Disclaimer : Once again, I apologize for the audio-video sync problems as I had to re-fraps the video because fraps messed up on me the first time I got the audio in. Rather than focussing on the gameplay, I hope you can listen to the insights I give in order to learn. Please read before watching : The video/commentary guide covers the following aspects:
Tinker's Skill builds ( at its highest complexity involved - to only pump skills according to needs) Tinker's Item builds ( situational items ) Tinker- using laser to eff up your opponent's last hits Tinker's ability to counter kill when getting ganked Tinker's decision to farm/gank Tinker - the blink dagger revolution Tinker- the micro to bottle up while getting ganked Tinker - the usage of all resources of the map to farm Tinker - helping your team secure roshan by pressuring lanes Tinker - split pushing while your team sieges a tower Tinker - EFFING YOUR OPPONENT UP WITH THIS SKILL CALLED REARM
Please leave your questions / comments and I will try my best to answer them
Thanks. Much appreciated if you could like / comment / subscribe if you learnt something / enjoyed.
youtube.com/NewWorldDotA ( the next Luminous cause I'm Chinese)
On skill build, I always try to get 1 or sometimes nil in laser before going max rocket > max march. In my mind, I like playing tinker as a long range artillery kind of hero by spamming rocket with some march support to blanketing the fighting field.
Why is your preference for laser? I feel it is a very strong laning skill but in teamfight, it is very difficult skill to use due to its short range which puts you in a dangerous position prior to dagger which in my case I like the cowardly way of maxing rocket for spamming and laser is close to max when I get dagger.
Item-wise, I usually follow the same i.e. bottle first (laning) or soul ring first (ancient) into BoT and getting the other item not gotten before getting blink dagger.
I HATE Forcestaff with a vengeance because I feel that if I get caught with blink cd-ed by damage, I am just badly positioned. Dagger allows blinking into trees and much faster gap closing. Any situation where forcestaff is much superior to dagger?
From the video, I do about the same actions, i.e. farm lane, farm nc and rinse repeat. Do you ever feel that you are sometimes overpushing the lanes which then gives the enemy a safe farming lane?
Currently only 58% wr on tinker playing on VH solo. I feel like either for close games, the win is all predicated on tinker getting the BoT asap and if I get screwed early by lots of ganks or blocked ancient, the game is well beyond me and only rests on my teammates (which can be unreliable at times). Is there anyway for me to remedy that (on an individual level)? Stack nc to farm? Marching lanes from far?
Laser is pure damage. More painful. I went laser march to farm pressure lanes quicker. You should never worry about overpushing. Overpushing grants map control for your team to farm ancients and jungle. In the long run you would outfarm the opponents. Also it allows your team to secure rosh. Force staff is a utility item excellent for kiting enemy melee heroes like sven and lifestealer which is an item you can consider to help your team.
On July 18 2013 13:38 lazyitachi wrote: On skill build, I always try to get 1 or sometimes nil in laser before going max rocket > max march. In my mind, I like playing tinker as a long range artillery kind of hero by spamming rocket with some march support to blanketing the fighting field.
Why is your preference for laser? I feel it is a very strong laning skill but in teamfight, it is very difficult skill to use due to its short range which puts you in a dangerous position prior to dagger which in my case I like the cowardly way of maxing rocket for spamming and laser is close to max when I get dagger.
Item-wise, I usually follow the same i.e. bottle first (laning) or soul ring first (ancient) into BoT and getting the other item not gotten before getting blink dagger.
I HATE Forcestaff with a vengeance because I feel that if I get caught with blink cd-ed by damage, I am just badly positioned. Dagger allows blinking into trees and much faster gap closing. Any situation where forcestaff is much superior to dagger?
From the video, I do about the same actions, i.e. farm lane, farm nc and rinse repeat. Do you ever feel that you are sometimes overpushing the lanes which then gives the enemy a safe farming lane?
Currently only 58% wr on tinker playing on VH solo. I feel like either for close games, the win is all predicated on tinker getting the BoT asap and if I get screwed early by lots of ganks or blocked ancient, the game is well beyond me and only rests on my teammates (which can be unreliable at times). Is there anyway for me to remedy that (on an individual level)? Stack nc to farm? Marching lanes from far?
Anyway, that accent... so xin jia bo... lol
if youre getting ganked too much, nothing you can do but improve your map awareness. otherwise its up to your team to support you. but once tinker gets his travels i feel that hes very similar to shadowfiend. if you play him correctly you cant stop him from farming, even more so after the blink. if youre still losing then its just your team getting out played. or you dont have fast enough hands for tinker
as for skill build. am i the only one who still prefers rocket laser? rocket march is a good build, but its so much more boring compared to rocket laser.
On July 18 2013 13:38 lazyitachi wrote: On skill build, I always try to get 1 or sometimes nil in laser before going max rocket > max march. In my mind, I like playing tinker as a long range artillery kind of hero by spamming rocket with some march support to blanketing the fighting field.
Why is your preference for laser? I feel it is a very strong laning skill but in teamfight, it is very difficult skill to use due to its short range which puts you in a dangerous position prior to dagger which in my case I like the cowardly way of maxing rocket for spamming and laser is close to max when I get dagger.
Item-wise, I usually follow the same i.e. bottle first (laning) or soul ring first (ancient) into BoT and getting the other item not gotten before getting blink dagger.
I HATE Forcestaff with a vengeance because I feel that if I get caught with blink cd-ed by damage, I am just badly positioned. Dagger allows blinking into trees and much faster gap closing. Any situation where forcestaff is much superior to dagger?
From the video, I do about the same actions, i.e. farm lane, farm nc and rinse repeat. Do you ever feel that you are sometimes overpushing the lanes which then gives the enemy a safe farming lane?
Currently only 58% wr on tinker playing on VH solo. I feel like either for close games, the win is all predicated on tinker getting the BoT asap and if I get screwed early by lots of ganks or blocked ancient, the game is well beyond me and only rests on my teammates (which can be unreliable at times). Is there anyway for me to remedy that (on an individual level)? Stack nc to farm? Marching lanes from far?
Anyway, that accent... so xin jia bo... lol
if youre getting ganked too much, nothing you can do but improve your map awareness. otherwise its up to your team to support you. but once tinker gets his travels i feel that hes very similar to shadowfiend. if you play him correctly you cant stop him from farming, even more so after the blink. if youre still losing then its just your team getting out played. or you dont have fast enough hands for tinker
as for skill build. am i the only one who still prefers rocket laser? rocket march is a good build, but its so much more boring compared to rocket laser.
Laser Rocket is really fun if your sidelanes are gankable, and you can snowball pretty hard if you get some good early ganks off. The thing about Laser Rocket though is that you don't farm as quickly once you get the travels since you will be on lower levels of March for a while, so you need to make those early kills happen or you can fall behind.
Laser-Rocket is just also better in pubs. March-build Tinker is only really good in a game where going March lets you farm it out and come to your first teamfight with a major item in hand (otherwise it only farms and applies map pressure, which pub teammates tend not to be coordinated enough to take advantage of). The superior ganking and solo-killing ability of Laser-Rocket is just better for the way pubs typically play.
On July 19 2013 02:13 Shootemup. wrote: Laser Rocket is really fun if your sidelanes are gankable, and you can snowball pretty hard if you get some good early ganks off. The thing about Laser Rocket though is that you don't farm as quickly once you get the travels since you will be on lower levels of March for a while, so you need to make those early kills happen or you can fall behind.
The flip side of this is that March build doesn't have any ganking presence and unreliable teamfight presence (decent AoE sustained damage, but no burst damage which is what typically decides early-midgame teamfights), so being able to farm fast isn't useful if your team loses every teamfight, and all your T1s go down really early because the mid hero had no presence in said fights.
With the way the game plays right now, you just can't go into pub games with a farming mindset. Whenever the option to kill people and take advantages from that are available you have to do it. As 2009 said about this version, "if you're not killing people, you're just waiting to die."
On July 18 2013 13:38 lazyitachi wrote: On skill build, I always try to get 1 or sometimes nil in laser before going max rocket > max march. In my mind, I like playing tinker as a long range artillery kind of hero by spamming rocket with some march support to blanketing the fighting field.
Why is your preference for laser? I feel it is a very strong laning skill but in teamfight, it is very difficult skill to use due to its short range which puts you in a dangerous position prior to dagger which in my case I like the cowardly way of maxing rocket for spamming and laser is close to max when I get dagger.
Item-wise, I usually follow the same i.e. bottle first (laning) or soul ring first (ancient) into BoT and getting the other item not gotten before getting blink dagger.
I HATE Forcestaff with a vengeance because I feel that if I get caught with blink cd-ed by damage, I am just badly positioned. Dagger allows blinking into trees and much faster gap closing. Any situation where forcestaff is much superior to dagger?
From the video, I do about the same actions, i.e. farm lane, farm nc and rinse repeat. Do you ever feel that you are sometimes overpushing the lanes which then gives the enemy a safe farming lane?
Currently only 58% wr on tinker playing on VH solo. I feel like either for close games, the win is all predicated on tinker getting the BoT asap and if I get screwed early by lots of ganks or blocked ancient, the game is well beyond me and only rests on my teammates (which can be unreliable at times). Is there anyway for me to remedy that (on an individual level)? Stack nc to farm? Marching lanes from far?
Anyway, that accent... so xin jia bo... lol
if youre getting ganked too much, nothing you can do but improve your map awareness. otherwise its up to your team to support you. but once tinker gets his travels i feel that hes very similar to shadowfiend. if you play him correctly you cant stop him from farming, even more so after the blink. if youre still losing then its just your team getting out played. or you dont have fast enough hands for tinker
as for skill build. am i the only one who still prefers rocket laser? rocket march is a good build, but its so much more boring compared to rocket laser.
Map awareness comes from having vision up to counter said ganks. Which is I ask why what else can I do when teammates are shit tier (even at VERY HIGH MMR)? I dont suppose you want to sit in lane and just let mid free farm if one of the enemy supports go missing and you are teamed with an indon 4-stack that does not courier and does not ward. If you have actual constructive advice, would be much appreciated.
The usual way I lose is I get ganked/ ancient blocked/ camped repeatedly while supports all aspire to be carries. Even if other lanes get free farm from the missing lane opponent, they still manage missing last hits and is not even top of networth.
The only way that I usually try to remedy that is to march from afar like I am offlaning tinker or just go do some stacking in hopes the supports go back to their lanes so I can go back to laning. Other than that, Ima try getting my own wards after bottle if I get camped to let the supports waste time.
The other is lanes losing despite being on equal numbers and asking why mid no gank.
Difficult to remedy for a march rocket build except that occasional good rune but it still requires teammate to have game sense.
