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[Hero] Razor

Forum Index > Dota 2 Strategy
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Laserist
Profile Joined September 2011
Turkey4269 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-27 17:00:15
September 10 2013 17:34 GMT
#1
Disclaimer

+ Show Spoiler +
I am Laserist, 26. I play solo High(middle to top) and Very High(probably bottom) skill games in EU. This guide is intended for new and intermediate players but experienced players may find useful things here and there. I'll try to stay away from standard/boring stuff but you know. Description/Information parts are heavily copy/pasted and validated from 4 different sources, no shame here. I appreciate any positive criticism and feedback. Bear in mind that English is not my main. Have fun.


Table of Contents
I. Introduction
II. Skill Builds
III. Item Builds
IV. How to play
V. Replays
VI. Conclusion
VII. FAQ
VIII. Changelog
IX. Credits



Razor , The Lightning Revenant


I. Introduction

[image loading]
Official Bio
+ Show Spoiler +
Among the emblematic powers that populate the Underscape, Razor the Lightning Revenant is one of the most feared. With his whip of lightning, he patrols the Narrow Maze, that treacherous webwork of passages by which the souls of the dead are sorted according to their own innate intelligence, cunning and persistence. Drifting above the Maze, Razor looks down on the baffled souls below, and delivers jolts of scalding electricity that both punish and quicken the souls as they decide their own fates, hurrying on toward luminous exits or endlessly dark pits. Razor is the eternal embodiment of a dominating power, abstract and almost clinical in his application of power. Yet he has a lordly air that suggests he takes a sardonic satisfaction in his work.

Stats
[image loading]       [image loading]        [image loading]
21+1.7        22+2        19+1.8

[image loading]      [image loading]      [image loading]
295 ms      2.08 armor      23-25 base dmg

My Foreword on Razor
+ Show Spoiler +
Razor is a range semi-carry hero and deemed as Carry/Durable/Nuker in game. Although the definition is true, general play style of Razor is a lot different than traditional agility carries. Conventional agility carries are mostly weaker in early game, have little to no disable and heavily rely on having many items and levels. Mainly their damage comes from heavy items which generally acquired after 25-30 minutes

Skillset of Razor separates the hero from other carries because the mentality of the play shifts from 'farming damage items' to 'be tankier and faster early'. Because of this, Razor comes online earlier than most carries and should be played accordingly. Although he has no reliable disable/slow, his laning can be considered strong because of the synergy with the other popular laner friends and skill set.


When should I pick Razor?
- Like playing carries but bored of 50 min farmville
- Need a chaser/nuker/early damage dealer
- Need a semi-carry to keep enemy on toes while main carry becomes a monster
- Enemy has a physical dps dealer needs to be stopped
- Have disabler and crowd controllers in team but lack an early huge dps dealer

When should I not pick Razor?
- Enemy has too much burst damage and/or too much mobility
- Your team desperately needs disable and/or crowd control
- Against a heavy pushing line-up
- Have a game plan on dragging game long with passive/defensive early to mid game.

Advantages
- Good synergy in skillset
- Insane movement speed with passive
- Good AOE nuking capability
- Static link gives insane dps early and stays strong all stages of the game
- Fast attack and spell animation


Disadvantages
- Pathetic stat growth
- No disable/slow
- Below average base damage
- Need items to stay in fights
- Hard to lane with some line-ups, requires team synergy to be effective


Hero Synergy
Good Allies
Any disable/slow hero,as usual, benefits him greatly. Crystal Maiden, Shadow Shaman, Bane, Lion, Shadow Demon, Rubick, Vengeful Spirit, Nyx are first come to mind. Negative armor buffs are great to since you deal mostly physical considering static link. Slardar, Shadow Fiend etc. may be useful.
Bad Enemies
I couldn't think a counter-Razor hero right of he bat. But blinkers and 'too fast' heroes are annoying. QoP, AM, Clinkz, Weaver, Puck, Mirana, Storm etc. are hard to chase and deal damage.
Bloodseeker, OD negates your chasing and make you have hard time. Juggernaut, Huskar & Luna are definitely deserve attention due to high burst damage in 1v1 case.
Worth to try / Brainstorm
+ Show Spoiler +
I know, with Dazzle + Razor, it is hard to maintain a strong lane presence compare with popular laners but Dazzle can keep Razor alive more than anyone can. Also slow and heal look promising with Razor's skill set.
Although, Tusk and Disruptor may look different, their lock down skills allow Razor to accumulate damage and unleash the full potential.




