I have some questions considering inventory management with supportive heroes. So I have boots, wand, TP, wards, often dust , often a bracer. I'm full. What items should I get as I don't have a really good experience from sharing dust/obs with others players who don't buy it themselves.
Also tp boots wand & bottle on ganker from mid often leads to fast full inventory. So same problem here.
A last question, I spend tons of gold on TP scrolls, often buying two at the same time after death, one to go lane (pay for itself, I consider this tp as free XP) & an other one if I need too. However sometimes it seems I should not have put TP on cooldown even if it seemed safe from minimap. Any tips to choose to TP or walk? But tbh it happens more often when map is not well warded so the problem may not lie there.
There are a lot more tips I'm skipping, but turning the bracer into Drums of Endurance is nice, even if your team already has one (more charges, etc).
Full inventory isn't a bad thing, just start selling items (wand/bottle) once you fill the other slots. Also, you can use the chicken as extra slots for warding (by intelligently swapping items with it etc). Remember, having wards in your inventory isn't helping much, so no need. You can keep them on the courier and bring them to yourself when you wish to use them, if nothing else. Sentries are a bit different, but usually I try to have only 1 item slot taken by wards/detection at a time (obviously this is after 20 mins, once I'm actually looking to free up my slots as a support).
TP'ing to lane is generally considered bad in higher-tier play but in pubs you can usually get away with it. Just be aware of the other team's plan. If they are looking to push or gank other lanes, JUST WALK (especially if you have tranquils). If they are farming up and your team isn't looking to do much either, TP to a free lane is indeed free XP. Obviously its fine to TP to a lane if you guys are looking to achieve something in that lane. TPing to place wards is pretty questionable as well, I'd rather run in, ward, then TP out asap XD.
I have a question about stacking and pulling. I understand why you need to stack before pulling (otherwise the creep camp doesn't kill the entire wave and the lane gets pushed). However, when I end up with alpha wolves in my camp and I stack it, they just destroy the entire wave before even a single one of the creep is dead (even with me autoattacking as much as I can). Last game I had a camp with alpha wolves and centaur and I just couldn't clear it :s. What should I do in this case?
In terms of freeing up item slots, you generally shouldn't have observer wards for a prolonged duration. If you do find yourself holding obs for an extended period of time, this suggests to me that:
a) There are difficulties going to ward spots (in which case you should ask a fellow team mate to accompany you b) Ward coverage hasn't been spot on, and that there are gaps in minimap vision for your team. (This often occurs in pubs, where supports sometimes get obs at 0:00, but neglect it at the more important 6:00 minute mark.)
These are reflections of inexperience that will go away as you play more and keep timers (e.g Checking when obs run out). In terms of carrying detection, it's far more optimal and inventory efficient to carry either sentries OR dust OR gem. Generally, when considering whether to get dust or sentries, you have to consider the nature of the invis heroes invisbility and their ability to remove/run from detection. For example, against Slark, dust is pretty mediocre because he can dark pact it off, so you'd want to carry sentries. Each form of detection has a trade-off, and it's up to your judgment/game evaluation to decide what's most ideal.
Finally, when you buy "luxury" items like bracers/drums/force staff, you should take into account whether it'll be significant enough to help you achieve your goals in a team fight/gank. If you find yourself unable to carry both a bracer and detection then evaluate the worth of each item. Is that detection essential for you to win the teamfight/protect your team, or are you better off by being a little bit tankier on Tidehunter to get a good ravage off?
Inventory is a RESOURCE, and it's good to be utilising it to it's maximum. The question you should be asking when you reach full inventory point is what are the advantages of X item or Y item and which is more important to have.
Finally, I really like you last question as I feel it's one that people put little thought into even at higher skill brackets. The rule of thumb on supports is that you don't want to tp if you don't have to or if there isn't a wider issue to address. For example, I wouldn't tp to farm creeps if they aren't encroaching onto the tower or are quite a distance away. Alternatively, if there's somebody more important farming the lane (1st/2nd/3rd position), there's really no point tp'ing back to jack gold/exp that they need more). Treat these as guideline questions:
1) Is there an objective my team wants to achieve in that location? 2) Is my presence needed to achieve that objective? 3) Can I run there, or is it incredibly urgent that I get there as soon as possible?