There's actually a surprising amount of prediction you can do purely with your game sense and without vision. You don't honestly need wards all the time to have some idea of what the enemy is going to/wants to do.
On July 19 2013 11:42 TheYango wrote: There's actually a surprising amount of prediction you can do purely with your game sense and without vision. You don't honestly need wards all the time to have some idea of what the enemy is going to/wants to do.
I agree with you. A tinker without a dagger is undeniably more susceptible to ganks though. I think what he was trying to say was that farming for the dagger might require some good team support such as nicely placed wards or tp support.
On July 18 2013 13:38 lazyitachi wrote: On skill build, I always try to get 1 or sometimes nil in laser before going max rocket > max march. In my mind, I like playing tinker as a long range artillery kind of hero by spamming rocket with some march support to blanketing the fighting field.
Why is your preference for laser? I feel it is a very strong laning skill but in teamfight, it is very difficult skill to use due to its short range which puts you in a dangerous position prior to dagger which in my case I like the cowardly way of maxing rocket for spamming and laser is close to max when I get dagger.
Item-wise, I usually follow the same i.e. bottle first (laning) or soul ring first (ancient) into BoT and getting the other item not gotten before getting blink dagger.
I HATE Forcestaff with a vengeance because I feel that if I get caught with blink cd-ed by damage, I am just badly positioned. Dagger allows blinking into trees and much faster gap closing. Any situation where forcestaff is much superior to dagger?
From the video, I do about the same actions, i.e. farm lane, farm nc and rinse repeat. Do you ever feel that you are sometimes overpushing the lanes which then gives the enemy a safe farming lane?
Currently only 58% wr on tinker playing on VH solo. I feel like either for close games, the win is all predicated on tinker getting the BoT asap and if I get screwed early by lots of ganks or blocked ancient, the game is well beyond me and only rests on my teammates (which can be unreliable at times). Is there anyway for me to remedy that (on an individual level)? Stack nc to farm? Marching lanes from far?
Anyway, that accent... so xin jia bo... lol
if youre getting ganked too much, nothing you can do but improve your map awareness. otherwise its up to your team to support you. but once tinker gets his travels i feel that hes very similar to shadowfiend. if you play him correctly you cant stop him from farming, even more so after the blink. if youre still losing then its just your team getting out played. or you dont have fast enough hands for tinker
as for skill build. am i the only one who still prefers rocket laser? rocket march is a good build, but its so much more boring compared to rocket laser.
Map awareness comes from having vision up to counter said ganks. Which is I ask why what else can I do when teammates are shit tier (even at VERY HIGH MMR)? I dont suppose you want to sit in lane and just let mid free farm if one of the enemy supports go missing and you are teamed with an indon 4-stack that does not courier and does not ward. If you have actual constructive advice, would be much appreciated.
The usual way I lose is I get ganked/ ancient blocked/ camped repeatedly while supports all aspire to be carries. Even if other lanes get free farm from the missing lane opponent, they still manage missing last hits and is not even top of networth.
The only way that I usually try to remedy that is to march from afar like I am offlaning tinker or just go do some stacking in hopes the supports go back to their lanes so I can go back to laning. Other than that, Ima try getting my own wards after bottle if I get camped to let the supports waste time.
The other is lanes losing despite being on equal numbers and asking why mid no gank.
Difficult to remedy for a march rocket build except that occasional good rune but it still requires teammate to have game sense.
If you think wards are a must if you want to survive midlane, then you are playing it wrong. Even with lack of wards if you see heroes missing from the lane you should be able to deduce whether or not it is safe for you to farm. And like i said before, if it isnt a map awareness problem theres nothing you can do but rely on your teammates. If you know theyre shit tier, why are you looking for a way to win?
Tinker was the hero I used to climb out of low skill mmr (with many 3x-3-xx games along the way).
As I get into higher skill games, and especially captains mode, the laser/rocket build is MUCH harder to pull off, where the march build gives reliable farm and lets you hit your timings, counterpush, and apply pressure. Also, choosing where to push/farm with him MUST be a conscious decision, lest you pull the metaphorical kotl who nukes the wave early game so the carry he's babysitting doesn't get farm. this just means having a team who can take advantage of pressure be it split pushing, roshing, or w/e -- this needs to be communicated in pubs especially
On July 19 2013 13:26 lazyitachi wrote: Thanks for your constructive posts. I know now to just type FF and ask enemy to end.
they DID give some good advice: map awareness. there's no magic bullet, just fundamentals. you can't control other people and you're looking for advice on how to do exactly that, you just wanted to QQ from the start.
I usually adapt my build depending on the hero I face mid. Against a squishy hero like SF mid, I'd go laser/rocket build every time. Just a tiny bit of harass and the combo can kill him off rather early, and it's just going to be more impossible for the SF after that. This way I can secure free farm mid, which is the most reliable way to get your BoT fast enough. Against a bottling strength hero I'd probably go for march.
Also about blink, even if you're damaged and it comes on cooldown, you can rearm into shift blink. Works most of the times and makes people go wtf ^^
On July 19 2013 17:05 KurtistheTurtle wrote: Tinker was the hero I used to climb out of low skill mmr (with many 3x-3-xx games along the way).
As I get into higher skill games, and especially captains mode, the laser/rocket build is MUCH harder to pull off, where the march build gives reliable farm and lets you hit your timings, counterpush, and apply pressure. Also, choosing where to push/farm with him MUST be a conscious decision, lest you pull the metaphorical kotl who nukes the wave early game so the carry he's babysitting doesn't get farm. this just means having a team who can take advantage of pressure be it split pushing, roshing, or w/e -- this needs to be communicated in pubs especially
On July 19 2013 13:26 lazyitachi wrote: Thanks for your constructive posts. I know now to just type FF and ask enemy to end.
they DID give some good advice: map awareness. there's no magic bullet, just fundamentals. you can't control other people and you're looking for advice on how to do exactly that, you just wanted to QQ from the start.
I am asking what I can do. Like I cant see that supports are missing. Not sure if you cant read or bad comprehension skills.
I am solo queue very high mmr 58% winrate. How good is your "map awareness"?
On July 19 2013 02:38 TheYango wrote: Laser-Rocket is just also better in pubs. March-build Tinker is only really good in a game where going March lets you farm it out and come to your first teamfight with a major item in hand (otherwise it only farms and applies map pressure, which pub teammates tend not to be coordinated enough to take advantage of). The superior ganking and solo-killing ability of Laser-Rocket is just better for the way pubs typically play.
On July 19 2013 02:13 Shootemup. wrote: Laser Rocket is really fun if your sidelanes are gankable, and you can snowball pretty hard if you get some good early ganks off. The thing about Laser Rocket though is that you don't farm as quickly once you get the travels since you will be on lower levels of March for a while, so you need to make those early kills happen or you can fall behind.
The flip side of this is that March build doesn't have any ganking presence and unreliable teamfight presence (decent AoE sustained damage, but no burst damage which is what typically decides early-midgame teamfights), so being able to farm fast isn't useful if your team loses every teamfight, and all your T1s go down really early because the mid hero had no presence in said fights.
With the way the game plays right now, you just can't go into pub games with a farming mindset. Whenever the option to kill people and take advantages from that are available you have to do it. As 2009 said about this version, "if you're not killing people, you're just waiting to die."
I totally disagree with this. Laser rocket has burst potential but your team fight presence is much bigger with max march. At low levels people can't stand in march, a tinker can hold a tower against certain lineups completely alone.
Laser rocket also puts you in compromising positions in team fights which can get you killed several times early and completely stops any snowball potential you had even with early kills from your burst damage. And then you have no farming ability because you don't have march.
On July 19 2013 17:05 KurtistheTurtle wrote: Tinker was the hero I used to climb out of low skill mmr (with many 3x-3-xx games along the way).
As I get into higher skill games, and especially captains mode, the laser/rocket build is MUCH harder to pull off, where the march build gives reliable farm and lets you hit your timings, counterpush, and apply pressure. Also, choosing where to push/farm with him MUST be a conscious decision, lest you pull the metaphorical kotl who nukes the wave early game so the carry he's babysitting doesn't get farm. this just means having a team who can take advantage of pressure be it split pushing, roshing, or w/e -- this needs to be communicated in pubs especially
On July 19 2013 13:26 lazyitachi wrote: Thanks for your constructive posts. I know now to just type FF and ask enemy to end.
they DID give some good advice: map awareness. there's no magic bullet, just fundamentals. you can't control other people and you're looking for advice on how to do exactly that, you just wanted to QQ from the start.
I am asking what I can do. Like I cant see that supports are missing. Not sure if you cant read or bad comprehension skills.
I am solo queue very high mmr 58% winrate. How good is your "map awareness"?
YOU CANT DO ANYTHING. IS THAT DEFINITIVE ENOUGH FOR YOU god, you sit here asking people how to improve "on an individual level", and then you claim that you have nothing more to improve. if you really feel that you cant do anything without having better supports, stop playing on your own or get your shit together and stop crying. otherwise, take our advice and learn to read the game better. if you dont see supports, let mid free farm if thats what it takes, because thats all YOU can do on an INDIVIDUAL level
I'm brand new to dota (~100 games played), and Tinker is my favorite hero. I always went Force Staff and no blink dagger because I thought the Staff was better for getting out of ganks. I can't BELIEVE it never occurred to me that Rearm lets you shift-queue the blink, so even if people are wailing on you (and keeping blink from cooling down), you'll still blink out.
On July 20 2013 03:11 Hurricane Sponge wrote: I'm brand new to dota (~100 games played), and Tinker is my favorite hero. I always went Force Staff and no blink dagger because I thought the Staff was better for getting out of ganks. I can't BELIEVE it never occurred to me that Rearm lets you shift-queue the blink, so even if people are wailing on you (and keeping blink from cooling down), you'll still blink out.
Thanks!
Glad to hear that you learnt something. Keep improving mate!
On July 20 2013 03:21 kaykaykay wrote: Do you think your dominance has to do with the sf on the other side shitting his pants thinking you were N.W.P?
No. Truth is my real name has the initials of N.W.D hence I called myself NewWorldDotA / N.W.D to have some form of anonymity . I believe I simply outplayed him with my own individual skills and not because he shat his pants thinking I was YamateH.
On July 20 2013 03:21 kaykaykay wrote: Do you think your dominance has to do with the sf on the other side shitting his pants thinking you were N.W.P?
SF should get dominated in that matchup regardless, assuming similar skill.
TBH I figured you would get Laser-Rocket because of that matchup. If Tinker gets even a slight level advantage, it becomes very difficult for SF to stay in the game at with Laser+Rocket due to the burst threat.
On July 20 2013 03:21 kaykaykay wrote: Do you think your dominance has to do with the sf on the other side shitting his pants thinking you were N.W.P?
SF should get dominated in that matchup regardless, assuming similar skill.
