think he can hold his own 1v1. It depends on a few things. Let's pretend both players are equal in skill. WR/Tinker have about the same damage if I remember correctly but WR's auto attack speed and animation are both better than Tinkers, thus giving WR the edge in last hits early on to get the quick bottle for the WR. Once WR gets the quick bottle, the lane will almost always be controlled by WR unless Tinker goes March. This evens up the lane control with WR but you lose all form of early gank potential (I wouldn't call one nuke enough to warrant roaming about and ganking.) Even with this, Power Shot is a much better lane nuker than March would ever be early on. Lower mana, high damage, relatively low CD and hurts quite a bit once it hits level 3. You could try and march and laser, but it's by far not worth it. Overall I would say WR would win pretty easily (could even dominate if shackles are landed on a consistent basis). It's usually better to get bottle over soul ring even if off-laning as mid can either get the rune if it spawns on the other side or bottle crow. Soul ring first is better on heroes like Sven/PL/DK because they either have good str gain/passive regen/an extremely good way of utilising soul ring so it's efficient. On February 04 2013 22:34 ZerG~LegenD wrote: What are some good heroes to send into a 1v1 against Lone Druid on your hard lane? Lone Druid is one of the best, if not the best solo off-laner 1v1 hero. Not many, if any, can go toe to toe with LD 1v1 in lane unless accompanied by another hero thus making it 2v1. Heroes like BH do okay because of the cheap WW and easy xp gain, but the bear harass is just a pain in the ass for many 1v1 heroes. Bat would also do okay, especially if the LD's micro is exactly the best. Easy stacks for easy damage on bear meaning he can't send it in recklessly. | ||
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dgsdm
198 Posts
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Sephyr
Australia665 Posts
On February 04 2013 22:45 dgsdm wrote: I see, thanks for the inputs. These are very informative and it's a learning experience for me. Shame that people don't add constructive criticism often enough and just cry, whine, and insult you in-game. That's the general DOTA community for ya. Everyone thinks they know everything and rage when things don't go their way. Ah well! | ||
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Arcadia92
135 Posts
On February 04 2013 22:34 ZerG~LegenD wrote: What are some good heroes to send into a 1v1 against Lone Druid on your hard lane? Off the bat I can think of Enig, Tide, Brood, DS, Weaver. These can actually be kind of a pain in the ass to LD if played properly when LD is pre-5. Once LD hits level 5 he'll get lucky and theres nothing much you can do about it. | ||
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Mosoball
Finland686 Posts
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On February 04 2013 23:06 Mosoball wrote: We have recently ran Tinker with march build mid. The problem our team has noticed is following: Tinker gets good farm but our aggressive trilane, that is usually 2-4 -0 against their defensive one, gets wrecked through the rotations of the opposing mid (QoP, Invoker, etc.). We often even have wards but those don't see tps coming in. Is the key better warding or is this just an inherit weakness of march-tinker? You need to ward behind their tower so you can see people TPing in. If your Tinker also TPs in then they shouldn't be able to fight in a march early on. Does insane damage. | ||
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Sephyr
Australia665 Posts
On February 04 2013 23:06 Mosoball wrote: We have recently ran Tinker with march build mid. The problem our team has noticed is following: Tinker gets good farm but our aggressive trilane, that is usually 2-4 -0 against their defensive one, gets wrecked through the rotations of the opposing mid (QoP, Invoker, etc.). We often even have wards but those don't see tps coming in. Is the key better warding or is this just an inherit weakness of march-tinker? Yep, one ward just behind tower(or in front, depending how what you want) to see TP's coming in and one ward in rune spot to see if his rotating via rune. If he goes through jungle a simple miss call should suffice to not allow him to wreck your aggressive trilane. If you can see the mid rotating via rune/jungle to get a gank on you, have either the whole trilane or the two supports rotate and intercept the incoming mid hero and pick him off quickly and return back to your own tower. Your carry should play safe in the meanwhile to avoid a counter-gank on him. Like I said before in a previous post regarding March Tinker; if you go for it you throw away all early gank potential. | ||
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Mosoball
Finland686 Posts
On February 04 2013 23:31 Sephyr wrote: Yep, one ward just behind tower(or in front, depending how what you want) to see TP's coming in and one ward in rune spot to see if his rotating via rune. If he goes through jungle a simple miss call should suffice to not allow him to wreck your aggressive trilane. If you can see the mid rotating via rune/jungle to get a gank on you, have either the whole trilane or the two supports rotate and intercept the incoming mid hero and pick him off quickly and return back to your own tower. Your carry should play safe in the meanwhile to avoid a counter-gank on him. Like I said before in a previous post regarding March Tinker; if you go for it you throw away all early gank potential. Thanks for the advice. I think we should just time the pushing of the lane with our wards expiring and instantly re-warding; last two games (both us as Dire) this wrecking has happened within 15 seconds of the tower-ward and 30 second of the jungle ward expiring. This might be just bad luck or calculated timing-gank. | ||
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Sephyr
Australia665 Posts
On February 04 2013 23:40 Mosoball wrote: Thanks for the advice. I think we should just time the pushing of the lane with our wards expiring and instantly re-warding; last two games (both us as Dire) this wrecking has happened within 15 seconds of the tower-ward and 30 second of the jungle ward expiring. This might be just bad luck or calculated timing-gank. I would defs think it's more towards the second option because night time comes around that time too. No wards up at 6:30 + night time vision = easy roaming ganks for any mid hero. 6-10 minutes are the times you gotta be the most careful of since most aggressive teams will wanna make the most of their early game advantage during the night, especially dem smoke ganks. | ||
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