Saving your tp scroll cooldown is very important at higher levels of play, as it allows you as a support to pull of counter-ganks and prevent tower dives on your team's key heroes. This is also why teams value towers so much more at higher levels of play than lower levels.
There is no set of clear guidelines to dictate when you should TP to lane or walk. Each situation varies alot, and making the correct decision comes with a lot of dota experience.
On January 09 2013 04:13 Jetaap wrote: I have a question about stacking and pulling. I understand why you need to stack before pulling (otherwise the creep camp doesn't kill the entire wave and the lane gets pushed). However, when I end up with alpha wolves in my camp and I stack it, they just destroy the entire wave before even a single one of the creep is dead (even with me autoattacking as much as I can). Last game I had a camp with alpha wolves and centaur and I just couldn't clear it :s. What should I do in this case?
You shouldn't be auto-attacking the neutral creeps. The main objective of pulling is denying the exp to the opposing laners and (hopefully) getting some extra gold/exp yourself. It's a good thing that your entire creep wave is dying.
Just keep pulling the lane creeps over and eventually the neutral creeps will die.
On January 09 2013 04:13 Jetaap wrote: I have a question about stacking and pulling. I understand why you need to stack before pulling (otherwise the creep camp doesn't kill the entire wave and the lane gets pushed). However, when I end up with alpha wolves in my camp and I stack it, they just destroy the entire wave before even a single one of the creep is dead (even with me autoattacking as much as I can). Last game I had a camp with alpha wolves and centaur and I just couldn't clear it :s. What should I do in this case?
You shouldn't be auto-attacking the neutral creeps. The main objective of pulling is denying the exp to the opposing laners and (hopefully) getting some extra gold/exp yourself. It's a good thing that your entire creep wave is dying.
Just keep pulling the lane creeps over and eventually the neutral creeps will die.
Not really. Half the objective of pulling is to obtain farm as a support without in any way leeching from your carry. The other half is to deny opponents XP.
I don't really want to debate which is more important right now. Either way, it is still fine for you to not kill a single jungle creep with the first pull. Just pull another wave. And another. As mentioned, the neutrals will eventually die and you will get your gold. Don't triple stack if you ever want your creeps to clear it though.
I disagree. XP is far more important in the early game compared to the farm. As long as you generate the bonus exp, missing out on some gold isn't that important.
The thing is, so long as you have reasonable control of your jungle, you can double/triple pull the creep wave to other neutral camps. Autoattacking the wave means the creeps will survive to be double/triple pulled, allowing you to get more XP.
The only time this isn't the case is when you have no control of your own jungle (2v3s or disadvantaged 3v3s).
TBH, if you have enough control of your own jungle to double/triple pull, you don't even need to stack. Stacking is more useful when it's too dangerous for you to pull to the double/triple-pull camps.
Is there a command to set Tab to switch among your units? I want Tab to be the key to switch unit between Lone Druid and my bear like in Heroes of Newerth.
On January 09 2013 05:03 Baggage wrote: I disagree. XP is far more important in the early game compared to the farm. As long as you generate the bonus exp, missing out on some gold isn't that important.
On January 09 2013 03:51 nojok wrote: I have some questions considering inventory management with supportive heroes. So I have boots, wand, TP, wards, often dust , often a bracer. I'm full. What items should I get as I don't have a really good experience from sharing dust/obs with others players who don't buy it themselves.
Also tp boots wand & bottle on ganker from mid often leads to fast full inventory. So same problem here.
A last question, I spend tons of gold on TP scrolls, often buying two at the same time after death, one to go lane (pay for itself, I consider this tp as free XP) & an other one if I need too. However sometimes it seems I should not have put TP on cooldown even if it seemed safe from minimap. Any tips to choose to TP or walk? But tbh it happens more often when map is not well warded so the problem may not lie there.