TBH I figured you would get Laser-Rocket because of that matchup. If Tinker gets even a slight level advantage, it becomes very difficult for SF to stay in the game at with Laser+Rocket due to the burst threat.
Like I mentioned in the video , I only pump skill points according to what I need. Since I was able to get a solo kill on him , I went 1 in rocket ( in order to secure the solo kill ) and after which I decided to max laser and go for march. I felt that was a better build because I could farm all over the map more easily.
On July 20 2013 03:11 Hurricane Sponge wrote: I'm brand new to dota (~100 games played), and Tinker is my favorite hero. I always went Force Staff and no blink dagger because I thought the Staff was better for getting out of ganks. I can't BELIEVE it never occurred to me that Rearm lets you shift-queue the blink, so even if people are wailing on you (and keeping blink from cooling down), you'll still blink out.
Thanks!
Blink Dagger is really nice to help prevent ganks from happening at all. If you TP to a sidelane and immediately blink into the trees, you can cast March, Rearm, and then TP out in relative safety.
On July 20 2013 03:21 kaykaykay wrote: Do you think your dominance has to do with the sf on the other side shitting his pants thinking you were N.W.P?
SF should get dominated in that matchup regardless, assuming similar skill.
TBH I figured you would get Laser-Rocket because of that matchup. If Tinker gets even a slight level advantage, it becomes very difficult for SF to stay in the game at with Laser+Rocket due to the burst threat.
Like I mentioned in the video , I only pump skill points according to what I need. Since I was able to get a solo kill on him , I went 1 in rocket ( in order to secure the solo kill ) and after which I decided to max laser and go for march. I felt that was a better build because I could farm all over the map more easily.
I know it's probably better for that game, I'm just surprised you didn't level Laser+Rocket to give the SF picker no mercy (many high level Chinese pub players like 2009 and YaphetS to pick strong counter-heroes when they see an SF pick on the other team and just feed on the SF the whole game). Not Chinese enough.
On July 20 2013 03:11 Hurricane Sponge wrote: I'm brand new to dota (~100 games played), and Tinker is my favorite hero. I always went Force Staff and no blink dagger because I thought the Staff was better for getting out of ganks. I can't BELIEVE it never occurred to me that Rearm lets you shift-queue the blink, so even if people are wailing on you (and keeping blink from cooling down), you'll still blink out.
Thanks!
Blink Dagger is really nice to help prevent ganks from happening at all. If you TP to a sidelane and immediately blink into the trees, you can cast March, Rearm, and then TP out in relative safety.
Gonna have to get a good feel for the reach of March (and predicting where the creep clash will take place), but that is really good advice. My approach to surviving ganks was reactive, which is a terrible mentality for Dota. It seems like in this game you win fights before they start (positioning and awareness). Blinking into the trees to March is brilliant.
On July 20 2013 03:11 Hurricane Sponge wrote: I'm brand new to dota (~100 games played), and Tinker is my favorite hero. I always went Force Staff and no blink dagger because I thought the Staff was better for getting out of ganks. I can't BELIEVE it never occurred to me that Rearm lets you shift-queue the blink, so even if people are wailing on you (and keeping blink from cooling down), you'll still blink out.
Thanks!
you cant shift queue it if ppl are already hitting you coz u cant even click it... u get it to hide in trees and stuff... when playing tinker ur escape is not getting hit in the first place. also going 2-2-2 into 2-2-4 i think is the best well-rounded build and has a lot of potential... one of my dota wishes is to get really good at tinker but i nvr bothered... good tinkers scare me the most in this game.
On July 19 2013 20:47 FreeZer wrote: Also about blink, even if you're damaged and it comes on cooldown, you can rearm into shift blink. Works most of the times and makes people go wtf ^^
What do you mean by rearm into shift blink? In my experience you can't shift queue blink when it's on cooldown because of damage taken, you need to wait for the rearm to finish before you can order the hero to blink.
On July 19 2013 17:05 KurtistheTurtle wrote: Tinker was the hero I used to climb out of low skill mmr (with many 3x-3-xx games along the way).
As I get into higher skill games, and especially captains mode, the laser/rocket build is MUCH harder to pull off, where the march build gives reliable farm and lets you hit your timings, counterpush, and apply pressure. Also, choosing where to push/farm with him MUST be a conscious decision, lest you pull the metaphorical kotl who nukes the wave early game so the carry he's babysitting doesn't get farm. this just means having a team who can take advantage of pressure be it split pushing, roshing, or w/e -- this needs to be communicated in pubs especially
On July 19 2013 13:26 lazyitachi wrote: Thanks for your constructive posts. I know now to just type FF and ask enemy to end.
they DID give some good advice: map awareness. there's no magic bullet, just fundamentals. you can't control other people and you're looking for advice on how to do exactly that, you just wanted to QQ from the start.
I am asking what I can do. Like I cant see that supports are missing. Not sure if you cant read or bad comprehension skills.
I am solo queue very high mmr 58% winrate. How good is your "map awareness"?
YOU CANT DO ANYTHING. IS THAT DEFINITIVE ENOUGH FOR YOU god, you sit here asking people how to improve "on an individual level", and then you claim that you have nothing more to improve. if you really feel that you cant do anything without having better supports, stop playing on your own or get your shit together and stop crying. otherwise, take our advice and learn to read the game better. if you dont see supports, let mid free farm if thats what it takes, because thats all YOU can do on an INDIVIDUAL level
Guess I am unlucky unlike you to have people to carry me to ez wins then. . Hurr durr. I dont know what I can do so I am asking what I should do. So many who cant read. No wonder I usually hate posting in TL.
On July 19 2013 17:05 KurtistheTurtle wrote: Tinker was the hero I used to climb out of low skill mmr (with many 3x-3-xx games along the way).
As I get into higher skill games, and especially captains mode, the laser/rocket build is MUCH harder to pull off, where the march build gives reliable farm and lets you hit your timings, counterpush, and apply pressure. Also, choosing where to push/farm with him MUST be a conscious decision, lest you pull the metaphorical kotl who nukes the wave early game so the carry he's babysitting doesn't get farm. this just means having a team who can take advantage of pressure be it split pushing, roshing, or w/e -- this needs to be communicated in pubs especially
On July 19 2013 13:26 lazyitachi wrote: Thanks for your constructive posts. I know now to just type FF and ask enemy to end.
they DID give some good advice: map awareness. there's no magic bullet, just fundamentals. you can't control other people and you're looking for advice on how to do exactly that, you just wanted to QQ from the start.
I am asking what I can do. Like I cant see that supports are missing. Not sure if you cant read or bad comprehension skills.
I am solo queue very high mmr 58% winrate. How good is your "map awareness"?
YOU CANT DO ANYTHING. IS THAT DEFINITIVE ENOUGH FOR YOU god, you sit here asking people how to improve "on an individual level", and then you claim that you have nothing more to improve. if you really feel that you cant do anything without having better supports, stop playing on your own or get your shit together and stop crying. otherwise, take our advice and learn to read the game better. if you dont see supports, let mid free farm if thats what it takes, because thats all YOU can do on an INDIVIDUAL level
Guess I am unlucky unlike you to have people to carry me to ez wins then. . Hurr durr. I dont know what I can do so I am asking what I should do. So many who cant read. No wonder I usually hate posting in TL.
Technically Rearm isn't even supposed to rearm a disabled blink, because in DotA 1 the disabled state isn't even handled by cooldown--it's disabled by replacing it with a dummy item for 3 seconds.
That it can rearm that 3 second deactivation is a known bug.
On July 20 2013 11:26 TheYango wrote: Technically Rearm isn't even supposed to rearm a disabled blink, because in DotA 1 the disabled state isn't even handled by cooldown--it's disabled by replacing it with a dummy item for 3 seconds.
That it can rearm that 3 second deactivation is a known bug.
Ya this is a pretty dumb part of tinker atm in dota2.
One thing I like to do with skills is to keep a few points unallocated, so just incase sombody commits on me in a 1v1 situation (or even in a 2v2 situation) you can turn it and pick up a kill or so. Smarter enemies might notice that your march isnt doing as much as it should if you are level 5 or whatever.
Another good habit: if you are mid tinker as sent, stack your ancients during your lane. Even if you miss like 1 cs/min (from stacking at X:53) its worth it because at like 6 minutes you can farm the whole thing and have travs (or soul bottle boots +money) pretty quickly.
On July 20 2013 11:26 TheYango wrote: Technically Rearm isn't even supposed to rearm a disabled blink, because in DotA 1 the disabled state isn't even handled by cooldown--it's disabled by replacing it with a dummy item for 3 seconds.
That it can rearm that 3 second deactivation is a known bug.
Ya this is a pretty dumb part of tinker atm in dota2.
One thing I like to do with skills is to keep a few points unallocated, so just incase sombody commits on me in a 1v1 situation (or even in a 2v2 situation) you can turn it and pick up a kill or so. Smarter enemies might notice that your march isnt doing as much as it should if you are level 5 or whatever.
Another good habit: if you are mid tinker as sent, stack your ancients during your lane. Even if you miss like 1 cs/min (from stacking at X:53) its worth it because at like 6 minutes you can farm the whole thing and have travs (or soul bottle boots +money) pretty quickly.
6 min bot? teach me! Dont think I have seen faster than 8. Maybe if freefarm and ancient stacked for you with a regen rune.
On July 20 2013 11:26 TheYango wrote: Technically Rearm isn't even supposed to rearm a disabled blink, because in DotA 1 the disabled state isn't even handled by cooldown--it's disabled by replacing it with a dummy item for 3 seconds.
That it can rearm that 3 second deactivation is a known bug.
that sux.. I tot it s a "skill thing" but now its a bug thing. Ded tinker is ded then.
On July 20 2013 11:26 TheYango wrote: Technically Rearm isn't even supposed to rearm a disabled blink, because in DotA 1 the disabled state isn't even handled by cooldown--it's disabled by replacing it with a dummy item for 3 seconds.
That it can rearm that 3 second deactivation is a known bug.
Ya this is a pretty dumb part of tinker atm in dota2.
One thing I like to do with skills is to keep a few points unallocated, so just incase sombody commits on me in a 1v1 situation (or even in a 2v2 situation) you can turn it and pick up a kill or so. Smarter enemies might notice that your march isnt doing as much as it should if you are level 5 or whatever.
Another good habit: if you are mid tinker as sent, stack your ancients during your lane. Even if you miss like 1 cs/min (from stacking at X:53) its worth it because at like 6 minutes you can farm the whole thing and have travs (or soul bottle boots +money) pretty quickly.
6 min bot? teach me! Dont think I have seen faster than 8. Maybe if freefarm and ancient stacked for you with a regen rune.