Razor Wiki

[image loading]
Plasma Field
Releases a wave of energetic plasma that grows in power as it expands, but also zaps on contraction, dealing damage to enemy units caught in its path. Damage increases with distance from Razor.

Skill info
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Mana cost: 125
Cooldown: 14

Damage type: Magical
Damage Min: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180
Damage Max: 160 / 230 / 300 / 370
Radius: 700

Damage is blocked by magic immunity
Plasma Field gives vision as it expands


My thoughts
+ Show Spoiler +
A very good AOE nuke early on gives you good damage & vision with no casting animation/time. Completely synergies with skill set, let you initiate from far and nuke down the fleeing enemies. Mana cost generally a problem due to bad stats in early game so use it wisely. Also landing max damage requires some training and prediction of enemy movements. I advise you to use when chasing not for nuking down the creeps early on.




[image loading]
Static Link
Creates a charged link between Razor and an enemy Hero, stealing damage from the target and giving it to Razor.

Skill info
+ Show Spoiler +
Mana cost: 20/30/40/50
Cooldown: 25

Range: 600
Damage Drain Duration: 8
Buff Duration: 18
Damage Stolen Per Second: 7/14/21/28 (max. 56/112/168/224 damage)

The link is broken when either unit dies or the distance between them becomes greater than 675.
Cannot be blocked by magic immunity or Linken's Sphere
Cannot be purged
Cannot be used by illusions
Losing vision of target does not break the link



My thoughts
+ Show Spoiler +
The skill defines the Razor. A BKB piercing link bounds the enemy to you and lets you to steal the damage from it. Static link may give you insane damage early on and punishes the positional mistakes hard. Usage is somewhat tricky: It has a 600 connection, 675 release range which indicates it should not be used at max range. I suggest to use it at least at half range(~300). Even though you somewhat disabled, Unstable Current keeps the connection stable. Also keep in mind, the animation cancelling and attack while moving at the same time.
Activate it before the disable lands on you because Link cannot be disabled after started and stays until release range is reached.
Also you can track invis. heroes and heroes in fog that makes Razor impossible to juke.




[image loading]
Unstable Current
As Razor moves with increased speed, any abilites targeted on him are countered with an instant jolt of damaging and slowing electricity.

Skill info
+ Show Spoiler +
Passive

Damage type: Magical
Damage: 40 / 70 / 100 / 130
Bonus Movement Speed: 4% / 8% / 12% / 16%
Slow Duration: 0.4 / 0.8 / 1.2 / 1.6
Movement Slow: 100%
Attack Slow: 100

Purges enemies & removing buffs
Illusions also get this ability.
Blocked by Magic Immunity.
Can be Purged
Only activates if the caster is a hero unit.
Damage activates when the ability cast on Razor begins its effect.
Does not work against arrow effects.


My thoughts
+ Show Spoiler +
The passive activates when a target spell is casted on you. Any target stun, disable & debuff damages, purges and slows the caster. Some target point spells (like sand king's burrow) also activate it if pointed to Razor rather than ground.
Not useful early on. Having nuke and link is more useful early but as the game drags, bonus movement and purge proves their use. Remember, purge slows both movement and attack speed and debuff the steroids on the attacker. This skill makes the opponent harder to focus you with single target spells which is needed in mid game/team fight scenarios. Bonus movement lets you chase the enemies better.




[image loading]
Eye of the Storm
A powerful lightning storm strikes out at enemy units with the lowest health, dealing damage and reducing their armor. Upgradable by Aghanim's Scepter.

Skill info
+ Show Spoiler +
Mana cost: 100/150/200
Cooldown: 80/70/60
Radius: 500 for units/380 for buildings (see spoiler)
Duration: 30
Damage Per Strike: 37.5/50/62.5
Armor Reduced Per Strike: 1
Strike Interval: 0.7/0.6/0.5 (0.55/0.45/0.35 w/ aghanim)

Each blast targets the lowest health enemy unit within range
Eye of the Storm does not lower the armor of structures
Damage on buildings is not reduced by siege armor type
The negative armor debuff is removed once the spell's duration is over or if Razor dies
The triggered (center to center) area of effect is the same for buildings, the difference is existent because of difference in collision size.
Strike about 42/50/60 (54/66/85 w/ agh) times over its duration, allowing a total damage of about 1600/2500/3700 (2000/3300/5300 w/ agh)


My thoughts
+ Show Spoiler +
A nice ultimate, although tricky to use, gives you good solo damage potential. Negative armor debuff gets stronger as the lightning hits. Should be used far from creeps if necessary and activated early due to the animation. It is not a good idea to active in the middle of the chase. Since it targets the lowest HP target around, most of the time this target appears to be a creep. Aghanim improves it considerably but not too reliable overall to center the game plan on it. Another reason to stay alive longer.