Ha i am guessing you asked that first question because you were facing one or multiple invi heroes and nobody in the team gives a damn on the detection except you? xD I know how it feels bro. The best solution is someone in the team needs to carry at least a dust other than you. Boots+TP+Bracer+Wand is the standard but you can give up a bracer if your hero is not too fragile (like jakiro) and depends on your team line up (doesnt need you to stand front etc) or wand if your team doesnt do team fight very often.
The rest are like what people said above nicely.
On January 09 2013 04:13 Jetaap wrote: I have a question about stacking and pulling. I understand why you need to stack before pulling (otherwise the creep camp doesn't kill the entire wave and the lane gets pushed). However, when I end up with alpha wolves in my camp and I stack it, they just destroy the entire wave before even a single one of the creep is dead (even with me autoattacking as much as I can). Last game I had a camp with alpha wolves and centaur and I just couldn't clear it :s. What should I do in this case?
Like all the nice people said above. EXP/income doesnt really matter that much as soon as you make sure that you or your creeps kill the neutrals. Obviously getting those last hits would be nice, could be another set of ward, an earlier boots etc but you should pay more attention on the lane watching your carry and immediately go help if a chance to kill the oppo arised.
I feel that the denial of xp and gold from the creeps killing your wave is the most important part of pulling because their carry needs farm, and as a support you can get buy without it. Whenever I have a stack that mauls the creeps I just keep pulling until they die without auto attacking except for the last hits. I love it when a stack can eat 3 waves of creeps or more, but be careful because your opponents are almost forced to fight you for the creeps at that point (which is also really good because that is just about as far from their tower as they can get).
On January 09 2013 13:31 theaxis12 wrote: I feel that the denial of xp and gold from the creeps killing your wave is the most important part of pulling because their carry needs farm, and as a support you can get buy without it. Whenever I have a stack that mauls the creeps I just keep pulling until they die without auto attacking except for the last hits. I love it when a stack can eat 3 waves of creeps or more, but be careful because your opponents are almost forced to fight you for the creeps at that point (which is also really good because that is just about as far from their tower as they can get).
The thing is, if you manage your pulls properly, it should never be either-or whether it kills the creep wave or you kill the stack. If you manage the camp's HP and the creep wave's HP properly you can always have them just about kill each other off at the same time.
Never killing the neutrals and always having the creep wave die is also inefficient because the neutrals never respawn. The most efficient way is to have the two die more or less at the same time, which is definitely doable.
On January 09 2013 13:31 theaxis12 wrote: I feel that the denial of xp and gold from the creeps killing your wave is the most important part of pulling because their carry needs farm, and as a support you can get buy without it. Whenever I have a stack that mauls the creeps I just keep pulling until they die without auto attacking except for the last hits. I love it when a stack can eat 3 waves of creeps or more, but be careful because your opponents are almost forced to fight you for the creeps at that point (which is also really good because that is just about as far from their tower as they can get).
The thing is, if you manage your pulls properly, it should never be either-or whether it kills the creep wave or you kill the stack. If you manage the camp's HP and the creep wave's HP properly you can always have them just about kill each other off at the same time.
Never killing the neutrals and always having the creep wave die is also inefficient because the neutrals never respawn. The most efficient way is to have the two die more or less at the same time, which is definitely doable.
I definately see your point, and I guess I just need to work on my pulling skills because I almost never have them kill each other. XD This reminds me of a question I had about how to go about doing multi camp pulls because I always seem to time the second pull wrong. Are there any tips or tricks to chaining your pull from camp to camp?
On January 09 2013 15:03 theaxis12 wrote: This reminds me of a question I had about how to go about doing multi camp pulls because I always seem to time the second pull wrong. Are there any tips or tricks to chaining your pull from camp to camp?
It depends on the neutrals, if youre dire or radiant, you have a siege creep and wich neutral gets attacked first. Since there are 4 spawn options its almost impossible to tell you the exact time. Just take a hour and try to get a feeling for it. If you mess it up you can allways orbwalk while pulling the other camp or use a ability. Better waste your mana than giving exp the enemy. Optimally you want to pull op to 3 neutral camps with your last creep barely finishing the last neutral on camp 3 to get the maximum exp/gold. OR if you are rubik just do this:
EPT