Nah with freefarm you dont even need the ancients to have almost Bot by 6 minutes (freefarm gets you 40-49 kills, assuming 49, on average something like 2100 once you bring in seige creep bounty).
A simple formula to use to check the number of possible creeps/lane by a certain time before creeps get added (iirc something like 17 minutes or so) is 6x+2x+Floor[x/3.5] where x is the number of minutes that have past. At 6 minutes you get == 49. Thats 1 seige creep, 12 ranged creeps, and 36 melee. Lets say you average 2 creeps/wave. Since this is an estimate, I combine bounty values for melee and ranged. This becomes 38-53 with an average bounty of 45.5. This gives you 546 gold from 2 unidentified creeps per minute. Then you get 1 gold/sec, and 6 mins of this gives you another 360 gold, totaling 906 from your below average csing in lane.
If you stack the ancients every minute, (1,...,6) you get a 6 stack, but sometimes the creeps get stuck on eachother after 4 or so. So for the sake of my argument, lets say you stacked it 4 times. Dragons give 252-364 (308); Golems give 215-245 (230); Lizards give 257-271 (264) where the values in parenthesis are the average.
Lets assume you got 4stack of golems (you didnt). They have the least value out of all of them on average. Killing that stack with march gives you 920 gold.
This model also assumes you didnt get any kills or die, didnt kill the seige creep and arent very good at lasthitting.
With a pretty bad rating of 24 cs at 6 mins (freefarm should be 40+, solo vs solo lane you want upwards of 30, but depending on the matchup its not always possible), we got to 1826 gold. That easily covers bottle, boots and soulring +a tiny amount of cash. If you wanted to rush bot ASAP, youve got ~1000 towards it. If you got more than 4 stacks off, you get an additional 500+ gold. If you got anything other than golems during all your stacks (you did) you are making another ~200. Thats a potential 700 gold more, totaling 2526, which puts you just short of BoT gold. Work on your lasthitting and you have it.
Tats a lot of talk. Show me a game where u get ur 6 min bot. Most of the ppl here are all talk and cant even do the thing they say they can. Huur durr.. i can 6 min bot work on last hitting..
oo.. high mmr carried to very high on occasion player.. lol... dont bother showing me that game
On July 21 2013 02:39 lazyitachi wrote: Tats a lot of talk. Show me a game where u get ur 6 min bot. Most of the ppl here are all talk and cant even do the thing they say they can. Huur durr.. i can 6 min bot work on last hitting..
oo.. high mmr carried to very high on occasion player.. lol... dont bother showing me that game
On July 21 2013 02:39 lazyitachi wrote: Tats a lot of talk. Show me a game where u get ur 6 min bot. Most of the ppl here are all talk and cant even do the thing they say they can. Huur durr.. i can 6 min bot work on last hitting..
oo.. high mmr carried to very high on occasion player.. lol... dont bother showing me that game
lazyitachi,
youve taken every scenario of something going wrong, and you've used your little understanding of the current metagame and have blamed pretty much every single person other than yourself. you need to get off you pedestal before you can improve. buy your own wards, dont cry to mid when you lose your top/bot lane, and finally pick a hero that helps with your team composition - then you will start seeing improvement.
had a period where I played Tinker exclusively. not that many games mind you, like 20 or so.
what I learned was that pushing out lanes means your carries cant farm. which means games wont end before the 50 minute mark which fucking wrecks my hands because I'm constantly spamming hotkeys like an idiot. not a very fun activity.
Anyways, I personalty consider 10 min bots+bottle a good result. I always went for march+either laser or rockets build, maxing the burst is kinda risky because if you dont get 3-4-5 kills early on you're fucked and suddenly you cant farm your next big item. In certain MUs though maxing the burst for an ez kill mid is pretty nice, the key is to not show what build you're going for, you wait to hit 6 or so and then blow up your opponent when he walks in laser range with something like 70% HP. Buying your own wards for the enemy side lanes is pretty essential as well. Maxing Rearm at 16 is not a very good idea unless you have two big int items already, shit just costs way too much mana.
just my 2c
That being said, I'm a pretty horrible mid player but I still think Tinker is one of the easier heroes to go mid with. Very fun to play when your carries know how to play around him. Tedious as fuck in pubs when you have 4 people on your team farming the same jungle or when your carry cant last hit creeps under march of the machines.
i dont know man, if tinker can last hit under march of the machines with his shitty damage and projectile speed during laning, one would think a meele carry should be able to do it as well.
im not saying it easy, but its still doable. you just have to pay attention to the machines in the AOE and anticipate when a creep will take damage
depends if youre talking 1 march or 2. during laning you usually have a lower lvl of march and you dont have enough mana to cast a 2nd one. but outside of the laning phase, you will never see someone trying to last hit under 2 waves of marches
On July 20 2013 11:26 TheYango wrote: Technically Rearm isn't even supposed to rearm a disabled blink, because in DotA 1 the disabled state isn't even handled by cooldown--it's disabled by replacing it with a dummy item for 3 seconds.
That it can rearm that 3 second deactivation is a known bug.
Didn't know it was a bug, but it did make me feel like a boss when I blinked out of a furion's sprout between attacks, prompting a 'wtf' in all chat.
On July 20 2013 11:26 TheYango wrote: Technically Rearm isn't even supposed to rearm a disabled blink, because in DotA 1 the disabled state isn't even handled by cooldown--it's disabled by replacing it with a dummy item for 3 seconds.
That it can rearm that 3 second deactivation is a known bug.
Ya this is a pretty dumb part of tinker atm in dota2.
One thing I like to do with skills is to keep a few points unallocated, so just incase sombody commits on me in a 1v1 situation (or even in a 2v2 situation) you can turn it and pick up a kill or so. Smarter enemies might notice that your march isnt doing as much as it should if you are level 5 or whatever.
Another good habit: if you are mid tinker as sent, stack your ancients during your lane. Even if you miss like 1 cs/min (from stacking at X:53) its worth it because at like 6 minutes you can farm the whole thing and have travs (or soul bottle boots +money) pretty quickly.
You have to show us that perfect showcase of Tinker play. I am not being sarcastic or anything, someone should make a VOD out of that, it would be beautiful to watch.
Practically speaking, in any real game, 6mins BoT tinker can only happen on freefarm safelane tinker (ya...) start with maybe random gold or early hero kill/s, i am judging that by my experience of 5/6mins midas on a freefarming safelane carry. Otherwise, mid tinker with naked BoT before 9mins can almost be considered as a perfect tinker game, or more commonly you see some bottle/soulring+BoT before 13mins with some nice ganks.
two things i want to mention: 1st why did march+rocket +1 in laser die out? In the last progames i have seen tinker being played in, everyone went max laser+situationally maxing rocket or march. I get that it's a laning build, but tinker should be able to win against weaker lanes with 1 in laser alone. And march>rocket>laser makes you a lot stronger at pushing or defending and generally annoying the enemies.
2nd: I think that mentioning that etheral blade is pretty nice not just because of the bonus damage, but also because it includes a rearmable ghost scepter, which counters to some extend bkb-carries might be important. I tend to go into sheep-stick into ghost-scepter for maximum disable, but i dont play tinker very often.
@lazyItachi: If all your allies feed, you obviously loose the game. If only one lane feeds and the other wins, winning yours means 2 won 1 lost, which will put you ahead. If the enemy is hardcore fed and a snowball like ursa/troll warlord, i recommend getting scythe+ghost-sceptre to disable him during teamfights.
On a side note: the thing about map awareness is absolutely true. If you see their supports missing and not appearing after a second and think that they might gank you and will probably kill you if they do so, just play defensive. It is harder if they play a tri (which they do most of the time in low very high already) and have one most of the time in the jungle, but getting a ward solves that problem most of the time. If every single support in the game is a douche and doesnt get wards, get them yourself, you can easily farm them within seconds and every gank you survive thanks to wards will have made them worth the investment.
On July 22 2013 02:12 evilfatsh1t wrote: no you cant
You can test it yourself in under 2 minutes... Go make a practice lobby, put cheats on... Start game, pick Tinker, -gold 99999, buy BoTs and a Ghost Scepter... Use Ghost Scepter and TP... Then thank me for learning something new.
On July 22 2013 02:12 evilfatsh1t wrote: no you cant
You can't EB/ghost and TP scroll, but you can EB/ghost and BoT.
e: I'd love to see a 6 minute BoT, lol. Maybe if u skip bottle(not sure how you have mana for ancients), but my "good" BoT timing is around 7:30 , average 830-9
Just got around to watching the video, have a few discussion points / questions:
- What do you do if you get ganked repeatedly and end up dying a lot early on? How do you stay relevant with a very late BoT? - Are there certain matchups that tinker is extremely hard to play in, and how would you get farm in that case? - Conversely, are there any mids that you think tinker is a counterpick to? - Radiant side vs dire side tinker pick? (position of ancients, farming multiple jungle camps at a time with march)
and I just tried the ghost scepter thing, BoT works
@synapse: i am by no means a tinker pro, but here is what i would do:
-counterpush the shit out of them. When you are behind you will need to stall them until you get the rest of your gear, so pushing out at least one lane should be top priority in order to avoid needing to teamfight. -qop and especially puck should be bad. Puck easily gives vision with orb and can scout you out when you are in the trees later on. Both have high nuke damage and puck can even avoid rockets. DK in the mid-game. His high basic health and regen means that he has to be less concerned about march and he has a relatively long stun in dragon form to cancel tp. He also is gonna push when tinker is weakest. Bat and Tinker kinda counter each other. March and rockets will really hurt bat, but he can cancel bot with 2 spells and get tinker out of the trees later on. Same goes for ta, who has a long range scouting spell and is highly immune to nuke damage, but is weak against march and laser. OD is bad news for any solo hero in the game. Storm will probably crush tinker all game long unless he's dominated before lvl 6. Invoker has either sunstrike or tornado and coldsnap. Every gank is going to be deadly for tinker. -Anything with really low hp and no silence/stun. He's good against beastmaster besides, as he destroys the hawk. -Radiant side gives you closer ancients, which means that stacking them is going to be easier. Dire has the bit better jungle camps, but i dont think that it matters.
1) ive never done it but im guessing you can shift-queue command in dota, so you can tp-blink using the shift key. can try later
2) etheral blade, not sure how it works. is it just "target unit is damaged once, slowed, and is otherwise invulnerable for 4 seconds"? so your combo would be laser - rocket - etheral blade - reload (and not etheral blade - laser - rocket)
does this outclass say dagon lv5 or hex? ive been going hex so far and its decent (if my team bothers to run after me) but etheral blade sounds sick if it disables, slows AND does dmg
3) in the video you use march backwards rather than forwards-facing
i tried tinker the other day for first time and im hooked. never tried before coz my friend said you need insane apm, but you dont...you just have to combo
On July 22 2013 01:34 ChunderBoy wrote: eblade/ghost scepter is pretty good on tinker coz u can just go ethereal form and tp out
User was warned for this post
lmao warned for saying informative stuff.. alright
I warned him because he has a pretty long history of one-liners. It was probably not the most appropriate post to warn him on, but it shouldn't really be that hard for someone who clearly knows his shit to write something more helpful.