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II. Skill Builds

Overall Early Nuker - Chaser
1. Plasma Field
2. Static Link
3. Plasma Field
4. Static Link
5. Plasma Field
6. Eye of the Storm
7. Plasma Field
8. Static Link
9. Unstable Current
10. Static Link
11. Eye of the Storm
12. Unstable Current
13. Unstable Current
14. Unstable Current
15. Stats
16. Eye of the Storm
17-25. Stats

Not too much deviation is possible in this skill build in my opinion. Max AOE is first to go. Even though a 2 level of Static link looks good; the higher it is the more damage you deal especially with a disabler near you. Most of the time, in early game, you need every bit of damage you deal to grab a kill. You can skip passive at level 9 and stats instead but one level may result a life/dead scenario in early to mid game.

I suggest aggressive players to switch link with plasma because you can deal more reliable damage against a manfight line-up. Link is more spammable, gives better melee combat capability and lets you harass enemy while giving you a better lane control.

Only major deviation I would think is to spare ulti until level 10 and target 4-4-1-0 at level 9. As I said, ulti is tricky to use and you rely too much on opponents mistakes to make use of level 1 ulti.

Razor Skill Build Stats - The International 2013 & Pro games
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I would love to put all the tables here but they are too complicated to summarize in a graph. Refer datdota.com to track all the stats and I would like thank them to provide the stats for us to analyze.

A vast majority of the time pro players start with link and prefer plasma over passive. There are a few matches that we can see passive in first 6 levels but general trend tells us, Link and Plasma should be maxed early while ulti is taken at level 6.



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III. Item Builds

Starting Items
Overall safe or mid survival items:
[image loading][image loading][image loading]
[image loading][image loading][image loading]
Basic survival items can be used by any hero to stay in lane longer. Use this without any question if you are new.

Alternative :
[image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading]
Provides regen, armor and leads to Ring of Basilius next.

For mid lane - bottle rush:
[image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading]
Standard bottle rush build to lets you spam the nuke early on. Don't you this if you are not confident enough that you can buy bottle before 2 min. Lesser reg. may devastate your laning.

For mid lane - no rune control is expected:
[image loading][image loading][image loading]
My invoker starting items. Provides less regen but better last hitting. Also leads to a faster phase boots if preferred. You don't have quas, be careful.



Boots
[image loading]
My suggestion is Phase because of the damage it provides and the move speed it gives. Also lets you chase enemies better without getting intimate with creeps and escape when needed. Razor activates in early to mid game and needs as much damage as he can deal. Phase gives you the critical damage threshold you need. Rush it if you are not in dire situation in the lane.

[image loading]
Even though the attack speed and the stats are good at first, I put PT below phase due to the speed bonus. Razor should be as fast as possible and ride the lightning chase with his purple boots.

I reject other boots as starter and only accept late game BoT because it saves a tp slot, lets you teleport to a creep and makes Razor the fastest being in entire universe.

Core

[image loading]

If you are in mid lane and the opponent is not a blinker, proceed with bottle as usual. Aim it before the boots if you can.

[image loading] or/and [image loading] and [image loading]

I put 'or' between them but acquire both of them if you can. Power of Razor comes from staying in fights as long as you can and steal damage as much as you can. Unlike other traditional carries, Razor needs survival items rather than damage items. Static link maximum charge gives you 224 extra damage! At level 7 you should have around 60-85 base damage, no brainer here.
Drum gives both sick stats and move speed aura, a perfect combo. I suggest bracer first until you are uncontested in lane and last hit freely.
Some people underestimate the casual Vitality booster but it gives you awesome 250 hp and later can be turned into a heart. 250 hp means that you can chew a 333.3 damage spell extra with a grin in your face.
Wand is a straight forward early regen and stat item everyone should consider to buy early. Full wand early provides insane mana and HP boost compared to your pool.

Special mention:

[image loading] into [image loading]

Some people are used to traditions and traditions are hard to break. Even though I like the +6 damage RoB gives for nothing with +2 armor and mana regen, compile it to RoA is not the path I'd suggest. RoA is worth 985 and provide damage and mere stats that do not pay off. Also you gain only 3 strength for the cost which I prefer bracer into drum any day. Leave it as RoB for the damage it gives to secure last hits and proceed to drums.