On July 26 2013 04:08 FFGenerations wrote: eh ethereal blade means you can still use magic attacks but not normal attacks? why does the dota2wiki say "Cannot attack or be attacked" then
Spells are not "attacks". Attacks use your heroes damage, where as spells do what the spells say. 99% of the time spells will work on ethereal targets (exceptions are physical base spells - eg juggs ult and naga net. Also note that while tinkers rocket is magical, it won't target someone who is ethereal, so it is only amplified if you use rocket then make them ethereal while they are in mid air).
The kinda exception is orb attacks (ie arcane orb, frost arrows, etc), which are spells that use your normal attacks. You can't use these to attack people who are ethereal, but if you yourself have one and are ethereal, you can manually cast it to attack normal targets while ethereal.
On July 26 2013 04:08 FFGenerations wrote: eh ethereal blade means you can still use magic attacks but not normal attacks? why does the dota2wiki say "Cannot attack or be attacked" then
"Attack" in this case refers to legit normal right clicks forms of attack. Magical attacks are forms of spells being used. That's the difference I guess.
On July 26 2013 03:44 FFGenerations wrote: 1) ive never done it but im guessing you can shift-queue command in dota, so you can tp-blink using the shift key. can try later
2) etheral blade, not sure how it works. is it just "target unit is damaged once, slowed, and is otherwise invulnerable for 4 seconds"? so your combo would be laser - rocket - etheral blade - reload (and not etheral blade - laser - rocket)
does this outclass say dagon lv5 or hex? ive been going hex so far and its decent (if my team bothers to run after me) but etheral blade sounds sick if it disables, slows AND does dmg
3) in the video you use march backwards rather than forwards-facing
i tried tinker the other day for first time and im hooked. never tried before coz my friend said you need insane apm, but you dont...you just have to combo
You see , playing Tinker requires at least some forms of micro and reaction timing. For example , if you're able to micro well all your items , you would be able to hex people quicker before you're being disabled or what not.
To answer your question, you should not get ethereal blade right from the get-go because you would have limited mana pool. I'd rather you get dagon to increase your mana pool for quite a bit . Not to forget ethereal blade only allows magical damage , so if your team has physical damage heroes such as Sven , Riki , or Lifestealer, it wouldn't be a plus-point for getting ethereal blade.
I used march backwards rather than forward-facing because by marching backwards , the march would hit the creeps quicker. It all boils down to personal preferences/perception . I speculate professional players who do it, which was why I learnt to use march this way from them.
If you are going Dagon+EBlade, you should always have at least Dagon 1 before getting the EBlade. Mathematically, the burst added by EBlade is far less than that of going from no Dagon to Dagon 3 (similar cost), but if you already have Dagon 1, the increase in burst of getting EBlade is a lot better than that of getting Dagon 5 (again, similar cost). Of course, using Dagon 1 + EBlade is prohibitively straining on your mana, which is why you typically would need to upgrade the Dagon or buy other mana items.
yeah, the range and mana cost reduction on dagon5 are really important also at dagon4~5 (~lv16) you get exactly 2 sets of rocket + dagon + blink + laser
my tinker record (solo/ungrouped pubs) is now something like 3-13.
i generally go 3-0, 4-0 and delay a lot of players, then spend the next 40 minutes screaming at the team to group up and stop dying 1v5, 2v5.
i think i've dropped into shit tier. people dont know what tinker even does ("why do you keep going back to base asshole?" "why does their warlock have 4 golems?").
my friend told me to make sure i'm not stealing farm, and suggested i LEAD any push (rather than screaming at them to group up, because they wont), and this helps. also i think in 10 games only like 1 person has warded (except for me) which is pretty telling that im in shit tier.
tinker is freakin awesome but doesn't appear to be someone you can win with in pubs unless your team also out-carries the opposition (ie 1-2-carry team autoloses to 3-5 carry team after 55 minutes). you can keep the game running for a long time but dont have enough impact to carry the game in any way. you can scream at your team in caps 100 times to push when you have an advantage but it doesnt mean they will listen
how do your games go when you dont pick tinker? either yes, you are in really low mm or youre doing something wrong. there is no hero that can win pubs for you when you are getting outcarried. maybe shadowfiend, maybe. if you ever win a game pretty much on your own its not because the hero is good, it just means your opponents are shit and you are miles ahead of them in skill.
On July 31 2013 13:29 dotaaddict wrote: I was very noob at tinker then watching a basic dotacinema video helped a lot, you need to learn the basic of tinker http://www.dota2plays.com/dota-2-tinker-remastered/
On July 26 2013 16:58 FFGenerations wrote: thanks.
i cant stop dreaming about playing tinker
same here what a hero
the heroes i find the most annoying to play versus is clockwerk, spectre, nyx and storm i found the best build for tinker is to level laser early to level 2, max march and then max rocket later on. 2 in laser gives u a decent amount of damage for the lane. if im mid vs a storm or sf , i usually do 2-2 and kill him at level 4.
I get its first level usually when I get some mana (soul booster, or soul booster minus the HP item)... In fact, I usually spam rocket or laser (the one I leveled the most) to harass, and don't have enough mana (before the soul booster) to go laser-rocket-rearm-laser, so why even level it ?
(looks like the 2 guides here goes this way, learning rearm when you have mana/need to use it on ancients with March)
I only played with Laser->rocket and Rocket->laser builds, until now... How easy is it to farm with a March build ?
rearm is usually gotten at lvl 9, although it can be earlier depending on how fast you get your travels. dont get soul booster, tinker doesnt need raw hp/mana. he needs items which will change fights because he can rearm them all the time. hex/dagon/shivas etc. and march farms a lot faster than laser/rocket, its just harder to kill people
bloodstones not bad as a 6th item if you went straight for hex and shivas. that is if you dont plan on picking up dagon/eblade during the game. if you went dagon/eblade then you wont have the space for bloodstone though.
On August 07 2013 06:13 739 wrote: You dont wan't bloodstone on Tinker... :/
Bloodstone is a situationally decent item. If you are confident of yourself getting a whole bunch of kills despite your team's excessive amount of feeds, bloodstone does a lot.
The constant mana regeneration increase is greatly beneficial for Tinker. In addition, the quick respawn time with many charges is pretty decent.
To prove my point on its effectiveness, you may want to view this game of mine of Tinker.
BTW I've spoken with Firebolt yesterday and I decided to give Tinker a try. So I've picked Tinker for the very first time and I've asked for mid. Someone picked Puck and stole my mid, so I decided to ancient stack & farm. Holy shit never did so bad. Constantly ganked by LD and QoP and proceed to make 0-9 at the end..
On August 07 2013 15:46 739 wrote: BTW I've spoken with Firebolt yesterday and I decided to give Tinker a try. So I've picked Tinker for the very first time and I've asked for mid. Someone picked Puck and stole my mid, so I decided to ancient stack & farm. Holy shit never did so bad. Constantly ganked by LD and QoP and proceed to make 0-9 at the end..
No more tinker for me. At least no more ancients.
With 100+ ancient stacks on tinker I feel confident in stating that you should never ancient stack with him.
It is simply throwing dice on whetever you get a decent early/mid game or have a horrible game all together, if they want to ruin your game then they can do that very easily in many ways.
If you don't get mid then go stack jungle as it is equally fast gold wise, just less experiance, but way way safer as your stacks are cleared faster and you are constantly killing the small camp. So even if someone comes at 3, 4, 5 etc min mark to mess with you, you shouldn't have that much they can mess up and still be in fine shape to have a decent game.
On August 07 2013 18:59 Dead9 wrote: healer priest and satyr regen aura ruins jungle tho esp healer priesr
Neither is a problem, I quite prefer getting satyrs even as they give a lot more gold on average. edit: and the smaller satyrs die fast making it easier to stack a bigger camp.
Priests are a pain though, but you will still clear every priest camp in time to stack. On radiant side you have to use the march purely for the small camp if its priest though, else not enough march hits.
why are you using march on the small camp in radiant? maybe if you were constricted for mana and could only use 1 march, but if thats not the case you should be using it in the middle of the 2 medium camps and the hard camp. stack the hard camp then hit all 3 at once
in my experience there isn't enough dmg between the low level marches and autoattacks to kill medium camps efficiently which results in leveling up much slower and thus taking far longer to kill the stacked camp.
However you can always clear the small camp while stacking the big camp and many small camp spawns are weak enough that you can just march inbetween the two and still kill it in time to stack.
Aside from that you are significantly more exposed to ganks and getting camps blocked if you try to jungle the three camps as radiant. Everytime mid wants to gank he will mostly go through you, many people ward at least one spawn so that is one less camp immediatly along with being ganked more likely.
As an added bonus, jungling as tinker tends to be courier heavy, and doing the camps that are closer to base makes it a lot easier, also as radiant you are literally next to mid so you can time it with mid getting items.
what stage of the game are we talking about? im definitely not talking about lvls 1-5 where you dont even have rearm to help you farm. by the time tinker has lvl 6 however, there will not be a ward blocking any camps in 99% of cases because most people dont block after the first 6 mins. you should definitely have a rune ward at bot to see if their mid is coming your way, and just keeping an eye on bot lane to see if their players rotate through the jungles should be enough to keep you safe. the distance the courier has to travel is a minor issue, definitely not big enough to warrant not using the middle camps, and you have the added bonus of being the first to bot rune every 2mins. and 2 stacks of lvl 2 marches is sufficient to clear middle camps with auto attacks. 2 stacks of lvl 3 marches allows you to hit the big creeps and let the middle camps die on their own, unless you get unlucky with the march hits and some survive on tiny hp
On July 30 2013 20:49 FFGenerations wrote: my tinker record (solo/ungrouped pubs) is now something like 3-13.
i generally go 3-0, 4-0 and delay a lot of players, then spend the next 40 minutes screaming at the team to group up and stop dying 1v5, 2v5.
i think i've dropped into shit tier. people dont know what tinker even does ("why do you keep going back to base asshole?" "why does their warlock have 4 golems?").
my friend told me to make sure i'm not stealing farm, and suggested i LEAD any push (rather than screaming at them to group up, because they wont), and this helps. also i think in 10 games only like 1 person has warded (except for me) which is pretty telling that im in shit tier.
tinker is freakin awesome but doesn't appear to be someone you can win with in pubs unless your team also out-carries the opposition (ie 1-2-carry team autoloses to 3-5 carry team after 55 minutes). you can keep the game running for a long time but dont have enough impact to carry the game in any way. you can scream at your team in caps 100 times to push when you have an advantage but it doesnt mean they will listen
sounds like you might be taking too much farm from your team and not building the right items. If you go blink sheep it's pretty hard to lose in pubs with thinker, dagon5 into eblade also does a good job ending games quick. So long as your team has some heros that scale into late game, if you go blink sheep and just turtle it should be pretty hard to lose. It seems that you screaming at your team is probably the number one cause of the loss, regardless of what heros anyone is playing and how well the game is going, screaming at your teammates will cause you to lose the game pretty much no matter what..
On August 08 2013 23:35 evilfatsh1t wrote: what stage of the game are we talking about? im definitely not talking about lvls 1-5 where you dont even have rearm to help you farm. by the time tinker has lvl 6 however, there will not be a ward blocking any camps in 99% of cases because most people dont block after the first 6 mins. you should definitely have a rune ward at bot to see if their mid is coming your way, and just keeping an eye on bot lane to see if their players rotate through the jungles should be enough to keep you safe. the distance the courier has to travel is a minor issue, definitely not big enough to warrant not using the middle camps, and you have the added bonus of being the first to bot rune every 2mins. and 2 stacks of lvl 2 marches is sufficient to clear middle camps with auto attacks. 2 stacks of lvl 3 marches allows you to hit the big creeps and let the middle camps die on their own, unless you get unlucky with the march hits and some survive on tiny hp
Well jungling, so from lvl 1, the person I replied to at first said he didn't get mid and tried ancient stacking which ended poorly, so I suggested jungel instead.
Going for the 3 camps is definitely viable and actually very good when hitting lvl 6 if you have opted for a soul ring prior to midas or if you are going straight BoT, or even if you are just at near full mana.
But I agree the courier isn't a problem, its just nice to not occupy it all that much over teammates, hence "added bonus" was ment to mean just a nice extra without any meaningfull significance.
But as you pointed out you would need two lvl 2 marches+auto attack to kill the medium camps and that is why its very bad to go for the three camps over the 2 camps when doing a jungle tinker, you will be losing stacks half of the time when you have lvl 2 march and since you start with lvl 1 march it will take way more than two marches.
The bot rune however is a big benefit of three camps, when/if there comes a good way to kill the camps.
On July 19 2013 02:38 TheYango wrote: Laser-Rocket is just also better in pubs. March-build Tinker is only really good in a game where going March lets you farm it out and come to your first teamfight with a major item in hand (otherwise it only farms and applies map pressure, which pub teammates tend not to be coordinated enough to take advantage of). The superior ganking and solo-killing ability of Laser-Rocket is just better for the way pubs typically play.
On July 19 2013 02:13 Shootemup. wrote: Laser Rocket is really fun if your sidelanes are gankable, and you can snowball pretty hard if you get some good early ganks off. The thing about Laser Rocket though is that you don't farm as quickly once you get the travels since you will be on lower levels of March for a while, so you need to make those early kills happen or you can fall behind.
The flip side of this is that March build doesn't have any ganking presence and unreliable teamfight presence (decent AoE sustained damage, but no burst damage which is what typically decides early-midgame teamfights), so being able to farm fast isn't useful if your team loses every teamfight, and all your T1s go down really early because the mid hero had no presence in said fights.
With the way the game plays right now, you just can't go into pub games with a farming mindset. Whenever the option to kill people and take advantages from that are available you have to do it. As 2009 said about this version, "if you're not killing people, you're just waiting to die."
I'm curious, is early March viable in competitive games? So far all the pro games where I've seen Tinker appear max out Laser and Rocket first to kill heroes.
On July 19 2013 02:38 TheYango wrote: Laser-Rocket is just also better in pubs. March-build Tinker is only really good in a game where going March lets you farm it out and come to your first teamfight with a major item in hand (otherwise it only farms and applies map pressure, which pub teammates tend not to be coordinated enough to take advantage of). The superior ganking and solo-killing ability of Laser-Rocket is just better for the way pubs typically play.
On July 19 2013 02:13 Shootemup. wrote: Laser Rocket is really fun if your sidelanes are gankable, and you can snowball pretty hard if you get some good early ganks off. The thing about Laser Rocket though is that you don't farm as quickly once you get the travels since you will be on lower levels of March for a while, so you need to make those early kills happen or you can fall behind.
The flip side of this is that March build doesn't have any ganking presence and unreliable teamfight presence (decent AoE sustained damage, but no burst damage which is what typically decides early-midgame teamfights), so being able to farm fast isn't useful if your team loses every teamfight, and all your T1s go down really early because the mid hero had no presence in said fights.
With the way the game plays right now, you just can't go into pub games with a farming mindset. Whenever the option to kill people and take advantages from that are available you have to do it. As 2009 said about this version, "if you're not killing people, you're just waiting to die."
I'm curious, is early March viable in competitive games? So far all the pro games where I've seen Tinker appear max out Laser and Rocket first to kill heroes.
That is not true. Zenith's xy tinker maxes march and I believe so does Bulba's. Are you sure those games you watched are competitive games?
Since Dota 1 I'd say I probably have over 2,000 games with Tinker alone. Probably about 500 in Dota 2.
Few things in the thread I want to address.
1) He is imo by far and away, the best hero to win matches when your team is shit. 2) You CANNOT shift-queue blink when it's on CD from being damaged, You can however spam blink while you're rearming. 3) Stop thinking "How fast can I get bots" and start thinking "how fast can I get bots, soul ring, bottle, and blink dagger". Sometimes soul ring before bots is faster, sometimes bots before bottle is faster. You must adapt. 4) He pairs very well with super late game carries due to being the best turtler in the game. 5) If you do ancients, don't roll dice. Start out with a sentry and ward. 6) He wrecks furion.
I'm curious, is early March viable in competitive games? So far all the pro games where I've seen Tinker appear max out Laser and Rocket first to kill heroes.
Eh? The vast majority of "pro" games consist of march. If you go laser/rocket, I must INSIST you buy a smoke of deceit. I tend to go laser/rocket if I have evidence that one of my laners has an IQ above toast.
On August 15 2013 05:11 FFGenerations wrote: can you explain when exactly soul ring is used? is it only used when your mana reaches ~0? i don't see why it would be used otherwise
Rearm refreshes Soul Ring. You use it every time you Rearm, this nullifies the mana cost of Lvl 1 Rearm, which makes your mana go way farther when repeatedly Rearming.
On August 15 2013 05:11 FFGenerations wrote: can you explain when exactly soul ring is used? is it only used when your mana reaches ~0? i don't see why it would be used otherwise
Use it before you rearm. Helps to mitigate the heavy cost of Rearm until you get into the late-game and have Hex + another mana item and it's trivial. It also makes your stints at the fountain much shorter, which can make all the difference in the world when split pushing or trying to get back to a lane to help teamfight or gank. It also comes in handy if you blow all your mana fighting and have none to blink or teleport back to base to regen.
The guy above who said Tinker shits on Furion is completely correct, and I hadn't made that connection yet. Why didn't any TI3 teams try to counter Bulldog's Furion this way? Tinker isn't the best mid, but he's not the worst either, and can go toe-to-toe with many heroes if he's played correctly.
tinker only shits on furion when furion insists on farming lanes and split pushing. Bulldog likes farming jungles and ancients a lot more. Cant pick tinker to try and shut down a jungling furion. otherwise teams may just not like tinker because it doesnt suit their style or picks? Not every team have strong tinker players He cant go mid against the popular pick ups right now like od or puck. Even qop does well against him. Has to be in the safe lane farming but most teams would rather just try to pick up an alch then.
On August 15 2013 10:52 evilfatsh1t wrote: tinker only shits on furion when furion insists on farming lanes and split pushing. Bulldog likes farming jungles and ancients a lot more. Cant pick tinker to try and shut down a jungling furion. otherwise teams may just not like tinker because it doesnt suit their style or picks? Not every team have strong tinker players He cant go mid against the popular pick ups right now like od or puck. Even qop does well against him. Has to be in the safe lane farming but most teams would rather just try to pick up an alch then.
What in the world are you talking about?
Every Furion worth his salt split pushes to take advantage of the enemy's position being far away to force tps or to bring down towers and bases. Bulldog does this ALL THE TIME.
I have literally never met a furion that split/farms lanes as opposed to jungling, ever, not once.
Regarding Soul Ring, you can just use it at the beginning when you are still at full mana. If you use it at full mana it simply expands your mana pool to hold the extra mana that you've converted your HP to, and it will return to its original capacity after you use up that mana.
Unless I'm pretty assured of getting a lot of early kills with rocket laser I find it pretty risky to go for it. March is actually pretty good in low-mid tier pubs imo, people nearly always underestimate its power, and I find i nearly always get a decent timing on my travels if I get it.
How effective is manta on tinker? I've never actually tried it, but from what I've seen its sort of a pretty old school build.
On August 15 2013 10:52 evilfatsh1t wrote: tinker only shits on furion when furion insists on farming lanes and split pushing. Bulldog likes farming jungles and ancients a lot more. Cant pick tinker to try and shut down a jungling furion. otherwise teams may just not like tinker because it doesnt suit their style or picks? Not every team have strong tinker players He cant go mid against the popular pick ups right now like od or puck. Even qop does well against him. Has to be in the safe lane farming but most teams would rather just try to pick up an alch then.
What in the world are you talking about?
Every Furion worth his salt split pushes to take advantage of the enemy's position being far away to force tps or to bring down towers and bases. Bulldog does this ALL THE TIME.
I have literally never met a furion that split/farms lanes as opposed to jungling, ever, not once.
? wtf are you talking about. im not saying bulldog never farms lanes you idiot. im saying he prioritises farming jungles and ancients when his other 2 cores can take the available lanes. sometimes he even leaves lanes for the supports to take too. obviously he will take the lane if he is the only one who can take advantage of the enemy's position, thats what a furion does. but that isnt what im talking about. and i hope your last sentence is a mistake because otherwise the stupidity in your post reaches baffling levels.
On August 15 2013 21:03 734pot wrote: Unless I'm pretty assured of getting a lot of early kills with rocket laser I find it pretty risky to go for it. March is actually pretty good in low-mid tier pubs imo, people nearly always underestimate its power, and I find i nearly always get a decent timing on my travels if I get it.
How effective is manta on tinker? I've never actually tried it, but from what I've seen its sort of a pretty old school build.
back when you could rearm bkb and there was no ghost scepter/eblade, manta was usually the 5th/6th item. "carry" tinker build. just bkb manta hex shiva throw all your spells and repeat. was actually pretty strong, not so much anymore
I'm not sure how nuts tinker would be if you could rearm bkb since with it down to 4 seconds there is not a lot of leeway there, but I suppose the ability to TP into a lane BKB'd, and never have it come off, makes him basically ungankable.