Late game

[image loading][image loading][image loading]
[image loading]

See the pattern here? Choose BKB against lock down/disabler line-ups and Manta (or naked yasha) for the opposite. The opponent dictates how much tankier you go or when to turn into some more damage/IAS.

If you find a treasure chest early, rather go for heart or butterfly. But don't rush for them earlier than you could. I'd either go BKB-Heart-Butter or Heart-Manta-Butter, in that order.



Optional Items

[image loading]

Scepter boosts the ultimate to extremes but I find it too unreliable to invest that much gold. It can be chosen as 5th item or for more fun builds. Damage to buildings in you attack range without any armor reduction is shiny but most of the time useless at the point of time you purchase this.

[image loading]

Already tanky enough and need a cheap source or damage? Warning, a few lucky max charged hit may cause rage quits.

[image loading]

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced how good it is. Both give hp you need, an unreliable slow and evasion perfectly mutual with Razor's skill set. The drawback is until mid-to-late game, the 1800 gp you spend on talisman doesn't pay off itself. This is because due to the nature of the game where in early-to-mid game, nukes and disables are more dominant as damage sources. Leave it as sange as HP and damage source.

[image loading]

Mighty AC. Gives you good armor, attack speed and negative armor aura which you can benefit all of them. Doesn't give any protection against nukers but right clickers will have hard time to bring you down. Purchase after HP items if you want.

[image loading]
Well I spare this part for my fun item. Maelstrom gives you attack speed and damage as well as a fast farming tool. Also turns you to a storm cloud creature, fun to play even though provide no HP. Try when playing ahead.



Back-up items

I put this section to mention the positions that you wouldn't like to be in. Laning and mid game don't always go as smooth as you may think. It is possible to nullify one physical dps source but what if against 2+ core setups?

[image loading] + [image loading] ---> [image loading]

I question myself hard to put Mek into the core items list but I prefer current core items above Mek. It provides good armor(eHP), regen and easy to build, but you lack 'real' HP to endure nukes. Heal is beneficial for team but lose it's value in time. There should be better candidates for Mek. rather than Razor in a team.

[image loading]

Sometimes you try to hang onto the game by being over aggressive in general to pull the opponent down when behind. Ease of compiling and 'deso' effect it gives may help you to secure some kills. Razor likes negative armor(not HP level love) with the insane stolen damage.



Rejected Items

[image loading]

Popular but no. OK, BM takes attention from you for a few seconds but provides nothing more than that. Decent opponents will refuse to attack you then burst you down with your paper HP. You are too susceptible against nukes with pathetic stats.

[image loading]

Makes you tanky but Razor benefits less from it. Any gp spend on regen is mostly wasted for Razor at the stage of the game you acquire Vanguard. Leave booster naked and later on buy a heart instead.

[image loading]
Leech damage while invisible and being faster looks promising at first sight. But not hitting while stealing damage and a 185 gp dust, invalidate all the efforts and gold to buy the item. Also you should not be the one that initiate the fight by yourself. What are you, Naix?

[image loading]

Purge & damage is good but gives you no HP. You already have high dps and purge early on. Also you don't attack that fast to drain enemy's mana. So no.

[image loading]

Again, no HP syndrome. You hit hard but you die fast. Go for a medallion next time, 100 times cheaper.

[image loading]

Jack-of-all-trades but master of none item. Still recommended in-game but sange can be turned into a Heaven's Halberd and Yasha can be Manta later on assuming your dog purchase them for you while you are afk. There is no point to seal these items into a mere hp/speed item. There are better alternatives early on.

Razor Item Stats - The International 2013
+ Show Spoiler +
Total matches Played: 28
Tango 28
Magic Wand 25
Healing Salve 22
Black King Bar 20
Phase Boots 20
Drum of Endurance 15
Magic Stick 14
Bottle 11
Ring of Basilius 11
Aghanims Scepter 9
Mekansm 5
Buckler 4
Butterfly 4
Ring of Aquila 4
Sange And Yasha 3
Sange 3
Assault Cuirass 2
Tranquil Boots 2
Ghost Scepter 2
Heavens Halberd 2
Headdress 2
Heart of Tarrasque 2
Scythe of Vyse 2
Satanic 1
Daedalus 1

Aside from starters, phase - drum - BKB trio is the most preferred item choice overall. A few Mekanism tries may be in-line with my thoughts. As you see, rarely Razor achieved Chinese-level late game with 6 slots which also proves that Razor should be active sooner than later.