I mean, tinker already needs about 18 million gold and its not like he is particularly gankable once he gets blink right now...
The reason I'm thinking about it is because tinker had a really bad winrate at TI3 and is not particularly picked up much.
? wtf are you talking about. im not saying bulldog never farms lanes you idiot. im saying he prioritises farming jungles and ancients when his other 2 cores can take the available lanes. sometimes he even leaves lanes for the supports to take too. obviously he will take the lane if he is the only one who can take advantage of the enemy's position, thats what a furion does. but that isnt what im talking about. and i hope your last sentence is a mistake because otherwise the stupidity in your post reaches baffling levels.
First, let's make this clear, the REASON Tinker counters Furion so well is that he nullifies his ability to split push down towers, and to a lesser extent, to split push in general. Whereas other heroes must waste a tp, removing a hero from the teamfight, Tinker doesn't have that problem.
You initially suggested that Tinker doesn't counter him because he jungles. That has nothing to do with anything.
My last sentence was not a mistake. I have never seen a Furion, in pubs or in competitive matches split farm AS OPPOSED to jungling. This is an utter strawman argument. They always start out jungling.
So perhaps then, you meant Furion jungles then continually splits farms lanes for the rest of the game. So why does Tinker counter him specifically in that situation and not the split pushing one? Is it because he's vulnerable "more often"? Because when you're dealing with a global presence, there's no such thing as degrees of vulnerability, you either are or you aren't.
By that logic kotl and wisp are also counters to furion because they can instantly bring someone into a fight who is on the other side of the map disrupting furions pushes. Being able to handle furions split pushing doesnt make u a counter to him. A counter to someone is a hero who is capable of absolutely destroying an enemy heros chances of getting levels and items or nullifying the heros impact in games. Tinker cant do this if furion just sits in jungles and farms. Being able to handle one aspect of furions gameplay doesnt make you a counter.
? wtf are you talking about. im not saying bulldog never farms lanes you idiot. im saying he prioritises farming jungles and ancients when his other 2 cores can take the available lanes. sometimes he even leaves lanes for the supports to take too. obviously he will take the lane if he is the only one who can take advantage of the enemy's position, thats what a furion does. but that isnt what im talking about. and i hope your last sentence is a mistake because otherwise the stupidity in your post reaches baffling levels.
First, let's make this clear, the REASON Tinker counters Furion so well is that he nullifies his ability to split push down towers, and to a lesser extent, to split push in general. Whereas other heroes must waste a tp, removing a hero from the teamfight, Tinker doesn't have that problem.
You initially suggested that Tinker doesn't counter him because he jungles. That has nothing to do with anything.
My last sentence was not a mistake. I have never seen a Furion, in pubs or in competitive matches split farm AS OPPOSED to jungling. This is an utter strawman argument. They always start out jungling.
So perhaps then, you meant Furion jungles then continually splits farms lanes for the rest of the game. So why does Tinker counter him specifically in that situation and not the split pushing one? Is it because he's vulnerable "more often"? Because when you're dealing with a global presence, there's no such thing as degrees of vulnerability, you either are or you aren't.
Tinker only counters Furion's ability to split push down towers if he can beat him in a 1v1 manfight. Obviously this varies game-to-game, but just getting to the other side to combat the split push is only half the battle. The other half is making sure you have the firepower to drive Furion off.
On August 16 2013 13:11 evilfatsh1t wrote: By that logic kotl and wisp are also counters to furion because they can instantly bring someone into a fight who is on the other side of the map disrupting furions pushes. Being able to handle furions split pushing doesnt make u a counter to him. A counter to someone is a hero who is capable of absolutely destroying an enemy heros chances of getting levels and items or nullifying the heros impact in games. Tinker cant do this if furion just sits in jungles and farms. Being able to handle one aspect of furions gameplay doesnt make you a counter.
A "Counter" is if one hero is one team, it decreases the winrate of the hero on the opposing team. It's not about "destroying" them. Shadow Demon Counters Naix, Naix however will always wreck SD's face in in a 1v1 fight.
In this respect, Wisp and Tinker are considered strong counters to Furion in competitive play, and Kotl is a soft counter. Furion's teamfight presence is one of the lowest in the entire game, even with farm. If it weren't for his split pushing ability he'd never be picked. It's not just "one aspect" of the hero, it's a significant one.
Tinker only counters Furion's ability to split push down towers if he can beat him in a 1v1 manfight. Obviously this varies game-to-game, but just getting to the other side to combat the split push is only half the battle. The other half is making sure you have the firepower to drive Furion off.
That's just not true at all. Blink/Marching can ward off his pushes trivially even with half the farm of a furion.
My only comment is that Furion (once hex is acquired) has a lot of tools to punish tinker for tp'ing to an "open" lane. Even if you blink into the trees, prophet has 2 skills that let him scout the trees (break them with treants, plus sprout gives vision).
Prior to a hex/orchid on furion, a tinker has laser which takes away furions main dmg, his attack, furion isn't particularly tanky either so tinker nukes him well. He doesn't have an innate escape nor particularly good movespeed, his main advantage is global presence, however since tinker can follow him everywhere this makes him very weak to tinker.
A furion with hex or orchid can cause some trouble for a tinker, but once tinker follows up with his own hex furion gets destroyed by tinker, also a tinker often opts for a ghost scepter which makes furions autoattack useless yet again.
Tinker is definitely a counter to furion, in the sense that at every stage of the game tinker can greatly reduce the impact a furion has, from beating him early due to nukes and blind and being able to follow him once BoT is acquired, then mid game tinker can prevent most of his dmg output with laser in teamfights and with a ghost scepter is pretty much able to 1v1 him at all times and thus stopping all his pushes, late game tinker is very strong and can disable him through either hex or e-blade for fights, and can easily kill him with perma hex and nuke.
On August 16 2013 13:11 evilfatsh1t wrote: By that logic kotl and wisp are also counters to furion because they can instantly bring someone into a fight who is on the other side of the map disrupting furions pushes. Being able to handle furions split pushing doesnt make u a counter to him. A counter to someone is a hero who is capable of absolutely destroying an enemy heros chances of getting levels and items or nullifying the heros impact in games. Tinker cant do this if furion just sits in jungles and farms. Being able to handle one aspect of furions gameplay doesnt make you a counter.
A "Counter" is if one hero is one team, it decreases the winrate of the hero on the opposing team. It's not about "destroying" them. Shadow Demon Counters Naix, Naix however will always wreck SD's face in in a 1v1 fight.
In this respect, Wisp and Tinker are considered strong counters to Furion in competitive play, and Kotl is a soft counter. Furion's teamfight presence is one of the lowest in the entire game, even with farm. If it weren't for his split pushing ability he'd never be picked. It's not just "one aspect" of the hero, it's a significant one.
Tinker only counters Furion's ability to split push down towers if he can beat him in a 1v1 manfight. Obviously this varies game-to-game, but just getting to the other side to combat the split push is only half the battle. The other half is making sure you have the firepower to drive Furion off.
That's just not true at all. Blink/Marching can ward off his pushes trivially even with half the farm of a furion.
what the hell does winrate have to do with anything? a hero (a) could totally shutdown another hero (b) and still lose the game. that doesnt mean that (a) isnt a counter to (b). it just means you lost the game. and did you even read what i said? i never said anything about destroying a hero in a 1v1 manfight. you dont have to be able to instajib a hero to be considered a counter. if you reduce the hero's impact in the game to basically nothing, you are considered a counter. for example, doom is considered a counter to many big ulti heroes because thats all they have to offer in a fight and 1 doom renders you useless. picking a tinker against a furion doesnt render furion useless. he will still farm items, he will possibly be able to outright kill you in a 1v1 situation, and he will have an impact in teamfights. if you think furions have no impact in teamfights then you clearly have no idea what youre talking about. furions buy items like hex for a reason
On August 17 2013 02:58 NTTemplar wrote: Prior to a hex/orchid on furion, a tinker has laser which takes away furions main dmg, his attack, furion isn't particularly tanky either so tinker nukes him well. He doesn't have an innate escape nor particularly good movespeed, his main advantage is global presence, however since tinker can follow him everywhere this makes him very weak to tinker.
A furion with hex or orchid can cause some trouble for a tinker, but once tinker follows up with his own hex furion gets destroyed by tinker, also a tinker often opts for a ghost scepter which makes furions autoattack useless yet again.
Tinker is definitely a counter to furion, in the sense that at every stage of the game tinker can greatly reduce the impact a furion has, from beating him early due to nukes and blind and being able to follow him once BoT is acquired, then mid game tinker can prevent most of his dmg output with laser in teamfights and with a ghost scepter is pretty much able to 1v1 him at all times and thus stopping all his pushes, late game tinker is very strong and can disable him through either hex or e-blade for fights, and can easily kill him with perma hex and nuke.
seems easy on paper. how many times have you seen a tinker outfarm a furion without getting fed? how many times have you seen a tinker solo kill a furion that has equal farm, let alone a furion who is outfarming you. worst case scenario for the furion is he will just run, because you have nothing to stop him. how do you intend on following furion around everywhere when he decides to just farm ancients and jungles? tinker cant keep up with furions farm no matter how hard he tries, all he can do is mitigate the damage furion does to towers. once again, split pushing is only half of furions game. the other half is him showing up at a teamfight with an earlier mek than your team's, or an earlier hex than your team's.
seems easy on paper. how many times have you seen a tinker outfarm a furion without getting fed? how many times have you seen a tinker solo kill a furion that has equal farm, let alone a furion who is outfarming you. worst case scenario for the furion is he will just run, because you have nothing to stop him. how do you intend on following furion around everywhere when he decides to just farm ancients and jungles? tinker cant keep up with furions farm no matter how hard he tries, all he can do is mitigate the damage furion does to towers. once again, split pushing is only half of furions game. the other half is him showing up at a teamfight with an earlier mek than your team's, or an earlier hex than your team's.
A tinker doesn't need to "outfarm" a furion to beat him solo. Tentatively I'd say as long as tinker's within 100-150 gpm of furion then he'll probably win any 1v1, but that's really off topic here.
Furion isn't running very far when he's perma sheeped.
Again, Furion split pushing is WHY he is drafted. He turns many fights from 5v5s into 5v4s or worse. In a straight up 5v5 Furion's team presence is near the bottom of the list. I mean, wtf, this isn't even a debatable fact, this is the cost of drafting him and many teams cannot do it if they find they're lacking in teamfight ability. Great, he has a hex. Tinker has 3 hexes and a lot more damage.
On August 17 2013 02:58 NTTemplar wrote: Prior to a hex/orchid on furion, a tinker has laser which takes away furions main dmg, his attack, furion isn't particularly tanky either so tinker nukes him well. He doesn't have an innate escape nor particularly good movespeed, his main advantage is global presence, however since tinker can follow him everywhere this makes him very weak to tinker.
A furion with hex or orchid can cause some trouble for a tinker, but once tinker follows up with his own hex furion gets destroyed by tinker, also a tinker often opts for a ghost scepter which makes furions autoattack useless yet again.
Tinker is definitely a counter to furion, in the sense that at every stage of the game tinker can greatly reduce the impact a furion has, from beating him early due to nukes and blind and being able to follow him once BoT is acquired, then mid game tinker can prevent most of his dmg output with laser in teamfights and with a ghost scepter is pretty much able to 1v1 him at all times and thus stopping all his pushes, late game tinker is very strong and can disable him through either hex or e-blade for fights, and can easily kill him with perma hex and nuke.
seems easy on paper. how many times have you seen a tinker outfarm a furion without getting fed? how many times have you seen a tinker solo kill a furion that has equal farm, let alone a furion who is outfarming you. worst case scenario for the furion is he will just run, because you have nothing to stop him. how do you intend on following furion around everywhere when he decides to just farm ancients and jungles? tinker cant keep up with furions farm no matter how hard he tries, all he can do is mitigate the damage furion does to towers. once again, split pushing is only half of furions game. the other half is him showing up at a teamfight with an earlier mek than your team's, or an earlier hex than your team's.
That is not "seems easy on paper", that is my experiance playing tinker against a furion. Furion has to run from tinker at all stages of the game unless he is fed and thus way ahead or he has teammates.
I have solo killed a furion with equal farm and more farm many times, with hex it is very easy, if I opt for dagon and we are in the mid game then I either make him run early, run with really low hp, or die in a 1v1.
Only if he has backup or is fed does he stand a chance 1v1, with teammates he many times can kill me (due to the teammate not furion), but if he is fed and 1v1 then he has to kill me during hex to beat me most of the time, so even when fed furion doesn't roll over tinker.
And to note on farm, a furion does farm faster due to ulti, but a tinker still clears jungle, ancients and lanes faster making him able to very comfortably keep up.
Tinker that goes for laser rocket with bot bottle soul ring and blink is 400 short of a furion with treads midas and shadow blade. Have fun killing that. Also, because you went laser rocket have fun trying to comfortably keep up with farm when youre throwing lvl 1 marches everywhere. Why do you assume furion is just going to stand in lane and let you tp to his face and 'perma hex' him. If that happens in your games a lot i question the quality of your opponents.
Oops i forgot to factor in the cost of brown boots for tinker. So now his items not only cost more but he gets them slower courtesy of midas. Good luck keeping up in farm if you went laser rocket once again. Good luck killing him at all if you went march
On August 17 2013 10:07 evilfatsh1t wrote: Tinker that goes for laser rocket with bot bottle soul ring and blink is 400 short of a furion with treads midas and shadow blade. Have fun killing that. Also, because you went laser rocket have fun trying to comfortably keep up with farm when youre throwing lvl 1 marches everywhere. Why do you assume furion is just going to stand in lane and let you tp to his face and 'perma hex' him. If that happens in your games a lot i question the quality of your opponents.
Oops i forgot to factor in the cost of brown boots for tinker. So now his items not only cost more but he gets them slower courtesy of midas. Good luck keeping up in farm if you went laser rocket once again. Good luck killing him at all if you went march
At 18-19m I normally have midas, bottle, BoT, soul ring, blink; 4 march, 4 rocket, 4 laser and 1/2 rearm. While a furion at this point usually has midas, threads, shadow blade and a part of a big item.
So I can keep up in farm due to march and midas, and I can kill him due to rocket laser. I don't assume he will stand there, quite the contrary furions I have met usually pop their shadowblade immediatly and run/TP/Sprout, some combination of that; so I buy dust and I TP on the wave behind, run for 10 sec then blink on him dust,(possibly march depending on positions), rocket, laser, rearm, blink, rocket, laser then either auto attack, march or rearm depending on the situation. Assuming he gets no backup, since then I run.
Now that combo kills him sometimes and other times makes him run at low hp, however considering this is the point I find furion the strongest in relation to tinker, the point between furion having shadow blade and tinker not having dagon/hex, I don't really see furion being able to deal with tinker when he still has to run at this point.
Even if he gets a hex after sb he won't have the dmg to kill tinker alone, and now with most likely rearm 3: dust, rocket, dagon, blink, rearm, rocket, blink, dagon, rearm, rocket, dagon kills him. This allows tinker to stay in fog almost all the time greatly reducing chance of being hexed, it is still a bit difficult to kill him due to hex, since if he lands it he survives. But not as hard as earlier.
Now if tinker has hex everything is different, you can just TP wave behind, run and blink in his face and hex him, if he doesn't get backup within the next 10 sec then he is dead, no need for dust or saving blink for after the first round of nukes when you have hex. If really paranoid about being spotted due to something, then just buy a smoke at this point.
are you kidding me? dota isnt starcraft. you cant pick a build order and know already how the game is going to be played out 5-10mins from now. thats not how dota works, and the fact that you think you will be able to farm the same items at the same timings and then purely theorycraft on how you will be able to kill furion just shows how little your knowledge of dota actually is. i could make up an argument right now about how furion could prevent being jumped on by tinker even if he tp's to the wave behind etc etc, but i dont want to turn this discussion into a "if he does this maybe he will be able to kill so and so, and if so and so does this maybe he will be able to successfully dodge tinker". i give up trying to convince you guys so unless someone else comes with something new to say im gonna stop here.
On August 17 2013 17:45 evilfatsh1t wrote: are you kidding me? dota isnt starcraft. you cant pick a build order and know already how the game is going to be played out 5-10mins from now. thats not how dota works, and the fact that you think you will be able to farm the same items at the same timings and then purely theorycraft on how you will be able to kill furion just shows how little your knowledge of dota actually is. i could make up an argument right now about how furion could prevent being jumped on by tinker even if he tp's to the wave behind etc etc, but i dont want to turn this discussion into a "if he does this maybe he will be able to kill so and so, and if so and so does this maybe he will be able to successfully dodge tinker". i give up trying to convince you guys so unless someone else comes with something new to say im gonna stop here.
Why do you keep saying I theorycraft? This is my EXPERIANCE playing tinker over 700 times in dota 2 alone, with several dousen games against furion.
My item timings are not theorycrafting, they are my averages over last hundred something games at least.
My explanations against furion is a simple walkthrough of how I have PREVIOUSLY encountered furion, as in scenarios that actually unfolded in a real game, not just written down on paper.
edit: also please make up an arguement how furion prevents being jumped by tinker
uh furion makes it makes it much easier to gank tinker, esp early game also he stops tinker splitpush pretty handily so idk how you can consider that a counter
I've read most of the posts here. I started to play Tinker over and over again lately. I max Laser and Rockets until level 8, then one level of Re-arm, then maxing March after...
Is this bad? I mean I only play solo queue pubs, high/very high bracket.
It's either a bad or good game for me. Really depends when I can get my team mates some farm from killing heroes early or just farming the BoTs early even without March yet.
the build itself isnt bad. its how well you can play the hero with that build. if you find your supports are very active and you have a lot of map control laser rocket will dominate the early game for you. getting lvl 2 rearm at lvl 11 is better than waiting to max all 3 skills though.
On August 18 2013 03:34 evilfatsh1t wrote: the build itself isnt bad. its how well you can play the hero with that build. if you find your supports are very active and you have a lot of map control laser rocket will dominate the early game for you. getting lvl 2 rearm at lvl 11 is better than waiting to max all 3 skills though.
I max laser first ASAP then rocket, so by level 8 they are maxed. Then I get re-arm at level 9, then next 4 levels is march.
As far as item goes, I just rush BoTs (bottle first if mid), then get Hex.
I haven't tried Dagon build at all, but sounds fun. Just worried I won't have enough mana anyway and plus that means I gotta gank instead of split pushing.
getting 2 lvls of rearm will help you kill things a lot better than an earlier max in march. you also farm faster with 2 lvls of rearm. if you go rocket laser you should be focusing on ganking anyway, as you are a terrible split pusher with low march lvls. also since youre going back to base all the time it doesnt really matter if you run out of mana, just as long as you have enough mana to cast a 2nd round after 1 rearm. get a soul ring too, it helps mitigate the mana cost for rearm
Tinker really isn't a great split pusher in general. Sure he can clear waves anywhere he pleases but it's a slow arduous process to get the tower. General rule of thumb with rearm is at 1k mana, get level 2, at 1.5k mana get level 3.
On August 18 2013 07:02 Jrix wrote: Tinker really isn't a great split pusher in general. Sure he can clear waves anywhere he pleases but it's a slow arduous process to get the tower. General rule of thumb with rearm is at 1k mana, get level 2, at 1.5k mana get level 3.
Yeah I feel like tinker is great at stopping/slowing pushes but a mediocre split pusher. If the other team is pushing you should probably be slowing them down, not clearing waves in another lane.
He's definitely not the best at pushing towers, but he is good at keeping your side lanes pushed right up. The general idea being, the further your lanes are pushed, the more map control you have and the safer it is for your team to farm. The absence of enemy heroes farming the creeps constantly whacking at the their T2/3's makes it much easier to tell if there is a gank heading your way.
How about a necronomicon to improve split pushing? I haven't actually tried this, and given that it doesn't work with rearm it might not be the first item that comes to mind. But I could certainly see it would be very useful in some cases.
On August 20 2013 19:27 FreeZer wrote: How about a necronomicon to improve split pushing? I haven't actually tried this, and given that it doesn't work with rearm it might not be the first item that comes to mind. But I could certainly see it would be very useful in some cases.
Not sure if you could justify the cost (or its item slot for that matter) given all of the other great Tinker items that are available.
On August 20 2013 19:27 FreeZer wrote: How about a necronomicon to improve split pushing? I haven't actually tried this, and given that it doesn't work with rearm it might not be the first item that comes to mind. But I could certainly see it would be very useful in some cases.
If you truly need a split pushing item , it should be manta style, considering that it could be rearmed. Necronomicon has too long a cooldown for it to be an effective split pushing item.
On August 18 2013 07:02 Jrix wrote: Tinker really isn't a great split pusher in general. Sure he can clear waves anywhere he pleases but it's a slow arduous process to get the tower. General rule of thumb with rearm is at 1k mana, get level 2, at 1.5k mana get level 3.
I wish everyone was aware of this. Played tinker about 100 times and I still get moaned at about why enemy racks/towers are still standing in games.
No one seems to grasp the fact that killing building takes all day with tinker, hes not natures prophet, you basically just clear the creeps and leave it to the catapults.
EPT