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IV. How do you play?

Laning
For safe lane, keep in mind that you are not the hardest carry that can go toe-to-toe with popular late game monsters. Last hit good, get used to strange projectile, ward off the enemy and keep eye on minimap for missing enemies.

You are vulnerable early on without boots and first HP items. Acquire your boots+drum as fast as you can. Don't ever think to leave the lane before at least level 7 since you are a paper because of poor stats. If you heavily harassed, invest on more consumables to stay in lane and do not lose unnecessary XP.

For mid lane, if you have a possibility to control the runes, go for a bottle and push the lane before the rune spawns(in every 2 minutes) with your AOE nuke.

Otherwise last hit hard and play like you are in safe lane. Ganking should not be your first priority before the basic items. Just mute the guy request ganks starting from 1 min.

A small trick
+ Show Spoiler +
In mid, if you get warded off by strong laner while creeps fighting low ground, give attack the enemy hero from a distance, get back and pull the enemy creeps onto your high ground outside of tower range. Whenever the enemy tries to attack you, will be harassed first by your creeps. Also you can hit the enemy creeps from a safer distance.


Ganking & Skirmish

Not a fan of early ganks but it can be doable, I'll mix it with small skirmishes.

Start your ulti in woods before entering the fight. Activate plasma field to hit at max range while running into the enemy. But it is better to hit than nothing so don't push too hard. Use smoke if necessary.

Link from around ~300 distance or before getting disabled. Link goes through everything and cannot be stopped unless having 675 distance. If chasing needed do it and finish off with the second plasma. Practice animation cancelling.

On animation cancelling
+ Show Spoiler +
Well, for those who don't know animation cancelling, here is a mini guide:
For every attack and spell, there is some action needs to be done by the hero. Once the attack/cast is issued, there is a pre-animation(pre-swing) before it lands. This pre-animation can be stopped by using stop command or issue another order without doing actually nothing. This can be used to trick the enemy, position the spell better or improve the last hit timing.

Secondly the attack or spell lands. Third phase is the post-animation phase which is completely unnecessary to do and can be cancelled by issuing a move command. It requires some finesse to cancel it without not issuing the attack.

Razor stats are: For attack, 0.3s pre-swing and 0.7s back-swing; for spells 0.5s pre-swing & 0.125s back-swing. As you see there is a large time frame of doing nothing after the damage has done and if cancelled properly it allows you to move at least half second more. With the insane move speed, probably you can run toe-to-toe with the enemy while attacking at the same time.


Mid Game
Having core items up with considerable amount of HP indicates, you are ready to unleash your full power. Attend ganks more and try to be in the fights. Always carry TP for counter ganks. Remember you are not designed to sit back and farm so dedicate one of your eye to minimap and watch for enemy movements there.

Late Game
If you are not already in favorable position as a team now, you didn't do your job well. Your max link is still a threat but your tankiness will not be as trustworthy as it is. But keep in mind, so the nukers are. Your best shot is to position well, flank if possible, avoid CC's and stay alive while stealing all the damage from the enemy carry. Probably you don't have any disable item like abyssal/sheep/orchid etc.. so you rely on your teammates' initiation at that phase.

Teamfights
This is the most tricky part of the game play. As Razor, you need to be in the fights as much as you can, and you may think it is a good idea to initiate, right? Yeah, you are supposed to be tanky with your items but still can be bursted down with the first wave.
Ideal scenario: Allow the initiator, if available, to dive first and then dive as second. Activate ulti first then plasma while running into the enemy. Link the enemy carry(if possible) or melee tanky guy(supposed to be alive longer) in their team while slapping down the squishy supports. Activate BKB before the disabling starts, rinse and repeat.

If you sense any CC threat like black hole, RP, chrono etc.. wait back until it happens. Better to stay alive rather than dive and die. If possible flank from behind.

Deciding when & how to enter the fight is the key part of this section and very situational. Need experience, team work and composition.

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V. Replays

Will be added soon.

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VI. Conclusion

Razor playstyle can be defined staying alive, enduring the damage and later unleash the wrath of lightning to the foes. Item progression and game flow should be considered according to survival and dodging while accumulating damage at the same time. Razor has a peak starting from early-to-mid and remains strong until very late game. It is crucial to be in team fights starting from first core item. When and how to engage is a very important topic for Razor due to how link works so prefer flanks and use speed to position yourself.

If I would wrote a Viper guide, it'd be pretty similar to this since he can be played like Razor most of the time. You can apply similar principles to Viper too.

For guide, it takes more than I expected and more boring than I intended. I'll flavor it with some pro/my replays & gameplay pictures later on based on feedback.
If you don't find the guide useful, take it as a collection of data and a hub for discussions on Razor.
Thanks for reading.

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VII. FAQ

N/A yet.

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VIII. Changelog

10-Sep-13 - Initial Release

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IX. Credits

Thanks to Firebolt145 for sharing the guide skeleton which saves a lot of time.

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“Are you with the Cartel? Because you’re definitely an Angel.”
Laserist
Profile Joined September 2011
Turkey4269 Posts
September 10 2013 17:35 GMT
#2
Reserved for valuable comments.
“Are you with the Cartel? Because you’re definitely an Angel.”
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-10 18:15:43
September 10 2013 18:13 GMT
#3
Bottle Rush mid should be avoided, as the majority of Razor matchups are not Bottle-crow stalemate matchups. Tango+Salve+Circlet+3xBranch should be mentioned as an alternative item start as Clarities really are not all that useful mid lane early.

Arcane Boots and Pipe both deserve mentions as situational items (even if you don't make Pipe, there are many situations where a casual Cloak/Hood are reasonable). Sheepstick is not half bad in many situations as well. Diffusal is still situationally buy-able due to the existence of heroes that basically require a targeted Purge to handle comfortably (e.g. Omniknight) even if the item is pretty ineffective outside of that case. Satanic is acceptable as a 6th item if you haven't used your Orb slot for anything else at that point.
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Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
September 10 2013 18:25 GMT
#4
Razor is considered something of a Counter to OD as one of the few heroes who legitimately beats him in lane (Which is key because OD relies quite heavily on winning his lane).

Depending on the importance of being able to push your lane, many razors opt to max link over plasma since it makes any CS battle trivial, even if it only manages to steal one or two ticks, as well as spelling the certain death of enemy heroes that lack escape mechanisms.

One early point in Unstable current is also highly effective in many matchups including vs zeus and vs OD, although its very situational. I'd say that Razor skill builds are, by and large, extremely situational.

PS: pipe is an item that some razors opt to build (although it isn't very commonly seen these days) as a hero that has the farm priority to get it and benefits highly from the survivability that it grants. While pipe as a whole has fallen out of favour these days, I'd say it deserves a mention under the "situational" section if you are going a more team-oriented Mek build razor. Obviously if you buy a BKB (the "in" thing to do) then pipe isn't very good.

PPS: yango beat me to pipe.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
hacklebeast
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5090 Posts
September 10 2013 18:37 GMT
#5
pretty damn similar to how I play him

I tend to grab a club rather than vit booster because I am much more likely to go for hh/bkb rather than heart/vanguard (or just the belt if things really are't going well).
Protoss: Best, Paralyze, Jangbi, Nal_Ra || Terran: Oov, Boxer, Fantasy, Hiya|| Zerg: Yellow, Zero
TheSubtleArt
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada2527 Posts
September 10 2013 19:12 GMT
#6
Isn't Aghs one of the more common Razor items in competitive games recently? I've also seen Aghs + Refresher some times.
Dodge arrows
739
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Bearded Elder29904 Posts
September 10 2013 20:14 GMT
#7
Aghs/refresher core items.
WriterSalty oldboy that loves memes | One and only back-to-back Liquibet Winner
synapse
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
China13814 Posts
September 10 2013 20:33 GMT
#8
On September 11 2013 05:14 739 wrote:
Aghs/refresher core items.

well the refresher depends on whether you're #mlg420baller enough but aghs is actually insanely good because it lets you push like a madman while also giving you a bit of extra tankiness + damage in teamfights.
:)
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
September 10 2013 20:34 GMT
#9
I'd like to mention that Lesh's diabolic edict is hypothetically (although rarely in practice) higher DPS @ max level than razor aghs ult @max level, hits buildings much like razor ult and nobody is recommending a refresher to go with it.

Agh's refresher razor is kinda fun and great for knocking buildings over but not really recommendable as a "go-to" build.
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KOFgokuon
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States14910 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-10 21:38:02
September 10 2013 21:37 GMT
#10
You can't cast edict twice with refresher? At least I don't think so. I know for a fact that you can cast two EOTS and two plasma links with refresher at the same time which is why aghs refresher is awesome. Plus edict CD isn't that long
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
September 10 2013 21:41 GMT
#11
On September 11 2013 06:37 KOFgokuon wrote:
You can't cast edict twice with refresher? At least I don't think so. I know for a fact that you can cast two EOTS and two plasma links with refresher at the same time which is why aghs refresher is awesome. Plus edict CD isn't that long

You've never played WTF mode with lesh have you?

Before edict got a cast animation lesh was literally god-tier in that. Towers literally ceased existing as soon as you got near them. I'm assuming refresher works based on this.

That said, yes refresher is wayyyyy better on razor than it is on lesh. I'm just pointing out that razor aghs ulti isn't quite so special as people seem to think, and that refreshing it is probably not worth the 5.3K gold or w/e.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Mithhaike
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Singapore2759 Posts
September 11 2013 00:25 GMT
#12
Situational:-
Refresher needs a mention
Aghs do still work for razor
A casual cloak is wonderful for razor. That 500gold is a worthwhile investment.
Pipe can be built on razor if required

Overall good guide! Excellent work.
Mew Mew Pew Pew
Xxazn4lyfe51xX
Profile Joined October 2010
United States976 Posts
September 11 2013 04:25 GMT
#13
On September 11 2013 05:34 Sn0_Man wrote:
I'd like to mention that Lesh's diabolic edict is hypothetically (although rarely in practice) higher DPS @ max level than razor aghs ult @max level, hits buildings much like razor ult and nobody is recommending a refresher to go with it.

Agh's refresher razor is kinda fun and great for knocking buildings over but not really recommendable as a "go-to" build.



Somehow I feel that in the games where people get refresher with their aghs, the point of it becomes less about killing the towers and more about how hilariously fast you drop heroes that get caught by it.
Archeon
Profile Joined May 2011
3265 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-11 16:45:13
September 11 2013 16:23 GMT
#14
On September 11 2013 05:34 Sn0_Man wrote:
I'd like to mention that Lesh's diabolic edict is hypothetically (although rarely in practice) higher DPS @ max level than razor aghs ult @max level, hits buildings much like razor ult and nobody is recommending a refresher to go with it.

Agh's refresher razor is kinda fun and great for knocking buildings over but not really recommendable as a "go-to" build.

I'd like to mention that Lesh needs to be close to melee-range for edict, is squishy as hell, not as fast and overall very vulnerable as a result. Aghs+refresher razor is not, which makes the build a lot more valuable in situations other than base-race scenarios like ganks and teamfights. Razor needs a lot of survivability items to make edict good in e.g. teamfights, razor not.

Besides i absolutely dont see a reason not to get a refresher on lesh once he has heart and maybe shivas/ac.

The reason why people build aghs+refresher on him is that he lacks damage. Static link is not reliable for teamfights and just building him as a tank will leave him ignored, as he does little damage as long as he hasnt static link up for at least half of the duration. So you have to get bkb and some kind of damage and as most people dislike building him as a right clicker aghs is the obvious choice, as it gives about 400 hp and some armor as well and increases his mana-pool.
low gravity, yes-yes!
McTeazy
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada297 Posts
September 11 2013 16:32 GMT
#15
personally i copy the aui_2000 viper build: treads=>wand=>mek=>aghs then go for more traditional carry items depending on what the game calls for.

I think this build goes better with how you decide on phase boots: "razor wants to dominate early/mid" mek/aghs/wand are items for this, not heart bfly.
a person is smart, people are stupid
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
September 11 2013 16:36 GMT
#16
On September 12 2013 01:23 Blackfeather wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2013 05:34 Sn0_Man wrote:
I'd like to mention that Lesh's diabolic edict is hypothetically (although rarely in practice) higher DPS @ max level than razor aghs ult @max level, hits buildings much like razor ult and nobody is recommending a refresher to go with it.

Agh's refresher razor is kinda fun and great for knocking buildings over but not really recommendable as a "go-to" build.

I'd like to mention that Lesh needs to be close to melee-range for edict, is squishy as hell, not as fast and overall very vulnerable as a result. Aghs+refresher razor is not, which makes the build a lot more valuable in situations other than base-race scenarios like ganks and teamfights. Razor needs a lot of survivability items to make edict good in e.g. teamfights, razor not.

Besides i absolutely dont see a reason not to get a refresher on lesh once he has heart and maybe shivas/ac.

The reason why people build aghs+refresher on him is that he lacks damage. Static link is not reliable for teamfights and just building him as a tank will leave him ignored, as he does little damage as long as he hasnt static link up for at least half of the duration.

Well you don't fact check.

Razor ult and edict have the same range, lesh has 25 more base MS (yes I get that he ends up somewhat slower but lesh is by and large a fast hero), and lesh has 0.2 less strength gain. Meanwhile we are discussing a skill that you can get at level 7 vs a skill that you can get at level 16.

I'm merely pointing out that razor ult w/aghs is a lot worse (in an abstract sense) than people seem to think. It is still strong.
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Laserist
Profile Joined September 2011
Turkey4269 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-11 16:47:07
September 11 2013 16:45 GMT
#17
I am following the discussions but I couldn't recommend aghs-refresher build as a solid game plan for players try to understand/figure out how to play Razor. It has it's niche, correct, but not as solid as drums-bkb-heart etc..

Another thing is I am not convinced hood as a good item unless you play against 3-4 heavy nukers(lina-lion-zeus etc..) since most of the item consist of HP regen and provides little to no other use on Razor. Magic resist is good but, up until late-mid game, it can save barely a few hundred hp max from spells while a naked vitality booster gives you raw 250 hp also shields all kind of damage and half price. I may move it to optional but will let the readers for now.

I like pipe's barrier but there should be someone better to carry that items. There are several other heroes needs HP regen for stay in lane, jungle etc.. while Razor benefits merely from it. Situational item for situational lineups.

For circlet start, I need more justification to mention it as a solid starter.

Thanks for the feedback.
“Are you with the Cartel? Because you’re definitely an Angel.”
Archeon
Profile Joined May 2011
3265 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-11 16:49:04
September 11 2013 16:47 GMT
#18
On September 12 2013 01:36 Sn0_Man wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2013 01:23 Blackfeather wrote:
On September 11 2013 05:34 Sn0_Man wrote:
I'd like to mention that Lesh's diabolic edict is hypothetically (although rarely in practice) higher DPS @ max level than razor aghs ult @max level, hits buildings much like razor ult and nobody is recommending a refresher to go with it.

Agh's refresher razor is kinda fun and great for knocking buildings over but not really recommendable as a "go-to" build.

I'd like to mention that Lesh needs to be close to melee-range for edict, is squishy as hell, not as fast and overall very vulnerable as a result. Aghs+refresher razor is not, which makes the build a lot more valuable in situations other than base-race scenarios like ganks and teamfights. Razor needs a lot of survivability items to make edict good in e.g. teamfights, razor not.

Besides i absolutely dont see a reason not to get a refresher on lesh once he has heart and maybe shivas/ac.

The reason why people build aghs+refresher on him is that he lacks damage. Static link is not reliable for teamfights and just building him as a tank will leave him ignored, as he does little damage as long as he hasnt static link up for at least half of the duration.

Well you don't fact check.

Razor ult and edict have the same range, lesh has 25 more base MS (yes I get that he ends up somewhat slower but lesh is by and large a fast hero), and lesh has 0.2 less strength gain. Meanwhile we are discussing a skill that you can get at level 7 vs a skill that you can get at level 16.

I'm merely pointing out that razor ult w/aghs is a lot worse (in an abstract sense) than people seem to think. It is still strong.

Okay you got me there. Still unstable current makes razor a lot harder to kill. I am really surprised that edict has the same range though, doesnt feel that way maybe because of the faster ticks.
low gravity, yes-yes!
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-11 16:50:15
September 11 2013 16:49 GMT
#19
Thats the thing though, razor is a farm-priority hero but not a position 1 hero (due to his stat gain) much like mirana often is.

As such, he's very good for picking up utility items like mek/pipe that both help your team and let him achieve his goal of staying alive as long as possible (in order to drain their damage).

Yes, its not an every-game kind of item, but its very legit on him in a lot of situations.

E: Was @OP
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TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
September 11 2013 18:12 GMT
#20
On September 12 2013 01:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
Thats the thing though, razor is a farm-priority hero but not a position 1 hero (due to his stat gain) much like mirana often is.

As such, he's very good for picking up utility items like mek/pipe that both help your team and let him achieve his goal of staying alive as long as possible (in order to drain their damage).

This.

Additionally, many of those lineups want you to have magic resistance more than magic immunity. It seems nonsensical, but here's why: When you become magic immune, those spells that the enemy would have cast at you don't go to waste. They get cast at someone else. In some lineups, this is fine, because there's someone else in the lineup who can take those nukes. But it's also frequently that those nukes/disables going on the other 4 heroes on your team ISN'T better than you just taking the hit--especially since you typically itemize a lot of survivability, have two spell effects that remain active while you're stunned regardless, and have a passive that punishes people for nuking you.
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